crumbley questions questions questions

[orleans]

who owned the building they were hiding in?
who let them in the building?
why didn't the school insist they take their kid home for the day?
why didn't the school search the locker and backpack?
was there a counselor present at the parent meeting on friday morning?
did a school rep ask the parents if there were guns in their household?

[SheltieLover]

1. Why wasn't the kid IVCd for a full psych eval?

[mwmisses4289]

4. IVC?

What is this, please? When I looked it up, i got something to do with a heart procedure, or a college in California.

[Wingus Dingus]

8. Prob an involuntary psych hold.

[SheltieLover]

9. Sorry. Involuntary commitment to psych ward

I had a client once whose teacher found similar drawings.

Guess who got a quick ride with lights to a psych ward?

That is absolutely the ONLY ethically responsible action to take.

That said, this anti-social kid would most likely have erupted violently in another time & place. But it would not have happened at school that day.

The 2 onsite cops should have confisgated backpack, made him empty all pockets & IVCd him.

If parents would not get on board with IVC, they should have called children's protective services & they would have done it.

They have staff for this sort of thing. Often, parents do not pick kids up from psych wards upon discharge, most often because they are terrified of their kid. So children's protective services takes custody & brings abandonment charges against parents. Just another example, not related because nobody bothered to admit this sociopath for a psych eval & stabilization meds.

This is a ridiculous situation with a horribly tragic outcome.

[Diamond_Dog]

14. My hubby is a retired high school teacher

He couldn’t believe they just let that kid go back to class and didn’t look in his backpack, no suspension, no discipline.

Said even if the parents made a stink they should have said, too bad, so sue us. They should have called a cop to take a look inside or at the very LEAST he should have been sent home or as Sheltie Lover said, for a psych evaluation.

So many fails here.

[SheltieLover]

17. Yup!

This sociopath clearly had murder on his mind, as evidenced by the images he drew which 2 teachers saw.

Wtf???

[SheltieLover]

22. When I was called to my client's school fof a similar incident, I thought

Holy fucking shit! Not on my watch you don't!

Grotesque, graphic images & a "hit list! Nope. Ride with lights!

That is absolutely THE ONLY ethical response in such a situation.

Why admin didn't react that way, we will likely never know.

[Diamond_Dog]

24. Absolutely!

I’ll bet the parents made a big stink and those school officials were scared of a lawsuit.

[H2O Man]

15. +1

[SheltieLover]

18. Standard procedure

[H2O Man]

43. Not even a question.

There were so many flashing red lights signaling "Danger!"

[SheltieLover]

44. Right!

Cannot be too careful in these violent times!

[H2O Man]

46. One of my best friends

stopped by a couple of hours ago. He and I did "community crises response" -- among other tasks -- for the county mental health clinic. Now, this was decades ago, and in our very rural county, we needed to see a gun before calling upon police to assist us in our evaluations. But they'd almost always be called to do the transport to the hospitals in two other counties. We had a couple of gun incidents, including one cranky old, personality-disordered fellow who greeted us with a shotgun. Within 30 seconds, we were gone -- about the fastest I ever moved! -- and ten minutes later, there were six police vehicles there. Off he went.

That was one of two times I have had a shotgun aimed uncomfortably close to my head. There were other episodes of aggression with weapons -- a fellow who brought a 2-by-4 in the clinic to attack a co-worker, a person who attempted to stab a co-worker in his office, and a guy who had a knife and threatened the director of community services. The staff counted on me to provide safety until police arrived, and I got a few injuries doing so. I could go on and on.


My son works in a pretty good school as a crisis counselor. It's different today, in part -- in my opinion -- because he is dealing with the kids and grandkids of the people I worked with at the clinic and in community crises. It is, in my opinion, a more dangerous job today. I worry about him on good days, and more when events like Oxford unfold.

I used to teach community crises response at the state university in our region in upstate NY for the town, county, and state police recruits. Also for the graduate students in social work at two universities. The #1 rule is trust your instincts. So my friend and I were wondering why the heck that kid wasn't hospitalized? There was so much there.

