The Squad was right to vote against infrastructure bill Part 2: Manchin snubs constituents

[wellst0nev0ter]

The Washington Post published an infuriating article today:

As Democrats in Washington scrambled on Wednesday to prevent President Biden’s $2 trillion spending package from derailing, a group of West Virginia parents gathered on a video call as part of a last-minute effort to turn up the heat on one of their senators, Democrat Joe Manchin III.

(snip)

On Wednesday’s video call, 11 West Virginia mothers dialed in and waited for a Manchin aide to join them. They aimed to impress upon him how the expanded monthly child tax credit, championed by Biden and most Democrats in Congress and included in the spending bill, had changed their lives.

As they waited, they chatted about how the tax credit had helped them all in the past several months to purchase necessities like food, said Amy Jo Hutchison, a West Virginia organizer who had set up the call. Some of the women dialed in while picking up kids from child care.

(snip)

But less than 20 minutes before the call was supposed to start, the Manchin aide emailed to apologize and ask to reschedule for Thursday, Hutchison said.

“Senator Manchin prides himself on having an open-door policy and meeting with all West Virginians. Unfortunately, sometimes the Senate schedule or other pressing matters require staff to reschedule meetings,” Sam Runyon, a spokeswoman for Manchin, said in a statement on Wednesday night. “In this case, as in most cases, the meeting was immediately rescheduled for [Thursday] afternoon and the staffer provided his phone number to anyone that was unable to participate in the call.”

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/12/16/manchin-child-tax-credit

The only real leverage we had over Manchinema is holding the BIF until we had firm commitments on BBB. By summer and fall, Manchin was way too invested in BIF to abandon the bill: he even cut campaign commercials about what he was delivering for West Virginians.

BIF was Sinema's pet project to prove that the bipartisanship pony worked. She had too much riding on it to let it fail.

Those who called for immediately passing BIF independent of BBB are disastrously incapable of dealmaking. You do NOT give holdouts the line-item veto pen to craft their ideal package and hope for the best.

You treat Manchinema the way you treat the other 48 votes: they get their pound of flesh, and you make them concede on a bill that is less than what they want, but is what they can swallow.

This is what happened with the Rescue Plan and I am forever dumbstruck that the same approach was not repeated for BBB.

If Manchinema continues to resist, put the bill on the floor, dare them to vote against the bill and tank Biden's entire agenda, and remind them that they will become eternal pariahs of the Democratic Party.

Manchin is not going to switch parties because that would spell the immediate end of his political career: no trumpanzee will vote for someone who voted to convict 45 twice.

Sinema is all but disowned by the Arizona Democratic party, and if she has any survival instincts, she will fall in line.

Rolling over and saying "welp, we tried, vote harder" is not going to win you elections. Doing something and actually fighting for your voters brings you victory.

[Sherman A1]

1. So

Nothing is better than something?

[wellst0nev0ter]

4. Right now you effectively have worse than nothing

Passing the BIF didn't move the needle an inch on Democrat's electoral chances, the bad actors got everything they want, and the highway bill only increases carbon output.

[mcar]

6. ...

[Just_Vote_Dem]

14. My feeling exactly n/t

[betsuni]

28. Yes, it's ridiculous.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

7. I disagree

Something is always better than nothing

[wellst0nev0ter]

11. The something led to Biden's poll numbers dropping

[Budi]

12. Who said his poll #'s dropped? Who ran that poll?

Think we debated that OMG story already.

Politico?

[wellst0nev0ter]

18. Read it. Learn it. Live it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/11/14/post-abc-poll-biden/

[Budi]

19. OOOOHHHH YAAAA. WAPO.

Who ran the poll. How was it worded. What was the demographic polled?

We've seen this one before. It was a bust.
Read. Live. Learn. Thankyou

[wellst0nev0ter]

20. If it's already debunked, then let's see the evidence

The floor is yours.

[George II]

90. That's from more than a month ago. This is current - "Read it. Learn it. Live it.".....

https://graphics.reuters.com/USA-BIDEN/POLL/nmopagnqapa/

Last month:

Approval: 44%
Disapproval: 49%

Now:

Approval: 48%
Disapproval: 48%

[Demsrule86]

178. I would not read that anti-Democratic Party rag...cancelled my subscription in fact.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

258. If you do not like Senator Manchin then help elect more Democratic Senators

Link to tweet

[Drunken Irishman]

277. You cite a month old poll. Just admit you made a talking point up.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

24. Again, I trust President Joe Biden

Link to tweet

[wellst0nev0ter]

33. So BBB will be passed by Christmas

If it doesn't, then what?

[LetMyPeopleVote]

40. Read President Biden's statement or have someone read it for you

Joe is not promising BBB to passed by Christmas. There are valid reasons why this has not happened including the Senate Parliamentarian who is not under the President's control

[wellst0nev0ter]

43. Oh, now it's "as early as possible"

Good to know.

[TexasTowelie]

44. Then they will keep working on the bill until it is passed.

QED.

[wellst0nev0ter]

45. Then that means the Christmas deadline was bunk

Just keep punting and moving the goalposts until it's too late

[TexasTowelie]

91. That's part of the legislative process.

Meanwhile, your statement is accusing President Biden of deliberately misleading the country by calling his efforts to get the bill passed "bunk." I stand with President Biden, I do not stand with the Squad and I believe that they are doing more harm than good.

[wellst0nev0ter]

125. Nowhere in the post mentioned Biden

Let's not start making false accusations here, okay?

[TexasTowelie]

140. Why, you've made plenty of false accusations yourself?

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

It is also easy to see who you implied was delivering bad messaging without mentioning Biden by name.

[wellst0nev0ter]

148. Name the false accusations

[TexasTowelie]

152. So you can alert and get my post hidden?

I'm not playing your game and your false accusations are a feature of this thread.

[wellst0nev0ter]

154. You need to be specific

I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about.

[TexasTowelie]

157. No I don't.

However, I will point out that a lot of the things that you've said about Senators Manchin and Sinema do fall into the category of false accusations and leave it at that.

[wellst0nev0ter]

163. All I said about Manchinema

Are supported by observable facts. Try again.

[George II]

191. Why do you keep using that derogatory insulting nickname?

It's offensive!

[Cuthbert Allgood]

207. Its clearly a Portmanteau

Why is that offensive. They are the two that caucus with the Dems that are causing the problem.

[George II]

208. It's a disrespectful nickname for two Democratic Senators and a malicious caricature.

We should refrain from such insulting names when conducting a respectful political discussion.

Interesting that in a discussion of more than 200 replies your first and only post zeroes in on this one, the 191st in the discussion.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

209. I'm sorry. I'll PM you first before I respond to make sure it's an appropriate response.

I think what is more disrespectful is for those two Democratic Senators to hold up legislation that this country is desperately in need of. And to have watered it down along the way in the ruse that they would support it. But maybe that doesn't bother you.

[George II]

211. It's just curious that in such a long discussion you skipped almost down to the bottom to address...

....a post without even addressing the subject of this discussion. I guess defending that disrespectful nickname was more important to you than the bill under discussion in this thread now more than 200 posts.

So then, getting back to your bashing of two Democratic Senators, no similar words about the six Democrats who voted against the infrastructure bill?

I guess some Democrats can disagree with Democratic bills and not others, eh?

