If you want to sell a product do you advertise the negative features?

[Cary]

So why do people who claim to be Democrats, or anti-Republican, squeal about alleged Democratic faults?

[MineralMan]

1. Well, sometimes you do list the negatives.

For real estate sales, most states require the seller to disclose all negative issues on the property. We just sold our previous home, and I had to fill out a detailed form to that effect.

When I've sold used cars, too, I have always been completely honest about the issues with that vehicle. Oddly enough, that has never stopped anyone from buying the car. I guess they're so surprised to hear about flaws that they just go ahead with the deal, regardless.

The thing is that revealing flaws helps to ensure that the buyer doesn't come back on you after discovering issues. You told them about any issues before they bought it. It's a protection for the seller, really.

That, however, does not apply to people running down Democrats on this forum. That's a different thing, altogether, I think.

[Cary]

5. So you're saying...

Last edited Sun Dec 5, 2021, 12:29 PM - Edit history (1)

If you don't express your subjective negative opinion about a political candidate that is the same as not disclosing a known hazard in the home you're selling?

I don't think so.

[MineralMan]

11. You asked a question. I answered it.

[Cary]

13. And I responded to your answer.

That's how a discussion usually works.

[Cary]

21. I actually crafted my question carefully.

I prefaced the question with a statement about sales. It wasn't about politics. It was about sales and I said "negative features" not hazardous defects.

Then I asked: "So why do people who claim to be Democrats, or anti-Republican, squeal about alleged Democratic faults?"

So there I did shift to politics but I did not change the context from "sales." I also used the words "alleged Democratic faults," and squeal, which clarifies I think that I was not asking about calm factual discussion.

It is telling that some of us are triggered so easily into defense mode.

MM our democracy is at risk. We need to be better. I'm sorry but there is just too much at stake. I know that I didn't segway well into my last statement but that is where I am coming from.

[MineralMan]

23. There is a difference between sales and politics.

The two are not really equivalent, which explains my response.

If I'm selling something, the buyer might have a recourse if I failed to mention a flaw in the product that was a potential danger to the buyer. With a car, that might be something wrong with the brakes that wasn't obvious, but that I knew about. With a house, it might be a furnace that sometimes fails to light and heat the house.

With a politician, only that politician can tell you the parameters of his or her political point of view. You can go back and look at that politician's record, if there is one, but you cannot predict what that politician will do in a situation that isn't the same as before.

Others, of course, can point out deficiencies in a politician, but speculation about how that politician will vote on a particular issue remains unknown, unless the politician tells you, and that answer will often be based on how you asked a particular question.

Yes, there is a great deal at stake. However, none of us has any role to play in electing a specific politician, unless we are part of that politician's constituency. So, there is always a risk in broadcasting negative opinions about a politician who doesn't represent us and for whom we cannot even vote.

There is a temptation, of course, to wish for different people to run in places where we do not vote. However, since we are not local to that politician's district or state, we almost never fully understand the issues that materially affect who can and cannot be elected in any particular place, other than the one we are familiar with.

Would I vote for Manchin or Sinema? I would not, but I don't get to vote for or against either. I don't live in their states.

Would I rather have a progressive Senator from West Virginia or Arizona? Absolutely. But, that is not my call in any way, so I do not comment on who should be the Democratic candidates in those states. My opinion is irrelevant. It is highly likely that a Democrat who met my standards would lose to a Republican in those states. So, I must rely on the voters in those states to know best who should run there for office. I know next to nothing about either state. So, I withhold my criticisms of those politicians, because the alternative is likely to be a Republican. I do know that would not be a good alternative, for obvious reasons.

Where I am incompetent to comment, I do not comment.

[Cary]

63. Have you done focus groups or studied the results?

The Kochs and Russians spend billions of dollars to sow discord and discontent, demoralizing Democratic voters.

I haven't done any focus groups either so if you can knock down my theory with objective evidence you win. I believe the right wing has studied that and shown that their negativity discourages democrats from voting. I know Comey affected the election. I know Russian trolls have an affect.

So what is the net affect of negativity from the alleged liberals? Answer that question please.

People here are excusing their negativity, not answering the question. I'm interested in winning, not defending whiner's rights. If their bitching and moaning about unfortunate current realities is benign then go at it. But I see zero evidence that it is benign and as I said the cost of poor discipline is too high.

