Mormonism is NO different than any other religion or club

[Taverner]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by REP (a host of the General Discussion forum).

ALL religions believe what many might call "non-standard" beliefs. Virgin births, prophets riding to heaven on winged horses, Red Sea parting, etc.

Many religions have secret rituals. IN many cases, they are the same rituals. Freemasonry and E Clampus Vitus have similar secret rituals, and Mormonism and Freemasonry have almost the SAME rituals.

So pointing out that Romney has different beliefs just means we weren't raised by them.

I guarantee if you explained Catholocism to an Extraterrestrial they would think YOU were crazy.

[cthulu2016]

1. If it pleases you to think so then think so

You obviously don't know much about LDS

"So pointing out that Romney has different beliefs just means we weren't raised by them."

Yes. So what?

Is this your defense for the Confederate flag, also?

We all get our beliefs from somewhere. And not all beliefs are equally good. It sucks that bad people got that way through culture or genetics, but they did.

That does not negate the notion of good and bad.

[Taverner]

4. I've studied it extensively

And yes, Joseph Smith was a con man, a horse thief, and a 33rd Degree Mason. Brigham Young was a 32nd Degree Mason. Wonder where they got their ceremonies?

Of course stealing ceremonies and gods is nothing new. Christianity borrowed heavily from Mithras, Zoastrianism and Horus. Later, when Rome went Christian, they just converted all the pagan priests, holidays and rituals to Christian ones. The Vestal Virgins became the nuns, Pontifus Maximus became Pope, and so on...

Even Ancient Judaism stole the god Yahweh from the Semetic Pantheon of gods.

As weird as the Mormon's ceremonies are, nothing beats simulated cannibalism (Christianity)

[cthulu2016]

34. You are missing that weird is subjective

You are trying to measure aberrance by an objective standard, which misses the point.

Aberrant is a relative concept. The fact that Mormons are incredibly weird ***by the standards of America*** is a reasonable thing for someone to note and weigh in the context of whether a devoted adherent of something is a plausible president.

Mormons are outsiders, intentionally. They are separate from American society intentionally. They are weird for the sake of being weird. They chose to set themselves far apart from the American mainstream.

That doesn't make them bad people, intrinsically, but it does make them weird.

You cannot say that LDS is no weirder than Catholicism because weird is a subjective standard.

Both are equally false, but they are not equally weird. Except to an alien. But aliens don't vote so it really doesn't matter what their perspective is.

[Taverner]

39. I am trying really hard not to alienate the believers here...

But I lump them all into the category called "Unproven" and "Made Up"

[geardaddy]

101. The Amish are outsiders intentionally, too.

[loli phabay]

105. yup lots of groups intentionally live outside of so called normal society

Theres probuably hundreds of religious groups and ethnic groups who like to be on the outside.

[lalalu]

124. That's their choice and fine with me.

Just don't try to be president of a society you choose not be part of. It is as strange as priests counseling married couples.

[cthulu2016]

106. And I am not eager to have an Amish president. Bigoted me.

Being such a bigot, I view being entirely outside the mainstream of American life, and indifference to national and world affairs, to be a negative trait in a President.

[riderinthestorm]

109. Maybe I'm going out on a limb by saying that there's no way any Amish would ever run nt

[geardaddy]

129. I wouldn't either. I'm just pointing out that they live outside the mainstream

even more than Mormons, but they don't seem to be running for office to control the rest of us.

[struggle4progress]

2. In any case, I'd guess it's a political loser to go after Romney's religion

Issues, that made Americans grossly uncomfortable with early Mormonism, like polygamy, must have been largely resolved before statehood was granted in 1896

[Taverner]

10. It's a cheap shot - like doing standup consisting of nothing but dick jokes

I don't think the Mormons are some a secret cabal hell bent on ruling the world - well at least not any more than any OTHER religion is...

[WinkyDink]

51. I don't think mainstream Christians seek a Theocracy, though sure, what religion wouldn't want to be

the only one?

You are wrong, however, about the Mormons. Why else do you think they have it as a MISSION to note and posthumously baptize AS a Mormon EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN? Why else do you think they go on proseletyzing MISSIONS to France, which is already rather civilized?

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-803776

It is ironic that the Mormon Church that plans to control the United States and world governments is based upon false premises. The Mormon Conspiracy has a review the documentation that proves the fraudulent nature of the church, and begins with an analysis of Joseph Smith’s Book of Mormon. This book is claimed by the church to be the only true gospel and although the church uses the King James version of the Bible, it is asserted by them to have been altered by man over the centuries. The Mormon Church began its history with a conspiracy by Joseph Smith to fool the local people with his book. This has continued to the present.

[obamanut2012]

73. Excellent post

[jerseyjack]

57. Yeah? Go on the internet tubes and google" Mormon White Horse Prophesy."

Maybe Mitt believes he is the savior. Notice Mitt does not have specifics for his goals. Is that because he believes God will guide him after he is elected?

[Taverner]

58. Look up the Jewish Messiah, or the Second Coming of Christ, or the Madhi...

All religions preach about someone who will make everything right.

[obamanut2012]

79. Except this is an actual battle plan

There is a reason why "Lying for the Lord" is LDS doctrine. The end justifies the means, including lying to people, murdering Gentiles to steal their children and wealth and frame Indians for the deeds, segregating AA blood in LDS hospitals until just a few years ago, etc.

I won't even get into their whole LGBT hate/Prop 8/Women as galactic brood mares/anti women civil rights/baptising the dead/taking over BSA stuff.

[lalalu]

127. Thank You

Some of these people pretend Mormons are just some quaint little benevolent group.

