General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo I'm watching Midway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midway_(2019_film)and watching the carnage, death and destruction really made me angry.
Actually it really pissed me off.
So I see why Roosevelt placed Japanese Americans in interment camps -- more for their protection than anything. But then I read that many Americans viewed them suspiciously as potential spies. I'd like to think the former.
Nonetheless, I'm just viewing a movie; I didn't "live" it.
And I think people who actually lived it was less than understanding.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)A recent book, 'Shattered Sword', is an excellent read. It goes through the battle from the Japanese point of view, and as such is quite illuminating.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)hardluck
(639 posts)Here's a three hour interview with one of the co-authors discussing the book at the battle.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)abqtommy
(14,118 posts)indeed hell and it's sad that we keep doing it over and over and over.
btw -- that movie is free on Amazon Prime (with ads tho)
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)Retaliating was not a mistake.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)I see also that afterward the Navy took a contract out on Admiral Yamamoto
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)30's leading up to WWII. They had enslaved and killed millions of civilians in China, Korea and other southeast Asian countries. They worked and or starved many of them to death and and raped and brutally murdered many. Look up the rape of Nanking.
Poiuyt
(18,125 posts)Japan wanted to overtake that region of the globe and was pretty ruthless in their methods. Nanjing was particularly barbaric.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,369 posts)At least thats what I get from the history I was taught.
Theres no doubt they had massive imperialist visions and were particularly brutal to the Chinese, but the USA wasnt completely without blame for bringing all of it on.
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)Then we helped rebuild their country and helped them become a technologically advanced and economic powerhouse.of a country. I don't think they would have returned the favor had they won the war.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,369 posts)I think it was the utterly humiliating defeat that made what you state possible.
While there is no definitive proof Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto ever actually said or wrote it down, the quote widely attributed to him nevertheless turned out to be quite true;
I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.
I have found it fascinating to learn the scale and scope of the war materiel production in the United States as the war dragged on, and how much was on order and yet to be produced in August of 1945. If I remember what I read some time ago, there were over 5,000 B-29s ordered and not yet delivered that were cancelled, some 10,000 P-51s, thousands of F4U Corsairs, etc. etc. etc. By the time the spring of 1945 arrived, the war time industrial production in this country had just hit its stride, and was producing arms at an astonishing rate.
The procurement office clearly had placed orders with the producers of those weapons with the idea of a much longer war being necessary.
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)A HERETIC I AM
(24,369 posts)Not likely to ever be repeated.
I worked for a car haul firm back in the late 90s that claimed at that time to be the longest continually operating auto transport firm in the US. Their largest and longest running client relationship was with the Ford Motor Company.
Even though domestic Automobile production was halted in early 1942, E & L Transport still ran trucks throughout the war years, much of it carrying bomber fuselages from the River Rouge facility to the final assembly line at Willow Run Airport, in Ypsilanti, MI.
The amount and nature of the various facilities brought online to build the machines and train the men needed to defeat the Axis powers is simply mind boggling, all of it happening in an extremely short timeframe. There were at least 20 different facilities making bombers and fighters nationwide, some of which still exist today and others are merely scars on the landscape. Scores of training airfields including gunnery schools and bombardier training bases. My state of Florida has a bunch of these. Hell, they even had Aircraft Carriers on the Great Lakes which trained pilots to land and takeoff from them!
Let us hope such an endeavor is never required again. It all might be amazing and fascinating, but the entire enterprise or WW II resulted in the deaths of over 70,000,000 people.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)A HERETIC I AM
(24,369 posts)Every time one of those ships went down it must have created a massive oil slick.
Yeah, tens of thousands of tons worth of vessels and material at the bottom.
All of it represents the squandered wealth of nations.
Ill never forget the episode of The Undersea World of Jacques Cousteau where they visited Truk lagoon, dubbed The Japanese Pearl Harbor where an entire fleet of Japanese ships were sunk by US Navy fighters and bombers.
