I demand an apology!

[Beastly Boy]

Too many times I've read posts accusing Garland of doing nothing. Then, the posts accusing Garland of only going after small fish followed, the big fish being someone charged with sedition, with all sorts of insinuations following this accusation. The too often expressed reasons for basing these accusations on nothing were along the lines of "if I am wrong, I will apologize, but if I am right, we are fucked".

Well, a lot of people were wrong (and you know who you are). Ten people were just charged with seditious conspiracy. Time to apologize, folks!

But wait, there is more! I want retribution. A nickel for every time I heard "if I am wrong, I will apologize". Donated to DU.

[edhopper]

1. I agree this is good

but I will apologize when major Administration figures are indicted and not just the rabble or rabble leaders. Especially the Orange Menace.

[Beastly Boy]

4. So the goal post has moved. Again.

Ok, I am patient. Don't forget your promise.

[edhopper]

7. It never moved

I have said from the beginning that he must go after senior Administration officials and Members of Congress. Not doing so because of the fear of looking "political" will result in a successful coup next time.
This has always been my position about Garland.
I applaud these arrests and the charges, but if it ends here, they are just scapegoats.

[Beastly Boy]

8. Ok, looks like I am out of a nickel. For now.

Don't take my post personally. Still, I am looking forward to a link where you were clear of the position of your post, so I can track it for future developments

[edhopper]

9. It's been my position

I can't promise that it was clear in what I said. But that would be on me.

When I said "big players" in this thread, I did not mean these lunatics. I meant the government officials who instigated it all.

But I admit that isn't clear from my post.

[CentralMass]

40. This has always been the concern. Republican administration are never held accountable

for their misdeeds. Going back to at least Itan-Contra. Ths ultimate example will be if the Orange Anus is on the ballot in 2024.

[Cha]

10. I was just going to say..

"moving goal posts, much?"

And, good luck with getting the whole apology thing!

[edhopper]

11. What goal posts did I move?

I have always said Big Players, i.e. Congress members, and Trump officials.

This is a good thing, it just better not be the end of it.

[Cha]

16. Good for you.. AG Garland

said it wasn't the Last of it.

[Beastly Boy]

15. I am holding my breath, Cha.

Tou think that's unreasonable?

[Cha]

17. You better not!

Fortunately we have AG Garland on the job and PJB!

[Beastly Boy]

33. Ok, I will inhale this time. But only because you asked me!

[iemanja]

46. No it hasn't

The goal post is the same. It was never about random fuckwads but the people are the top. But it is interesting that you are more invested in defending Garland than seeing the politicians who orchestrated the rebellion see justice.
What makes you think he even needs your defense of his virtue?

[Beastly Boy]

50. In the long run, I don't care about Garland. I am defending the rule of law.

Garland is merely a convenient figurehead who is being pissed on by ignoramuses demanding instant gratification without any knowledge of due process of law.

And no one should apologize for welcoming indictments against random fuckwad who conspire to commit sedition against the United States.

[iemanja]

57. Why does your notion of the rule of law

exclude the highest-level organizers of the coup?

[Beastly Boy]

59. It doesn't. I am at a loss what in this entire thread made you think

that my notion of law excludes the highest level of organizers.

Could you refresh my memory and quote me directly? I would appreciate it.

[iemanja]

60. You insisted that not being satisfied with today's indictments

equated to moving the goalposts. Looks to me that you're the one moving goalposts.

[Beastly Boy]

61. Indeed. But my question to you had to do with your statement, and I quote:

"Why does your notion of the rule of law exclude the highest-level organizers of the coup?"

I requestes that you find anything I stated that would explain why you think my notion of the rule of law excludes the highest level organizers, as per your direct quote. You didn't find anything remotely resembling the notion that you attributed to me. Instead, you are replying with, and I quote: "You insisted that not being satisfied with today's indictment equated to moving the goalposts.", which has nothing to do with what you posted previously, or my reply to what you posted.

Now, I don't mind changing the subject if you choose to do so. But let's do it after you find a quote that I asked for.

[Lunabell]

2. As I've always said.

I watch enough ID channel to know that the wheels of justice sometimes turn slowly. They're building an airtight case. I just hope that shit flows uphill!

[SWBTATTReg]

3. Really!! I want to see this!! I'm going to go out there and search for it on DU immediately

right after this post. I just wanted to thank you for the heads up!

[Beastly Boy]

6. Thank you for the effort, but for the record: I can't pay the commission.

I am strictly a non-profit establishment. All the nickels go to DU.

On edit: I mentioned that they know who they are. I am absolutely positive that all of them will come forward and make your job easier.

[Sherman A1]

5. Oh

[former9thward]

12. The people charged were people no one has ever heard of.

Goofball losers that no one gives a damn about. I doubt those were the type of people that posters wanted charged.

[Beastly Boy]

18. Are you saying that DUers don't care if conspirators and seditionists are being chareged if they

are not famous?

Ok, let's wait until Prince Andrew is charged. I doubt it would be for seditious conspiracy, though.