The media is playing up a mere 200,000 jobs in the last report, ignoring the fact that unemployment is at an all time low. And 200,000 isn't a bad number. Yes inflation is up but there is a mountain of data that shows the economy is currently right where we want it to be. "It's the economy stupid." Ok then why aren't we selling the fact that Joe Biden created more jobs than the last 3 Republican disasters combined?

I'm sorry but f**k the negativity. We don't win by cutting off our noses to spite our face. That's how we lose time after time.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

2. Depends on whom I'm talking to. If I want to sell a policy, I don't focus on the negative features.

If I'm at a party event trying to improve the party or talking with Democrats about policies or politicians who could do better, I will definitely highlight "negative features" that need to be changed. Some see that as badmouthing, though.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

3. Democrats are honest about what they propose. Policies are wise despite the negatives. . . . nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

4. Are you instead complaining about internal (though public) discussion on DU?

Better that Democrats know the negatives and the reasons why policy surmounts and overcomes those negatives.

At this point I'm not sure what your point is.

[Cary]

7. I asked a question

You know nothing about any point because I didn't try to make one.

[True Dough]

12. "You know nothing about any point because I didn't try to make one."

I should steal that as my DU signature!

[FBaggins]

70. Then congratulations. You succeeded in failing to make a point

Since I'm also in the mood for not making points... I'll just make the unrelated comment that, while companies don't advertise the weaknesses of their products, they do spend lots of time with focus groups and polls to identify those weaknesses and spend lots of time internally discussing the weaknesses and evaluating strategies for closing gaps and/or improving the product. They do not just run new ads with glitzier colors pretending that they have no weaknesses.

[Cary]

71. Do they also spend time being ugly and nasty to each other?

[FBaggins]

73. Not as often as you have on this thread

But thanks for scoring my reply as "in good faith"

[Cary]

74. Except I haven't been ugly or nasty

You don't speak for me and there is nothing good faith about putting words in someone else's mouth.

Buh bye.

[FBaggins]

75. You do seem to have an active imagination

Haven't seen any ugly or nasty posts by anyone else here.

In addition to apologizing to yourself. Perhaps you should just post exclusively to yourself. I recommend using Notepad. It's the custom part of DU that allows you to control both sides of the conversation. You'll love it!

[Cary]

80. (Read.slowly)

You don't say?

[FBaggins]

81. And apparently trouble with veracity

You've promised to go away and ignore us a number of times now.

Don't you think you're looking silly when you compulsively reply without content?

[Cary]

82. (Read.slowly)

You don't say?

[empedocles]

6. Pre-election 2021, Manchin & Progressive Caucus loudly disputing our Dem Prez Biden,

was bad. They made Biden look like he couldn't govern his own party.

Very bad, negative, advertising by some Dems against the Democratic Party.

That is what the national electorate saw on the big broadcast news networks and MSM - as well as fox types.

[Cary]

8. Amplified by the nedia

"Democrats in disarray" don't you know?

[empedocles]

9. Dissidents sought the media

[Great for dissident fund-raising, as well as self-promotion]

[Cary]

10. 6 major corporations own the media n/t

[empedocles]

33. When Members from the President's own party undermine the President, its news.

[Happened to trump for years. I just hate to see it happen to Biden, to no good end.]

[Cary]

34. Truth

[world wide wally]

14. I would liken it to a fan saying, "The Cubs need better pitching"

Even if they are a fan.

[Celerity]

15. Internal debate is not advertising, and as for tension on the 2 bills, the only people

to blame are Manchin, Sinema, and the 13 Problems Solvers types, as the rest of the caucus, the progressives includwf, were just trying to get Biden's own reduced baseline numbers passed, even after a massive $3.8 trillion in new spend (total gutted from both bills) was ripped out by Manchin and Sinema.

Now it (BBB) will be very likely be gutted even more (if it even passes at all) as all leverage is gone. Manchin and Sinema won the day, and they have the power (just one, not even both are needed) to destroy our chances in 2022 and 2024. If they refuse to do a carve-out for the filibuster for the voter rights and protection bills, they put the entire nation at serious risk, and if Manchin blocks the BBB (he is the more likely to do it) as well, we are staring down the barrel of a bloodletting in 2022 of horrific potential.

[Bettie]

45. Apparently, not giving the answer that someone wants

is "not answering in good faith"....SMH.