[wellst0nev0ter]

228. What? "Manchinema"?

[TexasTowelie]

215. ROTFL.

[George II]

223. "Observable facts" are subjective, particularly if one isn't directly involved in the conversation..

...i.e., Manchin and/or Sinema in conversations with Schumer and/or Biden.

All we have as "facts" are subjective speculation from the media.

[wellst0nev0ter]

229. If those talks with Manchinema bore fruit, we would see them by now

But now BBB is being punted, approvingly as it seems.

[George II]

121. Are you calling President Biden a liar who is "moving the goalposts"?

[wellst0nev0ter]

123. All I know is that there was a plan to pass BBB by Christmas

Now it's gone poof.

[betsuni]

144. There have been plans to pass it all year. Plans often don't work out. Gone, poof.

Plans are not promises. There is no Santa Claus, either.

[wellst0nev0ter]

146. When you're constantly shifting goals

Its hard to maintain credibility with stakeholders.

[betsuni]

175. Like how the goal was shifted from six trillion to a lower amount?

Did that make it hard to maintain credibility with stakeholders for that person? Or was that different?

[wellst0nev0ter]

232. So negotiating in good faith and coming to the middle is bad. Got it.

[betsuni]

237. You said, "Some roads will be fixed, but not all" so yes, you think coming to the middle is

bad. Got it.

[wellst0nev0ter]

238. I was talking about BBB

Not a fait accompli highway bill.

[betsuni]

243. Oh, that "Nothing is better than something" is different. Not.

[TexasTowelie]

250. And when you are constantly setting unrealistic goals

it's also hard to maintain credibility with stakeholders. Voters are intelligent enough to recognize pipe dreams and also to discount politicians who promise them.

[George II]

198. There was a hope it would pass by Christmas. Welcome to Congressional politics.

[wellst0nev0ter]

199. You mean welcome to another midterm thumping

This is what this cavalier attitude will get us.

[George II]

202. Correct. ALL Democrats should support and vote for ALL Democratic bills. Seems you selectively...

...feel that way about our Democrats for some reason.

[wellst0nev0ter]

203. I give this spin a thumbs down and a curtsy

[Hekate]

253. In trudging thru this thread I figured out that somebody did not get their sparkle-pony....

Anybody would be mad if that happened.

The fact that no one promised that — and by a date certain! — is something else again.

[George II]

254. +1

[betsuni]

257. Somebody's pretending that Santa PROMISED the sparkle pony for Christmas.

Now we're all supposed to totally hate Santa.

[sheshe2]

259. We can always call him Santamanchinema...

if he doesn't deliver.

Frankly I love Santa, he gives dreams to the little ones. Sure, that changes in time. However the dream will end as reality sets in. It's a nice dream and children can hold onto it for a time.

[Demsrule86]

179. Please...it takes time and patience to pass that bill...why don't you ask both sides to

negotiate in good faith...the House progressives and the moderates.

[iemanja]

134. His poll numbers have dropped due to inflation

not the infrastructure bill, which is popular.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/574122-56-percent-in-new-poll-support-bipartisan-infrastructure-bill

[wellst0nev0ter]

136. Then why hasn't there been a boost in the polls?

Thanks to that, the BIF has been useless as a political win.

[iemanja]

141. I'm so sorry that bridges will be fixed rather than collapsing

It must be devastating for you.

If you examine the tracking polls at the time, you would likely find a bump. around the time that bill passed. Why are the numbers falling now? It's not due to a bill that passed months ago. Inflation is the reason. How hard is it to understand that when housing and food prices go up, people get pissed off?

[George II]

189. There has been.

[Demsrule86]

177. No it didn't. The foot dragging on infrastructure, Afghanistan (where even Democrats castigated

Biden for what I consider a remarkably successful withdrawal) and I think to some extent the congressional hearings on January 6th have affected Biden's poll numbers. People want to move on from the bitter partisanship. Democrats need to do what it takes to pass BBB with whatever can be agreed upon...and if they don't, we will regret it when the GOP takes over the house and possibly the Senate...how does a 7-2 rightwing SCOTUS majority sound? I will add that the cable media is savaging Biden.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

255. Again, this is going to be get done in the real world

You are wrong yet again in your claims.

[Hekate]

251. Thank you. This is getting so old. nt

[Sherman A1]

15. You are certainly entitled to your opinion

I simply don't see it that way.

[uponit7771]

30. +1, with poor messaging mechanics we're not going to get the positive word out like we should and

... little to know political benefit will come in the 22 midterms from it or at least that what poor messaging mechanics gets us.

[wellst0nev0ter]

38. So "You Didn't Clap Hard Enough" will be the excuse for 2022?

Good to know.

[uponit7771]

65. No, we need to execute on all cylinders we're missing one with message mechanics

[wellst0nev0ter]

68. And what message does punting on BBB till the next year send?

[uponit7771]

74. The same as if we passed it without good message mechanics; pretty much BAU, ....

... we get no mileage out of it for the few swing voters left and those who aren't involved in voting.

We can do both; pass BBB and have good message mechanics.

[wellst0nev0ter]

79. Promising a Christmas deadline, then punting, is not good message discipline

Breaking campaign promises over and over again is never good optics, and messaging can only do so much to paper over the deficits.

[TexasTowelie]

97. It sure seems like you are disappointed in President Biden's messaging.

And now you are concerned about deficits, what brought that on?

[wellst0nev0ter]

102. This is poor communications

We need to do better.

[TexasTowelie]

106. Possibly, but if there is something to be learned

it is to not make promises when there is reasonable doubt that they can be kept. It's also noted that you consider Biden and his administration to be poor communicators with that statement.

[wellst0nev0ter]

113. The "poor communications" refers to a DU post

[TexasTowelie]

133. Is that your own post? nt

[wellst0nev0ter]

135. Wrong

A normal reader can easily tell from the context

[TexasTowelie]

41. Your reply reminds me that some people are never satisfied. nt

[rockfordfile]

116. You have no idea you're talking about.

That was great for our country and President Biden.

[wellst0nev0ter]

119. Biden's poll number is still underwater

Still waiting for the political gains from getting half a loaf.

[George II]

194. Are you applauding that? You think poll numbers are based on one single bill?

Plus, in recent weeks they've been going up.

I'm glad we now have a President who doesn't govern based on poll numbers. it's a refreshing change from the previous four years.

Why are you so down on Biden and Democrats in general?

[wellst0nev0ter]

200. According to 538, Biden's aggregates only inched up about a point from November's low

Normally, people's hair would be on fire from these numbers, and the COVID surge is only going to make things worse.

[TexasTowelie]

217. Spreading more cynicism again I see.

I guess that you didn't meet your quota yesterday?

[Demsrule86]

176. There is good stuff in the infrastructure bill. As for the midterms, we have a better chance with

the infrastructure bill than with nothing. As I said before, it is not just Manchin...House progressives are insisting on paid leave which will not happen and will mean no bill if they don't find some sort of middle ground with Manchin. I have seen polls that indicate BBB is not popular in Manchin's state.

[Hoyt]

2. Think it is better BIF was passed. The idea of linking the bills was stupid,

and wasted weeks.

[question everything]

3. And probably cost us Virginia, suggesting the inability of Democrats to govern

[wellst0nev0ter]

10. Manchinema could have just voted for the entire package in the summer

Easy peasy.

