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Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 07:20 PM Jan 2022

The filibuster isn't just absent from the Constitution - it's blatantly unconstitutional.




Whether there is causation or not, the graph in Professor Reich's tweet regarding the increased use of the filibuster beginning in the late 70s tracks closely to the graph below.



Distribution of Household Wealth in the U.S. since 1989

https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distribute/table/


28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The filibuster isn't just absent from the Constitution - it's blatantly unconstitutional. (Original Post) Uncle Joe Jan 2022 OP
true--let's start giving it the treatment it deserves librechik Jan 2022 #1
This filibuster crap is just repetitive whining. keithbvadu2 Jan 2022 #2
☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️ PortTack Jan 2022 #3
Here is a good article on the filibuster LetMyPeopleVote Jan 2022 #4
Thanks for the addition LetMyPeopleVote. Uncle Joe Jan 2022 #5
Wow, are the Democrats actually, really, going to do filibuster reform? joshcryer Jan 2022 #16
This is pretty silly. The Constitution empowers each chamber the exclusive power to set their own tritsofme Jan 2022 #6
It isn't unconstitutional either. Congress is allowed to make the rules and this is the rules Groundhawg Jan 2022 #7
Article 1 Section 5 Clause 2 Kaleva Jan 2022 #8
As currently practiced, I believe the filibuster is in conflict with the 17th Amendment Uncle Joe Jan 2022 #9
The Senate can make its own rules. former9thward Jan 2022 #10
So long as those rule don't violate the Constitution. Uncle Joe Jan 2022 #11
Which is why in the graph 21% of the population... joshcryer Jan 2022 #14
The vote for final passage is always only a simple majority. tritsofme Jan 2022 #20
That's a pretty small fig leaf as no policy can be passed if debate isn't ended. Uncle Joe Jan 2022 #24
Not necessarily true, cloture is not required when there is unanimous consent to move forward. tritsofme Jan 2022 #26
Requiring a super majority to overide a filibuster is still one vote for every Senator. Kaleva Jan 2022 #12
Each Senator has one vote. Nothing in the Constitution requires a simple majority to pass a Bill brooklynite Jan 2022 #19
Reich is arguing simple+1 would be unconstitutional. joshcryer Jan 2022 #13
Robert Reich has certain skills...Constitutional Law is not one of them brooklynite Jan 2022 #15
But an originalist might agree with him. joshcryer Jan 2022 #17
"Any Senator may call for a vote..." brooklynite Jan 2022 #18
Here: joshcryer Jan 2022 #23
Yes, I know that any Senator CAN bring up a vote: no reason to assume Democrats will support it. brooklynite Jan 2022 #25
Yeah, unity isn't a Democratic party attribute. joshcryer Jan 2022 #27
The courts, least of all those purporting to be "originalist" would never entertain the idea tritsofme Jan 2022 #22
Tyranny of the Minority: The Unconstitutionality of the Filibuster BeckyDem Jan 2022 #21
Thanks RobtREICH, I needed this exegesis. Am convinced. UTUSN Jan 2022 #28

librechik

(30,674 posts)
1. true--let's start giving it the treatment it deserves
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 07:23 PM
Jan 2022

Throw it into the dustbin of history, where it belongs. One person one vote. Across the board. (and that goes for the electoral college as well.

keithbvadu2

(36,819 posts)
2. This filibuster crap is just repetitive whining.
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 07:54 PM
Jan 2022

This filibuster crap is just that, repetitive whining. Both parties have had the opportunity to get rid of it but they both feel that it could be useful in the future.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
16. Wow, are the Democrats actually, really, going to do filibuster reform?
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 09:35 PM
Jan 2022

Please oh please god please.

Literally the entirety of my entire political life this cancer has made everything total trash.

tritsofme

(17,379 posts)
6. This is pretty silly. The Constitution empowers each chamber the exclusive power to set their own
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 08:22 PM
Jan 2022

rules.

Only the Senate can act to change its rules.

Kaleva

(36,307 posts)
8. Article 1 Section 5 Clause 2
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 08:54 PM
Jan 2022

"Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member."

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/article-1/section-5/

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
9. As currently practiced, I believe the filibuster is in conflict with the 17th Amendment
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 09:10 PM
Jan 2022


(snip)

Amendment XVII (1913)

The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures.

When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.

This amendment shall not be so construed as to affect the election or term of any Senator chosen before it becomes valid as part of the Constitution.

(snip)

https://www.senate.gov/civics/constitution_item/constitution.htm#a1_sec1




For one Senator to simply state their opposition and their vote become the power of 11 Senators, that's the De Facto effect.

Thus I believe a filibuster as currently practiced unless specifically authorized in the Constitution is in itself more than one vote by a Senator and thus in violation of the 17th Amendment.

former9thward

(32,017 posts)
10. The Senate can make its own rules.
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 09:14 PM
Jan 2022

They are authorized to do that in the Constitution. Each Senator does have one vote. There is no conflict.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
11. So long as those rule don't violate the Constitution.
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 09:23 PM
Jan 2022

If every Senator has one vote then 51 49 wins, any more votes required than a simple majority to pass policy diminishes the value of one Senator's vote below 1.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
14. Which is why in the graph 21% of the population...
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 09:28 PM
Jan 2022

...has power over the other 79%.

The framers surely did not want this.

I say, OK, we don't want to get rid of the 60 vote rule, just get rid of the silent filibuster. It's social media time. Let these psychopathic Republicans blather on and give us little soundbytes to rip them into shreds.

tritsofme

(17,379 posts)
20. The vote for final passage is always only a simple majority.
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 09:49 PM
Jan 2022

The 60 vote requirement is to end debate, not for passage of the underlying bill.