[lalalu]

128. Ins't that what got us into trouble with Bush?

His hearing orders from God and thinking he had some divine goal. We can't take another one in the white house.

[lalalu]

3. The difference is that their religion has racism built into it.

I am not saying racism didn't exist in other religions but they did have internal fights over such issues. With Mormons it was and in my view still is a basic tenet of their beliefs. Voting for a Mormon is no different than voting for the KKK.

In the end I agree that all religions are just cults but some of them are more hideous than others.

[Taverner]

5. Lots of religions have racism built in

Would you say voting for Harry Reid is no different than voting for the KKK?

[riderinthestorm]

15. Harry Reid has explicitly endorsed the separation of church and state. So has Biden (like JFK)

Ryan and Rmoney have made no such statements. Their governance and actions indicate they do not believe in that sharp line.

[Taverner]

16. That's a Republican thing. Not necesarrily a Mormon one.

[riderinthestorm]

37. If you're going to use Harry Reid as the Mormon standard then its an important point

He's made it clear he strongly supports a bright line between his personal beliefs and a secular government (like Biden and JFK and others have been explicit on this).

A recent example: "

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says he believes marriage should be between a man and a woman ..."

snip

The Nevada Democrat says he believes that people should marry whomever they want, and that, in his words, "it's no business of mine if two men or two women want to get married."

Reid says his children and grandchildren already take marriage equality as a given and that their view is a glimpse of the future."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/09/harry-reid-gay-marriage_n_1504839.html

[Taverner]

46. Then we have a problem with Romney because he is against the SOCAS

Separation of Church and State (not enough room to type that out)

And that alone is reason to reject him

Hell, I would be against a UNITARIAN who argues against that separation!

[riderinthestorm]

63. Sure but that's informed by his RELIGION and its dogma that a Mormon US president

can and will transform the US into a Mormon country.

Here we are - back to square one.

If Rmoney isn't against the SOCAS (I've been scolded for using acronyms even though they are soooo much easier), then its imperative to examine his faith as a voter should look at all aspects of a potential candidate.

And doing so shouldn't bring down a rain of epithets about a person being some kind of religious bigot or hater or divisive or whatever.

[Taverner]

66. And other religions don't inform the same dogma to their parishioners?

[riderinthestorm]

82. Do you know of any other mainstream religions with a White Horse Prophecy these days?

I don't but am willing to be educated if someone else can come up with a prophet whose going to transform the United States specifically, into a theocracy.

[loli phabay]

90. id say the hidden iman comes close but thats turning the whole of mankind

[lalalu]

56. Yes, I have always felt he

was not comfortable having a black president either. It is why the democrats in congress have been weak and lame in their support of the president.

[Taverner]

59. Sadly, you're probably right...

[chimpymustgo]

6. And most (if not all) of them have sexism built in. (n/t)

[Taverner]

11. Yep. Even Buddhism and Bahai.

[lalalu]

159. Very true

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. You know, Slavery, yes SLAVERY was justified using Deuteronomy

by the Southern Baptist Convention, so was Separate but Equal and all the poll taxes.

To this day this is exactly how many of our most fundie Christian denominations, including LDS, justify the hate of the gay.

No, this smacks of the red phone\white phone comments before the 1960 election.

[lalalu]

61. Yes, and as I stated they have had internal fights over these issues.

To this day racism is still a a part of most religions. The difference is that there are at least people trying to combat it. In fact the growing secularism in America is due to people rejecting their views on many issues.

If anyone thinks Mormons have rejected their tenets in any shape or form then they deluded themselves. They are one of the most hateful cults in America.

I don't belong to any religion because of these issues.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. Include the LSD in that internal fight

and you go on and create the other. What would you like to do? Now be honest, the way you are talking.

Yes, they are weird... so is every other religion that you did not grow in.

Yes they are fundamentalist, but they are having those fights already. They are handling it the way any religion does when they start to have that fight, they throw people out... but they already are having that fight. Sooner or later that fight will grow large.

But you keep telling yourself they are "the other."

[lalalu]

92. If you think saying black people cannot enter heaven

is just weird then you need to review their beliefs about black people. There is a reason Utah is one of the whitest states in America. The whole state hung out the no black people sign. Mormons are racist to the core.

There is a difference between individuals with racist views who try to influence a religion and a whole religion built around racism that makes it a mission to teach their racism. Mormons have and still make it their mission to preach racism and sexism.

Even in their version of heaven they would hang out a no black people sign. They even want a klan rally in the afterlife.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. At this point this is not about them

but about you. Really.

There are ways to react to things, and creating the other is not the right way.

Be as critical as you want, but be careful of that line.

[lalalu]

121. This about Mormons and your attempt to

excuse their racism. Also, do not threaten me for speaking the truth about their racist views.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. But it is not JUST MORMONS

every major denomination has elements of racism. After all, all these religions ARE TRIBALISTIC and are there to evolve as part of the tribe. So why wouldn't a small one have elements of it? Com'on, it is almost a given.

So what would you like to do? Let's air it. you would like to go back to the official policies of the US Government to openly oppress them? Is that it?

I am not justifying their racism...yes, they are racist, and they hate the gay, but you are justifying yours.

Mirror, mirror on the wall, kind of a thing.

[lalalu]

131. Every groups has elements of racism.

The democrats have racists just like republicans. Based on your views there are no differences between them and policies at all. Based on your views there would be no difference in voting for a democrat, republican, or the Aryan Brotherhood.

After all they each have racist members right? According to you there are no degrees of influence of racism on their views and policies.
Fortunately most people know the difference. Mormons are very close to the Aryan Brotherhood.