Humanity needs to do all it possibly can to avoid such conflicts in the future.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)A HERETIC I AM
(24,369 posts)Looks like the whole series is on there
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)pecosbob
(7,541 posts)When I was there in 1977 parts of the island were still off-limits due to un-exploded ordnance...tanks overgrown and rusting in the jungle. That was on the occasion of the Protectorate of the Solomon Islands finally being granted independence.
Savo Island...Midway, Saipan, Guam, Tinian, Kwajalein, Peleliu, Okinawa, finally Iwo Jima. Each of these battles was very grim, and in the European theater can probably only be compared to our losses in the Hurtegen Forest, or perhaps fighing our way up the spine of Italy.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,369 posts)As my dad was stationed there in the early 60s.
I dont recall any of the derelict military equipment, but my oldest brother told me they used to play in and around the pillboxes and abandoned tanks left behind.
The island hopping campaigns resulted in some brutal battles, no doubt.
marie999
(3,334 posts)Japan started WWII in 1931 when it attacked Manchuria.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,369 posts)I am referencing the oil embargo and the economic freeze of late summer 1941 as the primary motivations for Japan to go through with their attack on Pearl.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events_leading_to_the_attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#
I did not intend to speak on their attack on Manchuria.
I realize the entire time between the end of WWI and the the early 30s, including the Great Depression was tumultuous worldwide.
I am by no means an historian regarding this subject matter, and as I stated, I am relying on what I was taught in grade school and my own further study.
marie999
(3,334 posts)We should have started the embargo years before. Before the embargo, Japan was getting 80% of its oil from the US. It is only my opinion, but I bet big oil had a hand in not starting the embargo until August 1941.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,369 posts)Which is really the point I was alluding to in my post above, that the US is not an innocent bystander.
I realized long ago that all wars throughout history stemmed from one of two things;
Ego and greed.
People might say what about religion? I say thats ego.
My god is bigger and better than your god!
Oh yeah?!? .::::boom, clash, death:::: etc.
Standard Oil and the other large business interests had as much to do with policy making back then as the rest of Big Oil and industry does today, of that there can be no doubt. They wanted to sell oil to Japan for as a long as it was economically and politically expedient.
Paladin
(28,262 posts)pecosbob
(7,541 posts)Paladin
(28,262 posts)Dan
(3,564 posts)captain queeg
(10,201 posts)I doubt that was the motivator but it probably did serve that purpose. The Japanese armed forces were extremely brutal. I imagine if word got back to America thered be those willing to take vengeance on civilians.
WWII was certainly partially a race war. Also a resource war. Id read a guy whod interviewed Goering at Nuremberg. Goering said theyd never have used the atomic bomb on Germany. He might have been right. Not just because they were white Europeans though. Germany couldnt be physically isolated the way Japan was.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)but I agree with you re motivation.
My father used to tell us stories about their brutality.
He said during the Bataan Death March Japanese soldiers would bayonet babies and laugh about it.
XanaDUer2
(10,680 posts)CatWoman
(79,302 posts)especially of those who aided Americans.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Not sure of your purpose with this thread.
Please reference My Lai, Wounded Knee. I wont go on, but a simple google will blow your mind.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)I'm talking about Midway.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Huh?
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Ill refer you to what George Takei has to say on this. His family was interned.
Google is your friend. Im amazed seeing this thread here.
Hekate
(90,705 posts)
about Japan and the Greater East Asia War, in which his family, being American, had no part.
Please do not confuse the two.
Japan, that is, the nation and its military, were uncommonly brutal to those they conquered, and to a great extent have never dealt with it seriously in their history books. You should Google that.
Once WWII was over, the US helped Japan and Germany to rebuild their nations, which went a long way toward making them into allies for the rest of the century. This is a rare, if not unique, occurrence.