[Budi]

21. Squad could have just voted yes too.

But...whoa did ya see the blowback from that one!
It rates right up there with Manchin & Sinema in the wtf are you doing!, department.

[wellst0nev0ter]

23. Makes for sense to pressure the radical minority holdouts to vote yes

Than to force the entire Democratic caucus to bend to the will of the radical minority.

The reverse only makes sense if one is of a particular ideological bent.

[George II]

192. Who is this "radical minority" of which you speak? So far....

....there have been only six Democrats who have voted against either of the two bills.

[Demsrule86]

180. And the Progressive House members could have voted for infrastructure in September instead

of holding it hostage to a bill that will never pass in its original form (still insisting on family leave which we'll not happen delays it further)...a complete waste of time and a prime reason that Biden's numbers are down. Easy Peasy and maybe we win Virginia.

[mcar]

214. This

Infrastructure could have been passed months ago. McAuliffe could have used it and we would have been spared Hill reporters breathlessly parsing Manchin's every utterance.

[JustAnotherGen]

240. Bullseye

[wellst0nev0ter]

5. The idea of not passing a single bill was stupider

Separating Biden's agenda into two bills put us on the road to the current disaster we're witnessing.

[TexasTowelie]

219. So it was all or nothing for you?

How many times have progressives come out on the losing side by being so stubborn and idealistic?

[wellst0nev0ter]

226. How many times have Democrats lost elections by not doing enough?

The old way has not worked. Time to stop doing the same things over again expecting different results.

[TexasTowelie]

230. If voters already reject Democrats because they are left of center,

then moving further to the left is definitely a losing proposition. There is a reason why the progressive caucus does not make up even the majority of US representatives and it's because voters reject overly progressive politicians during the general election (recent examples: Nina Turner at the congressional level, India Walton at the municipal level). From my vantage point, progressives don't have any reason to brag when they lose elections and those recent examples are proof as to why the Democratic Party shouldn't shift further to the left.

[wellst0nev0ter]

234. And voters embrace Republicans because they are moderates?

We need to think logically and not try to emulate the goops.

[TexasTowelie]

235. I am thinking logically.

Nominating a slate of Democrats that shares the values of the Squad throughout the country is a losing proposition. At the presidential level it would be a disaster along the lines of McGovern or Mondale. At the congressional level it would likely yield 300 Republicans in the House and over 60 Republicans in the Senate.

They tried to run a Justice Democrat in Texas in 2020 against Cuellar and she lost even though Bernie was on the top of the ticket. I have no reason to believe that she will do better in 2022, especially since there is another progressive Latina on the primary ballot that will siphon votes away from the Justice Democrat.

[wellst0nev0ter]

236. This is precisely 1972, 1984 thinking

We need to get our heads out of the past and focus on the here and now.

[TexasTowelie]

249. I might be convinced if Justice Democrats could win in districts

that aren't highly favorable to Democrats to begin with. Since the Justice Democrats organized they have failed to win any contest for a seat that was held by Republicans. IOW, they lose 100% of the time when it comes time for the general election. Why follow such a profoundly unsuccessful model? The model is something to discard rather than emulate.

[questionseverything]

29. Bif is a prime example of using public money to build infrastructure

That businesses need to profit …those things were going to get done

The enhanced child tax credit took 40% of the children in poverty out of poverty…. In January they will be right back where they started, tired, hungry & scared

The only problem with the child tax credit was we changed the upper income limit from $400,000 to $150,000

I believe that change killed us in the Virginia suburbs

[lapucelle]

269. That change occured weeks after the VA elelection. N/T

[questionseverything]

272. The upper level income change was written into the same bill

That gave us the enhanced child tax credits

Lots of families in the suburbs that used to receive the smaller child tax credit no longer qualified

[LetMyPeopleVote]

8. 'Know when to hold and know when to fold': Progressives accept limits of their power

Meanwhile in the real world where facts matter, this is nice to see

Link to tweet

Rep. John Yarmuth (D-Ky.), a retiring liberal who’s spent 14 years in the House, chalked up some of the left’s more hardline approach this year to the fact that the House's newest generation of liberals hadn’t governed in a majority before.

“They were posturing," Yarmuth said, "but also thinking, 'maybe I can get 100 percent of what I want.' Around here if you get 70 percent of what you want, that's a major victory. I think some of them learned along the way that that's real life. I think Pramila sure did. But ultimately, she handled it really well and was very effective.”

Indeed, progressives say they’re putting the bill in perspective — as a once-in-a-generation safety net expansion that they fought tooth and nail for, one that still includes some major goals, despite the party's thin margins. And they say that’ll be the case even if a final agreement leaves out issues such as immigration reform, which the Senate’s parliamentarian has repeatedly rejected under the chamber’s budget rules, or paid leave, a policy that Manchin has said doesn’t belong in the party-line bill.....

Other Democrats, however, insist party leaders would have never abandoned Biden’s broader social policy bill, even if the president did sign the bipartisan infrastructure bill earlier. And some progressives — such as the half-dozen who voted against the infrastructure bill just before Thanksgiving — don’t believe their caucus should have let the bills get decoupled soon as they were.

[wellst0nev0ter]

9. So you're happy to see most of Biden's agenda being killed

Good to know.

[Budi]

16. Whoa...that's quite a stumpin for the "Nothing is better than something" spin

Geezus
No one believes that btw.
Appreciate the desperate attempted spin following the severe blowback for that NO on BIF Vote, but sometimes the Emperor just can't convince the viewing public that he really IS wearing clothes. REALLY!

[wellst0nev0ter]

17. I was arguing that you can get everything if you play your cards right

I can't help those who folds the cards before they even get them.

[betsuni]

27. The myth that getting the whole pie is the only righteous thing to do and that rejecting half the

pie makes it more likely to get the whole pie. Believing that this time will be different, this time they'll get the whole pie because they're so confident that everyone knows they're right and must agree. But that isn't the real world. Fine for activists, not for legislators who have to deal with bad actors.

[wellst0nev0ter]

31. Right now Manchinema is getting the whole pie

Would be nice if people put a stop to it.

[betsuni]

39. What people? Biden: "My team and I are having ongoing discussions with Senator Manchin;

that work will continue next week. Leader Schumer and I are determined to see the bill successfully on the floor as early as possible."

Democratic senators have repeatedly met with him, just saw that senators are speaking out about him on the senate floor.

By people putting a stop to it, maybe you mean constituents should get in touch with Manchin and Sinema.

[wellst0nev0ter]

42. Didn't you read the OP

Constituent did try to get in touch with Manchin.

He blew them off.

Things better change significantly if they want to pass BBB by next week. If they don't, then what?

[betsuni]

54. So what people should put a stop to it?

Constituents tried, Democrats did too are are still trying. Who?

[wellst0nev0ter]

58. The Democratic Majority for Israel should be put on the case

They WANT Biden to succeed, right?

[betsuni]

105. What would they be able to do?

[wellst0nev0ter]

110. Swoop in and do ad buys, for one.

[betsuni]

164. Targeted at constituents to pressure Manchin and Sinema to vote for it? But they ignore constituents

so I don't think that would make a difference.

[wellst0nev0ter]

167. We need to pay closer attention to recent history

JOE MANCHIN WAS HIT WITH TOUGH AD BACK HOME AFTER GOING WOBBLY ON $2,000 CHECKS

[betsuni]

172. No evidence an ad made a difference. The effort to get Manchin to support the rescue plan

is described in Woodward and Costa's book "Peril."