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. Based on my views

I am not going to create the other just because. You go right ahead.

I know what happens when that is done.

Yes, I will fight the LSD when they start doing their hate the gay in the political arena (and they should be taxed for that shit), but I am not going to make blanket statements. You are.

Nor am I going to vote against Romney because he is a Mormon, but because of HIS POLICIES. THey are not just wrong, but wrong headed.

I know what creating the other (which for the record SOME mormons do), leads to. My family was personally touched by that, we call that the Holocaust. I also debriefed kids who came from Guatemala, who saw their parents killed by dead squads, their crime, they were Maya.

So let's be clear, do you want the US Government to go back to it's policy of open religious persecution?

[lalalu]

150. "do you want the US Government to go back to it's policy of open religious persecution"

If anything religions in America have been protected way more than they should be. They still are and Mormons are one of the protected groups.

Yes, i know Mormons were hated by others and faced discrimination. It is also true that Mormons helped to generate the hate and intolerance that deflected back on them. Their history of hate and violence followed them to Utah and it continues to be the foundation they were built on.

Mormons slaughtered many innocent people traveling west. Read about Mountain Meadows.The only reason they weren't prosecuted was because they helped to keep the west white and after the war freed slaves out. They blocked the formation of Oklahoma as a haven state for freed slaves Native Americans and put out the big not welcome sign.

Your family experienced the Holocaust but are still white and would be welcomed by Mormons. The Mayans kids you talk about would also be welcomed by Mormons. You state this is about me but it is more about your saying Mormons are nice to everyone else but black people so to hell with black people.


The problem with Mormons is they can't take what they dish out. Just like all the other racist white organizations playing the victim.

[riderinthestorm]

9. And sexism. Even in the Mormon afterlife, women are second class citizens

At least in the other monotheistic religions women ascend to heaven the same as men.

[Taverner]

14. I don't think Islam lets women into heaven

Not sure tho

[riderinthestorm]

25. They do. nt

[Taverner]

41. thx for the correction

[loli phabay]

50. yeah but the hadith talk explicitly about what those women are for

And i mean its pretty explicit.

[riderinthestorm]

72. The credibility of hadith is an enormous, hot and difficult topic

With so many various scholars disputing what is real or not is crazy.

I will go with the Quran thank you very much.

[loli phabay]

87. and yet the imans use the hadith as do many muslims

I go with what adherents of a religion believe their holy books mean rather than third parties.

[loli phabay]

24. yeah but in the fundie muslim heaven they have to service the martyr with 71 other women

The op has it right all faiths and beliefs are strange to outsiders whether its cannabilism animals having spirits parting of seas or the walking hamburger is sacred.

[riderinthestorm]

27. No. They don't. nt

[loli phabay]

31. well you better go tell the fundies that they dont believe it.

[lalalu]

75. True

[Nye Bevan]

13. The Democratic Party also has a very racist past.

We should judge institutions by their current beliefs and policies.

[Nye Bevan]

7. Romney believes in the golden tablets. Obama believes that Jesus Christ turned water into wine.

Joe Biden believes in the Immaculate Conception. How would one rank these beliefs in terms of credibility?

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Yup pointed this out the other day

this is no different than the fear of a catholic in the WH in 1960

OH MY the WHITE telephone... the POPE will run US Policy.

[aletier_v]

18. I suggest you go live in eastern idaho for a few years.

and get some hands-on experience.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Of what, that we have extreme religions?

Color me surprised, really.

[lalalu]

160. On reflection I see what you are saying

Your family was affected by the Holocaust and persecuted for religious reasons. I can understand your stance when you feel the same is being done to Mormons. I still disagree and feel this is different.

Even with the Holocaust there were racial components. Jewish people were not seen as being of "pure" European or Aryan blood.

Mormons are really into the whole concept of racial lines. It is why they control places like ancestry.com to know every persons ancestral line. They fully embrace it as a tenet of what places people should occupy on earth and after they die. That to me is a dangerous philosophy and too close to white supremacy groups.

[Taverner]

32. Eastern Idaho is no different that parts of Rural Missisippi

Snake Handlers, Primitive Baptists, any group of Pentecostals...

[lalalu]

120. Idaho and Utah

[WinkyDink]

23. It is considerably different. JFK wasn't a Bishop; he wasn't "fulfiliing" a prophecy for a Theocracy

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. And your point?

Jaysus on a stick, the comments from the RW in 1959 were the same you are making right now!

For the record, I am not voting for Mitt, but that is because I fundamentally disagree with his policies, not his religion.

Try it sometime.

[WinkyDink]

60. Oh, "Jaysus" to you, too.

I was around in 1959; I know exactly what the comments were then.

SO HERE IS MY POINT: ROMNEY IS A THEOCRAT. JFK WAS NOT.
SUCCINCT ENOUGH FOR YOU?

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Whatever, you go on create the other

go for it.

What would you like to do with the other now that you have created it?

Have fun with that mental exercise. I don't have to imagine.

And YES IT IS THE SAME DAMN COMMENTS. THE FRACKING HISTORIC RECORD IS DAMN CLEAR ON THAT!

[Occulus]

135. I'll go with what I'm hearing from former LDS members

and they tell me you are as wrong as the day is long. They tell me a devout mormon President would be a Bad Thing, and are informed by their actual experiences as members of the mormon church.

I will listen to them first. I will also dismiss what you have to say on the subject. They are 100%- 1000%- more informed on the subject than you or I will ever be.

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. And I will vote against Romney based on HIS POLICIES

not his religion.

