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LiberatedUSA
(1,666 posts)…and chucked out again.
milestogo
(23,135 posts)Or was it only astounding for a female swimmer?
jimfields33
(19,382 posts)The women will maybe not get all the wins, but the team will which is what’s important. Men’s sports probably won’t be affected quite as much.
WhiskeyGrinder
(27,074 posts)
XX/XY is not a solution. So far it seems that the NCAA policy, which has been around for 11 years, is working fine.
SYFROYH
(34,214 posts)There are different combinations of X and Y and there are the hyper and hypo sentiviry to hormones issues which defy sex chromosomes.
stopdiggin
(15,539 posts)And - if one accepts that there are a multiplicity of variables (which seems to be the correct answer) - then how does one go about sorting them out? Or - as the OP suggests, does everybody just get thrown in the same pool?
questionseverything
(11,861 posts)The way things are it’s not fair
WhiskeyGrinder
(27,074 posts)Trans women are women.
There's a lot more going on with XX/XY than just two options. More than one person has been surprised by their chromosomes when a test is necessary.
Casady1
(2,133 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(27,074 posts)LiberatedUSA
(1,666 posts)When why would a man compete against a woman? You see where they are going from a mile away.
Personally, I find this news very normal. A woman beat a woman. So it was a transwoman, so what? The Transwoman gets the 1st class trophy, the woman born a woman gets to be 2nd class. What’s wrong with that? If you are 2nd class, you were almost a 1st class person! Almost.
Nothing abnormal here. Don’t let that person troll you.
Casady1
(2,133 posts)the woman competing you would think it is unfair. The trans women has to continue competing against men.
questionseverything
(11,861 posts)I feel like you must be kidding
Casady1
(2,133 posts)you would never say a trans women is a women in a physical v competition. I played for 5 years 3 games a day 5 days a week with the Rookie of the year in the first Women's professional league. She was 5'8 140 lbs of muscle and a great shooter. I played around 2,000 games with her. She was a much better shooter than me and I set hundreds of picks for her. I was 5'10 and 165lbs. I was quicker and if I wanted to I could back her down and dominate her physically.
I was a decent player and I could dominate her. She was the Rookie of the year and her name is Sandra Smallwood and she is in the Belmont college HOF.
That will tell you the difference in men and women. The trans people have to sit out sports or still compete with men. It is ludicrous to say that they can compete.
WhiskeyGrinder
(27,074 posts)Casady1
(2,133 posts)that a women dominates a man at the professional level.
WhiskeyGrinder
(27,074 posts)
iemanja
(57,771 posts)but not those of Olympic level men.
Casady1
(2,133 posts)no woman can compete with a man.
kwolf68
(8,452 posts)Not sure what to think, but women do have different genetics than men. That's why the most dedicated crazy ass women body builders will NEVER EVER be as big as the men builders.
I don't see it happening.
That said, winning rules. If some women shows up on the scene and can throw a baseball 100 mph with 3 electric off speed pitches then maybe things will change.
I mean Jackie got his spot on the Dodgers because they knew he was GOOD and could help them win. Same with black players in the NFL. Ever wonder why the AFL became so good? They put blacks all over the field and kicked ass. If women do the same then all the more power.
Casady1
(2,133 posts)
meadowlander
(5,141 posts)Taking hormones, especially before puberty, and gender reassignment surgery fundamentally rewires your system.
Also you can be born with XX or XY genetics but can have a mutation that makes you immune to the hormones that would make you develop the secondary sex characteristics of the sex your genetics say you have. Or your sex glands may not develop for some other reason.
https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/
https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/
Honestly, I think all sports are a bit silly and boring so not really bothered who gets to play on which sports ball team based on which bits they have but I do think that people should have the right to define their own gender and to have that be recognised and respected.
Casady1
(2,133 posts)It is great fun while you are playing. You using your physical and mental against your foe. I loved playing basketball. A wonderful sport to play.
meadowlander
(5,141 posts)Then I grew up and being able to run faster or kick harder than someone else stopped being that important to me.
What we need in this world is a lot less competitiveness and focus on meaningless achievements like high scores in water polo or shaving .00001 seconds of the fastest time an arbitrary distance has ever been run, and a lot more cooperation and work on things that actually make a tangible difference to other peoples' lives and to the planet.