[Cary]

90. Nope.

Intentionally mischaracterizing what people say, and then being obnoxious about it, is not good faith.

But you knew that.

[Bettie]

92. You posted an incredibly vague statement

and refuse to elaborate on it.

That's bad faith.

But you knew that.

[Cary]

93. Your problem doesn't justify your behavior

[Farmer-Rick]

16. When I sell at the farmer's market,

I tell customers up front that my radishes, especially my black radishes, are hot and spicy.

About 10 years ago hot and spicy was a flaw. Most people avoided them. Then a couple of years ago, hot and spicy became a positive and I would be sold out by noon.

So, yeah, advertising the negative...or at least mentioning them, is a good idea if you don't want returns. And who knows, maybe the negative will become a positive.

[Cary]

17. But you point out that's not a negative

[ShazamIam]

18. Do you have an example of what you mean, and or some specific things you see

Democratic complaining about other Democratic?


Did you know the label, Democrats was created by Republicans as an insult name for the Democratic Party?
That using the label Democrat was an insult?

[Cary]

19. No

[Ohio Joe]

108. ummm... Then what is your OP about?

Kind of negates your post

[Cary]

112. The OP is a question

I'm shocked and appalled that so many people here can't comprehend that concept.

[Ohio Joe]

113. I get that it is a question...

It just makes no sense... Your question has a basic assumption, that "people who claim to be Democrats, or anti-Republican, squeal about alleged Democratic faults". It comes across to me that you think that people who have issue with the party should not say anything.. This could be true or false depending on what the issue is and/or how it is presented but I don't think it should be such a sweeping generalization.... Hence the ask for examples. Yet... You do not have any examples of such a thing happening. Does not make any sense to me.

[Cary]

114. Why do people here assume that i need their approval?

FYI that's a question too.

[George II]

20. "Democrat" is only an insulting name when it's an adjective, as in "Democrat Party"...

It is NOT an insult when used as a noun, i.e., "He's a Democrat", "A group of Democrats", etc.

The origin of the the insult "Democrat Party" was that republicans (yes, I never capitalize that as MY insult!) wanted to drive the point that our party isn't "democratic".

The OP, using "Democrat" and "Democratic", is correct in both instances.

[ShazamIam]

38. I'm not going to argue with my neighbor who has no dog in the fight.

It is all about ignorance, Here:https://www.factcheck.org/2007/12/the-democratic-or-democrat-party/
originally the word Democrat was an insult, no one knows the history.

[George II]

51. I know the history....

The adjective "democrat" was/is an insult. The noun "democrat" (or "Democrat" ) is acceptable.

The first relatively modern use of the word as a derogatory reference was in the late 1930s/early 1940s. republicans used it to imply that the Democratic Party wasn't "democratic", mostly because of party bosses in several states. That didn't last long however.

McCarthyites in the 1950s resurrected it, and its use ebbed and flowed from then until the 1980s when its usage became mainstream by republicans and has been ever since.

And here we are today.

[ShazamIam]

88. It is not a word. It is slang or colloquial. Why do you need the word Democrat when there is

the official and correct name. The word Democratic is for an individual member/voter and or the party. The word Democratic is like a few other words, both singular and or plural without an s at the end.
I think that is the faulty reason it has become more common. People think Democrats sounds correct and that the Democratic does not. It is no a real word it is the corruption of a word.

[George II]

96. So then, do you refer to yourself as a "Democratic"?

[ShazamIam]

122. Yes, I am Democratic. Why do you think that would be different from, I am Re***lican?

[lapucelle]

121. The word "Democratic" can't be pluralized because it's an adjective.

Both "Democrat" and "Democratic are words.

democrat (noun)

1 a : an adherent of democracy
b : one who practices social equality

2 capitalized : a member of the Democratic party of the U.S.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democrat?utm_campaign=sd&utm_medium=serp&utm_source=jsonld

democratic (adjective)

1 : based on a form of government in which the people choose leaders by voting : of or relating to democracy The dictatorship gave way to a democratic (form of) government. Democratic elections were held there today for the first time.