Clear enough?

[slackmaster]

52. An LDS bishop isn't even remotely similar to an RCC bishop

Mormon bishops aren't paid for their services, and the appointment is temporary. Catholic bishops are appointed for life and are paid a salary.

[WinkyDink]

65. NOT THE POINT. The POINT is that Romney IS in his Church hierarchy.

[Taverner]

68. EVERY MORMON is in their church hierarchy

IN it's early days, Brigham Young likened the LDS church as a beehive, trying to cultivate the hive mind

[WinkyDink]

74. And did he think of himself as the Queen Bee?

[lalalu]

134. Good One

[obamanut2012]

91. Absolutely not true

Especially for females.

[slackmaster]

81. Not any more. Romney's term as a bishop expired many years ago, before he became a politician.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/mitt-romney-mormon-bishop_n_1386592.html

[CreekDog]

80. He was a Stake President which is a similar role to an RCC Bishop

Similar levels of authority.

If you're saying one doesn't have authority or responsibility unless they are on the payroll, you're misleading people about the role or you're misinformed about the role.

But your continued defense, more than I've ever seen you do for Food Stamps, for universal healthcare, for a litany of progressive causes, is noted.

[slackmaster]

85. The operative verb here being "was"

I have plenty of reasons not to vote for Mitt Romney, all of which have to do with his PRESENT policies. His past duties in his church, and the official professed positions of his church, are not issues for me at all.

[obamanut2012]

89. It is an almost all-powrful leadership position

Including pastoral care, and determining who is fit for an endowment, and giving medical care orders.

They have much more power over individuals than a Catholic Bishop or even a parish priest.

[lalalu]

117. Exactly

[lalalu]

116. You need to brush up on history.

During the 1960s many Catholics were starting to break away from lockstep following the church. Many Catholics were engaging in social issues and change. There was a reaching across the aisle to different people and views. It was a major reason why Kennedy won the black vote. Mormons were not changing at the time and continue to adhere to their racist views.

Romney will never reach across to black people because Mormons still have their racist views as a main tenet in their religion. The rightwng racists and Mormon racism are a perfect match.

Kennedy was a Catholic who got the black vote and presidents of other religions also got the black vote. Romney is a Mormon who won't and no one in their right mind is fooled about their views of black people.

[WinkyDink]

17. Why is Catholicism always the default comparison? Anglicanism began over a divorce, FGS.

[Taverner]

21. It's that whole numbers thing

Catholic Church being the largest Christian Denomination

[obamanut2012]

84. Scientologists always use the RC as the default, too

To prove that CoS isn't a cult.

[Marr]

19. Of course. But we're talking about politics.

Hinduism is no weirder than Christianity either, but try getting right-wing Christians to vote for a Hindu. They won't.

It's worth pointing out specifics of the Mormon faith in an election, not because it's objectively any more irrational and weird than other religions, but because it's a major, major weakness for a right-wing candidate who has to appeal to bigots.

[WinkyDink]

26. Animal gods are "no weirder"?

[Marr]

29. Than a magical zombie carpenter born from a coupling of god and teenage girl?

?

[Taverner]

35. It's all strange

And it's all a rerun.

Mormonism stole from the Freemasons.

Christianity stole from Mithras and Horus.

Judaism stole from the Semetic Pantheon.

Calvinism stole from Islam.

The list goes on...

[Marr]

45. Sure, and they were all equally irrational.

All religious beliefs are equally irrational, though the less familiar always seem more "weird".

[Taverner]

48. Yep

[WinkyDink]

69. Yes, actually (BTW, Christ wasn't a carpenter; Joseph was.)

[obamanut2012]

94. Thank you for saying this

There is no proof that, if there was an historical Jesus, that he was a carpenter. Since his father was, he may have been, but he may also have something else.

Also, resurrection was rebirth, so Jesus wouldn't have been a zombie, who are the undead.

For the record, I am a non believer.

[Marr]

115. The Bible describes him as a carpenter or stonemason.

And resurrection was not "rebirth". There was no second womb involved in the story of Jesus rising again after three days, nor he was made an infant anew.

[Marr]

99. Because *CARPENTER* was the preposterous part?

For the record, the Bible describes him as a carpenter or stonemason.

[Politicub]

20. Which is why I sent a link to the vid to several people

In the name of religious diversity, I wanted to enrich people's lives by introducing this peek at Mormonism.

I've always been curious about what goes on in the temple, and I'm sure others are, too.

[Taverner]

28. That I understand

For further reading, check out the Rosicrucians, the Masons and the Scottish Rite. You'll see lots of paralells.

My own hypothesis is that they were all (including the Mormons) trying to find a way to reconcile Bedouin law with modernity. And it's impossible to do that without replacing large sections of text.

[Aerows]

22. I have plenty of reasons to detest Mitt Romney

and his religion doesn't even come into them. He's an entitled, fraudulent bully that lies every time his mouth opens. Why would I expect him to be anymore honest in his religious life than he is in any other facet of his life?

His adherence to his religious beliefs are probably just as fraudulent as everything else about the man. He doesn't talk about his religion because even he probably has no idea what he believes about it. He doesn't know what he believes about anything else.

[WinkyDink]

36. You are completely off-base re: Mitt's Mormonism. He believes; he is a Bishop; he speaks of his

mission; he has performed Church duties.

"He doesn't talk about his religion because" not only because that is not what American politicians do, but also because Mormonism wouldn't fly AT ALL with Evangelicals, Billy Graham notwithstanding.