13 million hungry kids in the US and runaway climate change, but sure, spending $56 billion on watching grownups run up an down a field or court sounds like it should be a societal priority.
Casady1
(2,133 posts)because you became bored with it and grew past it has become silly. That is a pretty ridiculous take on the question. It is pretty condescending
meadowlander
(5,141 posts).5% of the population is transgender. Conservatively, .00015% of the population plays college or professional sports or competes at an elite level in national or international competitions.
So why so much media attention (mostly on Fox BTW) to an issue that impacts, at best, .0000007% of people? Because the people pulling the media's strings would much rather we all sit around arguing with each other about this and not the fact that our planet is going to being uninhabitable in 100 years or that income inequality and corruption are destroying this country.
Let trans people play on whatever team they want to play on. Problem solved. It's not like all sports aren't already completely arbitrary and meaningless anyway. Why do we care that a man who eats a keto protein power diet and sleeps upside down and wears engineered shoes has a "legitimate" record but a man who huffs oxygen or takes steroids should have his record thrown out? Who gets to compete or not compete is already an arbitrary shit show of "this supplement good, this supplement bad" "you can wear this, you can't wear that" "this move is legal, that slightly different move is illegal".
As much as you obviously want to drag this discussion into personal attacks, it isn't about me or my experience. It's about our inability as a society to stay focused on and devote resources to the things that actually make a difference at the macro level. And objectively sports isn't one of them.
PurgedVoter
(2,715 posts)Truth is there are short people that are brilliant at basketball and in great shape. They have no chance in the big leagues. If you have the wrong injury, it just doesn't matter how much you loved the sport or trained. Not to take away from the amazing achievements of a few individuals. It took work, training and effort. But most of us, even if we spent our youth trying, could never have been the best.
This matters and it does seem unfair. Personally I think further division is needed. We have two divisions male and female, and we have weight divisions in a few sports. If you want to play outside your division, that is fine. We can have competitions that include all that want to compete in the open division.
But when a child is three years older that the other children in the grade, having that child win at any sport is unfair. They may be in the same grade, but there are reasons we divide things up.
In any case, sports is always going to be like gerrymandering. Someone is going to be at the right age, weight and gender to have the most advantage in a competition.
Casady1
(2,133 posts)Kemba walker is one of the few and he is still 6'0. There are very few short people playing Bball.
PurgedVoter
(2,715 posts)A lot of them have amazing love for the game and amazing skill.
At one time I played on a court that had a net two feet higher than normal. On that court the tall had the advantage of blocking, but they lost dominance of the net. The short had the edge on dribbling low and running. The difference that net made was night and day. Short players that were good on regular courts became stars on that court.
Casady1
(2,133 posts)you would never say a trans women is a women in a physical v competition. I played for 5 years 3 games a day 5 days a week with the Rookie of the year in the first Women's professional league. She was 5'8 140 lbs of muscle and a great shooter. I played around 2,000 games with her. She was a much better shooter than me and I set hundreds of picks for her. I was 5'10 and 165lbs. I was quicker and if I wanted to I could back her down and dominate her physically.
I was a decent player and I could dominate her. She was the Rookie of the year and her name is Sandra Smallwood and she is in the Belmont college HOF.
That will tell you the difference in men and women. The trans people have to sit out sports or still compete with men. It is ludicrous to say that they can compete.
iemanja
(57,771 posts)who compete for a living, not pick up games around the block.
Lucid Dreamer
(589 posts)It would be interesting to compare the competitive performance of Lia Thomas while competing in Men's swimming to Lia's times swimming the same distances in Women's swimming.
How are women best served?
How is Lia best served?
How are sports best served?
vercetti2021
(10,481 posts)I'd rather we had our own sports or competed in coed sports. That way it will not effectively hurt our image further. But also take into consideration that most if not all trans women lose muscle mass and effectively get weaker in skeletal structure. I feel it more each day. I feel my muscles are not as strong as they once were. I've also shrunk in foot size from 13 to 12.
Casady1
(2,133 posts)would attract very much of an audience. Women cannot compete against men in basketball. They would get killed.
vercetti2021
(10,481 posts)Some woman are extremely strong and fast.