2 : of or relating to one of the two major political parties in the U.S. The Democratic candidate for governor won the debate. Most of these policies appeal to Democratic voters. an interview with a leader of the Democratic Party

3 : relating to the idea that all people should be treated equally democratic principles The organization works to promote democratic reforms/changes around the world. a more democratic society

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democratic

[lapucelle]

120. The noun Democrat was never a slur. The term Democrat Party is. N/T

[iemanja]

36. One uses it in its proper grammatical form

Democrat is a noun. Democratic is an adjective. Using adjectives in the place of nouns is simply bad grammar. Republicans use nouns in the place of adjectives, which is also bad grammar as well as a deliberate slight.

I have no intention of going around sounding illiterate because some don't know English grammar.

[ShazamIam]

40. I never use it. Fact check did their bit on it.

https://www.factcheck.org/2007/12/the-democratic-or-democrat-party/

I have no intention going around using a word intended as an insult when talking about the political party I belong to.

[iemanja]

41. You've provided an example that is an adjective

So Democratic is the proper form. That does not mean one goes around using Democratic when a noun is correct grammatically. For example, "Democrats support x legislation." Using Democratic in place of Democrat in that sentence would be wrong grammatically. You really need to learn grammatical forms. And you have no business going around telling people to speak incorrectly.

[ShazamIam]

42. I'm trying to tell you the word is an insult, but yes I see no one knows and it has become an adj in

common usage which in this case is misuse but not uncommon in a nation that stopped teaching grammar and our own history years ago.

[Lancero]

55. The word Democrat originated in the 18th century, it wasn't made up by Republicans in 2007.

It very much is a shame that some people don't know the full history behind the word.

[ShazamIam]

58. I made no such claim, why are you? I did post a link about the history of the word, did you read it

[Lancero]

66. You claimed that it was created specifically as a insult. It wasn't.

The word's origins go back to the 18th century - The earliest known usage being 1789. It was a word long before the Republicans had any need of a insult towards the Democratic Party.

[ShazamIam]

79. There weren't any Republicans back then.

[Lancero]

98. Exactly, and the word originated in 1789...

So how could it have been created, by them, as a insult?

[ShazamIam]

100. I don't think anyone cares but here is a brief explanation. https://www.factcheck.org/2007/12/the-de

[Crunchy Frog]

115. You'd better tell the people running this site that they are using a slur

against the Democratic Party in official site materials. Here's the text of one of DU's rules.

Support Democrats
Do not post support for Republicans or independent/third-party "spoiler" candidates. Do not state that you are not going to vote, or that you will write-in a candidate that is not on the ballot, or that you intend to vote for any candidate other than the official Democratic nominee in any general election where a Democrat is on the ballot. Do not post anything that smears Democrats generally, or that is intended to dissuade people from supporting the Democratic Party or its candidates. Don't argue there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats.

Why we have this rule: Democratic Underground is an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government, and as such we expect our members to support and vote for Democrats at election time. Rare exceptions are granted at the sole discretion of the DU Administrators. (Current exceptions: None.)

This seems like an intolerable insult. Probably perpetrated by Republican infiltrators.

[Celerity]

56. +10000000000000000

[ShazamIam]

59. Yes, insult words are adjectives but what are you and the other posting suggesting that there

is such a thing as a democrat Democratic.

[Celerity]

60. It is the most basic of English grammar and syntax. Are you a native English speaker?

If not, then I at least begin to have a rational basis and foundation upon which I can attempt to erect an understanding in regards to the confusion you apparently happen to have when comes down to differentiating between nouns and adjectives.

I am a Democrat.

I am a member of the Democratic Party.

To say:

'I am a Democratic.'

is simply grammatically wrong, as 'Democratic' is an adjective, not a noun.

Cheers!

[ShazamIam]

61. My talking point was the use of Democrat as a name for Democratic. I'm not calling it a grammar

issue, someone else on the thread is.

[Celerity]

62. So you take no issue with this sentence:

'President Biden is a Democrat.'

?

[ShazamIam]

64. I can promise I will never use it.

[Celerity]

68. Why? It is NOT a slur, and is factually and grammatically correct.

[FBaggins]

72. Why are you even here?

Helping elect more Democrats (not "democratics" ) to political office...

while our members are Democrats (not democratics" ) and affiliated liberals...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus

Who knew this site was an intentional insult/slur to Democratics?