While America has its own sins to reckon with, they are separate from the ones being discussed regarding WWII. The US considers rape and other atrocities against civilians to be war crimes whereas WWII Japan, WWII Germany, and some other countries throughout history have considered them to be simply tactics of war.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Was part of the aftermath of the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo, which was in fact one of the factors which led to the Japanese attack at Midway. Twin-engined Army bombers took off from Navy carriers, and after dropping their bombs flew on to China, mostly coming down out of fuel in areas the Japanese occupied. Japanese occupation spread rather thin, being concentrated on communication lines and urban areas, the countryside was pretty much a no man's land into which the Japanese army made periodic incursions.
The tenor of their activities may be fairly judged by one major campaign, launched subsequent to the Communists' 'Hundred Regiments effort, which was titled 'Burn All, Kill All, Loot All'.
A book still probably available, 'Thunder Out of China' by Theodore White (who went on to do the 'Making of the President' series of campaign books), is an excellent introduction to the period. He was a correspondent at Chungking during prior to Pearl Harbor, and the book was written about 1946. Its forecast of the future did not pan out, mind, but its description and characterization of events is first rate.
Hekate
(90,705 posts)We had Red Star Over China by Edgar Snow, among others.
I ended up more interested in Japan, and ended up doing my senior paper on Japanese literature produced during and shortly after the war. It was very, very different from what came out of Europe.
betsuni
(25,534 posts)Hekate
(90,705 posts)
novel. I still have a shelf of Tanizaki and Kawabata, as you see, all older-generation. Many others as well just not current. Couldnt stand Mishima he was absolutely brilliant, but perverse.
I had the good fortune of having a history professor, Dr George Akita, who assigned not only a big fat history text, but a number of novels in translation as being key to understanding culture. Even after I graduated and changed my major to English I kept taking classes of literature in translation, because of course Dr Akita was right.
Found a remaindered copy of the complete Genji by Murasaki and plowed my way thru, then stumbled on Ivan Morriss The World of the Shining Prince, which elucidated it a lot. The complete book is huge, and one comes away with a different impression than from the small paperbacks one is assigned.
How about yourself?
betsuni
(25,534 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 12, 2022, 07:47 AM - Edit history (1)
Best thing is "The Pillow Book of Sei Shonagon," a medieval Larry David/Fran Leibowitz
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)'War Without Mercy: Race and Power in the Pacific War'.
I apologize if this is coals to Newcastle, it's an analysis of U.S. and Japanese propagandas, and the social and cultural arrangements in which each was rooted.
I have always been partial to Confucian and Taoist writings, and found myself interested in the interregnum of the war lords in China.
'People On Our Side' is another good book of Mr. Snow's. It covers events in India, as well as China and the Soviet Union. Mr. Snow for a while edited the China Weekly Review in Shanghai, when its founder, John Powell toured the Soviet Union. Powell managed to be the China correspondent in the thirties for both the Manchester Guardian and Col. McCormick's Chicago Tribune, so I figure he was a pretty square shooter in his reporting. He tracked events in Manchuria after the Mukden Incident pretty closely.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)As to the motivation for any particular action such as interment camps I am sure that they were multiple reasons. We have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight on all of the actions, things were much less clear in the midst of the times.
Recommend a visit to New Orleans and the WWII Museum if you ever get the chance it is masterfully done.
Also the books by John McManus on the Army in the Pacific Theater of Operations.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)and I bear her name (they married around the time I was born).
She passed away a couple years ago, and her family pretty much disowned her.
My cousins never knew their grandparents on her side.
And these things pretty much never entered my mind until now.
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)He had been on Saipan and Iwo Jima.