[Aerows]

44. I have a very hard time with Mitt's credibility

I figure if he will lie about everything else, he probably doesn't strongly believe in his religion, either. That's just my point of view; you may be right, he may believe it. We'll never really know though because he can't open his mouth without changing his mind or being dishonest. That's why I take any "beliefs" that Mitt Romney claims he has with a grain of salt.

[WinkyDink]

55. He walks the walk. Believe what you will.

[Aerows]

64. And you could well be right

I think we can both agree, however, that he has no business even being in the running for POTUS! He would probably start WW III ten minutes after the election results if he wins. That man can't open his mouth without bungling something, pissing someone off or just being flat out liar.

The thought of him in office terrifies me.

[sellitman]

38. ALL Religions are screwy IMHO

Some more than others.

Mormonism sure is a weirdo though.

[lalalu]

132. Now this is a post I can agree with.

Personally I don't see a purpose for them and they don't make sense. They believe in an all knowing, all seeing, and powerful entity. Yet they need a middleman (church) and must go through bureaucracy to contact this entity.

[loli phabay]

139. sounds like the catholic church to me

[lalalu]

143. Catholic Chuch and every religion I know of.

If God is all around then just speak to the being. Why contact a priest, preacher, rabbi, monk, ........it seems like a waste of time. As if we don't deal with enough bureaucracy.

[loli phabay]

153. mayby its like a cellphone plan and theres no roaming

[lalalu]

157. That's funny

[Angry Dragon]

40. It is not the beliefs, it is what they do about their beliefs

[Taverner]

42. This is true...

And Romney has proven that he will act like a bully and a psychopath.

No religion needed to draw that conclusion.

[riderinthestorm]

49. He's also demonstrably lived out his faith's tenets that women are not equal to men

during both his governorship and his tenure at Bain.

Sorry but trying to dismiss his religion is nuts. Its clearly a factor.

[Taverner]

54. I think all religions are nuts!!!

But I'm a Positive Atheist.

[slackmaster]

43. You couldn't torture me into telling you what we do at the Possum Lodge

IT'S NONE OF YOUR BEESWAX!

[loli phabay]

118. gotta ask wtf is a possum lodge ive seen beaver lodges in the woods but never a possum one

[Moonwalk]

47. You are correct, but you are also totally missing the point....

...of why we must and SHOULD point out Romney's very different beliefs from mainstream Christianity. And no, it's not because Mormons are better or worse in their beliefs than most other religions, or because their religion is decidedly racist, or anything like that. If the history of bitter fights over slavery, segregation, women's rights and gays with only religious bullshit to support the viability of such inequality has proved anything it's that most religions are bigoted and have evil beliefs.

But here's the point: the religious right wants a leader in the White House that espouses THEIR version of Christianity. If we point out that Romney's religion is most decidedly not THEIR version of Christianity, if we point out to them that Romney's religion has him swearing--SWEARING--not to maintain a separation of church and state meaning that he would turn the U.S. Mormon if he could find a way to do it...If we point this all out to those Christians who shake in terror at the thought of anyone NOT of their religion being president and taking away their rights to practice their religion as they want to practice it...

Then they may not vote for Romney. Simple as that. THAT is the point. The whole point. The ONLY point. Any chance, however slim, of making evangelical, right-wing Christians run screaming from Romney--write in someone else or vote for someone else or not vote at all...that is well worth posting a video that details the Mormon religion, what it believes, and how different it is from mainstream Christianity.

Do you get it now?

[Taverner]

62. But where do you draw the line?

[The Magistrate]

53. The Difference Is Age, Sir

The, let us call them, odd beliefs, of the Abrahamic religions, of Buddhism and Hinduism, date back to ancient days. Their origins are shrouded, and certainly arose in a pre-scientific, pre-Enlightenment era, where people had a very shaky grasp on the mechanics of the natural world. In such a context things like prophets rising to heaven and parting a great sea's waters, raisings of the dead, and a whole variety of miracles, could be readily believed, and having been believed, they come down to the present day hallowed by ancient usage, benefiting from a sort of 'grandfather clause', of the sort that wil exempt from some new regulation a chemical that has been used as an additive for many years prior.

Mormonism, however, is a recent concoction. It's whole history is laid bare. That its founder was a grifter is an established fact of history. That he made it all up is painfully obvious. Thus there is a natural question concerning the people who profess belief in this fabric of lies told by a con-man not much more than a hundred fifty years ago. the question being, to put it bluntly: 'The fuck were you thinking!?!'

The time, by the way, is not so far back as one might suppose. About fifteen years ago, we had a neighbor who had been born in 1910 ( she sort of adopted out daughter as an honorary grand-daughter ). Had she met, as a child, a person in their eighties, that person would have been a teenager when Smith was riding high at Nauvoo....

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Mormonism has elements of the Abrahamaic religions

as well as other things... it is a mishmash of a few things.

That said, age is important, but to say that we should be going where many here insist into going, is not just silly, but smells of the other.

It is dangerous.

Now to age... well young religions tend to be more muscular in pushing believes... than older religions... but also they have been persecuted. Should we go back to that? It surely reads like some folks here would love to do that. And if that is the wish, I will stand in the way of doing that shit.

[The Magistrate]

76. Sure, Ma'am, But It is Obviously a Magpie's Collection Of Baubles And Shine

It does not grow organically out of the thing, and the seams and cracks are very obvious.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Becuase you are not part of it

I will take my own, and I really annoyed a Rabbi doing that one day. But we were poking holes into the believes of the major religions.

A man who was spoken to by god in the form of a bush... ok, what was Moses high on? (Shrooms most likely, assuming Moses existed)

Following with the same story line... Moses was left on the river to be picked up by the Princes... or was that a Babylonian story, can't really keep things straight.

