By now Trump should have been constitutionally banned from any government office.

[Kablooie]

The 14th amendment says that after taking an oath, no one shall hold any US or state office if they "have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the US, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."

It is obvious that Trump did all of these things but there doesn't seem to be any way to apply the 14th.

Who judges whether he did these things?
The Congress? The president? SCOTUS? The Constitution doesn't say.

Sure Congress is investigating but it moves so slowly and it's power is limited so it's unlikely that we will get any decisions before the next election. Even if they reached a conclusion it would be contested by Republicans and the above problem of who decides would be argued interminably.
It would probably fall to SCOTUS ultimately and the Trump court would certainly declare him not guilty.

No there doesn't seem any way to apply the 14th to a president.
(Unless both houses were Republican and the president was a Democrat. He would probably be banned within a few months, evidence be damned.)

We have some real weaknesses in our governmental systems and Trump has been able to exploit all of them. As a result the future of our democracy and probably the country itself is balancing on the point of a pin.

If we survive 2024 and are not forced to live under a Trump dictatorship I hope someone will find ways to plug these gaping loopholes in our system. Our checks and balances are not checking and balancing as they were supposed to do.

[Zeitghost]

1. "Who judges whether he did these things?"

A jury.

[Busterscruggs]

22. How about

A national referendum? The numbers are on our side!

[Zeitghost]

23. There is no legal mechanism for that.

n/t

[Busterscruggs]

25. Have we ever had a former oval office

Resident behave like Trump has? Unusual circumstances require unusual solutions

[Zeitghost]

26. No

They require legal solutions. Any solution outside the Constitution would be illegal and makes us no better than him.

[Busterscruggs]

28. What solutions

Could you offer?

[Zeitghost]

29. For banning someone from office?

A conviction for insurrection. Possibly impeachment.

[FBaggins]

2. Does the constitution say "if Kablooie thinks he's guilty of insurrection"?

Who judges whether he did these things? The Congress? The president? SCOTUS? The Constitution doesn't say.

It does indeed say. Congress is empowered to define the crime of insurrection (and has). All you have to do is convict him of that and he cannot hold office.

Congress has the power (through legislation) to further clarify/define... but would have to do so by passing legislation that gets signed into law.

So... effectively... you're correct that there's no way to apply the 14th to Trump. We'll have to trust the people not to elect him again.

[onecaliberal]

8. 30 state houses are majority republicans.

They have ALL passed laws to give themselves the power to count the votes. That’s where we are.

[ShazzieB]

16. OMG, 30?

I didn't realize the number had risen that high. Yikes, that's scary!

[onecaliberal]

17. Yes.

[Zeitghost]

24. State Legislatures

Have always had that power. The Constitution doesn't even require a vote, the legislature could simply draw names from a hat or play rock-paper-scissors for their electoral votes.

[brooklynite]

3. Do you know who DOESN'T judge whether he did these things?

Bloggers who start with "It is obvious that Trump did all of these things".

You're entitled to your opinion, but determinations of the violation of law, up to and including Insurrection, are the responsibility of law enforcement agencies, who in turn don't issue indictments based on "It is obvious that Trump did all of these things". They build cases sufficient to achieve a conviction in Court, regardless of how long it takes.

[Hoyt]

4. Let's face it, if roughly half of voters elect someone

we are probably stuck with them.

[malaise]

5. I still think he will face consequences one way or another

but I love your OP. There are too many weaknesses and the process takes too long.

[oldsoftie]

13. My continued wish is business failure over jail.

Becoming a shell of his former business self is better punishment (IMO) because of a couple things; he cant be seen as a martyr, he personally cant STAND to be seen as a failure; and a decent amount of his followers would lose interest in a failure. Putting him in jail, while a hilarious picture, would energize his followers and make him a hero

[malaise]

21. I get your point but I want him in prison

I want to see several movies about his failures everywhere - let his goons see the criminal loser they apparently adore.

[Mr.Bill]

6. The real problem is the justice system in general.

Unless you think Trump never broke the law before 2016, the system failed. He probably should have been in jail a long time ago.