He did not talk about the war until much later on life..He was designated as a heavy machine gunner. The squadron (he was not air crew) flew modified B25's. Attacking Jsoanese shipping at night. He arrived after the Battle of Iwo Jima but said there were still entrenched Japanese soldiers on the island. I think it was Saipan where the B35's were stationed. B29 flew off a longer runway there. He said thst they had seen where the Jspanese had driven many of the native people to jump off cliffs to their death prior to their arrival. Of note my Dad passed in 2013 at the age of 89. He was a proud Democrat until they day he died and honestly he got more liberal the older that he got. He and my mother were not racist. It might have been that their parents came over from Poland and they suffereres a lot of xenophobia. My father's parents had small farm in Western, MA and died by the time he was 7. The church took the land amd he and his brothers and sisters ended up in a Cathloic Orphanage. WWII was his oass out of the orphange. He never harbored any ill will towards the Japanese or any other race fir that matter
lpbk2713
(42,757 posts)Not everything was done with the protection of the Japanese-Americans in mind.
The guns in the watch towers were pointed to the inside. And when they left, they could
only take what they could carry. All their other possessions had to be abandoned.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)pecosbob
(7,541 posts)BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Were you ok with the anti-Muslim sentiment after 9/11?
I find this thread a bit odd for this site.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)and this is the 2d time you remarked on the "oddness" of this thread.
there is a "hide thread" function.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Did you only want people to agree with you?
My parents lived through the Blitz in England and Wales. Never did I ever hear them speak badly about Germans or any other nationality.
My parents lived into their 80s and 90s. Some of their closest friends were Germans.
Sorry, I guess I just dont get your thread about hating others because youre watching a movie.
Have you seen Bridge Over The River Kwai? Empire of the Sun?
I highly recommend those movies for you.
Then watch Platoon. Full Metal Jacket. Hearts and Minds.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)and I am not about to let you tell me what I can and can't discuss.
Have a good evening.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)But ok.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)again, have a good evening.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)幸運を
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)It can be amusing in small doses....
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Annoying, even in small doses.
Odd, indeed.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)It whets the appetite for puppies in a light curry sauce.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Bless your heart.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)You've no idea how grateful we all are.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Dearie me.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)I cannot wait to see what you come up with next....
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)But carry on. I find you amusing.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Your basic problem in this thread is that you seem to be under the impression criticism of something in particular is defense of everyone else.
If I said 'your mama dresses you funny' it could not properly be taken to imply everyone else is dressed in the height of fashion by their dear mama.
Similarly, to criticize the extravagant atrocities of the Japanese in the Second World War is not an effort to defend the record of the U.S. military over a couple of centuries. Nor is it necessary to append a codicil listing some atrocious conduct by the United States whenever atrocious conduct by some other nation is mentioned.
It is unlikely anyone commenting regularly in this forum is unaware of names you wave about with instructions to Google. I do expect, though, that some persons might be surprised by the vehemence of feeling against 'Japs' on the west coast at the time, and so might speculate that, shall we say, minimizing violent disorder might have been an element in the policy. I do not think it was, but see no reason to infer deficient character in someone who on first encounter with conditions at the time wonders it if it were.
It is always my practice to think the best of people, until their behavior makes doing so impossible. That's a pretty high threshold and not many have managed to cross it.
"I should like to take you seriously, but to so would insult your intelligence."
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)This all is about the fact you think there is nothing wrong with misgendering people here. Numerous posters have pointed out how offensive this is, but youve decided to double down.
Good luck with that. You can call me the purity police because I object to misgendering. All good. Hope that works out for you.
The fact you continue to try to insult me speaks volumes about the thinness of your skin. Ive not insulted you, despite your continued efforts to attack me. I have the feeling your life has been difficult lately, so Im going to disengage from any further contact with you. I feel bad for you hon. All the best.
I have work to do on my garden now. Get outside more, dear, it will do you wonders.
Torchlight
(3,341 posts)It's like watching a chess hustler at Union Square Park getting their hands on a green tourist.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)And the amusement provided must count as a species of rent.
I enjoy chess, though I haven't played in a while, and did once years ago encounter a fellow who had set up a board on a card-table along the route to a fireworks display. I didn't last a dozen moves.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Torchlight
(3,341 posts)I hope it all works out for you better than Panko Smoobachuk.
Yandex
(273 posts)most of the others had a choice to move to someplace in the interior of the USA. Many thousands chose to do so.