“Passing both infrastructure and reconciliation are absolutely critical to Democrats maintaining a majority in the House and potentially in the Senate,” echoed Sen. Tim Kaine (D-Va.)
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/12/democrats-midterm-elections-biden-agenda-515365

“Democrats have talked for a very long time about child care, health care and fighting back against the climate crisis,” Elizabeth Warren said. “We made promises. We need to keep our promises."
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/12/democrats-midterm-elections-biden-agenda-515365

Who knew so many Democratics were willing to participate in this right-wing slur campaign?

Shall I post a couple of dozen examples from President Biden?

[ShazamIam]

76. Democratic can be plural or singlular, like those are deer or there is a deer. Those are Democratic

ideas spoken by the Democratic. Calling Democratic Democrats is like calling Republicans Repubs.
A diminutive and dismissive term.

It isn't my fault no one seems to know Democrat is not only an insult, it is not even a word.

Why do you need the word Democrat, always with a D, and always slang or colloquial, not standard.


*singula/singular *their/there

[FBaggins]

77. "It isn't my fault no one seems to know Democrat is not only an insult, it is not even a word."

Democrat isn't even a word?

And yet it's found on hundreds of millions of ballots each election season?

Democratic is not a noun. There is no plural noun form "democratics"

A member of the Democratic Party is called a Democrat. Check any dictionary you like. There is no "Democrat Party"... but there are democrats.

[ShazamIam]

89. I say the only correct way to say that is: President Biden is Democratic.

Last edited Mon Dec 6, 2021, 11:20 PM - Edit history (1)

edit: sat / say

[Celerity]

94. that is just silly and awkward, he is a Democrat, or you can say he is a Democratic Party member

either one is both grammatically and politically correct

[ShazamIam]

104. There are no Democrats, only Democratic.

Th

[Celerity]

106. Roflmaoooooo

You are now just having a laugh.

Done with this utter rubbish.

[ShazamIam]

107. Ok fine and have a great December Day fellow Democratic. There is no Democrat political party.

cr

[Lancero]

67. You blamed it's usage on a lack of grammar education just a few posts above.

[Celerity]

69. I think they may well be a non-native English speaker and are simply confused.

I asked them if they were and they failed to respond either way.

I am trying my utmost to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[ShazamIam]

78. I said its use is a reflection of bad grammar and history education. Not what you are now claiming

Democrat is not a real word.

[Celerity]

95. ludicrous

Democrat is not a real word.

https://democrats.org/




https://www.dems.gov/




https://newdemocratcoalition.house.gov/




https://www.yda.org/

[ShazamIam]

103. Appalling isn't it that Democratic have adapted a conservatve created, dimitutive and dismissive

version of of our fine party name. Democratic.

https://www.factcheck.org/2007/12/the-democratic-or-democrat-party/

This is the Democratic Underground, not the Democrat Underground.

You might be revealing just how deeply the conservative invasion of the Democratic party in the late 80s and 90s has been.
Remember all that tough on crime, reform welfare, good for business wage suppression and cutting off housing and food support entirely after a set time because. .

I blam our media, lots of ignorant talking heads spewing scripted propaganda, every day, year after year.

[Crunchy Frog]

116. And yet this very site misuses the term.

Support Democrats
Do not post support for Republicans or independent/third-party "spoiler" candidates. Do not state that you are not going to vote, or that you will write-in a candidate that is not on the ballot, or that you intend to vote for any candidate other than the official Democratic nominee in any general election where a Democrat is on the ballot. Do not post anything that smears Democrats generally, or that is intended to dissuade people from supporting the Democratic Party or its candidates. Don't argue there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats.

Why we have this rule: Democratic Underground is an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government, and as such we expect our members to support and vote for Democrats at election time. Rare exceptions are granted at the sole discretion of the DU Administrators. (Current exceptions: None.)

You need to contact EarlG immediately and get him to change this ungrammatical material that's full of inadvertently hateful slurs against the Party this site supposedly supports.

[ShazamIam]

117. I am aware that I am beating the dead horse, but few would realize that this was not common,

using Democrat(s) for Democratic by both the media and the public until fairly recently in the political narrative and that would be, beginning around the Limbaugh beginning.

[Crunchy Frog]

119. My parents were Democrats and voted for Democrats in the 1960s and 70s.

If I had the time and energy I'm sure I good dig up plenty of quotes from Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, and others talking about Democrats and what it means to be a Democrat.

Have you considered the possibility that you might have misunderstood something that you read? Have you considered doing some further inquiry, such as seeking out the historical record, and quotes from pre 80s Democrats in order to challenge yourself or you assertions? This is what normal, sensible people do when confronted with the possibility that they might have been incorrect about something, which can happen to the best of us.

