One small consolation about the killer's parents going on the lam is that when they are found,

[RockRaven]

and they WILL be found, they are now more likely not to get pretrial release.

Nothing says flight risk like having already fled. Even if they were to attempt to propose/concede a crippling of their flight abilities/resources, they've already demonstrated the desire/intent by doing it once.

What kind of judge is gonna give them bail now? (answer: an asshole, so we cannot rule it out, but still...)

[hlthe2b]

1. Not to mention that they will very likely face FEDERAL charges (if they crossed state lines)

Every minute and every mile gets them in more trouble.

[PTWB]

40. What federal charge?

[hlthe2b]

50. 18 U.S. Code § 1073 - Flight to avoid prosecution or giving testimony

If an individual is being sought by local police for committing a crime, what assistance can the FBI render to locate the fugitive?

A “stop” will be placed against the fugitive’s fingerprints in the FBI’s Criminal Justice Information Services Division. Local police will be notified immediately upon the receipt of any additional fingerprints of the fugitive. The fugitive’s name and identifying data also will be entered into the National Crime Information Center, a computerized database that is accessible to law enforcement agencies nationwide. Any agency that inquires about this individual will be informed of his or her fugitive status. In addition, the FBI may obtain a federal arrest warrant and attempt to locate an individual who flees prosecution or confinement if there is reason to believe the person has traveled across a state line or left the country.






LII U.S. Code Title 18 PART I CHAPTER 49 § 1073

18 U.S. Code § 1073 - Flight to avoid prosecution or giving testi­mony



Whoever moves or travels in interstate or foreign commerce with intent either (1) to avoid prosecution, or custody or confinement after conviction, under the laws of the place from which he flees, for a crime, or an attempt to commit a crime, punishable by death or which is a felony under the laws of the place from which the fugitive flees, or (2) to avoid giving testimony in any criminal proceedings in such place in which the commission of an offense punishable by death or which is a felony under the laws of such place, is charged, or (3) to avoid service of, or contempt proceedings for alleged disobedience of, lawful process requiring attendance and the giving of testimony or the production of documentary evidence before an agency of a State empowered by the law of such State to conduct investigations of alleged criminal activities, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. For the purposes of clause (3) of this paragraph, the term “State” includes a State of the United States, the District of Columbia, and any commonwealth, territory, or possession of the United States.

[PTWB]

51. I don't see how they statute is applicable. Did you cite the correct one?

[hlthe2b]

56. I said IF they had crossed state lines. Evading a valid state arrest warrant across state lines

becomes a Federal crime because of the interstate jurisdictions crossed. Likewise had they crossed into Canada. That should be easy to understand and yes the statute is right.

[PTWB]

57. You said it was "very likely" that they'd be charged federally.

But the statute you linked is very rarely enforced. That’s why I thought you linked the wrong one.

[hlthe2b]

58. Citing Frank Figliuzzi on Joy Reid last night. So argue with a 25+ year FBI veteran.

and no, the FBI/US Marshalls DO routinely use this to apprehend state-charged potential felons who cross state lines. Do you think that all one has to do is flee across the border if you are charged within your state and nothing happens? Really? And once Federal resources are used, do you think the USAG just looks the other way?

[PTWB]

59. LOL

Where are you getting this stuff? Are you seriously under the impression that the only way to prosecute a wanted person who crosses state lines is to have the Feds arrest and charge them?

That just isn’t how it works. I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion.

If you commit a felony in Michigan they’ll put out a warrant for you and the authorities in whatever state you fled to will arrest you for that warrant. Once you’re arrested, Michigan will extradite you back to face trial. The Federal government’s involvement is not required and, in fact, it’s involvement in the process is incredibly rare.

Remember, your original post did not say that the federal government could charge these folks. You said that it is very likely that the federal government would charge these folks. The hyperbole doesn’t help.

