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Wed Dec 1, 2021, 11:47 PM

 

The Rent is to damn high.

Just got off the phone with my friend who was in tears. Her rent is going up another $200 a month. Her rent is low for the area (1600) and she lives in a rural area but rents are up almost 30% in our town this year and they are not slowing down.

She is a single mother of two including a special needs child, but she makes too much for any government support. She looked around for another place to rent, but thier prices were even higher. In many cases, there is simply no room at the inn.

We talk about inflation, but there are two types of inflation. Homeowners have seen capital gains in the tens of thousands while their mortgage stays unchanged. Renters pay twice the average homeowner per month and have seen nothing but misery. It is a real divide.

Our area has a moratorium on building new apartments while the county catches up with schools and roads. Also, environmental groups are banning them as well as people concerned with the disappearing open spaces. So new housing of that type is not in the cards anytime soon. Meanwhile, the already built ones simply increase in price.

For the renter the inflation rate is not 6% it is closer to 25%. We need to keep that in mind.

43 replies, 2208 views

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Arrow 43 replies Author Time Post
Reply The Rent is to damn high. (Original post)
cinematicdiversions Dec 2021 OP
Haggard Celine Dec 2021 #1
cinematicdiversions Dec 2021 #4
raccoon Dec 2021 #28
Amishman Dec 2021 #42
madville Dec 2021 #14
Johnny2X2X Dec 2021 #25
cinematicdiversions Dec 2021 #40
Johnny2X2X Dec 2021 #41
brooklynite Dec 2021 #2
spooky3 Dec 2021 #6
cinematicdiversions Dec 2021 #24
Hugh_Lebowski Dec 2021 #3
womanofthehills Dec 2021 #23
hunter Dec 2021 #35
MichMan Dec 2021 #5
cinematicdiversions Dec 2021 #7
MichMan Dec 2021 #16
inthewind21 Dec 2021 #32
MichMan Dec 2021 #36
haele Dec 2021 #38
MichMan Dec 2021 #39
madville Dec 2021 #8
inthewind21 Dec 2021 #33
Sympthsical Dec 2021 #9
left-of-center2012 Dec 2021 #10
maxsolomon Dec 2021 #11
cinematicdiversions Dec 2021 #15
maxsolomon Dec 2021 #17
cinematicdiversions Dec 2021 #18
maxsolomon Dec 2021 #19
Cicada Dec 2021 #12
cinematicdiversions Dec 2021 #21
Amishman Dec 2021 #43
Celerity Dec 2021 #13
pecosbob Dec 2021 #20
Tomconroy Dec 2021 #22
gypsy11 Dec 2021 #26
MineralMan Dec 2021 #27
gypsy11 Dec 2021 #29
MineralMan Dec 2021 #30
gypsy11 Dec 2021 #31
MineralMan Dec 2021 #34
Initech Dec 2021 #37

Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:05 AM

1. That's why I bought a house a few years ago.

It was the best decision I ever made. My mortgage is a lot less than what most are paying for rent in this town, and I'm also building equity. I didn't buy for years because I always thought I'd be moving away one day. Well I finally decided that I need to prepare myself for the possibility that I might be living here until I die. Besides, if I do end up moving away, I can always sell the house. It was stupid of me to put it off for so long, but better late than never.

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Response to Haggard Celine (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:08 AM

4. This is why that weird Mortage vs Rennt arguement is so infuriating.

 

Your mortgage never really goes up all that much i at all. That may not seem a big deal any particular year, but ten or fifteen years later it is a godsend.

No one wants to be renting when they retire.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 11:11 AM

28. But a house must be maintained. And some maintenance jobs

Cost big money.

You can’t really compare a mortgage and rent. You are comparing apples and oranges.

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Response to raccoon (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 10:56 AM

42. Yup, upkeep eats a big chunk of that gap between rent and mortgage amounts

$10k for a new heat pump or $20k for a new roof, these types of inevitable big expenses narrow the difference in terms of the real cost of renting vs owning.