Or you could just contact EarlG and tell him to stop insulting the Democratics.

“I am not a member of any organized political party — I am a Democrat. ”

― Will Rogers (November 4, 1879 – August 15, 1935)

[Lancero]

97. Do you know what a suffix is?

Democrat is a root word. Add on the suffix, ic, and what do you get?

Democratic.

[ShazamIam]

102. I know about suffixes, I am talking about etymology here is the history of the word:

Last edited Tue Dec 7, 2021, 02:38 PM - Edit history (1)

Democrat vs Democratic by using Democrat, the Democratic are allowing the conservatives to shape their identity.

Democrat as used in conservative political language is a diminutive and dismissive use of Democratic, which is a damn fine word.

https://www.factcheck.org/2007/12/the-democratic-or-democrat-party/


*multiple typos

[Lancero]

110. Except your source specifies its usage as an adjective.

Democrat, used as a noun, is grammatically correct - Has been since the words earliest usage in 1789 (Well, or 90. Differing sources), centuries before Republicans began misconstruing the word as a adjective for use as an insult.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/democrat

[ShazamIam]

111. That is the entirety of what I have been saying, Republicans use it as an insult so why

are Democratic using it? It is easy to understand the media using it, they favor conservatism (anti-democratic) over democratic.

[mcar]

83. No, Democrats was not

They created "Democrat" as an insult name to be used where "Democratic" is the correct term.

Thus, "She is a Democrat," "They are Democrats" are not insulting.

"The Democrat Party" is.

[KentuckyWoman]

22. Yes I do.

I've been selling on ebay - nice things that go back to the 40's. None of it is perfect and I make a point of listing anything.

People have been snapping it up fairly quickly and not trying to talk me down on price. The items are extremely high quality compared to anything you'll find anywhere else.

I feel the same way about the Democratic Party. It is not perfect and don't expect it to be, but good luck getting anything better in the US of A.

[Cary]

24. You too?

I'm looking at my opening post and I see the word "advertise."

As far as I know the word "advertise" is not synonymous with the word "disclose."

[KentuckyWoman]

28. Which tells you something when nearly everyone responding

points this out.

[Cary]

29. Yes it does

It's old news and why I don't post here much any more:

a lot of you don't post in good faith.

[Cary]

31. I am a trial lawyer with 36 years of experience

I know how to debate.

And I know when people are gaslighting.

What I have never understood is why people resort to that malicious,, stupid tactic here at DU.

Can you answer that please?, This time maybe in good faith?

[brooklynite]

25. Perhaps ethical sales people don't hide factual truths...

...what "faults" are you unhappy about revealing?

[SYFROYH]

26. You mean like listing deadly side effects from pharmaceuticals?

Yep, you see it all the time.

[ProfessorGAC]

27. In Every Pharma Ad, Yes

A quarter to a third of every commercial is dedicated to the potential downsides of the "wonder drug".
That meets your definition, because those are actually advertising spots for that product.
If all that negative information truly reduced sales of these new drugs, they'd quit running the ads. (The declared side effects are included for legal reasons.)
So, those negative features obviously haven't reduced the effectiveness of those ads.

[Silent3]

30. Do you categorize all utterances about politics to be a form of advertising?

Do you think we should police our speech as if everything we say about Democrats counts as a political ad?

[Demsrule86]

50. At this moment in history 'yes'...our Democracy is at stake.

[Silent3]

52. I agree that democracy is in peril and the stakes are high...

...but I don't see acting like a rah-rah cheerleader with every breath, self-censoring to project nothing but absolute solidarity at every moment in every context, as any kind of reasonable, desirable, or effective strategy whatsoever.

[SunImp]

54. 1+++

[Bettie]

32. So, are you equating posting on a Democratic message board

to advertising?

Or elected representatives stating what they would like to do for their constituents?

Or is this another "progressives should sit down and shut up!" post?

Not being in lock-step with every other member of the party isn't advertising.

[Cary]

35. FYI

People not responding in good faith will henceforth be ignored.

I apologize to myself for indulging a few extrapolations. I will try to be better.

[Cary]

37. I'm afraid that people here haven't learned a damn thing

The Obama wars. The lying about Hillary Clinton. Smearing Al Gore. ...