[Jilly_in_VA]

25. +111111

[gldstwmn]

27. Does Michigan not have red flag laws?

[SheltieLover]

38. No idea at all

[Sunsky]

37. +1000

I agree with every word. I'm shocked they would let a kid with this presentation back into the general school population because the parents refused to take him home If this kid doesn't scream RED FLAG potential school shooter, who does?
I'm definitely not shifting blame from the shooter but there are plenty of missteps happening in this case.

[SheltieLover]

40. Agreed!

I'm not shifting blame either, but had admin functioned responsibly & ethically, the murders that day at that school would not have happened because the weapon & ammo would have been confusgated & the kid sent non-stop to a psych ward for a full eval & meds, if necessary.

This sociopath would most likely have erupted violently another time imho. From what I've read, this kid had murder on his mind.

[Floyd R. Turbo]

2. As I understand it the owner of the building recognized their car and reported it to the police.

Can’t comment on your other queries.

[iemanja]

3. the building held art studios

according to the police spokesman last night. Evidently it had a private owner. The police are investigating the person who let them in so wouldn't disclose any details.

My sense is that the school dropped the ball on all of those questions you raise.

[AllaN01Bear]

5. so,will the kid like the rittenhouse fool get off scott free.

no and i wont say you know who as i dont want to insult lord voldimort.

[gab13by13]

6. Times have changed;

law enforcement needed to be present at the meeting with parents.

[iemanja]

7. I disagree

There is enough criminalization of childhood. Most cases are relatively minor.
This is an exception. The school needed better procedures, for sure.

[gab13by13]

12. This wasn't a case of someone

smoking in the boy's room.

I was opposed to putting cops in schools, still am, but this situation was different, times are different.

Back in the 60's when we got mad at one another we went out a side door and had a fist fight, did it pretty regularly right before study hall. Back then teachers were free to discipline us though, we had a contest to see who got paddled the most, until we had to do drawers down, then the contest ended. No one called the cops back in the 60's, the schools did the discipline but those days are over because little Johnny's mom and dad complained.

[iemanja]

35. Okay, I took your post to mean police should be called

into all parent student meetings with potential misconduct. I can see doing so when a student is suspected of being a shooter.
I heard the Oxford Sheriff talking about how they have protocols for investigating potential school shootings and that the police should have been called in this case.

[SheltieLover]

13. I agree, but not in this case

With violent images & phrases found by teachers.

Had the 2 onsite cops searched this kid's backpack & pockets, 4 students would be alive & the rest would not be mourning their loss in terror.

I believe both mental health professionals & police involvement would have at least pevented the massacre that day.

[Jilly_in_VA]

26. This kid

is a straight up sociopath with serious criminal tendencies which he carried out within minutes of being told to "go back to class". No mercy. Psychiatric hold wouldn't help him one little bit.

[SheltieLover]

33. I agree 100%

But IVC would have prevented the tragedy that day at that school.

[EndlessWire]

32. There first has to be

a shield law for the school officials to take action that doesn't get them sued. I certainly would have sent the kid off to the doc that day. But then, the kid has 1st Amendment rights. And, I think that the kid did not have the weapon in his backpack that particular day. Why? He would have used it that very day. I think he went home and got it from wherever he hid it to use the next day when he realized his opportunity to use it was fading. It doesn't seem much like self defense to me. It seems like a calculated plan. But, I don't really know.

I don't think searching his backpack that day would have produced the gun. I think NOT letting him back in school until he talked to a doc would have been appropriate. He should not have been allowed back in school. He could have been placed on a home school program. What rules does Michigan have?

[SheltieLover]

36. From what I've read,

A teacher observed him shopping for ammo the day before on a device.

But on ghe day of the murders, he was at school, a teacher observed threatening images the kid had created, sent him to the office, then he was released back to class. I believe it is presumed he had the gun at that time, whether in his bag or hidden in the building.