The song of Songs, one of the most beautiful lyrical poems in the Bible, or was that an Egyptian poem of 1000 years before?

Then there is the story of Noah... and the flood, which we actually found evidence off, near Ur... and once again it is originally a babylonian story.

The first kind mentioned is David, a shepherd small time figure of probably the 10th century BCE... nothing like a powerful king or anything... oh and the Exodus is a nice story made of whole cloth based on several legends of the period.

Oh and we know who commissioned these stories... King Josiah, one of the last ones, around the seventh century BCE, so all those stories reflect the geopolitics of the era.

[The Magistrate]

103. When the Lying Grifter Kicked It Off, Ma'am, No One Was Part Of It

Nor does being born into a family sharing a belief excuse a person from employing ordinary critical faculties of intelligence; by no means does everyone 'born to a religion' hew to it in adult life.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. But we are not talking of over 100 years ago

are we?

Last time I checked the calendar reads 2012... and every member of the Mormon Church today was born into it.

For the record, when King Josiah finally created his state religion, the one I follow, sort off today, 6000+ years ago, people really were sort of not born into it either, but were converted by the force of the sword.

[The Magistrate]

123. Josiah Is A Good Deal More Recent Than That, Ma'am

You might want to check your chronologies....

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. He was still the one who commisioned it

and we know it was FOUR GROUPS of scribes.... it was a STATE religion. Heresy, not given by God.

And that is my point Sir.

So it was commissioned by a King to keep people in line. Here we had a huckster creating a religion, Then we have a more recent one created on a dare...

To the believers it matters little.

[The Magistrate]

133. Raised By The Priests, Ma'am, So they Say

If recollection serves, he had not even reached puberty when the forged book 'discovered' in renovating the temple was presented to him....

But again, the point under discussion is not that there are frauds and crimes in the history of various religions, but why these stand out in consideration of Mormonism. They do, in the case of the stripling, because it has no cloaking of antiquity and ancient ancestral practice, and the matter of its origin is laid bare in newsprint.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. So... every religion has a starting point

In my mind religions at this time are maladaptive, but that is another matter, all of them.

[The Magistrate]

148. And How Far back that is, Ma'am, Matters To How they Are Perceived

"Truth, in religion, is that opinion which has survived."

[snooper2]

140. jesus was a grifter too, you should read more

LOL...

My distinguished judgy

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. Well let's be accurate

not actually Jesus, Heresy I know, we have little evidence he existed... now the apostles on the other hand.

If we are to be fair, the myth of Mythra sounds awfully familiar.

[The Magistrate]

146. That is An Arguable Point, Sir

Smith has convictions for it on public record...

[snooper2]

149. Let's put it another way, they all pray, they all have churches/temples/synagogues

They all have fantastical stories and they can't say if their supreme god/gods/beings are made up of matter or not.


I think that pretty much puts all religions under the same header. That would be - Mythology

[The Magistrate]

151. True Enough, Sir, and Not under Dispute Here

The question is why the nonesense of Mormonism strikes many as somewhat different, and the reason is its youth, that it has arisen in a closely documented period of history, and cannot trace back for thousands of years, as its senior competitors can. They run back to periods in which people can be readily excused for believing nonesense, and in which little solid information about actual origins of beliefs and practices is available. Mormonism arose in a more modern period, where there is little excuse, and the mechanisms of its origin are bare for all to see.

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. It is actually simple

humans have a need to believe. And quite frankly modern quantum physics, to the average person, is quite frankly not just alien but weird.

Religions, all of them, have an internal logic. (For the record QM does as well, but the math is really, and I mean this, REALLY HARD TO UNDERSTAND) so most humans default to religious belief. As crazy as it sounds to have a man talking to a bush, or another rising from the death three days after he died (Horus started that shit, not Christ), they all are internally consistent and really non changing.

This is why a religion rises. This innate need to believe something higher than yourself.

Religions and science try to answer the same fundamental question. WHERE did we come from? and the other one, WHY?

Yes, Mormomism came to be after the enlightenment, in an era when most people really did not even know their numbers and letters and when witches, warlocks and all that were still ever present. In fact, many areas of the world still fit this description to a T... they happen to be regions where religions have a higher hold than others where more secular thinking has taken hold.

The US is becoming more secular, but it is still the MOST religious nation of OECD economies. THat is a fact Jack, you can bank on it. So yes, why we have had not one, not two, but several denominations rise over the course of the last 200+ years since the rise of the country as an independent nation. Let's not start with those that came and at times disappeared, in the Colonial period.

My personal favorite is Hubbard's little exercise. Don't tell the faithful, but that was on a dare with Heinlein.

I will repeat this about all religions at this point, especially due to that nonsense about "domion over the Earth and the creatures of the Earth." (Deuteronomy), at this point, they are all maladaptive. And yes Eastern religions have the equivalent. Yup, all of them, but we as a species need to overcome (hard to do, I think in this sense we might be domed as a species), this intense tribalism, which religion is part of...

[CreekDog]

88. you shouldn't criticize someone for telling the truth about a religion

you're setting up a ridiculous thing.

to tolerate a religion, we must not criticize it and criticizing it, as Magistrate has done, is simply talking about the facts of that religion.

would you like us to be silent and not comment on religion? should we not inform others of a religion's history and beliefs?