As usual I am naive.

smh

[mcar]

84. It's discouraging

I am seeing a repeat of the Obama midterms all over social media, with so-called "progressives" doing everything they can do depress the Democratic vote.

[Cary]

85. Sad n/t

[Zeitghost]

39. For the same reason

I am self reflective and try to identify my flaws. So that I progress and become a better person.

Ignoring faults only allows them to fester.

[Demsrule86]

49. Well we will have ample time examine our faults as we lose election after election due to

this sort of thing.

[Takket]

43. Because "Democrat" is not a one size fits all title.

People complain about Merrick Garland not moving on drumpf fast enough.

People criticized Al Franken for "assaulting" a woman

And people criticized Kirsten Gillibrand for being vocal about Franken needing to step down.

[Demsrule86]

48. And then we lose elections.

[Ms. Toad]

44. Because most of my conversations about policy are not designed to sell a product. n/t

[Demsrule86]

47. OK...who cares about elections and all...I mean losing is some purifyifing and all...

[Ms. Toad]

53. I was responding to the OP,

whose comment was not limited to elections.

[Demsrule86]

46. That is exactly right...it drives people away from our party...and costs us elections.

[Crunchy Frog]

118. Maybe the self appointed scolds and language police are driving people away

from our party and costing us elections.

[betsuni]

57. It would be nice if most of the negatives were actually true. At least then there would be a

reason for continually repeating them over and over and over. But this is too much to ask.

[Cary]

87. Apparently it is. too much to ask, at DU

[MineralMan]

65. Thinking more about this - The thing is that

not everyone who claims to be a Democrat is actually a Democrat, especially on the Internet.

Further, not everyone commenting on Democrats is trying to sell the idea of voting for Democrats.

On the other hand, one of the most powerful tools in debating is anticipating the arguments of your opponent. By doing so, you can counter those arguments before they are presented, thus disarming the opponent to some degree. "My opponent will say..., but the truth is..."

Another factor for those actually involved in helping candidates win is that one cannot dismantle objections without stating them. That is related to the debating strategy above.

You ask about selling products, but then talk about people who "claim to be Democrats," as though their goal is selling the idea of electing particular Democrats. That is not necessarily the case, you see.

I have steadily argued for maximum effort to be put into GOTV for Democrats in all elections. Those arguments are most often widely ignored here on DU, in favor of arguing about the merits of one Democratic candidate over another Democratic candidate. When we argue about two Democratic candidates for the same office, we will discuss their positives AND negatives. That's the nature of internal competitions within a party.

Sadly, too many people focus solely on the negatives for a particular candidate and then find it difficult to support that candidate in the general election. That's the risk, always.

It's complicated.

[Cary]

86. Agreed

[RFCalifornia]

91. Because we clean house

They don't

[ecstatic]

99. Are people squealing about faults or genuinely scared to death

about what's coming if someone doesn't do something? I'm not sure how much your life will be affected when things go full magafascist, but I won't be able to blend in. I will be a target.

[fescuerescue]

101. Yes. You are honest about the minor limitations

Limitations that don't matter.

This builds credibility.

If you are perceived as lying about the minor matters, you will also be perceived as lying about the major matters.

But if you are talking about discussion. That's not advertising. That's discussion.

[CrackityJones75]

105. I love this forum

I love how this forum constantly misses the overall point and gets bogged down with the minutia debating minor details.

Its the messaging.

[Caliman73]

109. Interesting post with a lot of action. What is it about?

What are we trying to sell exactly? This thread seems to be getting a lot of attention, but what is the purpose?

When you are selling something, you obviously try to point out the positives.

Like beer companies who take two average looking guys and then the pop the cap off of that Coors and BLAM! They are surrounded by a bunch of sexy women who are all interested in partying with them. Because, you know, drinking a certain beer will achieve that outcome.

I mean, kind of like how Republicans get all pissed off when Democrats talk about accurate American history and point out some of the societal issues that need to be address right? Shit! If you are a "real American" why the hell would you want to point out the history of racial injustice, or militarism, or other such problems, right?

I think that I understand what you might be trying to say but it would be good if there were specific examples of people trying to "sell" the Democratic brand by point out faults.

Could it be that they are making critiques of the way that the party is handling certain things that you don't agree with? Is is something else? If so, could you be specific in what you have a problem with?