Is buying often the better way to go? Absolutely! But not because of the monthly expenses but because of the long term equity gain.

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Response to Haggard Celine (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:55 AM

14. Yeah, the mortgage, taxes, and insurance on my

2200 sq ft house on 6 acres is about the same as rent for a nice one bedroom apartment a few miles away in the city limits. Inflation will just make my debt owed worth less and less as time goes by.

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Response to Haggard Celine (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 10:16 AM

25. Home ownership is the only way most Americans build wealth

Equity is wealth, families can tap into that wealth to get through emergencies, and it sets people up for a better retirement.

And it also provides security. If you can't make you mortgage today, banks will bend over backwards to keep you in your house. And if you can't work something out, it sometimes takes 2 years to get you out of your home. There's just a built in buffer with home ownership that can keep people with a roof over their heads in hard times.

Landlords right now are gouging renters. There's a shortage of houses, and owners are taking advantage.

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Response to Johnny2X2X (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 10:25 AM

40. Homeownership is like an adult version of renting.

 

I can't tell you the number of friends that were shocked when their mortgage was not late on the third of the month. The mortgage company treats you like an adult while the landlord treats you like a child.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Reply #40)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 10:45 AM

41. Agree

It's not even considered late until after the 15th on most mortgages. And even then there's just like a $50 fee and it won't even affect your credit.

The banks are very interested in people staying in their houses because repossessing a house and then reselling it costs them a fortune. The system is set up to make that costly for banks to incentivize them towards keeping people in their homes.

I know a couple who lost their home, they worked with the bank to get back on plan for a year and a half, and then one lost another job and it became hopeless, it took another year and a half for the sheriff to finally show up to put them out. So they basically went almost 3 years with only making a few payments total, the last 18 months they made no payments. Instead, when they were both working again, they banked like $20K so when the time came they actually had a nest egg to rent a nice home and then work through their finances. Unfortunately, they were an exception, most people facing repossession don't save any money because they're truly in dire straights financially.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:08 AM

2. Your assessment suggests that homeowners have it easy...

Between taxes and mortgages, a lot of homeowners with investment properties are barely covering their expenses; exacerbated by eviction moratoriums for unpaid rents.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:17 AM

6. ...to say nothing of maintenance and upgrades. Roofs, toilets, appliances, etc. need

to be fixed or replaced at various times.

But renting or owning is not easy for anyone whose income is not keeping pace.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 10:09 AM

24. I am in no way referring to investment properties.

 

I am simply stating that the inflation rate for homeowners is considerably lower than that for renters.

The party as a whole need to recognize this when it talks about policies moving forward.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:08 AM

3. I think Global Capital is buying up US property and jacking the rent

It's one of the safest investments in the world, and every rich investor group is looking for safe investments.

In another 10-15 years I'd bet that corporations own >50% of the housing in the USA, and a LOT of it will be foreign.

I believe there is something MASSIVELY important going on in this arena, and nobody is keeping track, and nobody is talking about it. Gen X/Y people are selling their properties at good profits to global capitalists, and moving into their dead boomer parent's houses all over the country, or into apartments, with a bunch of money in the bank so they don't care that much that rent is high. They have jobs.

Or they stay where they are, and sell their dead parent's houses to the global capitalists.

There's a reason there's now SO MANY companies ready to give you CASH for your home, and let you stay in the house for 6 months or more ... I get calls to sell my place ALL THE TIME. The ads for these companies are on TV ALL THE TIME, at least where I am. This is not a coincidence.

Large investment conglomerates want to buy up as much as they can, and then they'll collude to jack rents, and fuck everyone over (but not in a way anyone can do anything about, legally, cause it's MURKA and PROFITS are KING!!!11!)