[obamanut2012]

97. This -- telling the truth is not a slander

[riderinthestorm]

104. Oh Nadin's not accusing DUers of slander. Its accusations of Nazis in their quest to demonize Jews

That's the comparison she's making if you start discussing the various religions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Talk about the history all you want

I asked Magistrate another question and I will aks this of you as well. Should we go back to a period when Mormoms were openly persecuted by the United States Government as policy? Because this is what some folks here seem to want. So let's air this... should we?

As to the history of mormomism, yes, Smith was a huckster, but you know what Judaism was also created as a STATE religion in the seventh Century BCE and commissioned by the KING. I know Heresy.

[Taverner]

112. All religions dream to have political power

That is why I reject them all - and even if I believed in a god - I would reject religion

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. Religion has it's evolutionary (as social construct) uses

but at this point I think we reached the mal adaptive stage.

Let me explain, it provided the tribe, and yes they originated with tribes, the social glue to evolve.

But at this point, given how they are used to push things that are killing us, global warming, dominion over the earth, they have become quite maladaptive.

[riderinthestorm]

114. Then you know Mormon's also did their fair share of persecuting from the Mountain Meadow massacre

to other atrocities committed by the founding members.

But beyond a simple historical discussion, a theological discussion and critique doesn't make one into some kind of bigot no matter how much you want that to be so.

[CreekDog]

142. No, Magistrate made observations about Mormonism and you put words into his mouth

saying that he was saying we should go back to the time when religions were persecuted.

now, do you really want to go over the ridiculous thing *you* said?

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. Whatever

have a good day.

And I notice you refuse to answer the question, so let me restate it. Should we go back to an official policy of religious persecution?

[CreekDog]

147. No. But why didn't you ask me when I stopped beating my wife?

are those of us who are trying to talk about LDS teachings (and I am a proponent for describing tenets of their religion accurately here for people's information) of wanting to persecute Mormons?

i know non-Mormons who were persecuted in Utah --i don't want anybody to go through that.

who does? who are these people?

do you get upset when we talk about the religious ceremonies as odd? they are odd! communion is odd, frankly, i'm not offended when someone says it is. i'm not persecuted when someone says it is.

what is the big deal?

i lived with that religion and i HAVE A RIGHT to talk about it. the beliefs about women are horrible (many religions' have horrible beliefs about women too, to be fair...).

[Nye Bevan]

102. Mormons have to take only one guy's word for it (Joseph Smith).

Christianity has Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, along with Saint Peter and probably others.

[obamanut2012]

70. Not true -- LDS and Scientology have their own special corner

Of cult behavior for a mainstream faith tradition in the US.

There are some arguments for JW's and Seventh Day Adventists, but all of their doctrines and traditions and rituals are out in the open, and the whole "suppressed person" and blood oath and libel stuff isn't there that much.

Some more arguments for ADF and other Druid paths, as well some other Pagan paths, having secret rites, but they aren't actually secret, nor are they like LDS or CoS.

Lying for the Lord/Xenu and infiltrating the government are also things LDS and CoS have in common, too. Does any other faith path in the US have these as part of their doctrine?

LDS and CoS don't let you deep into the Elite levels of their churches unless you pay lots of money and/or are VIP and Celebs (Marie Osmond should have been excommunicated several times by now, for example, and let us all not even get into the Tom Cruise thing).

I could go on, but have other things to do.

One last thing: both Joseph Smith and Hubbard were known con men. Just an interesting point.

[slackmaster]

78. That's "suppressive person" and I am proud to be an SP2

I see very little similarity between Scientology and the LDS faith. I have a co-worker who is a Mormon. He makes a great designated driver.

[obamanut2012]

95. Lots of similarities between teh two

Enough that I often wonder if Hubbard studied Smith's strategies.

[Taverner]

110. Religion is all about reassuring people that after death, they can go on with their lives

So naturally Islamic heaven is all about water
American Christian heaven is all about money
Mormon Heaven is all about bureaucracy
And Catholic heaven is all about trumpets

I assume that COS heaven involves space ships, being that its inventor was a Sci Fi writer

[S_E_Fudd]

83. It's a cult...

Just like every other religion that enforces dogma over reason and evidence...

[slackmaster]

86. Christianity itself is a cult. It was one of many that existed at the time of Jesus.

It won the Cult Wars.

[Taverner]

108. It won by going Borg Mambo #5

A little bit of Mithras in my life
A little bit of Horus by my side
A little bit of Zoaster is all I need
A little bit of Dionysus is what I see....

[obamanut2012]

111. No it isn't

And, I say that as an atheist.

[Texas Lawyer]

96. I struggle with this issue. I agree that it would be difficult to explain Catholicism, or any

Protestant version f Christianity, or Islam, etc. to a disinterested observer in a manner that did not make some of the dogma seem illogical (or based on impossibilities and magic thinking).

With that said, it does seems as if you can make some distinctions among religious beliefs.

For example, the foundations of Scientology are not hidden by the mists of time because it was founded within the lifetime of people who are still alive. It is a religious belief system founded by a person who was also known for writing science fiction books. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone who takes comfort or support from the belief in Scientology. I presume that some ancient Greeks thought of Zeus as a real and literal figure and some probably thought of the depictions of Zeus' life as fables that taught lessons about the culture's values; I presume the same about Moses, and Jesus, and Buddha, and Mohamed, and I know that some people take comfort from their beliefs about these figures, and I feel no differently about people who take comfort from Scientology.

Yet, I also think you could compare Scientology with, for example, Unitarianism.