LiberatedUSA
(1,666 posts)…Brock Lesnar and let them find out.
Casady1
(2,133 posts)in the same league.
iemanja
(57,771 posts)Men's times are just faster.
Casady1
(2,133 posts)Lucid Dreamer
(589 posts)It will be interesting to see if Lia's performance will wane over time.
Maybe a waiting period would work.
Maybe it won't make much difference in the long run.
To me it doesn't make much difference. I love to compete in many sports. But I'm not good at any right now. Too old. I just like to play.
I'm also not much of a sports "fan" so this is more of a thought problem.
I'm interested in the "fairness" aspect.
Ohio Joe
(21,898 posts)If we focused more on academics rather than sports instead of the other way around, this would not even be a question.
sports is entertainment. No one pays to watch someone study.
Takket
(23,742 posts)Class 1 could be people with averages times the coincide with the times males put up. Class 2 could be people with averages time that coincide with what women put up. So obviously each class is going to have basically all men or women, but sex/gender would technically have nothing to do with it, only your actual times, and if a woman is putting up times as fast or nearly as fast as the people in class 1, she gets bumped up to compete in class 1?
just as an example, i looked up the 2020 olympic freestyle swimming events.
the slowest man was 48.1 seconds
the fastest woman was 51.96
So maybe you set the class 1 vs class 2 dividing line at 50 seconds??? Although I already see the problem though that I'm sure there are a slew of men that swim right around 50 second freestyles, and they would basically take up all the class 2 slots and you wouldn't see any women at all.............
eh, i don't know........... i mean you could make the trans woman compete with the men if she's just too good to compete against the women, but would she feel singled out by that? WOuld she rather be with her female peers? Or maybe she'd like facing the men? I'm sure different people would have different feelings, which is why i was hoping to uncouple sex/gender from it all with my class 1 and 2 thing. It's hard..........
LiberatedUSA
(1,666 posts)You’ve got your 1st class and 2nd class people. Gender need not apply.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)You will get the slowest man sandbagging a bit to go 49.9 and the competition will be over which slower man can time his race the best giving us a mens JV squad.
LiberatedUSA
(1,666 posts)…the 1st and 2nd Class system?
I mean…ok…
Takket
(23,742 posts)Slow down knowing he could not win class 1 but could dominate class 2. It’s a good point.
iemanja
(57,771 posts)Your proposal assumes they are based on cis women vs. cis men, but that's not the landscape we are talking about. As more transwomen compete, the average female scores will go up.
I agree it's a hard question. You don't want to discriminate against transpeople, but cis women could end up getting screwed.
Dr. Strange
(26,058 posts)It's just going to be a group of men and women who aren't as fast/strong as the more elite Class 1 athletes. And people generally aren't going to care about the Class 2 competitions.
When it's divided between male and female, you get more interest. People might be willing to see who the fastest woman is. But they aren't really going to care who the fastest person who can't run the mile under 4:30 is.
questionseverything
(11,861 posts)Women fought long and hard to play competitive sports….that shouldn’t be taken away
Casady1
(2,133 posts)that is 4 seconds difference which is huge. If you trans you still have to compete with the men.
iemanja
(57,771 posts)Especially if some men start to transition to women specifically in order to win. Given the cutthroat competitiveness of Olympic caliber athletes, it is a possibility.
I don't know what the answer is, but it's not going away anytime soon.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)Sports should be split by sex to give females a level playing field against other females because the differences between the sexes are physiological and not cultural.
Cultural things, like what bathrooms we use or what pronouns we use should be distinguished by gender, to respect everyones gender identity.
It really is that simple.
WhiskeyGrinder
(27,074 posts)Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)An open division in which anyone, regardless of sex or gender can compete. And you have a limited division open to anyone with two X chromosomes.
Iggo
(49,968 posts)Next!
Bucky
(55,334 posts)... and focus on sports cooperation instead. If we coould come up with games where we can all be winners, it would provide an economic boom to the trophy making industry. And that's more jobs for Americans, dammit!
Competitive sport isn't kindergarten. People earn their livings at it.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)Will things finally be truly equal when every record, men's and women's, is held by a person with XY chromosomes?