[hlthe2b]

60. That is NOT what I said and I don't get your problem but I'm done with your misstating

and ridiculous confrontational strawmen arguments. My week is spent arguing with COVID-deniers so I'm accustomed to such ridiculous behavior, but I won't waste time with similar tactics here. Maybe spend some time researching issues rather than just misstating others' comments for the sake of creating such strawmen. It would be far more productive. I welcome you to my ignore list. Enjoy whatever final comment you wish to make. I will not be reading it, but I wish you well.

[PTWB]

61. That's exactly what you said.

I’m not surprised you’re choosing to abandon the discussion instead of trying to defend your statement because it was indefensible.

[PTWB]

62. Alright brother, I've just got to respond once more.

I just had to get the exact numbers for folks charge with violating the statute you listed. The one you said these folks would “very likely” be charged with violating if they crossed state lines. The one you doubled down on and said that the Feds “do routinely use” (because some talking head said it on TV??) despite me having already admonished you that the statute is very rarely used.

Well, my friend, the numbers are not on your side.

In 2018, the most recent year for which the numbers are available, the number of fugitives charged with violating 18 U.S. Code § 1073 was… wait for it… drum roll… ONE! ONE PERSON!

😂😂😂

[Kingofalldems]

2. Kick this one.

[Crepuscular]

3. ...

I suspect that they are headed to Northern Michigan. She went to college in Traverse City, so would know the area and they would blend right in with a lot of the populations of the small towns up here.

[BlackSkimmer]

4. I'm thinking Florida.

But who knows.

Hard to get inside the head of a dumbass.

[Crepuscular]

5. ...

Could be, his mom lives in Florida but it's a long way to go from Michigan, especially taking back roads. I would think they would head somewhere closer to home, where they could hole up and wait until the media attention fades a bit. As I said, there are a lot of areas in Northern Michigan where they would blend right in.

[BlackSkimmer]

10. I'm hoping to wake up and find they're in custody.

What a mess.

[Irish_Dem]

34. They used to live in Florida, so yes that is a good possibility.

Criminals on the lam go to familiar places and where there are people to help them.

But I assume the FBI has a tap on the mother's phone and home under surveillance.

[monkeyman1]

37. classic likeness-" TFG" ??

[Irish_Dem]

7. Small Wisconsin and Michigan towns are the worst to hide in.

Everybody knows everybody else. Outsiders stick out.

Of course if it is a tourist town and they change their appearance, they might get away with it for a couple of weeks.

They will have to get a different car and ditch their phones and credit cards.
Maybe break into empty summer cabins.
If they have guns they can live off the land, and not go into town.
Also, I would split up, everyone is looking for a couple.

Someone else here on DU suggested there are Maga and NRA safe houses, underground railroad for gun criminals.
But anyone helping this is going to have charges pressed against them I would think.
The prosecutor is not playing around.

[Crepuscular]

9. ...

There are a lot of rural areas where you can stay pretty anonymous, especially this time of year. Break into a summer cottage in an area where there are few year round residents, use it as a base and then lay low. Assuming they have a vehicle that no one is looking for, they could have very little contact with anyone. Short drive into a large population hub, pick up fast food wearing a hat and shades and no one is likely to notice them or pick up groceries wearing a hoody, mask and some reading glasses and nobody will look twice. In Michigan, this time of year, those rural areas get a ton of transients, snowmobilers, skiiers,deer hunters,etc, so locals would not think much of someone not being local. Especially if they wear a Maga hat. They would eventually get caught but it could take awhile.

[Irish_Dem]

13. Maybe, maybe not. My mother's family lives up in northern very rural Wisconsin.

I spent most summers up there as a kid. Her family are farmers, hunters and trappers, and they are quite savvy about what is going on in the area. These folks are out on the land most of the year for one reason or another. They know every person, and every bear for many miles around. I am not kidding you. Every bear.

Yes I agree, I thought of them breaking into empty summer cabins. But it is risky. People come up to their cabins to snowmobile, ice fish and have deer camp. Word would get around pretty quickly if there were a series of cabin break-ins.
And if someone is using the deer blinds, etc.