"'Joe,' Biden said, 'if you don't come along, you're really fucking me. I really need you on this. Find your way to yes on this.'"

"'What the fuck are you doing, Joe?' Biden asked him. 'Come on, man.'"

Took a lot of work to make Manchin agree. That's the recent history. Thank you, Democrats!

[TexasTowelie]

88. I recall one senator asking for a $6 trillion package.

Last edited Fri Dec 17, 2021, 12:55 AM - Edit history (1)

Did that senator not play his cards right?

[betsuni]

166. I've heard that fighting hard enough brings victory.

[TexasTowelie]

108. So did the squad play their cards right?

I would conclude that the answer is no because they didn't get everything that they wanted. Which member of the squad screwed things up because they didn't play their cards right?

[wellst0nev0ter]

112. Right now, the Squad looks like they made the right call

And everyone else who trusted Manchinema to do the right thing looks foolish indeed.

[TexasTowelie]

128. Did the Squad get everything that they wanted?

The answer is no, so they didn't make the right call because they failed to obtain their objectives. QED.

[wellst0nev0ter]

131. The Squad and the progressives gave up concessions after consessions

Yet Manchinema has consistently refused to meet the other side halfway.

Someone had to draw the line.

[TexasTowelie]

143. So the Squad and progressives gave up concessions.

That is verification that they knew that their proposals had absolutely no chance of passing. If they have to make concessions, then they failed in their goals and no amount of spin or video clips will change that fact.

[wellst0nev0ter]

145. That's called negotiating with a bad-faith partner

And its incumbent on us not to reward bad-faith tactics.

[TexasTowelie]

149. .

[wellst0nev0ter]

155. Yes, we need to get past the spin

[TexasTowelie]

161. That effort needs to come from both sides.

I'm not saying that I agree with everything that is occurring in D.C., but this campaign against Manchin and Sinema isn't accomplishing anything just like you would likely say that attacking the Squad or Bernie doesn't accomplish anything.

People also need to realize that they are not going to persuade anyone to align with their cause if they are rude or disrespectful. If anything, that type of behavior will irritate people and make them more stubborn.

[lapucelle]

264. The only folks who look foolish are the uninformed.

Statement from President Biden on the Build Back Better Act
December 16, 2021

I had a productive call with Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Schumer earlier today. I briefed them on the most recent discussions that my staff and I have held with Senator Manchin about Build Back Better. In these discussions, Senator Manchin has reiterated his support for Build Back Better funding at the level of the framework plan I announced in September. I believe that we will bridge our differences and advance the Build Back Better plan, even in the face of fierce Republican opposition.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/12/16/statement-from-the-president-on-the-build-back-better-act/

============================================================

It’s not just Joe Manchin: Here’s what stands in the way of Democrats passing Biden’s social-spending bill

The Senate parliamentarian, the expert in rules and order, also has to make a final ruling on what Democrats can include in their bill under the budget reconciliation process, which allows them to bypass GOP opposition to the plan. The party had one setback on Thursday when the parliamentarian ruled it could not include limited legal protections for millions of undocumented immigrants in the bill. In a joint statement Thursday, Schumer and five other Democratic senators said they will “pursue every means to achieve a path to citizenship in the Build Back Better Act.”

Democrats still have to craft a compromise over state and local tax deductions. The House lifted the cap on those deductions to $80,000 from $10,000 as part of its version of the bill. Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., among others, have looked for a way to revise the policy, which would currently disproportionately benefit wealthy taxpayers.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/17/build-back-better-act-joe-manchin-opposition-stalls-joe-biden-plan.html

=============================================================

SALT-Cap Talks Falter as Sanders, Menendez Negotiate Details

Senator Bob Menendez, a New Jersey Democrat, told reporters Monday that Senator Bernie Sanders has “walked away” from a previously-agreed-to plan that changes to the deduction be revenue neutral over the 10-year budget window, which would allow for a more generous tax break.

Sanders said on Monday he wants the reworked SALT deduction to raise revenue -- which he says could amount to a couple hundred billion dollars -- to pay for expanding dental and vision health coverage under Medicare.

“We said that we believe that the SALT should be whatever is revenue neutral,” Menendez said Monday. “And that’s what I thought we were doing. Now it seems that he has desires of using some of that revenue by cutting back.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-29/salt-cap-talks-falter-as-sanders-menendez-negotiate-details

[Demsrule86]

181. That is the problem, you never get everything...and the more you 'play', the less likely it is

that you get anything. Get what you can and come back for more. As the ACA created an appetite for health care so will some of the good stuff in BBB. We won't get it all but we can get some of it passed if we are willing to compromise and negotiate in good faith.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

25. Again I live in the real world and I trust President Biden

Link to tweet

[wellst0nev0ter]

62. That's Biden conceding BBB won't get passed by Christmas

It's time to stop hoping and time to start applying pressure on Manchinema.

[TexasTowelie]

104. Who is Manchinema?

If you can make derogatory names for Democratic senators that you oppose am I allowed to come up with derogatory names for senators and representatives that I don't like? It really does seem like it's a fair game since I would be following your example.

BTW, we really got to see what a great negotiator one of those senators is. He asked for $6 trillion and the package has been cut repeatedly. Why isn't he out there applying pressure on Manchin and Sinema? Oops, he has tried repeatedly and he has failed repeatedly. Next.

[wellst0nev0ter]

111. We need to stop being precious over what we call bad actors

Politicians on the other side have been called worse on these forums without consequence.

And that "great negotiator" was loyal to Biden and followed his lead. That's all.

[TexasTowelie]

124. So you wouldn't have a problem if I called the Squad a derogatory name?

After all, we need to stop being precious over what we call bad actors and in the eyes of many, the Squad are considered to be bad actors with all of their demands.

Furthermore, that great negotiator wasn't able to get the job done and he appeared inept with his failure. I also don't consider him to be loyal to President Biden with the demands that he made during the negotiation process. There were a few times when I thought that he was going to kill the entire negotiation process because of his stubbornness.

[wellst0nev0ter]

127. Anyone can call the Squad names

And join the ranks of Trump and the trumpanzees if that's what floats their boats.

[TexasTowelie]

130. There are plenty of Democrats that do not like the Squad.

However, it is bullshit to suggest that because people oppose the Squad that we are somehow aligning ourselves with Trump. What a load of bullshit for even making that suggestion about other Democrats.

[wellst0nev0ter]

132. The Dems that don't like the Squad

need to question their motivations.

[TexasTowelie]

142. Why should we have to explain?

You behave like other people that don't agree with you owe you something. That is conceited.

[wellst0nev0ter]

147. Those who don't like the Squad

Should question why they find the Squad grating, but think the antics by Manchinema are perfectly acceptable.

[TexasTowelie]

150. What makes you believe that we haven't already reflected on that?

There is no need to be condescending with your belief that we are incapable of intelligent thoughts.

[radius777]

158. The Squad are disliked for the same reason Rosa Parks

was told to sit at the back of the bus, ie 'know your place.'

Manchinema are excused and coddled because they are white moderates, thus viewed as real Americans.

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice." - Martin Luther King

[wellst0nev0ter]

162. No other words needed

Thread winner

[betsuni]

187. This is my favorite. The "Yer racist, you wealthy white centrist/moderates, same as Republicans"

accusation against DUers, when obviously the Democratic base are working class women and people of color.