[Escurumbele]

7. I was just reading an interview of Mel Brooks, and there is a quote of his that explains all these..

"If you can reduce the enemy to an object of ridicule and laughter, you’ve won."
~~ Mel Brooks


Please, think about it...The problem we have with trump is that too many people are still taking about him seriously, even though he is a complete idiot, a mafioso? Yes, but an idiot nonetheless. The media, we at DU, and everywhere they continue to talk about him as this great force, and what we are all doing is making things more difficult for republicans to breaking the link between them and the thug.

Everyone should make fun of him, ridicule him, show how little power he has, continually talk about all his legal troubles and how 2022 will be the year he is made accountable for all his crimes, that he WILL go to jail along with many of his partners and probably a couple of his children, if not all of the three adult children as well as Jrs girlfriend, that classy girl.

So lets start reducing the buffoon to what he is, a joke, a buffoon, let us stop pretending that he has any power, because at the end of the day he is hanging on a thread, all republicans in office hate him, and his legal troubles will place him behind bars. That is what we should all be talking about.

And one last thing, by not reducing him to the joke that he already is, it does make it more difficult for those who control the law to act, it makes some of them afraid, but the moment they realize he is just a bad clown show, taking action will not only be easier but it will be a pleasure.

[oldsoftie]

14. Yes 1000 times!!! nt

[ShazzieB]

20. Mostly agree, withp one small quibble.

all republicans in office hate him

I would qualify this by replacing "all" with "most" or "many," because I really don't believe all of them do. It's hard to tell how many hate him for sure, because most Republicans are too afraid of him trashing their careers to say so, but I'm pretty sure it's not 100%. Not as long as there are people like Matt Gaetz, Mad Nazi Cawthorne, MTG, or Bang Bang Boebert in Congress. And there are probably even more of that ilk in statehouses and local governments, with more signing up to run all the time.

Other than this one detail, I agree whole-heartedly with your post.

[48656c6c6f20]

9. I'm still hoping for a

Massive MI to karma slap him.

[oldsoftie]

15. I really do hate felling that way but its noww in the back of my mind. nt

[bucolic_frolic]

10. 14th is a broad amendment

Last edited Sun Nov 28, 2021, 08:16 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't think it was written as a political determination. Somehow the Framers, and later those writing amendments, seemed to think Congress would at times act as a jury, but especially in our modern age, it acts politically. Or the other side has us believing acting like a jury is one side of a political coin. I suspect some powerful entity would need standing to sue under the 14th Amendment, but then you're in the courts which are, in some places, staffed with judges with a political leaning. This system protects power and precedent to a great extent. Amendments and laws are a framework. It takes power to enforce them. Nothing happens, no matter how clear the intent and reasoning and lofty the goal, if they remain only on paper.

[DENVERPOPS]

11. Bull !!!!!!!!!

He should be in Colorado's SuperMax for all his treasonous acts. And the other cells in Supermax should be filled with members of his family and administration including his entire cabinet. Then, they wouldn't be available to run for any political office......

They need to rot in their cell, hour by hour, day by day for the rest of their existence.
In supermax, you are locked in your soundproof cell almost 24/7. Two guards come and take you to an area for one half hour a day that has a shower and outside area about 15 x 15' with two story cement walls. They have no contact with any other prisoners. They only see a couple of guards. You are not allowed TV, radio, computer, internet, telephone, texting, emails, etc. All meals are shoved thru your cell door.

[monkeyman1]

12. seems like a fitting end to the " TFG " !

[yaesu]

18. with the amount of death and destruction the flushed turd caused he should be banned from

the country, period. There is no excuse for justice not being done.

[NullTuples]

19. Democrats in Congress missed another chance, too.

That 1973 FBI memo that Trump claimed said he could shoot someone on 5th avenue and get away with it - the backbone of his feeling justified in committing limitless crimes while in office and the basis of the GOP backing him in doing so?

Pages 3 & 4 also says that as soon as House impeachment proceedings have completed - whether found guilty or not - the House can proceed with criminal investigations and prosecution against a standing president.

[msfiddlestix]

27. ✔️ ✔️ ✔️ ✔️ ✔️

Not a hard call to make, that it appears this isn't being officially dealt with is beyond the pale of stupidity,

WTF is everyone waiting for? 2022? to arrive making it a lit late in the game?