Police & mental health involvement would have prevented the tragedy that occured minutes after the sociopath returned to class.

[SheltieLover]

10. Absolutely!

Especially in this instance where threatening pictures were found!!!

[WhiskeyGrinder]

11. Criminalizing a cry for help is not the answer.

[gab13by13]

16. Didn't say criminalize a cry for help,

if law enforcement had been present at the meeting maybe 4 people would be alive today?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

21. Bringing cops to every parent-kid meeting definitey sets a criminalization tone.

[gab13by13]

29. Never said bring cops to every meeting,

I said they needed to be present at this meeting.

Times have changed, back in the 60's it wasn't that easy to get a permit to carry a hand gun, especially concealed. Guns weren't allowed in the school parking lot. Automatic weapons were banned, high capacity magazines were banned. We are way beyond setting a tone, we have a culture in America that is obsessed with guns. People I know openly admit to me that they keep loaded guns in their houses, numerous people, and I live in rural Pa. where there is little crime. Why are people in my region so afraid that they feel the need to keep loaded guns everywhere? Those people, who are law abiding as far as I know, are the people who scare me. Millions of people in America live their lives in fear when they shouldn't. I don't even lock my doors but my neighbor has loaded guns, why is that?

[LAS14]

20. One thing that could change, without "criminalizing a cry for help," is this.

If internet posts or pictures or writing of the sort found connected to Crumbley are found, there should be a standing rule that back packs and lockers are searched. No implication that the student is guilty of worse. It's just a policy that had been made public from the start of school.

[Jilly_in_VA]

28. "Cry for help"

my sainted Aunt Matilda. That was a SIGNAL of what he intended to do.

[LAS14]

42. I was talking to the people up thread who used this term. I'm just saying...

... that you can avoid debates about what are "cries" and what are "threats" by having it be a neutral policy. Disturbing stuff leads to locker and back pack searches. End of story.

[iemanja]

45. He literally asked for help

and talked about intrusive thoughts in his head. Sure, it was a signal of what he was going to do, but it is also potentially symptomatic of a schizoid mental illness. And the parents did nothing about that cry.

[Frasier Balzov]

23. School personnel are back on their heels these days.

With the trending "parents rule!" sentiment sweeping the nation.

[gab13by13]

31. Yes,

I drove by a local middle school and saw these people with flags and posters protesting the terrible law that their darlings had to wear masks in school to protect them from being owned by the Libs.

[SYFROYH]

30. I think the school did not see Ethan as an imminent threat.

[leftstreet]

34. Don't know if this was the first parent call

Haven't read much, but I suspect many, many lawyers will be doing lots of investigating

[iemanja]

41. The Superintendent said

"no discipline was warranted." That boggles my mind.

[MontanaMama]

39. As far as the backpack is concerned...

There are actually very restrictive laws on searching a student backpack. Law-enforcement could've done it but school officials cannot. They can ask a student to empty their own backpack and they definitely should have done that…and of course the parents should have done it as well and they should have removed him from school that day. It sounds like the investigation is ongoing and we will eventually find out if school officials asked the parents if there were firearms in the home.

[orleans]

47. this is from michigan state u - law school (on searches of backpacks and lockers)

Students have a privacy right in their personal belongings, such as backpacks, and school officials must have “reasonable suspicion” before searching a student’s items. Lockers, on the other hand, are owned by the school, so the school can search those without having “reasonable suspicion.” So you better not have any contraband in your locker, like joints. To be safe, don’t keep it in your backpack or car either. Don’t bring it anywhere near your school!

Students have privacy rights while in school, but these privacy rights are limited compared to the privacy rights people have outside of schools. This means that although you do have rights as a student, your school has the power to limit them. So if you have drugs, drug paraphernalia, or really anything embarrassing that you don’t want your school principal to see, like zit cream or condoms, do NOT keep it in your locker.

https://mclellan.law.msu.edu/questions/searching-student-belongings

imo that drawing of someone getting shot and "blood everywhere" would be a reasonable suspicion to search that backpack.