It was very popular to accuse people critical of Nina Turner of hating "strong women of color" when her opponent was also a "strong woman of color." Guess they didn't check. A Justice Democrats thing.

[George II]

196. That happened frequently with me last August. I was repeatedly accused of not supporting....

...a woman of color because I didn't support Nina Turner. Totally lost in those discussions was the fact that I supported Shontel Brown. I guess to them my non-support of Turner was based on racism or misogyny. The fact that Brown is a Black woman is incidental to their non-support of her.

And you hit the nail on the head with your last statement. It's a Justice Democrats thing. Look over their incumbent legislators and even their current slate of candidates. Not a white male in the bunch. And look who they target - for the most part white males.

I think they do this just for that "defense" when their candidates are criticized. Remember, their candidates are "recruited" (their own terminology), it's not the other way around.

[betsuni]

197. When there aren't policy goal differences, go after character.

Accuse Democrats (their imaginary enemies worse than Republicans) of racism and corruption and immorality and being evil and breaking promises and not fighting and so on. No wonder fundraising is drying up. Running out of stupid people who still believe that nonsense.

[radius777]

247. Dem agenda is failing PoC, only thing they passed is white man's jobs bill ie BIF.

Lest we remind them that Biden is only President due to PoC saving him in SC during the primaries. In the general election it was PoC turnout in places like Milwaukee, Detroit, Philly and Atlanta that helped swing those states into the blue column.

Dems/Biden need to come down hard on Manchinema and get us BBB and voting rights. The Squad are not the ones standing in the way, nor did they push for anything 'far left', but only want standard things that every Dem should want.

I supported Hillary over Bernie and Shontel over Nina and am a man of color and lifelong Dem.

The Dem party wants to cater to Manchinema yet shove aside the PoC agenda - fuck that noise. There are marches planned in January around MLK day to pressure Dems/Biden/Manchinema to push through voting rights by any means necessary.

[betsuni]

248. 50-50 senate, completely dysfunctional opposition party. That's what's wrong.

Gives each Democratic senator a veto. This is on two senators and the Republican Party. Same thing happened with the ACA. Exactly 60 votes, giving every Democratic senator a veto -- why the public option and other things had to be removed. No Republican votes. No diabolical Democratic Party agenda to be unprogressive and mean to people. Numbers.

[George II]

195. Are you serious? You're now introducing race into a vigorous political debate here? Has....

....ANYONE mentioned the race or gender of anyone as a reason for criticism of anyone here?

People agree or disagree with any legislator's policy positions and actions because they don't agree with those policy positions and actions, NOT because they're Black, Puerto Rican, Islamic, women or anything else.

I simply cannot believe that you brought this into this discussion.

So, if your logic were to be projected onto everyone here, I guess anyone who supports President Joe Biden is a "white supremacist"?

C'mon man, give us a break!

[mcar]

218. How dare you call me racist?

I dislike the "Squad" because they accomplish nothing but running Democrats down.

BTW, Manchin and Sinema drive me crazy too.

[wellst0nev0ter]

227. "BTW, Manchin and Sinema drive me crazy too"

Could've fooled me

[mcar]

231. Huh?

Do you think it's OK for posters to call other posters racist? I don't.

[wellst0nev0ter]

233. Who specifically called you racist?

Be honest.

[mcar]

239. Nice try

This is your OP. I'm sure you've read all the posts.

[wellst0nev0ter]

242. No, I am truly curious

Enlighten me.

[sheshe2]

260. mcar is correct.

[Cha]

246. No.. they're good.

[George II]

252. Okay, using your logic would it make sense to say "Dems who don't like the BIF need to question....

....their motivations"?

[mcar]

216. So, it's perfectly fine for you to call Democratic senators

derogatory names, but anyone who does same for the "Squad" is a Trumper?

Seems like quite a double standard.

[TexasTowelie]

220. It is, and that member has engaged with that derogatory nonsense throughout the thread.

Real Democrats do not call other Democrats names.

[mcar]

225. Nor do they call them racist

if they don't happen to appreciate a certain group.

[Demsrule86]

182. And there in lies the problem...'the other side'...we should all be on the same side...what is

going to happen if it is true that the left stayed home in Virginia and I am not saying it is...I don't know -is that the Democratic Party will move further right towards the middle as that is where future elections will be won and what you call the progressive wing will have less influence and power...which is a damn shame.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

256. So what? Why is that so important?

Biden is going to get this done in the real world Your attacks on our President sadden me. I have met Joe Biden at two fundraisers and he is the real deal

[Bettie]

32. There is a segment that seems really happy

to see a large section of the agenda (Biden's agenda) killed if they can say "neener neener" to the people they hate more than they dislike republicans.

Things that actually help normal people? Nah, because they have to teach progressives that they aren't welcome in the 'big tent', well, at least not after election day. On election day, they want the votes, but with the expectation that they will receive nothing but derision afterward.

[wellst0nev0ter]

34. Call it the Corbyn Effect

[Demsrule86]

183. Progressives are part of our party and yes we expect that they will support Democrats.

[TexasTowelie]

224. Lobbing accusations at other Democrats?

What a crock of bullshit trying to pass off the fiction that other Democrats are willing to kill Biden's agenda in order to spite the Squad as reality. I'm left to determine whether that is paranoia or an inferiority complex.

[TexasTowelie]

85. Classic binary thinking. nt

[wellst0nev0ter]

87. Only way to interpret that post n/t

[TexasTowelie]

92. No it isn't, you are making an assumption

and you know what they say about people that assume things. You don't know what the person that made is thinking and trying to smear that person indicates that you are losing the argument in your own OP.

[Cha]

245. Why would you ever say that? Your

assumption is Wrong.

[MichMan]

13. I never understood why it was separated into two bills in the first place

Just to later say they were linked together & then change their minds back and forth. Put them in the same bill and they are permanently linked together anyway.

Seemed like a dumb strategy that backfired

[wellst0nev0ter]

35. Progressives are loyal to the fault to Biden

They were willing to give concessions after concessions if that is what Biden wanted.

Meanwhile, those who aren't loyal to Biden get to act however they choose without any need to come to the middle.

And somehow, this imbalance seems normal to certain crowds.

[sheshe2]

47. ...

[Budi]

80. Ummm.. the squad has voted against Biden & Dems more than Manchin has.

Loyal to who?

[wellst0nev0ter]

83. Talking about the Progressive Caucus

Don't tell me people have already forgotten about them.

[TexasTowelie]

96. .

[Demsrule86]

184. A number of them voted against infrastructure...I don't consider that loyal...

it came damn near to failing in the House. As for concessions, when they can win in red and moderate districts/states, they will have greater influence as our majority will come from winning red and purple states, particularly in the Senate.

[budkin]

22. THEY KNEW

Just like most of us here did.

[wellst0nev0ter]

36. They certainly did

And all they received in return is mockery.

[Bettie]

51. But, to be fair, had they all voted for it

they would be "rubes" now, because that segment lives to denigrate progressives.

[iemanja]

26. What makes you think a joined bill would have passed?

And Sinema and Manchin wouldn't pull the same shit they are doing now? That is why they severed the bill after all. We could be looking at zero wins.

[wellst0nev0ter]

37. Because they passed the Rescue Plan with few concessions.

There's a term called "Divide and Conquer."