There also were suspected actual Japanese spies in the UA at the time.
Don't get me wrong, it was wrong and handled wrong.
Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)museum years ago. they were very angry and bitter about how internment damaged their family as we would all be.
brooklynite
(94,585 posts)Any evidence for that?
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Ill try to find a link. Smh.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)and I do recall saying that was an assumption on my part.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Im actually amazed reading this on this site.
keithbvadu2
(36,816 posts)Japan went from basically a feudal society to a modern, military, industrial power in less than 100 years.
The only country that could do that.
The emperor said 'Do it!' and his people said 'Hai'!
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)dalton99a
(81,513 posts)totaling $15.2 billion in 2005 dollars
A close alliance with the U.S. did play a key role in their economic recovery and subsequent rise as a major economic power:
Although the Japanese economy was extremely weakened in the immediate postwar years, an austerity program implemented in 1949 by finance expert Joseph Dodge ended inflation. The Korean War (195053) was a major boon to Japanese business. In 1949, the Yoshida cabinet created the Ministry of International Trade and Industry (MITI) with a mission to promote economic growth through close cooperation between the government and big business. MITI sought successfully to promote manufacturing and heavy industry and encouraged exports. The factors behind Japans postwar economic growth included technology and quality control techniques imported from the West, close economic and defense cooperation with the United States, non-tariff barriers to imports, and long work hours. Japanese corporations successfully retained a loyal and experienced workforce through the system of lifetime employment, which assured their employees a safe job. By 1955, the Japanese economy had grown beyond prewar levels and became the second largest in the world by 1968.
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-worldhistory/chapter/japanese-recovery/
keithbvadu2
(36,816 posts)Absolutely!
Trade. Arms sales. Education. Training, both here and over there. They studied our military first hand, including tactics, logistics and weaponry.
We supplied them with raw materials.
We had to stop sending them scrap metal which they could turn into military arms.
They knew how big our battleships could be by what size could fit through the Panama Canal.
Their Zero fighters were top notch until we could finally design, and build better/more fighters.
They did not just study; they paid attention, learned, and improved.
Hekate
(90,705 posts)Unlike less-developed societies, they had a high literacy level. In addition, the Buddhist hierarchy was bureaucratized down to the village-priest level, and that had lent itself to being used by the government bureaucracy. Very accurate records were kept on people: when I told a Japanese friend how my mother had spent several decades compiling the genealogy of a number of branches of our family, my friend said she could check in on 300 years of her family at her home prefecture. (So there.)
I think once they got over the shock of being made to let foreigners in, they themselves realized they had a lot of catching up to do, and set about doing it. They were quick learners, to say the least.
The xenophobia of centuries remained, though. Revere the Emperor, Expel the Foreigner was a slogan that did not die, but only slept.
Stinky The Clown
(67,807 posts)I knew them both. They did not know each other.
Both are gone now. Both were children. Both with vivid memories. Both who received some compensation for having been there.
They lived it. When I knew them, in the 1980s, they were both clear that they had lived it. There were no good memories.
captain queeg
(10,201 posts)I guess they didnt really read your other comments too. That happens a lot in DU unfortunately. When I get that I just ignore it. Theres no use in trying to explain yourself.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)however, at the grand ole age of 66, I'm finally learning patience and restraint.
DashOneBravo
(2,679 posts)lame54
(35,292 posts)CatWoman
(79,302 posts)on the other hand, the cinematography was fantastic -- especially the dogfights.
XanaDUer2
(10,680 posts)CatWoman
(79,302 posts)now I get it!!!
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)During World War I, there were several groups of German intelligence operatives, including active saboteurs, who hid among the German-American population. In addition, there was popular pressure on the German-American community to "prove" their loyalty. As a result, many German language newspapers ceased publication, or switched to an English language format. This angered many German-Americans, causing resentments that took decades to subside.