MHO

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Response to Hugh_Lebowski (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 02:13 AM

23. Agree - it's happening in Albuquerque for sure

My daughter and another couple (relatives) got notices that their apartment complexes were sold and their rents are going up over $100. They are all saving to buy houses, but the house prices have recently sky rocketed. People now need to hook up with others to buy or rent. My grand kids can not afford to rent a place alone. My grandson has three roommates and my grand daughter has one and her complex just sold. My daughter is just going to move in with her boyfriend and the couple just rented a house but had to ask a relative to move into one of the bedrooms so they could afford it.

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Response to Hugh_Lebowski (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:03 PM

35. Looks that way to me as well.

Ironically, in the long run, these investors are making the places they suck the money out of less secure.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:16 AM

5. Capital gains in housing mean nothing until you sell, other than higher property taxes

How about homeowners who have been living in the same house for decades, yet see their property taxes continue to rise every year ?

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Response to MichMan (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:19 AM

7. I don't know about your neck of the woods but where I am the increases are capped at 3%

 

Save our homes plus homestead or some such. Property taxes and insurance raise much, much slower around here than rent does even in a normal year.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 01:09 AM

16. 3 % a year compounded for 25 years is still over a 100% increase

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Response to MichMan (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 11:46 AM

32. Not all states

Jack up property taxes every year. In California, they only adjust when the property is sold or improvements are done such as an addition, a solar roof or any "improvement"

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Response to inthewind21 (Reply #32)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 01:44 PM

36. So property taxes are frozen in perpetuity as long as you live there?

I've heard of states where the amount of tax increases are capped at inflation or some other amount, but didn't know that they never go up.

If someone bought a house in San Francisco for $50,000 in 1974 that is now worth well over a million, they pay the same exact amount of property taxes in 2021 that they did the day they first moved in? Do people that inherit homes from their parents still get to pay the original taxes?

That is a sweet deal and would make one be very hesitant to ever sell and move.

Ours are allowed to go up something like 5% a year. I would love to only pay the property taxes from the day we moved in 30 yrs ago.

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Response to MichMan (Reply #36)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 02:12 PM

38. They do change if you ask for a re-assessment.

I know someone with a 2 be/1ba 1930' bungalow on a double city lot who decided to sell the "second backyard/victory garden" plot, reducing his 2/3 acre lot to 1/3 acre lot so he could have capital to make improvements. Since he bought as is on an estate auction back in 2000, he is actually reducing his property tax by losing half his property when he reassess after the sale, but before he starts the improvements (adding solar, expanding the garage, adding a second bath and third bedroom).
His property taxes dropped by half because he didn't make improvements, someone else gets land with the alley side entrance to plop a manufactured house on, and he has six months to work off the capital gains from the sale of the land fixing up his house.
Of course, he had to time everything so he didn't take an income tax hit, but he made out pretty well for a shipyard welder with a growing family.

The person who buys his house will have to pay the property tax increase.

Haele

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Response to inthewind21 (Reply #32)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 02:28 PM

39. According to what I could find about Prop 13, it isn't zero; they can go up 2 % a year for inflation

The proposition decreased property taxes by assessing values at their 1976 value and restricted annual increases of assessed value to an inflation factor, not to exceed 2% per year. It prohibits reassessment of a new base year value except in cases of (a) change in ownership, or (b) completion of new construction. These rules apply equally to all real estate, residential and commercial—whether owned by individuals or corporations.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:21 AM

8. My son's rent in Jacksonville FL went up 25%

Went from $1100 to $1400 in one increase so 25% was right on. Inflation is part of it but I also think apartments are taking advantage of the rental housing shortage and trying to recoup some lost revenue they didn’t get last year when evictions weren’t allowed.