It worked to the Manchinema's advantage, and we Democrats fell for it.

[Autumn]

56. Manchinema? I like that, it suits them both.

Like a wrestling tag team

[wellst0nev0ter]

61. Apparently this is more acceptable than an epithet that rhymes with "Trader Joe's"

[iemanja]

63. They severed it because Manchinema wouldn't vote for it otherwise

Because they passed one part does not mean they would have passed the whole thing. In fact, they probably would not have done so.

[wellst0nev0ter]

66. That was called a "bluff"

No real negotiator takes a bluff at face value. They tell the other side to put up or shut up.

[iemanja]

69. Are they bluffing now?

What makes it different now from at the time the infrastructure bill did pass.
You have no way of knowing if your counterfactual history would have come true. My guess is that we would be shit out of luck with nothing to show for it.

[wellst0nev0ter]

71. They now have room to slow-walk BBB till it dies

Back then, they risked tanking Biden's entire agenda and being outcasts of the Democratic Party.

Now they got what they wanted and no incentive to pass anything else.

They win, we lose.

[iemanja]

72. They are outcasts

and they love it.

[wellst0nev0ter]

73. No, Democrats are still placating them

As far as the Democratic leadership is concerned, Manchinema are still members in good standing, which is exactly why we are in this crisis in the first place.

[iemanja]

75. Only because the Dems have no choice

Not because they like or respect them. They are outcasts. Sinema in particular wouldn't have it any other way.

[wellst0nev0ter]

76. If they are truly outcasts, Democrats would tell Manchinema to take it or leave it

They wouldn't waste time negotiating with the bad actors.

[iemanja]

78. Are you saying they are good actors?

I see no evidence of that. How does one go from being a Green to the right of the Democratic Party? It doesn't compute. I don't believe her shtick for one minute.

[wellst0nev0ter]

82. The bad actors are Manchinema

And Sinema is certainly a bad actor in all of this.

[iemanja]

84. Okay, we agree

So much for your point about their not wanting to be outcasts.

[wellst0nev0ter]

86. Yes we agree

But the worse case scenario for Manchinema is that the entire Democratic leadership treats them as persona non grata. No more dealmaking, no more placating, no more kissing up to their demands.

We need to use that as a bargaining chip against them.

[iemanja]

89. I think Manchin enjoys the power over the Dems

I kind of, but not completely, understand where he's coming from since he represents a red state. I see no logical reason for Sinema's behavior.
But Manchin too doesn't operate in good faith. For example, he claims to want to refrain from spending too much but then insists the Dems make the child credit for ten years rather than 1, and that he won't support a bill over $1.75 Trillion. He is making that demand to derail it, not because he wants to see a ten-year child credit. He is continually moving the goal posts.

[lapucelle]

266. Krysten Sinema is to the left of two squad members who voted against the President's bill.

Based on her voting record and public stances, Sinema is to the left of both Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman. And unlike those Democrats who voted with the majority of Republicans against the President's infrastructure bill, Krysten Sinema has a 100% record of voting with President Biden.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-congress-votes/

==============================================================



Kyrsten Sinema is a Libertarian-Leaning Progressive

https://www.ontheissues.org/senate/Kyrsten_Sinema.htm

==============================================================



Cori Bush is a Moderate Liberal

https://www.ontheissues.org/House/Cori_Bush_HouseMatch.htm

===============================================================



Jamaal Bowman is a Populist-Leaning Liberal

https://www.ontheissues.org/NY/Jamaal_Bowman.htm

[iemanja]

273. That graph says nothing about her being to the left

of the rest of the Democrats. Your post is BS.

[lapucelle]

274. No one claimed she is "to the left of the rest of Democrats".

The graphic does show that, based on her record as a legislator, she is to the left of both Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman. And Nate Silver's data shows that she votes with Biden 100% of the time.

[iemanja]

275. She is holding up the voting rights bill

Enough said.

[lapucelle]

276. Senator Sinema is a co-sponsor on Senator Klobuchar's Freedom to Vote Act.

The bill has one sponsor and forty-nine co-sponsors, so it has enough votes to pass.

Where is the misinformation coming from? Senator Sinema is actually co-sponsoring (rather than holding up) the voting rights bill.

Senator Sinema signed on as a co-sponsor on the very same day that Chuck Schumer, Elizabeth Warren, Cory Booker, and Bernard Sanders did. Those senators all signed on in early December.

None, however, are original co-sponsors like Senators Warnock, Manchin and Merkley (among others) who signed on the day Senator Klobuchar introduced her bill in September.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/2747/cosponsors

[George II]

46. What's "Manchinima", a disrespectful nickname for someone?

[wellst0nev0ter]

48. *Manchinema

[George II]

49. Ok, what's "Manchinema"? Is that intended to be a disrespectful nickname for someone?

[wellst0nev0ter]

50. You had one chance

You whiffed it.

[George II]

53. In other words it's a disrespectful nickname for a Democrat or two. We get it.

[NYC Liberal]

168. Sounds like the old right-wing term "Billary" to me.

[George II]

188. Yep. Its disappointing when civil discourse deteriorates to name calling and insults.

Last edited Fri Dec 17, 2021, 07:26 AM - Edit history (1)

[iemanja]

64. Yes, Sinema and Manchin

Why should you object to that? Do you not want to see Biden's agenda move forward? Is "respecting" obstructionists more important to you?

[George II]

67. Ok then, it's Manchin and Sinema, not Manchinema.

[iemanja]

70. Why should you even care?

[George II]

77. I respect Democrats, even those I might disagree with. It's as disrespectful as when republicans....

....derogatorily referred to the last Democratic administration (and sometimes even this administration) as O'Biden.

[iemanja]

81. I support Biden's agenda

Not the GOP's. Because someone puts a D next to their name doesn't mean they support the Democratic agenda, as their actions make clear.

[George II]

95. According to projects.fivethirtyeight.com, both Manchin and Sinema support Biden's agenda, too....

More so than most other Senators in the Democratic caucus:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-congress-votes/

"How often the member votes in line with Biden’s position"

01 100.0% Kyrsten Sinema D AZ (along with 17 other Democrats)
19 97.40% Richard Blumenthal D CT
19 97.40% Robert P. Casey Jr. D PA
19 97.40% Catherine Cortez Masto D NV
19 97.40% Richard J. Durbin D IL
19 97.40% Tim Kaine D VA
19 97.40% Ben R. Luján D NM
19 97.40% Joe Manchin D WV
19 97.40% Jon Ossoff D GA
19 97.40% Alex Padilla D CA
19 97.40% Gary C. Peters D MI
19 97.40% Jacky Rosen D NV
19 97.40% Charles E. Schumer D NY
19 97.40% Debbie Stabenow D MI
19 97.40% Brian Schatz D HI
19 97.40% Raphael G. Warnock D GA
19 97.40% Sherrod Brown D OH
19 97.40% Martin Heinrich D NM
19 97.40% Tina Smith D MN
36 97.30% Maria Cantwell D WA
37 97.10% Mazie K. Hirono D HI
38 94.90% Tammy Baldwin D WI
38 94.90% Cory A. Booker D NJ
38 94.90% Tammy Duckworth D IL
38 94.90% Edward J. Markey D MA
38 94.90% Jeff Merkley D OR
38 94.90% Ron Wyden D OR
38 94.90% Elizabeth Warren D MA
45 94.70% Kirsten E. Gillibrand D NY
45 94.70% Patty Murray D WA
45 94.70% Chris Van Hollen D MD
48 92.30% Jon Tester D MT
50 92.10% Bernard Sanders I VT

[iemanja]

98. and what do you call their positions on voting rights and build back better?