During World War II, it was much the same. Except this time there were three "suspicious" nationalities (Japanese, Italian and German). All three had produced, before America entered the war, groups backing the new political movements back in the old country. The FBI knew that there were enemy spies in all three ethnic groups. And the Japanese spy networks were the most difficult to penetrate, largely for cultural reasons.
Much crucial information regarding Japanese espionage networks on the West Coast remained secret for many years because this data was obtained by cryptanalysis (the MAGIC system). What MAGIC seemed to reveal was that Japanese diplomats had established an extensive system of Japanese-Americans agents on the West Coast. As with many German-Americans and Italian-Americans, there were many Japanese-Americans who were still loyal to "the Old Country."
For example, some 20,000 Japanese-Americans were in Japan at the beginning of the war, all of whom (with few exceptions) renounced their American citizenship and joined the Japanese war effort. Given the nature of Japanese society and the war fever then present in Japan, it is doubtful many of these Japanese-Americans had much choice in the matter. But many of them promptly joined the Japanese armed forces or enthusiastically supported the Japanese war effort. Several Japanese-American women, known collectively as "Tokyo Rose" became prominent delivering English language radio broadcasts to American troops. One of these women was later convicted of treason, but subsequently pardoned.
The MAGIC intercepts did not detail every Japanese-Americans agent, because not all the messages could be deciphered and even then, the Japanese diplomats in America did not always use names that could be traced to a specific individual in the United States. But the FBI had picked up on some of this activity. What the MAGIC intercepts confirmed was that the extent of the Japanese support was larger than anyone had previously suspected and there was no way to assure that the majority of these traitors would be picked up even if the MAGIC information was used in a round up.
While the "invasion panic" on the West Coast, along with anti-Japanese attitudes stemming from Pearl Harbor and the well publicized Japanese atrocities in the China before the war, were a major cause of removing all Japanese-Americans from the West Coast, the main reason was the evidence of Japanese espionage activities. The Germans and Italians also had thousands of pro¬-fascist supporters in America, and thousands of these were also rounded up. The same could have been done among Japanese-Americans on the West Coast, but the added invasion hysteria and bad feelings because of Pearl Harbor, led to one of the less flattering incident in U.S. history.
There were also a few Japanese-Americans removed from Hawaii, where they comprised a large minority of the population. The main reason why the removals were not on the same scale as on the West Coast was that Hawaii was under martial law early in the war, and the West Coast was not. There was also the fact that it would have been a logistical nightmare early in the war to move that many people back to the mainland. There was also a labor shortage on Hawaii during the war and, finally, the Hawaiian population was a rather less paranoid about their Japanese-Americans neighbors than were the folks on the mainland.
Once war was declared there occurred the ancient practice of rounding up enemy citizens and others thought to be of dubious loyalty. Some 16,810 enemy aliens (non-citizens, who were not permanent residents) were taken into custody (64 percent German and Italian, the rest Japanese). These "internees" were imprisoned in what we would today call medium security prisons. But they were definitely imprisoned. This was normal in wartime. The only exceptions were American citizens of Japanese or German ancestry caught in those respective nations when war was declared. In these cases, the Japanese and German governments coerced (where needed) these Americans to "be loyal to the fatherland" and join the fight against their adopted country.
The more controversial program was the relocation of Japanese-Americans (legally resident aliens and citizens alike) from the West Coast. This began in late February, 1942, when, on the basis of Executive Order number 9066, signed by President Roosevelt on 19 February 1942, the West Coast was declared an "Exclusion Zone." This meant that any one of questionable loyalty to the United States was ordered to move to another part of the country. Rather than try to separate loyal from disloyal Japanese-Americans, all persons of Japanese ancestry were removed from the zone. The program was mandatory and, and beginning in April 110,000 Japanese-Americans were sent to relocation centers. About 40 percent of these people were long-term residents who were excluded by racist laws from becoming U.S. citizens.
The 40,000 adult non-citizen Japanese-American legal residents being relocated were questioned about their loyalty to the United States. Some 18,000 of them refused to renounce the Emperor of Japan or swear allegiance to the United States and were promptly interned as if they were enemy aliens.
