Head Exploding. Correlation between flu shot and covid outcomes?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

Three of us have been sick as dogs for the last couple weeks. No one else who gathered for Christmas was. Serial covid rapid tests negative for the last month so we assumed cold or flu. Then something clicked this morning - everyone who wasn't sick had had the flu shot.

So as I was pondering what a great thing the flu shot is it entered my mind could there be a correlation between the flu shot and covid

Googling there's plenty of information that says the flu shot has nothing to do with covid. Until I come across this press release from the University of Miami medical school.

https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/924379

New study: Flu shot protects against severe effects of COVID-19
Peer-Reviewed Publication
UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI MILLER SCHOOL OF MEDICINE

Bottom line...snip
The analysis revealed that those who had not had the flu shot were significantly more likely (up to 20% more likely) to have been admitted to the ICU. They were also significantly more likely to visit the emergency department (up to 58% more likely), to develop sepsis (up to 45% more likely), to have a stroke (up to 58% more likely) and a DVT (up to 40% more likely). The risk of death was not reduced.

[MontanaMama]

1. It'll be interesting to see if this gets further study.

That said, I am on day 7 of my Covid journey...I was as sick as I have ever been in my life last week. I am fully vaxxed, boosted AND have the flu shot on board. I tested negative on home antigen tests the first 3 days of symptoms but had a flaming positive on a POC test a nurse friend gave me. I wouldn't wish this on anyone.

[Scrivener7]

3. Are you doing better this week? I saw your post last week, and I feel for you.

[MontanaMama]

14. Yes, thank you!

I am coming around slow but sure...a little more energy every day. I hope that someday we understand why this hits people the way it does.

[Scrivener7]

16. So glad to hear you are on the mend!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

17. Good. We've decided it's best to say we think we hit rock bottom

the other day so people know you are still sick. But, I tell you, it's the best feeling in the world to make a turn. There is so much fret playing into this that's hard to avoid.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

4. Sorry to hear that. Do you have a feel for how much longer

you'll have to suffer? I have never been as sick as I have been with the self diagnosed flu. These are really bad days for so many people. So sick of hearing people say oh I have covid but I'm just fine. Not much worse than a paper cut.

As for the study that I posted, it was dated in August of 2021. And I have never heard about it. General public should know!! Err on side of caution. Data gathering and analysis should be centralized.

[MontanaMama]

15. I have no idea...I am improving every day.

It was worse than I ever could have expected and yet I cannot imagine what it would have been like if I'd been unvaccinated. My 16 year old son is still negative as of last night...my husband had very mild cold like symptoms. There's no rhyme or reason to it.

ETA: I've considered co-morbidity with the 3 of us. I don't have any that I know of...my husband carries a little more weight than he should and has high blood pressure that is controlled with medication but that's it. I will say that when I get a cold, it seems to always settle in my lungs...I have that tendency. I have never had the flu that I know of.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

30. How are you and yours today MM?

[MontanaMama]

31. Hello! Better, thank you.

Improving every day. Still congested and coughing but the fogginess in my head and thought processes is so much better than yesterday. Hubs is back at work and I plan to be there tomorrow if I stay on track. Covid brain was the scariest part for me. It made me feel like I have dementia...so frightening.

How about you? It sounds like you were quite sick.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

32. That's great news. Does this mean you will

Start sounded a lot smarter around here ?

Ugh.. sister and I still down with what we are guessing is bad cold or flu. Long past being "souped" out . Read cold lasts longer than flu so must be that. Also read you can build covid antibodies from having cold ! Woohoo

So glad you turned the corner!!

[Grasswire2]

19. Just for the usefulness of info -- did you also swab your throat on the home tests?

Many people are reporting that if they swabbed nostrils AND throat (throat last) with the same swab, they came up positive, AFTER a nose swab had come up negative.

It's now recommended to swab throat with same swab after the nostrils, and then test it.

[MontanaMama]

20. I didn't swab my throat.

At the time, I was following the directions exactly because they warned of the false negative if I didn't. The nurse counseling me advised that antigen tests were missing Omicron and I needed to use a different type of test. I'm curious if these testing companies will change their testing instructions to include swabbing the throat as well?

[Grasswire2]

21. don't know what the companies will do

the word out on the Internet seems to be telling people now to swab nostrils then throat.

Too many false negatives, and we know how dangerous that is.

I hope you are feeling better soon, MM.

[Scrivener7]

2. Strangely, the article doesn't say how they handled Covid vaccine status in the study.

I would imagine that is included in the "not limited to" part of this quote:

The two patient groups were then matched for factors that could influence their risk of susceptibility to severe COVID-19, including but not limited to age, gender, ethnicity, smoking, and health problems such as diabetes, obesity, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.

BUT I find it odd that it is not explicitly stated that they matched for Covid vaccine status.

Because those who get flu vaccine are clearly more likely to get Covid vaccine.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

5. You're right. Don't see it but looking further. Wonder why they would leave that factor out

It seems so obvious to layman that whether or not a person had a covid vaccine would skew these results????

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0255541

[Laura PourMeADrink]

9. See #8

[Ms. Toad]

6. It appears to me that they did not control for the likely non-independent factor

of vaccination for COVID-19.