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Response to madville (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 11:48 AM

33. They are taking advantage

Of the fact that no one can afford to buy a house right now. Houses that were purchased for 400K in 2020 are being sold now for 700-800K.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:31 AM

9. That's why we keep our rent low

We have five bedrooms and use two (master and a home office). We currently have one tenant who is a friend of a friend who was facing homelessness. He works at the local Safeway down the street, so we charge $750 for a ground floor room that has an en suite bathroom/shower and a side entrance through the garage. He basically never has to see us.

We've been discussing renting out another of the bedrooms. It also has an en suite bathroom/shower. Maybe $1,000, as it's bigger and more privacy.

We don't need to rent out. Just like paying the house off, and it allows both of us to put more of our own money into our retirement.

We're in the Bay Area, so it's nice to give someone at least a little relief. Tiny one bedrooms start at $2,000 in my area. It's totally ridiculous. If it was just my partner and I, and we split the mortgage, I would be paying less than that for my entire house.

Companies and landlords are just being predatory in many cases, because they know they can get tech money for things.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:37 AM

10. There is a lot of apartment flipping going on

Companies buy apartment complexes, do a little renovation, and jack up the prices before reselling to a new owner.
It is happening a lot here in Albuquerque.

The complex I just moved from after living there 6 years had five different owners in the time I live there.
Each time it was sold my rent went up.
I moved 4 months ago because they wanted to raise my rent $100 a month.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:51 AM

11. Where do you live that there is a moratorium on new multifamily housing?

I'm an architect working with affordable housing developers. I find these 2 statements simply stunning and a little hard to believe:

1.
Our area has a moratorium on building new apartments while the county catches up with schools and roads.

2.
environmental groups are banning them as well as people concerned with the disappearing open spaces.


Can you tell me where this is? Do you have any links to stories about the moratorium, or which environmental groups are opposing affordable housing?


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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:59 AM

15. Here you go. Plenty o links. There is some serious cross pollination between rural and enivro orgs

 

https://www.tampabay.com/news/pasco/2021/09/28/pascos-moratorium-on-apartments-extended-another-six-months/

Pasco’s moratorium on apartments extended another six months

County planners need more time to complete an inventory of already-approved apartment projects.

NEW PORT RICHEY — Determining just how many apartment units Pasco County has approved for the Wesley Chapel area has turned out to be more time consuming that originally thought.

Because of that, Pasco county commissioners on Tuesday unanimously approved a six-month extension of their moratorium on new land-use change applications for multi-family projects. The moratorium is now set to expire on April 1 2022.



https://www.keeppascobeautiful.org/

https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/keep-it-rural
'
https://www.facebook.com/groups/keepitrural/

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 01:17 AM

17. Crimony.

Greater Tampa would consider it Socialism, but the Puget Sound region has a policy, for 3 decades now, called the "Growth Management Act".

https://mrsc.org/Home/Explore-Topics/Planning/General-Planning-and-Growth-Management/Comprehensive-Planning-Growth-Management.aspx

It's the 4 most urbanized counties agreeing to preserve rural land from development by focusing it in already urbanized areas. they do it by creating credits that rural property owners can sell and urban developers can purchase to build beyond the base zoning density.

Re the moratorium: it's on changes to land use - sounds like new applications would be fine if the land is already zoned for multi-family?

Sorry about your friend - $2,400/year is harsh. The market is merciless.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 01:26 AM

18. I am actually pleasantly surprised they are taking a good hard look at growth.

 

But the other side of that coin is less housing being developed.

There is a housing shortage. Unfortunately, raising prices is the best tool to encourage people to move to other less desirable areas of the country.

There is no simple easy answer.

My town, for example, banned and closed down all weekly motels. It certainly makes the area nicer, but it also eliminates housing for the most desperate.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 01:32 AM

19. pushing the crisis out of sight.

seattle and other cities is where the desperate wind up, in motorhomes, in cars, in tents, in shelters, in vestibules. and then we get the blame for being the last resort.

of course, the weekly rentals were probably becoming drug nuisances. the opiate crisis goes hand in hand with the housing crisis.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:53 AM

12. Exclusionary zoning is our number one enemy

Zoning which prohibits more than one residence, and requires a large minimum lot size, causes incredible harm. High residential prices could be fixed if multiple units and/or small lots were permitted. But it is almost impossible to get votes to change such zoning. Those in “nice” areas do not want apartments and benefit from high values of their homes. Term limits actually helps change because a legislator who can’t run for re-election has less to fear from angry constituents.