Every senator still has one vote, the Constitution still empowers each chamber to set their own rules.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
24. That's a pretty small fig leaf as no policy can be passed if debate isn't ended.
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 10:05 PM
Jan 2022

The Senators' individual votes are diminished to less than 1 as a result of filibuster requiring a super-majority for issues and polices not covered in the Constitution.

Each chamber can set its' own rules so long as they don't violate the Constitution but the current manifestation of the filibuster is in conflict with the 17th Amendment as it damages or degrades the Senators' one vote rule.

tritsofme

(17,379 posts)
26. Not necessarily true, cloture is not required when there is unanimous consent to move forward.
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 10:24 PM
Jan 2022

It is not a “fig leaf” it is how the Senate has chosen to structure its rules.

Aside from all this, these rules will persist until members decide to change them. Courts would never entertain a challenge asking them to referee an internal rules fight in the Senate, this is a classic political question.

Kaleva

(36,307 posts)
12. Requiring a super majority to overide a filibuster is still one vote for every Senator.
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 09:25 PM
Jan 2022

"The power to make rules is not one which once exercised is exhausted. It is a continuous power, always subject to be exercised by the house, and within the limitations suggested, absolute and beyond the challenge of any other body or tribunal."

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S5-C2-1/ALDE_00001041/

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
13. Reich is arguing simple+1 would be unconstitutional.
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 09:27 PM
Jan 2022

Under an originalist majority rule interpretation. It's convincing.

The filibuster should've been changed to end debate to 51 votes a long time ago. Especially with the silent filibuster being the practice.

brooklynite

(94,588 posts)
15. Robert Reich has certain skills...Constitutional Law is not one of them
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 09:33 PM
Jan 2022
Article I, Section 5: "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member."


An important point. The Filibuster does NOT prevent the passage of legislation. The Filibuster prevents the ending of debate on an issue. It is arguably no different than requiring that a Bill first be approved by a Committee or a Rules Committee determination of debate and voting process. Fully within the "rules of its proceedings" provision.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
17. But an originalist might agree with him.
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 09:42 PM
Jan 2022

Reich is arguing an originalist view? That the filibuster didn't originally exist, that the constitution favored majority rule, all that jazz?

I agree though that the filibuster is not stopping a vote, it is simply the proceedings at large and I think one could make that argument, but an originalist court may not be swayed.

As I said when Sanders did his dog and pony show, any Senator may call for a vote on a piece of legislation, which of course would result in a filibuster, but then, you do it again. And again. And you keep doing it until the whole country goes WTF is going on.

brooklynite

(94,588 posts)
18. "Any Senator may call for a vote..."
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 09:46 PM
Jan 2022

You won't get that Republicans voting against it message, because the first thing you'll need to do is get a majority to approve bringing the Bill TO a vote. That is considered the prerogative of the Majority Leader, and I'm not aware that Schumer will support it.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
23. Here:
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 10:01 PM
Jan 2022
https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/RS21255.html

Senate Rule VIII, paragraph 2, which provides for the motion to proceed, places no restrictions on who may offer the motion.


Ironically McConnell is one of the people who has used this procedure in the past. Rules for thee, not for me, and all.

tritsofme

(17,379 posts)
22. The courts, least of all those purporting to be "originalist" would never entertain the idea
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 09:54 PM
Jan 2022

of refereeing a Senate rules dispute.

If ever there was an example of a “political question” that courts do not touch, this would be one of them.

BeckyDem

(8,361 posts)
21. Tyranny of the Minority: The Unconstitutionality of the Filibuster
Mon Jan 10, 2022, 09:51 PM
Jan 2022

by Madeleine Polubinski

Excerpt:

The text of the Constitution and the history of Congress suggest that the filibuster as a debate-enhancing mechanism is constitutional. As legal scholar Michael Gerhardt argues, “the filibuster derives its principle authority from the Senate’s express power to design its own procedural rules to govern its internal affairs.” At its core, the filibuster regulates internal procedure, and thus the supermajority requirement for cloture is well within the Senate’s power.

Many scholars argue that cloture requirements reflect many of the principles underlying the Senate. Despite its potential for abuse, the filibuster, fundamentally a mechanism to continue debate, embodies the Senate’s deliberative nature. Although the Constitution makes no mention of a filibuster, the process has a long history dating back to 1806, which some argue proves its legitimacy. Furthermore, the filibuster may enhance protections of minority interests and promote consensus, producing more agreeable and thorough legislation.

However, the filibusters’ debate-promoting potential is inextricable from, and ultimately overshadowed by, its obstructionist implementation. For more than a century, senators have exploited cloture rules to stall Congress or block legislation altogether. Filibusters have become less about debate and more about grandstanding for media attention or simply killing time to stall a bill. After exhausting relevant topics, which are rarely genuine efforts for further deliberation, speeches often devolve into unrelated topics that range from discussions of salad dressing recipes to recitations of each states’ voting laws.

When considering the filibuster as a supermajority requirement for regular legislation, it is clearly unconstitutional.2 As a textual matter, the Constitution appoints the Vice President as the tie-breaking vote in the Senate, providing that they “shall have no Vote unless [the Senators] be equally divided.” This provision implies that the Senate must pass regular legislation by a majority vote. The Framers of the Constitution, while concerned with tyranny of the majority, generally favored majority rule except for certain cases. In fact, the specification of supermajority requirements in the Senate elsewhere in the Constitution, like for the ratification of treaties, indicates that the Framers never envisioned a supermajority rule for regular legislation.1

https://legaljournal.princeton.edu/tyranny-of-the-minority-the-unconstitutionality-of-the-filibuster/

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