The other problem is going to be heating the cabins, many of cabins will need wood for heat, and most summer residents won't have put up enough wood for the winter. I guess they can cut some. Also they will need supplies and have to go into the small town store which is very risky.

Of course my cousins could live off the land, but these idiots probably can't do that.

If they had some friends or family up there, could live in the basement, barn, attic, that might work.
But that is risky, I assume there will be a reward for capture, and severe consequences for helping this couple.

Yes I think you are right. They might do better in a more touristy area near a large population center. I highly advise them to stay away from the very rural areas. The farmers, trappers, hunters will have them for lunch if there is a reward.

[Crepuscular]

15. ...

There are enough meth heads in these rural areas that they could probably find someone who would let them stay out of sight in a run-down motorhome ,parked in a pole barn for $100 a week, pretty easily. The area where she went to college is a huge tourist area but 30 miles out of town you can be in some very rural, economically depressed areas where cash would buy a lot of ignoring. Now if some kind of reward gets offered, then it's a whole new ball game!

[Irish_Dem]

25. I like this idea, but yes the reward is the problem.

And I don't think this couple is smart enough to pull off this plan.
They would have to blend in as transient meth heads.
And yes the meth heads would sell them out in 24 hours if a reward was on offer.

Also this couple only has $4K, won't last long, and once the money is gone, the methies will toss them out.

They could hide in some out buildings, barns, etc for free. But I don't think this couple could manage it for long.
And once is starts snowing, residents, mail delivery, etc will notice footprints in the snow where there should not be footprints.

I don't know, maybe stealing a car, doing a complete appearance change and going south is a better option.
Head for Mexico?

[Irish_Dem]

16. Also: They will have to get a new vehicle, everyone is going to be looking for their car.

If the FBI is called in, they have very good facial recognition software that can take into account sunglasses, hat, changes in appearance. They also have experts in video body language, it was used to capture the Boston Marathon murderers in the huge crowd of people, and it has improved a great deal since then.

If the FBI is called in, I assume they are at least as smart as you and I are, so since we are thinking northern Michigan, I would assume the FBI is too.

I would be surprised if this couple is smart enough to elude the law for very long on their own. They would have to have some help.

[Crepuscular]

19. ...

I agree that these morons will not be able to run for very long. If they are still driving the car that was noted by the prosecutor, they will be toast pretty quickly. I'd bet that they will be in custody by the end of Tomorrow.

[Irish_Dem]

28. How many people could come up with a good spur of the moment escape plan?

And elude state and federal authorities for any period of time.

This couple has limited intellectual and financial resources along with zero productive imagination, so it doesn't look good for them.

Yes if they are indeed still driving their own vehicle as noted by authorities, then they are toast for sure.
I cannot believe that they could be so stupid not to switch out their car.

[LeftInTX]

48. Depends on how far north.

In Wisconsin, I would draw a line around Rhinelander.

Further south, it's more small towns and stuff like that. You can blend in better there.

But way up north, people notice cuz there's nothing there.

[Irish_Dem]

52. Yes one area is just above your line.

Another area is a bit south.

[relayerbob]

27. Not to be too much of a snark

But this entire sub-thread assumes they have something more than shit for brains.

[Irish_Dem]

33. We're trying to dumb down our thought processes, but it is hard to get to Magat level.

[relayerbob]

36. Very true

We'd need to drink some bleach and/or ivermectin

[FelineOverlord]

6. $4000

They took $4000 out of the ATM today. How far will it get them?

[Irish_Dem]

8. Won't last long.

They will have to pay cash for everything.

They are going to need a different car.

Lodgings, food.
Would be better to break into empty summer cabins and hope owners don't come up for snowmobiling or ice fishing.

Change their appearance and clothing. Video cams are everywhere, gas stations, stores, some intersections.
Constantly move location. Keep changing cars.
Maybe new phones, but I wouldn't risk it.

4K won't last long.

Somewhat ironic that this pair thought they were real outlaws, thought they could get away with anything.
But I don't see them smart enough to elude a concerted search for them.