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Response to Cicada (Reply #12)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 01:47 AM

21. The problem is you need to build new schools, roads, parks , bike lanes, etc

 

For many communities Doubling their population without doubling their tax base would but a serious burden on thier finances. Not to mention all the need for additional commercial space and municipal buildings that have to go somewhere.

Curbing growth with the interests of both the environment and the current residences is going to be a hard habit to break for most areas.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 11:07 AM

43. Yup, added traffic is a huge concern with every new development around here

Road structure is just not meant for the higher volume, so it is a very legitimate concern. Widening or expanding roads is extremely difficult as there are a lot of old homes built close to the roads.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:55 AM

13. These crazy rent hikes being talked about on this thread are illegal here in Sweden and many other

EU nations.

The US economic system is all about wealth extraction, pushing it from the broad bottom up to top of the pyramidion, in large part via the health care, tertiary education, and real estate (emphasis on rentals) sectors, but hardly limited to just those extractive tools.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 01:35 AM

20. My rent went up 22% last month

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 01:53 AM

22. The wisdom of Jimmy McMillan!

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 10:50 AM

26. Short term rentals

Are all the rage now. Investors are buying up all the entry level housing stock, rehabbing them and then turn them into mini hotels. In my area, a popular costal city for vacations- I’ve e seen a HUGE rise in full time Airbnb’s in residential housing in the last few years. The Airbnb affect is real.

I own my house and we just had property assessments, the city jacked up my property value by 40k so my taxes will increase by about 1k a year. As for rentals- a lot of landlords are seeing they can make more money with short term vacation rentals rather than long term rentals, particularly the investor types. They also get around any type of regulation that a traditional hotel needs to adhere to and will use LLCs as a way to shield their personal wealth from any exposure to liability. They pass the profit through the LLC but keep any liability on the LLC.

People are being forced out of their houses (rents getting jacked up to astronomical rates that they can’t pay, when they have to move because of that, the investor landlord converts the place into a short term rental) This puts pressure on all prices, both rents AND purchases. Large corporations are getting in on this action now as well- converting entire buildings/neighborhoods into short term vacation rentals. Blackstone and Zillow come to mind immediately.

Add to the mix that many house flippers are no longer rehabbing and flipping the houses- instead they’re rehabbing and opening hotels with them, effectively removing them from housing stock for families to actually live in.

Don’t even get me started on what this does to local communities.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 11:03 AM

27. It is. A lot of investment in real estate is going on, and

driving single-family home prices up way too quickly. Investors, large and small, are buying up houses, in the belief that prices will continue going up. So, they're renting those houses out, based on the price they had to pay for them and the cost of servicing the mortgages they got to pay for them.

As single-family home rents rise, owners of apartment buildings think they should raise rents, too.

However, the rapid increase in the price of residential real estate may not continue at the pace it has. My wife and I moved this year, and paid a premium price for the 2 bedroom townhome we bought. We then fixed up our previous home with a new roof, fresh interior paint, new flooring, and other stuff and put it on the market.

Both places are near the bottom of the market in the Twin Cities area in Minnesota. We were expecting our previous home to sell at an increased price from its previous valuation. It did not. It was not in the right neighborhood, apparently, and prices in that neighborhood had not increased as much as in our new neighborhood.

We didn't take a loss on the house, which we bought in 2004, but we also didn't make much of a profit on it, either. That's especially true after we spend the money fixing it up for a sale. It wasn't a big deal for us, and our new house and the old one had roughly the same value. It was a wash, really.