It should be kept in mind that most Japanese immigration to the United States occurred before the 1930s, a time when life was quite hard in Japan. But from the 1930s on, while the rest of the world was mired in the Great Depression, Japan prospered and Japanese at home and abroad took pride in their countrys accomplishments. The improved situation in Japan, plus the usual racism immigrants suffered in their new country, caused many Japanese to return home during the 1930s. This was why there were 20,000 Japanese with American citizenship in Japan when the war broke out.
Japanese intelligence officials were well aware of the changed attitudes of overseas Japanese and they set about creating networks of spies and informers to take advantage of it. The coded messages Japanese diplomats sent home were decrypted by American code breakers and it was this information, the shock of Pearl Harbor, the invasion of the Philippines and the publics perception that the West Coast would be attacked that led to the relocation program.
Once in the camps, those who did profess their loyalty did not have to sit out the war in the "concentration camps." If they could find jobs and housing in another part of the country, they could go there and live freely until the war was over. The West Coast was still off limits because it was particularly vulnerable due to many the military bases and war factories located there. These facilities would provide much of the support for the war effort in the Pacific. If Japanese agents were in place, radio messages could be sent to Japan detailing what ships were where and in what shape. A lot of information could be picked up from talkative defense workers and sailors.
Moreover, the racism worked both ways, as the Japanese were reluctant to trust a non-Japanese as an agent. The Japanese-Americans were a perfect population from which to recruit agents, and this was exactly what the Japanese did. Moreover, many Japanese-Americans made no secret of the their loyalties before the war. But it was the ones who kept quiet that had the FBI worried.
The FBI had been keeping tabs on various Japanese-American organizations. Some of these were criminal organizations, such as the Tokyo Club and the Toyo Club, known to have ties with the Yakuza (Japanese gangsters, organized like the American Mafia), back in Japan. Others were military, such as the Society of the Black Dragon (more properly the Amur River Society), the Imperial Comradeship Society, and the Japanese Military Servicemens League, allegedly composed of Japanese veterans living in the U.S., which were secretly funded by the Imperial Army. Indeed, it was feared that there were as many as 10,000 secret Japanese reservists living in the U.S. During the China Incident, Japanese reservists living in Shanghai and other cities had proven a major asset during military operations. Some Japanese-American groups had ties to similar pro-fascist German and Italian groups.
Some say that the Japanese should not have been treated any differently than Germans or Italians. In fact, to a great extent they werent. Despite the better image of Italian- and German-Americans, the government actually began to round some of them up even before it began rounding up Japanese-Americans. The first persons relocated under Executive Order 9066 were over 10,000 German- and Italian-Americans, beginning in February of 1942. These people were also forcibly removed from the West Coast, because the military commander for the region believed there were Axis agents among them who would provide material aid to a Japanese invasion. This was supposed to have been only the initial stage in the evacuation of several hundred thousand Italian- and German-Americans, but in the end the army was overruled. Nevertheless, nearly several hundred thousand additional Italian- and German-Americans had severe restrictions placed on their activities and movements: Italian-born persons, for example, could no longer work as fishermen or live within a certain distance of the coast, a matter which proved particularly embarrassing in the case of the Italian-American mayor of San Francisco. Several hundred members of other ethnic minorities, notably Hungarian- and Romanian-Americans, were also relocated, and thousands more --by one estimate as many as 700,000 thousand-- had restrictions placed on their activities.
What caused the panic that led to the Japanese-Americans round-up on the West Coast was the fact that Japan was seen as threatening an invasion of the West Coast, while at worst the European Axis were a threat to shipping with their submarines in the Atlantic. The Pearl Harbor attack was also a major factor, as it was seen as a treacherous thing to do while, at the same time, Japanese diplomats in Washington were attempting to resolve the differences between the two nations. Germany and Italy declared war after Pearl Harbor, without benefit of any sneak attacks or other real, or apparent, treachery.