I do read the newspaper. They are holding up the most important pieces of the President's agenda. Sinema is jeopardizing democracy itself, and she thinks it's funny.

Let's not pretend you support all Democrats. We both know that you don't like the squad. I become frustrated with them as well, but then I don't feel some obligation to revere everyone with a D behind their name. I respond according to their positions at a given time.

[lapucelle]

265. Manchin is one of the original co-sponsors of Sen. Klobuchar's Freedom to Vote Act.

Senator Klobachur introduced the bill back in September. Sinema is a co-sponsor as well.

Maybe that news wasn't reported in all the newspapers. It's a shame when that happens because some folks might get tricked into believing storylines and narratives.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/2747/cosponsors

[George II]

52. So you're telling us that six Democrats are more clairvoyant than 215 other Democrats?

[wellst0nev0ter]

55. They wanted Manchinema to prove them wrong and make them eat crow

So far, that's not happening.

[George II]

57. And you know that how? I don't understand how a vote in the House would have anything to do....

....with a vote in the Senate. By the way, a vote in the Senate that hasn't even taken place.

[wellst0nev0ter]

60. Here's AOC's Instagram stream explaining her "no" vote

Some of us actually took the time to listen to her instead of putting words in her mouth.

[TexasTowelie]

94. If you have to explain why you voted a certain way on a bill, then you've already lost.

Voters aren't going to listen to AOC's excuses when it is much simpler to look at her "no" vote on BIF instead. The same message applies to all of the members of the Squad that voted no on BIF. Most voters don't have the attention span to listen to garbage about wishful thinking and what their intentions are--they are looking at the final action which is either a "yes", "present", or "no" vote.

[wellst0nev0ter]

103. Her audience knows why she voted against BIF

Because she took the time to explain it.

Meanwhile, bad actor are giving deliberately bad-faith interpretations of her no vote, which goes against the message discipline the Democrats need to win the primary.

[TexasTowelie]

115. Bologna.

I doubt her voters spent the time listening to her excuses. People look at actions, not excuses.

It doesn't require any actors to provide interpretations of her vote. She voted no on the BIF which would have helped out her constituents and her district. There aren't any excuses that will ever explain away her no vote. Trying to blame "bad actors" for telling the truth takes a lot of chutzpah and is laughable.

[wellst0nev0ter]

122. Credit where credit is due

She explained her vote and is willing to stand by it.

And now she looks clairvoyant with BBB being punted into next year.

[TexasTowelie]

137. If we need a clairvoyant we could always get a consultation

and not pay a six figure salary to AOC.

[wellst0nev0ter]

153. Anyone not blinded by Squad hate could see this coming.

[TexasTowelie]

156. What is "Squad hate?"

Seems like an invention that a Republican would come up with.

If someone in the Squad comes up with piece of legislation that I support then I will give them credit. However, I haven't seen the Squad get much legislation passed that I support which is why I'm not among their cheerleaders.

[lapucelle]

262. A legislator's job is not to play to a twitter "audience". It's to represent constituents.

...[S]ome constituents, business leaders and elected officials say that day to day, [the representative from NY-14] is not always accessible.

“Ideology sometimes has to go out the window when it comes to bringing home the bacon,” said Thomas J. Grech, the chief executive of the Queens Chamber of Commerce, who said he has never been able to successfully schedule a meeting with the congresswoman, as he does with her peers.

At around 3:30 p.m. Tuesday, Ms. Ocasio-Cortez’s Queens district office was bolted shut, and what appeared to be a window on the door was blacked out. When Jahangir Hossein, a cabdriver, tried to drop off paperwork, he was informed over a halting intercom system that her team was working remotely, and that he should return on Wednesday.

The scene stood in contrast to one unfolding down the hall, as New Yorkers walked in and out of State Senator Jessica Ramos’s office.

snip==============================================================

[State Senator John C. Liu of Queens] suggested that her visibility in the district — ubiquitous online, less so in person — stood in contrast to “most of the other Congress members in New York.”

snip===============================================================

Jack McCleland, a retired Brooklyn Public Library employee, was so frustrated when he read about the “no” vote on infrastructure that he fired a grenade into a Facebook group designated for his Jackson Heights, Queens, neighborhood.

“AOC voted against the Infrastructure Bill,” he wrote. “Time for her to go.” It spawned 145 comments.

In an interview, Mr. McCleland, 74, said he considered himself a devoted Democrat who wants ambitious climate and health legislation. But he said he now worried that in her attempts to push the party to the left, Ms. Ocasio-Cortez was undermining its ability to govern.

“We have to get something done, otherwise we are going to be the party of ‘no’ and we are not going to save the House or Senate,” he said, adding that he thought Ms. Ocasio-Cortez was “grandstanding.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/12/nyregion/aoc-infrastructure-bill-vote.html

[betsuni]

263. +1

[George II]

100. Yes, at a time when....

....the Cross Bronx Expressway is sickening Black and Latino Bronx residents and Bronx subways are flooding. Thankfully Bronx Congressman Ritchie Torres voted to eliminate these hazards.

Familiar with these?

Why Local Leaders Want Funds From Infrastructure Bill to Fix Cross Bronx Expressway

s President Joe Biden is poised to sign the $1 trillion package of road and other infrastructure projects, New York City leaders are calling for some of the funding to be used to cap one of its busiest highways.

Activists have long called for capping portions of the Cross Bronx Expressway because the highly-congested 6.5-mile freeway constructed in 1955 has displaced Black and Latino residents and destroyed developing businesses since its conception, as well as left communities with serious health impacts from toxic fumes. Democratic Rep. Ritchie Torres is among those who want to transform the sunken portion of the highway into parks and green space.

"The Cross Bronx Expressway, built by Robert Moses, is both literally and metaphorically a structure of racism, with diesel truck traffic polluting the air black and brown kids breathe everyday," Torres said.

Moses designed the highway in the 20s and bulldozed Black, Jewish and Puerto Rico homes, building the highway right in the middle and creating the South Bronx -- which has the highest asthma rate anywhere in the country.

Link to tweet

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/why-local-leaders-want-funds-from-infrastructure-bill-to-fix-cross-bronx-expressway/3389019/

Videos of flooded subway stations spark infrasructure concerns

[wellst0nev0ter]

109. It takes a truly special person

To feel proud of leaving a whole bunch of money on the table.

Also, it's a highway bill for a city that doesn't rely on cars.

MTA to Get Slim Slice of Federal Infrastructure Bill as Cars Outpace Mass Transit

[George II]

118. Try driving on any major highway at 8AM or 5PM in New York City....

That would bely the claim that NYC doesn't rely on cars.

There's an article for everything, including this:

The Cross Bronx is America’s 3rd Most Congested Road; NYC Declared Most Congested City

Subheading: Despite traffic plummeting in 2020 across the country and major cities, including New York, our hometown was declared America’s most congested city.

Along with that not so lovely recognition, the Cross Bronx Expressway, aka America’s Parking Long, took third place as one of the most congested roads in the nation.