I think -- objectively -- Scientology IS different from Unitarianism. You can compare the origins and tenets of both belief systems and draw conclusions about the differences. Likewise, I think you can compare the beliefs of those who believe in the Neanderthal, big foot, the Gigantopithecus, the yetti, sea serpents, the Kraken, aliens, angels, plesiosaus, the Loch Ness Monster, and the Homo floresiensis, and hobbits. Some of these beliefs are more rational, some are less rational, and some of these beliefs fall somewhere between the two extreme points on that scale.

If you can distinguish Scientology from Unitarianism, then perhaps you could create a scale with one set of religious beliefs at one end and another set of religious beliefs at the other end.

Do you think you could create such a scale for religious belief systems?

If so, do you think you could put Mormonism somewhere within such a scale?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

100. "Man is the only animal to have discovered the One True God.....several of them." Mark Twain

[KamaAina]

113. Unique to the LDS Church is the oath of vengeance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_vengeance

In Mormonism, the oath of vengeance (or law of vengeance) was an oath that was made by participants in the Endowment ritual of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), in which participants vowed to pray that God would avenge the blood of the prophets Joseph Smith, Jr. and Hyrum Smith, who were assassinated in 1844 by a mob....

The oath of vengeance was an addition made to the Nauvoo Endowment under the direction of Brigham Young by 1845 in the Nauvoo Temple, soon after the 1844 death of Joseph Smith, Jr.. Participants agreed to be bound by the following oath:

"You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and to your children's children unto the third and fourth generation."...

The oath of vengeance was referenced by John D. Lee in his confession of his involvement in the Mountain Meadows massacre. The oath entered the endowment at a time when many Mormons hoped for retribution for the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum. At least one member of the LDS First Presidency understood the oath to include a personal obligation that, "if he had ever met any of those who had taken a hand in that massacre he would undoubtedly have attempted to avenge the blood of the martyrs." However, other Mormons understood the oath to require actions against the United States directly, while still others believed the oath required only prayers to God for vengeance.

Sound like a conflict with "I do solemnly swear to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States" to me.

[lalalu]

141. Mountain Meadows

is a perfect example of how violent they can be to protect their religion. Mormons kept Utah all white and all Mormon by slaughtering any non Mormons who came too close their territory. Mountain Meadows was a rare example where they had survivors and proof of what happened.

There was a push to bring them to justice for so many slaughters but it was stopped for two reasons. Mormons agreed not to enter the battle over slavery and then the civil war came. After the Civil War they were not prosecuted because they helped territories that wanted to remain all white and not allow freed slaves. They also joined in the fight to keep Oklahoma from becoming a state for freed slaves and Native Americans to own property.

There is a really ugly history of violence and racism behind Mormons and their quest to keep the west white and Utah a home for Mormons only. They still adhere to those beliefs.

[porphyrian]

125. My favorite religions are Dervishes, the people who say shit like "falafel" and pretend they're...

...possessed and statisticians.

[OldDem2012]

152. Okay...how many religions, cults, and clubs want to replace the US government with....

....a religious government headed by Mormons?

I don't know of any, do you?

That makes the Mormon organization VERY different from all other religions, cults, and clubs, in my opinion.

[loli phabay]

155. kind of like asking how many groups other than furries want a furrie president

There are elements of every religion wjo would love to be the government of the US why limit it to just mormons.

[Hamlette]

154. You are right.

I was raised an atheist in Utah. We loved to make fun of Mormons. Then I found out that Catholics believe in transubstantiation and fundamentalists think the earth is 6,000 years old. Mormons are not different and their religion is exactly what would have been produced in the US. And there are some good things about Mormons. They are not prudish about sex, at least not as much as some religions.
.
.
.
Can't think of anything else. There are Mormons of all kinds. Some I like more than others.

[Zorra]

156. Not buying. That club deliberately took away the rights of my lovely, innocent friends

and family in California. Just 4 years ago. They say they are sorry. Some of us don't believe them. I don't want to take the chance of a member of this fascist club running our country. They took it upon themselves, because of their belief that they know the absolute truth, and therefore, belief that they know what is best for everyone, to take away our rights in California. Even if you are straight, those rights are your rights also.

That totally separates the Mormon church from just being a harmless little boys club.

It's not just a harmless, benign little boys club. It deliberately hurts innocent people, did so in the recent past, and there is no reason to believe that it will not continue to do so if it is not prevented from doing so.

That Mormon "club" also overwhelmingly votes for republicans.

That Mormon "club" believes the infallible omniscient omnipotent creator of all that exists hangs out on a mythical planet called Kolob.

Heaven's Gate was an American UFO religion based in San Diego, California, founded in the early 1970s and led by Marshall Applewhite (1931–1997) and Bonnie Nettles (1927–1985).[1] On March 26, 1997, police discovered the bodies of 39 members of the group who had committed suicide[2] in order to reach what they believed was an alien space craft following the Comet Hale–Bopp, which was at its brightest.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28religious_group%29

People's Temple was a religious organization founded in 1955 by Jim Jones that, by the mid-1970s, included over a dozen locations in California including its headquarters in San Francisco. It is best known for the events of November 18, 1978, in Guyana, in which 909 people died at the Peoples Temple Agricultural Project (informally, and now commonly, called "Jonestown&quot and nearby airstrip at Port Kaituma, and Georgetown in an organized mass suicide/killing.

The mass suicide and killings at Jonestown resulted in the greatest single loss of American civilian life in a non-natural non-accidental disaster prior to the events of September 11, 2001. Casualties at the airstrip included, among others, Congressman Leo Ryan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple

People have a right to believe what they wish. And I have every right to not trust organizations that deliberately do bad things to good people.

[REP]

161. Locking

This thread violates the SoP for this Forum. Please feel free to repost in one of the Religion Groups.