Fears that Japanese-Americans might represent a potential "fifth column" were also fanned by the Niihau incident. His airplane damaged by American anti-aircraft fire over Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941, Japanese fighter pilot Shigenori Nishikaichi managed to crash land on Niihau, the smallest of the inhabited Hawaiian islands. Convincing a local Japanese-American that the arrival of the Emperor's forces was imminent, the pilot and the Japanese-American embarked upon a violent rampage, terrorizing the island until killed several days later, leaving behind a trail of dead and injured people. In addition, the collaboration of many locally resident Japanese with Japanese occupation forces in the Philippines and other areas only strengthened the hand of those who advocated relocation of Japanese-Americans.
While an actual invasion of the West Coast was beyond Japanese capabilities, public opinion in 1942 thought otherwise. "Something had to be done," and if that something meant trampling on the Bill of Rights in the process, it was done. And regretted later. But the government knew something they dared not reveal at the time.
The American people, and government, began to regret the removal even before the war was over. Japanese-Americans fought bravely in Europe and the Pacific. The accounts of their uncommon courage in the defense of their country, despite their shabby treatment, began to make headlines in 1944. But from the beginning, there was no official policy of punishing the Japanese-Americans beyond removing them from what was then considered a war zone. The officials in charge of supervising the removal were instructed to be generous in making necessary financial arrangements. While many of the Japanese-Americans were farmers, few owned their land, most leased it. These farmers were paid for their crops in the ground and arrangements were made for leases to be taken over for the duration of the "emergency." After the war, the returning Japanese-Americans were able to make claims for losses that occurred in any event and over a quarter billion dollars (in current money) were paid by the government to satisfy these terms. About three dozen German- and Italian-Americans also received reparations for their losses due to internment, despite the fact that over 10,000 were moved, and scores of thousands more had restrictions placed on their activities.
Over the years, the myth has grown up that an entirely innocent Japanese-Americans population was thoughtlessly uprooted and tossed into concentration camps in a fit of racist hysteria. The truth was a bit more complex. Many of the Japanese-Americans so interned were disloyal, many openly so. Of those military age males who spent the war in the camps, only six percent volunteered for military service. And many of those interned were, by their own admission, loyal to Japan, not America. But most Japanese-Americans did not spend the war in the internment camps. Ironically, the guilt among Americans built in the decades after the war. The Civil Liberties Act of 1988 provided $20,000 in further reparations to all surviving Japanese-Americans who had spent time in the camps. This was paid to those who were loyal, as well as those who weren't. No similar compensation was paid to Italian- and German-Americans whose liberties had been interfered with.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)I found myself getting cross eyed.
I'm going to cut and paste into Word so that I can format for reading.
Thanks -- I'm certainly getting an education here.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)CatWoman
(79,302 posts)XanaDUer2
(10,680 posts)Poiuyt
(18,125 posts)I printed it off for easier reading
Dial H For Hero
(2,971 posts)It gives the viewer the impression that should the Japanese have been successful at Midway, they would have taken over first Hawaii and then the West Coast.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)and that was the first time I've ever heard that
Dial H For Hero
(2,971 posts)been an act of lunacy. They didn't have anywhere near the necessary available troops or transport. Even if they did (somehow) occupy Hawaii, they wouldn't have been able to supply it.
As for an attack in force on the US west coast....no. Just....no. Here's an essay detailing why an invasion would be impossible:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)One seldom has occasion to cite the Japanese Army as a force for wise restraint, but I have read a story that, during discussion of invading Australia (no more in their power really than Hawaii), a general took up his cup of tea, and saying this represents our strength, dashed it to the floor, finishing with a glance at the pool and saying you see it only goes so far....
pecosbob
(7,541 posts)Dial H For Hero
(2,971 posts)By way of illustration, I give you the Akitsu Maru, an escort carrier...of the Japanese Army.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)The Imperial Army and Imperial Navy could have had a dandy war all on their own without a gaijin in sight.