The report, issued by INRIX, a company that specializes in providing data and analytics such as traffic, took a look at traffic data in last year and found that despite traffic plummeting in downtowns across the country by 44% as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic and shutdowns, New York City went from 4th in 2019 to the number 1 spot last year.

According to the data, New Yorkers lost 100 hours behind the wheel in 2020 despite a 28% drop in traffic compared to 2019.

And when you hop over to the Cross Bronx, particularly between the Bronx River Parkway and Washington Bridge (which last year was declared the 5th most dangerous spot in the nation), commuters lost 23 hours last year.

A typical night on the Cross Bronx Expressway

https://www.welcome2thebronx.com/2021/03/15/the-cross-bronx-is-americas-3rd-most-congested-road-nyc-declared-most-congested-city/

[wellst0nev0ter]

120. I don't. I take the subways

Driving is for nerds.

[George II]

126. Then you experienced this?

The fact that you take the subway doesn't mitigate the traffic issues in the city OR eliminate subway flooding.

[wellst0nev0ter]

129. Did you read my post?

A small fraction of the highway bill goes to the MTA. And it will do next to nothing to fix the leaks and the flooding.

[George II]

138. That "small fraction" is a characterization - it's $10.6 BILLION. Two NYC Representatives....

....voted against that while ALL the other NYC Representatives, including the republican from Staten Island, voted for it.

And you're saying their votes were justified?

[wellst0nev0ter]

151. Annual MTA revenues say what?

Edit:

Hint, it's more than what the MTA is getting from BIF.

[George II]

190. We seem to be going around in circles. Didn't you make a comment about...

...it taking a special kind of person to leave money on the table, yet now you're pooh pooping $10 billion?

[wellst0nev0ter]

201. Because we left a lot more than $10 billion on the table

This isn't complicated.

[George II]

204. No we didn't. The bill was worth $1.2 TRILLION, not $10 billion. It's not complicated, in fact....

....here's a Reader's Digest version of it:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/28/politics/infrastructure-bill-explained/index.html

It boggles my mind that Democrats who live in Districts sorely in need of an injection of infrastructure funds would vote for it. There were even 13 republicans who crossed over and voted for it, and EVERY Congressperson from New York City voted for it including the right ring republican in State Island.

[wellst0nev0ter]

205. More funding for the flooded MTA, boss, remember?

And actual new spending is only $500 billion. The Squad did not want to settle for less.

[George II]

206. Representatives who voted Nay were willing to settle for zero. There were 206 total who voted Nay...

200 republicans
6 Democrats

Among the republicans who voted Nay were the likes of Boebert, Buck, Clyde, Gosar, Gaetz, Gohmert, Greene, Jordan.

As the old saying goes, "politics makes strange bedfellows".

[wellst0nev0ter]

210. I already addressed and debunked the false binary in the OP, sport

We need to come up with new arguments since the old ones don't apply anymore.

[George II]

212. I'm not "sport", you like to play fast and loose with your offensive nicknames....

Legislators either vote for or vote against bills. There's no text box or options on the electronic devices they use to cast their votes.

The options are:

Yea
Nay

There's no "argument" about it.

Yea is for, Nay is against.

[Cha]

244. "Politics make strange bedfellows".. they

do indeed.

[lapucelle]

267. Hint 1: Annual MTA revenue funds day-to-day operating expenses.

Hint 2: Annual MTA revenue does not fund infrastructure maintenance or improvement.

https://new.mta.info/budget/MTA-operating-budget-basics

Glad to clear that up for you.

[ChazII]

59. Hope she does fall in line. n/t

[UCmeNdc]

93. Interesting

Link to tweet

[TexasTowelie]

99. So do you know what they are chatting about?

The picture means nothing without context. They could be discussing the upcoming Christmas party, but it's much easier to tweet a photo to smear the senator because of MESSAGING.

[George II]

107. What's the point? All Senators walk around the floor and mingle, Democrats w/ republicans....

....and vice versa.

This is from just this afternoon - Check out Gillibrand, Kelly, and Sinema chatting with Langford, Sanders chatting with another Senator, etc.

[wellst0nev0ter]

114. How long did it take to find this screenshot?

[George II]

139. After I got onto C-Span, about 30 seconds. Your point?

[wellst0nev0ter]

171. Had to applaud your effort, man

[brooklynite]

101. I've had plenty of meetings with elected officials rescheduled.

And why is getting one Bill approved worse than getting nothing approved?

[wellst0nev0ter]

117. When is rescheduling ever a good look?

And when is leaving trillions of dollars on the table ever a smart move?

[lapucelle]

268. Doesn't the OP claim that leaving trillions on the table is a good look if The Squad does it?

[questionseverything]

159. People losing the expanded child tax credit is going to be devastating

When bif was passed we lost that leverage

[brooklynite]

193. What evidence is there that there was ever "leverage"?

[questionseverything]

213. See post 29

N/t

[lapucelle]

270. Post 29 doesn't contain evidence about leverage. N/T

[tirebiter]

160. Nothing is never better than something.

This isn’t a schoolyard game. BIF should have been passed earlier. We might be seeing roads by now, for starters. Then there would be needs that would be fulfilled by passing BBB.

[wellst0nev0ter]

165. Some roads will be fixed, not all

The cost to fix America's crumbling infrastructure? Nearly $2.6 trillion, engineers say

[Demsrule86]

185. It is s start...none would have been fixed had we not passed infrastructure.

[betsuni]

186. If not all roads will be fixed, give up, do not fight. Nothing is better than something.

[Celerity]

169. theme song for some of these comments

JOE BLACK FEAT SQUEEKS - USUAL SUSPECTS

[wellst0nev0ter]

170. Hit dogs will holler loud

Also, the truth hurts

[betsuni]

173. Like the ones hollering about imaginary "broken promises" by Biden!

[Demsrule86]

174. No, they were not correct. Had they won that vote, we would have two bills going nowhere.

And it is not just Manchin...I hear the progressives are refusing to remove paid family leave which is never going to pass. Both sides should negotiate and get what is possible...which is always better than nothing. I am still angry about the 'no' votes on that bill...I value party loyalty and believe that the terrible spot we find ourselves in is because of a lack of commitment on the part of some on the left and the middle to the Democratic Party. Should we lose the midterms that is all we get probably for Biden's first and second term...the same BS as what happened to President Obama.

We need to pass the BBB bill in some form. It will help with midterms. I know some here believe that if we lose the majority due to ' principles' that we will somehow be rewarded with a leftward swing in voting next time. That never happens when the GOP gets in, they drag the country to the right. As for Manchin and Sinema...consider that in those states, you are unlikely to get a more progressive Senator. Where will our majority come from once Manchin leaves the Senate? I see few opportunities on the progressive side. What progressive could win in red or purple states where we must win in order to have a majority?

[Politicub]

221. Manchin just oozes with good faith.

Or something.

[berni_mccoy]

222. Yes it was. The admin majorly FUBARed the handling of it

And now there is no BBB and no Voting Rights Act.

It’s a matter of time before Dems are forced to use reconciliation to raise the debt ceiling and they will because Sinema won’t allow changes to the filibuster.

[Polybius]

261. Squad Games

If I had the talent, I'd make a meme.

[pecosbob]

271. I for one always expected Lucy to yet again move the football away

Meanwhile the species marches merrily on toward it's very own extinction event.