[BlackSkimmer]

11. Yeah, that amount of money won't last them long.

What idiots, I mean what could they even be thinking?

[Captain Zero]

22. They need to ditch their Michigan plates.

Wherever they went. Steal some from another state.

[Irish_Dem]

29. I would think they would have to ditch their car too.

A plate change only could work, maybe.

[Deuxcents]

12. They are compounding the pain

Of the other families having to bury their children. No mercy

[tenderfoot]

14. Families that go to prison together stay together

eom

[ChoppinBroccoli]

17. It Also Undermines Their Defense (Whatever That Will Be)

Whatever their defense theory is going to be, they can't paint themselves as "heroes of the little guy" who are being unjustly persecuted by the heavy hand of the State. The first question the jury will want to know is, if you believed you were innocent and/or in the right, why did you flee?

[Walleye]

20. Yep. Flight is considered an admission of guilt

[Irish_Dem]

30. They will claim they feared for their lives. And were victims of a politcal witch hunt.

These people are looking more and more like sociopaths who usually blame others and claim victim status.
As a way to deflect from their crimes.

[bullwinkle428]

18. The last manhunt for two people at this high-profile a level was for

the Tsarnaev brothers (Boston Marathon bombers).

Would be quite a pity if they came to the same end.

[Progressive Jones]

21. As long as no LEOs are harmed, I don't care how they bring this trash down. nt

[Captain Zero]

23. I can see them going down in a gunfight

Some way or another.

[roamer65]

26. If the FBI kills them, it would save taxpayers money.

🤞🤞🤞

[Irish_Dem]

32. I wonder if they have guns with them?

Jesus this could get ugly.

[Irish_Dem]

31. Ending up in a boat being shot almost to death by Boston's Finest.

With one brother already dead.

[LeftInTX]

49. No! Remember Brian Laundrie in September???

[H2O Man]

24. Recommended.

Thank you.

[moondust]

35. Up to $10,000 reward now.

Per Brian Williams and Don Lemon.

[NH Ethylene]

38. I can't imagine taking off like that when your own child needs you more than ever.

Their son is behind bars facing the worst disaster of his life. If I were his parent my heart would be breaking for him and I would be doubled over in shame about my failure as a parent.

But this boy's parents are more worried about their own hides than what is happening to their 15-year-old son. It's disgusting.

[crickets]

39. This. Their behavior is beyond reprehensible. nt

[EndlessWire]

42. You know

that when they left, they were not fugitives. They were charged AFTER they left. That's the point of consulting defense attorneys. That's why celebrities facing charges run swiftly to rehab, because it looks good. That's probably why the prosecutor so quickly filed charges without waiting to see if they would show up. Made them into fugitives.

Now, of course everyone assumes they are running away. I do, too. But, I think it is technically something to be aware of, that when they split, they were NOT fugitives. And, they haven't contacted the attorneys, so who knows what they are aware of? The attorneys probably advised them that they could be charged, before they were. That is the duty of the attorney.

I dunno. They haven't much chance of not ending up in jail, one way or another. They weren't going to get bail, anyway. Sure, they'll be caught. Unless they are already beyond reach. I don't think they are so stupid. If they were going to return, they might have had second thoughts after the prosecutor said she would make an example of them. Sound like a fair trial to you? They weren't fugitives until the prosecutor announced charges. They had every right to leave.

[crickets]

44. I don't really feel any sympathy for them. Why leave your child in this situation - ever?

Any attorney with sense would have counseled them that charges might occur and they should not leave town. There's no way to argue that they are acting responsibly or in innocent ignorance. Even if they didn't know they were going to be charged, it's highly likely that they've known for hours now that they have been charged and are wanted. A phone call, one phone call could clear things up.

The prosecutor doesn't need to time the charges for the convenience of the people being charged. There's no "fair trial" involved here. The trial will not occur for a long time, if ever. The details for any additional charges re fleeing will be worked out later as well. However anyone wants to slice it, they skipped town, deserted their child, and are now evading capture. Any negative public perception is all on them -- no one else but them.

