Alcoholics DO get liver transplants.

[Bucky]

via https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6876525/

Abstract

Most candidates for liver transplantation have irreversible cirrhosis caused by years of heavy alcohol consumption. Arguments against liver transplantation for alcoholics include the presumption of relapse to heavy drinking, which might damage the new liver or lead to its rejection. Corresponding ethical arguments focus on the presumption that alcoholics brought their condition upon themselves and should not compete with nonalcoholics for scarce donor livers. However, experimental data demonstrate that carefully selected alcoholics can survive liver transplantation and return to the workplace as productive citizens. Moreover, it has never been considered ethical for clinicians to refuse treatment to patients for diseases that are partly or wholly preventable.

As utterly annoying as the anti-vax and anti-mask people are, insisting that the disease that put them in the crowded ICU is a hoax perpetrated by known hoaxsters Bill Gates and Anthony Fauci I do wish DUers would drop the notion that doctors and nurses are karma's agents of retribution and should refuse healthcare to people who don't mask up or get vaccinated.

If an idiot walks into a burning building, you still want them rushed to the local burn unit after they come out screaming "Maybe the fire isn't fake news!" This is about one of the core liberal values of building a society that safe and secure for all our people--yes, even for the gullible schmucks. Unlike the pro-lifers, we are in favor of saving human lives. As one libtard put it: all people are endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights, including life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Don't become what you despise. Just like we don't limit free speech to those you agree with, we don't devalue the lives and liberty of those who, for whatever stupid reasons, are devaluing their own lives.
.

[LiberatedUSA]

1. Besides what would be the ethical cut off?

What if the person stopped drinking years ago, but it developed years down the road after they have quit?

[ProudMNDemocrat]

2. Mickey Mantle for one.

Were it not for his prowess on the Baseball diamond, his celebrity, he would have not gotten his liver transplant.

[ShazzieB]

4. Yes, he got a liver transplant.

So do lots of other recovering alcoholics. We just don't hear about them, because they're not famous.

[no_hypocrisy]

5. David Crosby

[BlackSkimmer]

11. And Larry Hagman. nt

[DFW]

7. Mickey Mantle also had cancer which was advanced

He only survived his transplant two months. David Crosby is still with us.

[niyad]

22. Every time I think about him and his transplant, I think about Erma Bombeck, and how

she refused to "jump the line" to get a kidney transplant. Dozens offered a kidney, but none were a match. She did finally get one, but died shortly after. She was a recent breast cancer survivor.

[DENVERPOPS]

9. I was amazed that Dick Cheney:

#1 was able to get a heart transplant due to his age........

#2 was able to get a heart transplant almost immediately.......

#3 was able to get get one that was black and cold like the bad one he had......

[FarPoint]

13. A few others off the top of my head...

David Crosby, Larry Hagman, John Philips....all got liver transplants....

Just realize....that for the rest of their life, all transplant clients they need to stay on medication for anti-rejection of donor organ, indefinitely....it is a rigid and unforgiving schedule to stay alive....

[ShazzieB]

3. Thank you, thank you, thank you for this!

I am so, so, so tired of the posts you're talking about. Every time I read one, I think about replying but usually don't, at least not any more. I used to, sometimes, but I just don't have the energy to fight this battle over and over again. So I let the posts about how antivaxxers shouldn't be allowed in hospitals, doctors should just refuse to treat them, etc. go by. Even though I know enough about medical ethics to know that most health care professionals would be appalled by such suggestions, posting, "No! That's not how any of this works!" every time I see a post like that feels like an exercise in futility. Also, I understand and share the frustration that spawns those comments.

Reading this post makes me realize how important it is to speak out when I feel strongly about something. This line from the abstract really stands out for me: "Moreover, it has never been considered ethical for clinicians to refuse treatment to patients for diseases that are partly or wholly preventable." This is absolutely true, and it's an insult to these dedicated professionals, imo, to even jokingly encourage them to abandon the ethics of their calling.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

6. Yes but

...

Liberals would not refuse treatment, but two points:

1) People willfully avoiding proven safe common sense actions should pay for their treatment up to their ability (which might be zero). Insurance companies should require higher rates. If it bankrupts the avoider, well then they get a lesson in personal responsibility, which is what they are supposedly all about (the flip side of liberty).

2) The underlying condition is untreatable (stupidity). It's actually a co-morbidity. There are sometimes deathbed cures of this underlying condition.

Note re 1: The vaccines are safe, as proven by hundreds of millions of jabs, the VAERS self-reporting database notwithstanding: "VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning it relies on individuals to send in reports of their experiences to CDC and FDA. VAERS is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a health problem".

Note re 2: Believing that within six months (perpetual withing six months) hundreds of millions of people will begin dying in a Great Reset depopulation plan is a strong symptom of the underlying condition, but is not an excuse for #1.