The two patient groups were then matched for factors that could influence their risk of susceptibility to severe COVID-19, including but not limited to age, gender, ethnicity, smoking, and health problems such as diabetes, obesity, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.

My guess is that those who had the flu vaccine are more likely to have ALSO been vaccinated for COVID 19, which likely has a stronger impact on the severity of COVID 19.

The full study might provide more details (like all cases were prior to vaccination availability, they actually did separately analyze COVID vaccination as a factor), but until I see that I remain skeptical.

[ProfessorGAC]

7. Makes Sense

I know both of us have been COVID vaxxed, plus booster & a flu vax.
So, if we were in this studied group, how would we compare to people with the flu vax, but not the COVID vax?
Maybe they did, but you'd think that would be explicitly stated.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

10. See #8

[ProfessorGAC]

13. I Read They Didn't Do It

The influenza vaccine may be a viable option to attenuate the adverse effects of SARS-CoV-2 worldwide, with a specific potential to benefit populations struggling with access to or distribution of SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. Even patients who have already received SARS-CoV-2 vaccination may stand to benefit given that the SARS-CoV-2 vaccine does not convey complete immunity, although further research into the relationship and potential interaction between influenza vaccination and SARS-CoV-2 vaccination should be performed.

(The underlining is mine.)
It suggests that such relationships need to be done. The upper half of that paragraph has the suggestion that the flu vax might be a hedge for the unvaxxed.

[Ms. Toad]

11. It's obviously not the full study -

We know that the COVID vax reduces serious symptoms - and the flu vaccinated group is likely to have also been vaccinated against COVID, so the flu vaccinated group would be expected to do better.

So they may well have separated them, or all the data may have been drawn from pre-COVID vaccination data - in which case the question is irrelevant (at least as to the version of COVID floating around then). The publication date is August 2021. I would expect that to be clear in the actual study.

But the report of the study didn't say anyplace that I could find.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

8. I think the answer is in the "discussion" piece

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0255541

And it has to do with the time frame they used. Over my head for sure. Maybe you can understand? They used data from a period before the vaccine?

[Ms. Toad]

12. I just found the actual study.

It appears as though they drew data in January 2021.

My parents (in their 90s) were at least partially vaccinated by then. They both received their first vaccination in December.

Elderly patients were the first to be vaccinated - and also at specific risk for COVID. I don't think controlling for age, as a risk, works without considering COVID vaccination.

It's borderline - but I wish they had expressly controlled for COVID vaccination since the data is drawn from a period during which many in the population most at risk could have been vaccinated for COVID, as well as for the flu.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

18. They drew data from Jan 2020 to Jan 2021 to get two

Flu vaccines into it.

But you're right, there is no mention (that I could see) that they could have been picking up people at the end who were also vaccinated for Covid. Certainly seems worthy of footnote in my humble opinion.

this study encompassing the first full year of SARS-CoV-2 cases globally from January 2020-January 2021 [1, 25]. This timespan enabled our study to include data from the 2019–2020 influenza vaccine formulation as well as the most recent 2020–2021 influenza season formulation.

[ananda]

22. I read something about the flu shot being an added protection..

against virulent Covid.

It was several months ago, maybe a year.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

27. Yes it's been mentioned since July/August. Can not

Believe I missed it. Can't believe it got buried.

[milestogo]

23. I am taking all available shots, and declining shots of whiskey.

[peggysue2]

25. I'm taking all shots, plus the whiskey

Shot of rum every night. Sleeping wonderfully.

[Donkees]

24. 'But the flu vaccine itself does not provide you with any kind of cross-protection from COVID'

SEPTEMBER 20, 2021

"If you get flu, you're weakened by the flu, and you're more likely then to have bad consequences if you get COVID. So it's a good idea to get the flu vaccine for that reason. But the flu vaccine itself does not provide you with any kind of cross-protection from COVID."

https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/featured-topic/flu-shots-and-covid-19

[Laura PourMeADrink]

26. I am way too dense to understand that paragraph.

[Donkees]

28. ''the flu shot doesn't protect people against getting infected with COVID-19... ''

the flu shot doesn't protect people against getting infected with COVID-19, and getting vaccinated for COVID-19 doesn't protect people against getting the flu.

"Last flu season was incredible. We had almost no cases of flu because we were in the midst of the COVID pandemic. Everyone was paying attention to masking and social distancing. People weren't getting together in large groups. So all the things that prevent COVID also prevent flu, and there were very, very few flu cases," she says. "This year, we're afraid that with, in a lot of places, masking recommendations being relaxed, that flu will spread more easily. And the fact that no one had flu last year means there are a lot more people who are vulnerable this year. So again, another very good reason to get the flu vaccine."

https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/featured-topic/flu-shots-and-covid-19

[Laura PourMeADrink]

29. Yep. It was just the positive affect on severity. Just read that the flu shot this

Season missed a strain. Like when they make it they have to guess which strains are going to be predominant and they missed one of them. Bad time to make a mistake -- more flu, with similar symptoms to omicron, and tests very hard to find.