[EndlessWire]

46. I don't feel sympathy for the kid.

The attorneys probably told them everything they needed to know, but not what to do. And, I am not arguing that they are acting responsibly. They are not obliged to make phone calls. Since it is all over the news, they also probably know that they are going to made examples of, which wouldn't sound like a fair trial to me, either.

As far as I can see, the kid has put his parents in prison with him. I have no sympathy for him. You can't kill 4 innocent people and expect to be supported. If the parents are scared, I can understand that. THEY didn't pull the trigger. But, they are going to jail, anyway. Quite frankly, I would still be in the anger stage of grief. I'd be angry with him, not at all sympathetic for whatever angst he has right now. Look what he's done to his own family.

It's one thing to say that the prosecutor doesn't have to time it--but, she did, didn't she? It's the only way she could start the process to catch them, once they left. Otherwise, she had no grounds without a warrant. And, she had to beat them to the border. So, yeah, there's a process.

If I were already in another country, I wouldn't come back, either. Just being honest here.

[crickets]

47. Sounds like the prosecutor did screw up.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/12/03/oakland-county-sheriffs-blasts-prosecutor-parents/8862325002/

"In my entire 44-year career, I have never, ever seen a prosecutor announce charges in a major case without the suspect being in custody first," Oakland Undersheriff Mike McCabe told the Free Press.

"We don't let people turn themselves in," he said. "When a warrant is authorized by a judge, we go and get them."

On further reading, that was handled badly.

It still doesn't excuse them leaving town.

I don't know what to think about Ethan. He did a horrible thing and ended the lives of innocent classmates. He'll have to pay for that one way or another, though I hope a psych eval is involved. So many red flags beforehand were ignored or deferred, all the way up to the school meeting hours before the shooting. It's a mess. His parents didn't pull the trigger, but they did buy him a gun and left it unsecured. Any anger they may feel should be partly aimed at themselves for that.

[NH Ethylene]

54. I don't either but normal parents would (I think!).

When your beloved child - who you would die to protect - just destroyed his entire future in two short minutes and is sitting in an adult jail cell all alone, wishing he was dead, and the entire world despises him, you should be there in whatever way you can be.

[NH Ethylene]

53. You don't think they would have gotten bail?

If all was fair (and there is an indication the prosecutor is pretty aggressive with this case, so all may not be fair) and they had no history, I would have expected they would have been allowed bail. Maybe not though. Passions are high and that tips the scales.

[EndlessWire]

45. The worst disaster of his life??

I just don't see it that way. Sometimes, you can parent your guts out and not get to the problem. Sometimes, it is NOT the parents fault. This kid utterly destroyed his classmates and their families, his own family, his own life. Let him own it!

Didn't they go to the arraignment? That's what I read. There will be nothing they can do to help him. Let his defense attorney do the best he can for him. He's going to jail for the rest of his life. He has all but put his parents there, too. He's orphaned his sibs. I have regrets but no sympathy for this fifteen year old. Yes, he will be a different person later in life, but that won't bring back the people he killed.

Why didn't the school help the parents? They needed help at that point. But, I don't think anyone realized that the gun was missing. After the father discovered it was gone, he did what he should have done, he called the cops. But, it was too late by then.

This is why I feel that gun ownership should not be allowed until you are at least twenty five years old and your brain has finished developing. You may never be fully mature, but at least other people have more of a chance. But, try getting that passed!

[NH Ethylene]

55. I generally do not blame the parents.

For the very reasons you stated. As a mother I did my very best, and then hoped for the best. This could happen to anyone and seems to be more a function of the child's mental health and his school life environment than upbringing.

But I've read certain details in support of the charge of the parents that indicate that because of a pro-gun zealotry they were blind to danger signs that predicted what was to come.

[NutmegYankee]

41. So let me get this straight -

Gun nuts stockpile guns to fight off the Government, and yet when that government comes for them, they take $4000 out of the bank and run.