[ProfessorGAC]

25. +1

Captured my views precisely.

[janterry]

8. They ask for addicts/alcoholics to be clean/sober for

several months (6 months used to be the requirement to be placed on the list) prior to transplant.

They used to exclude them from the lists (I think back in the 80's??). But there was research into inclusion - and many (post transplant) were able to maintain their clean/sober lifestyle.

Anyway, I don't remember the year of the shift. It kind of evolved post research -

The problem wasn't the ethics of general treatment.....but rather the ethics of a large transplant list and not enough organs.

The initial thought was that many would simply relapse post-op and the organ would fail (why transplant to a person who would not use the organ for a long time - when it could go to someone who WOULD use it for a long time). Again, that seems not true following research. Many do very well post-transplant. So, that knowledge contributed to the change.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

26. Interesting summary and great points. Thanks. . . nt

[BlackSkimmer]

10. K and r.

Thanks for this.

[Raine]

12. THANK YOU ❤️ 👍

I've wanted to post something along this line myself but couldn't word it right and worried about the flack I would get. The coldness and ”let them die" attitude I've seen posted here is just like what I remember hearing from the Republicans during their debates an election or so back. It's literally sickening and very sad.

[piddyprints]

14. My dentist was an alcoholic.

He had a liver transplant. Last time I saw him, I'm pretty sure he was drunk. He died a few months afterwards.

It's frustrating that anti-vax and anti-mask idiots are taking up space in the hospitals. And it's frustrating that their stubborn disregard for civic responsibility, if not for their own lives, is keeping the pandemic fueled. Still, I have to agree with you.

[gab13by13]

15. I know of 2 liver transplant cases,

25 years ago, my brother-in-law applied for a transplant, he was an alcoholic. He was told he had to not drink for a year. He quit but didn't make the year.

Another alcoholic I know got a liver transplant, don't know if he had to wait. A couple of months after his transplant I saw him drinking in a bar.

[lapfog_1]

16. Lets take the analogy you propose a little bit further

is there a set of people who NEED a liver transplant, haven't taken a drink in their life, and are denied because the alcoholics have taken all the available livers?

We only have so many ICU beds and doctors and nurses to staff them... Omicron, from all indications, is going to sweep the nation in the next month or so... and unvaccinated are going to fill the ICUs (and, possibly some of the vaccinated but not boosted)

Will we turn away the heart attack patient, the accident victim, the seriously ill from other disease BECAUSE we have a group of idiots, who despite being told for 2 years about Covid AND for a year about the availability of a vaccine, decided that the internet knows better, that the virus is a hoax, and that the vaccines are a liberal plot to kill off the human race, blah, blah, blah...

Yes I have compassion for the idiots... but I also have compassion for the rest of us... and we are going to be in the situation where difficult choices will have to be made. Sarah Palin's "death panels" are here. I would choose to save the vaccinated.

[milestogo]

17. Since you are evidently reacting to the discussion I started, let me clarify

I am talking about SCARCE RESOURCES and how they are distributed.

The shortage of ICU beds is happening in real time, right now.

Nobody is suggesting that anyone should be refused medical resources or care when there are enough to resources to go around.

We are living with a pandemic that is taxing our system to the max. Choices have to be made.

Moreover, it has never been considered ethical for clinicians to refuse treatment to patients for diseases that are partly or wholly preventable.

I completely agree with this. But when you have a shortage of resources you can't live up to it. You have to make choices based on some criteria and not pretend that we are living in a world where everything is abundant.

Alcoholics have been refused liver transplants. So have non-alcoholics over age 60. These choices have always been made.

[Bucky]

24. We are nowhere close to exhausting our resources.

They haven't been allocated efficiently, but that's separate issue.

I responded to your post because you were perpetuating a false belief. I don't doubt the sincerely of your beliefs. But you need to know they're predicated on ignorance about medical ethics.

[Talitha]

18. "Don't become what you despise."

Well said!!!

[Skittles]

20. yes

well-said indeed

[Elessar Zappa]

19. I basically agree but I hate

that people with other serious diseases can’t get into the ER or ICU because anti-vaxxers are taking up all the room. It doesn’t seem fair to me.

[KentuckyWoman]

21. I agree ENTIRELY.

We treat injured skiers, mountain bikers, plane jumpers, skateboarders and even those guys cleaning gutters that just know they can reach out a few more inches to the side.

We do heart bypass on people who will gobble up bacon and fast food after. I read something last week about all the assorted things pulled from people's hind ends. Now if that is not self inflicted I don't know what is.

[Bucky]

23. ha ha ha! Thank you for that!

We live in serious and stupid times.

The insertion victims suffer that we may laugh