However, the person who bought our previous house is a real estate investor and will be renting it out. The problem for him is that rentals in the neighborhood where it is are not priced as high as he will need to get to service his mortgage. He's spending more money on the house, too, getting it ready to rent with a new AC system and new siding and some new windows. The reality is that he will not be able to find a renter for rent that will cover his mortgage costs. Of that I'm certain.

Not my problem, of course, but real estate investors are about to discover that what they can buy in today's market cannot support the rents they need to get to service the mortgages. That will tend to pull prices back down a bit.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 11:21 AM

29. They can if they set them up as short term rentals.

Depending on the area, they can make double or triple per month on what they would make for a normal long term rental. They’re not subject to any tenant laws either, under 30 days there are no protections for renters (think of the eviction moratoriums enacted because of the pandemic- under 30 days that doesn’t apply) AND they get around safety regulations that actual hotels need to follow (and pay for).

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Response to gypsy11 (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 11:25 AM

30. That only works if the property is in a tourist area, frankly.

It wouldn't work with our previous house, which is located in a diverse urban neighborhood in a city with no real tourism. Short-term renters coming to town wouldn't like the neighborhood, which is on the edge of St. Paul, and far from that city's attractions, such as they are.

Besides, St. Paul has some pretty strict ordinances regarding B&B-style rentals. There are many hoops you have to jump through to get the required rental license.

That short-term rental trick only works in some places.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #30)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 11:36 AM

31. I agree

But even if it’s only exploding in tourist type areas, it still puts pressure on housing prices across the board. I’ve also noticed the marketing tactic the short term rental platforms are pushing in the last few months is leaning towards “work anywhere” and “live the nomad type lifestyle”.

Obviously, this is a personal pet peeve of mine. I think it’s a fairly big problem and growing. In my opinion it will only put more pressure on affordable housing everywhere in the long run. People need a roof and you shouldn’t have to hand over your first born to get that. Shelter is a basic human need.

Disclaimer- I take no issue on the owner occupied person renting out a room in their house this way to help pay the mortgage- it’s the investors amassing housing stock for pure profit that has me upset.

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Response to gypsy11 (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 11:55 AM

34. Well, home prices are up, for sure. This year was very unusual

in that way. There was a lot of pent-up demand due to COVID-19, I think. At least that's true in the Twin Cities metro area where I live. People had put off moving and finally did it. There were few houses on the market, so prices went up. When my wife and I were looking for houses, even near the bottom of the market, multiple offers well over the asking price were happening all over the place. We had to make an offer that was 12% over the asking price to get the townhome we bought. Just about every home that was for sale had multiple offers on the first day the listing was on the market, including the one we bought. Our offer was the best one the seller got, so we got the place.

Well, that stimulated a lot of people to put their properties on the market and make their move. So, suddenly, the market changed, and had way more homes for sale than it had previously. Many people, like my wife and I, were looking to downsize and shift our living style, so the townhome and condo market kept rising to accommodate people like us.

On the other hand, older single-family homes in urban neighborhoods were not what people were looking for so much, so our previous house lingered on the market. Worse, we had trouble finding contractors to do the work that was needed, which caused further delays. We bought our new house in May, and didn't get our previous one listed until August, since it needed a new roof and interior painting, along with some other work. By the time it hit the market, prices had stopped rising in neighborhoods like ours, at least for entry-level single-family homes. We had to relist at a lower price. It finally sold, but the market had cooled off by then.

Prices fluctuated downward in a 10-15% range in the time period between may and September, which was when our previous home sold. Real estate is weird that way. Trends shift quickly. Now, more expensive homes in desirable areas did not experience that fluctuation, but so-called starter homes did.

It was interesting. Like I said, it was really a wash in price between our old place and our new one. Fortunately, all that is done with now.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Thu Dec 2, 2021, 01:45 PM

37. And the pay is too damn low!

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