[BumRushDaShow]

21. At least 2 of them on the charging document were listed as "body guards" for Roger Stone

Extremism

March 10, 2021
Roger Stone’s Latest Mess: His Oath Keeper Bodyguards Arrested in Capitol Attack
The arrests could cause new legal trouble for the longtime Trump adviser.

Dan Friedman
Reporter


Roger Stone has an Oath Keeper problem. In recent days the FBI arrested two men, Joshua James, the owner of a cleaning services company in Alabama, and Roberto Minuta, a Newburgh, New York, tattoo artist, for taking part in the seditious attack on the US Capitol. Both men are members of that far-right militia. They each were part of a group of Oath Keepers that provided security for Stone, the longtime Trump adviser, the day before the assault, when Stone was in Washington, DC, whipping up support for the January 6 protest. That brings to at least five the number of Oath Keepers arrested in relation to the attack who also appear to have guarded Stone at Stop the Steal events. The Justice Department has alleged that three of these militia members helped plan the Capitol onslaught and were part of a conspiracy to block Congress from certifying Joe Biden’s victory.

This could create legal problems for Stone, a self-described political dirty trickster, who last year received a pardon from President Donald Trump related to his conviction for lying to Congress in 2017 during the Trump-Russia investigation. Prosecutors are reportedly investigating Stone’s communications with extremists involved in the Capitol attack. The arrested Oath Keepers will likely face pressure to cooperate with prosecutors and reveal any information they may possess about any involvement Stone or other Trump associates may have had in plans or preparations to invade the Capitol.

Stone has repeatedly denied having advance knowledge of the attack. He says he was not present at the January 6 rally held at the Ellipse and that he did not participate in the ensuing march on Congress by thousands of Trump supporters. He also maintains that he did not know the Oath Keepers who provided security for him at events in Washington, DC, and in Florida in the weeks before the attack.

The Oath Keepers—a loosely organized far-right outfit composed of former law enforcement officers and military personnel—provided security for Stone at several events on January 5. And Minuta and James were part of that detail, which possibly included about a dozen members of the group. Minuta was arrested on Saturday in Newburgh, where last May he gained notoriety for refusing to follow COVID-19 restrictions and close a tattoo parlor he owns there. James was arrested Tuesday in Alabama. Both face charges related to entering the Capitol on January 6.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2021/03/roger-stones-latest-mess-his-oath-keeper-bodyguards-arrested-in-capitol-attack/

[lame54]

13. And if you don't get it you're leaving DU - kudos on making a stand

[demmiblue]

20. Heh.

[Beastly Boy]

25. If I don't get the apologies I so deserve? Gee, the thought of people who pledged to

apologize and went back on their word never crossed my mind!

Hmmm...What would I do? Probably inundate DU with silly conspiracy theories about why they keep silent and do nothing.

[Silent3]

14. Wake me up when it's Trump or one of his congressional/White House minions n/t

[Beastly Boy]

19. Deal. Nighty night!

[mcar]

22. Kick

[Emile]

23. So TFG is facing 20 years for orchestrating a Seditious Conspiracy.!

[uponit7771]

24. Naw, not yet ... these are still low hanging fruit. We'll see, bought himself some time no doubt

[Beastly Boy]

27. Seditious conspiracists are low hanging fruit?

Who would fall into the category of high hanging fruit then? Dr. Evil?

[uponit7771]

28. You understand *WHO* I'm referring to.

[Beastly Boy]

31. Yes I do. I also understand they are no low hanging fruit by any means.

[uponit7771]

32. This is false, these people are nobody's in the end. They never held any power or affluence

[Beastly Boy]

35. So people who conspire to incite rebellion only count if they are powerful or affluent?

You know, Hitler was a frigging unemployed corporal before the Beer Hall Putsch...

[uponit7771]

36. No, but you know this and are talking around the fact that the people with power and affluence

... for the last 5 years have not been brought to justice by the DOJ.

Putin's Whore admitted on TV to firing Comey because he was investigating him, that doesn't need and "investigation" or none other bullshit.

[Beastly Boy]

39. Yes, I know this. And I am not talking around the issue. I am talking about a completely different

issue.

Do you really only want the powerful and the affluent indicted? What is wrong with indicting people who incite insurrection regardless of their status?

[Act_of_Reparation]

44. You know very well critics of Garland want him to move on prominent Trump admin officials...

...and prominent GOP figures and affiliated media personalities.

This guy, however serious his crimes may be, is no one of national prominence and his prosecution is not in any way a signal of Garland's intent to pursue charges against government officials or high profile media personalities.

[Beastly Boy]

48. That's not the only thing they want.

They want a scapegoat. And what they want is irrelevant in the context of administering justice. They have no clue what Garland is doing or not doing, yet they find him at fault. They don't even know the laws and statutes that limit Garland. They are just upset that Garland is not doing what they want quickly enough for their gratification.

And charges of sedicious conspiracy against the United states make "this guy" (there are actually eleven of them) someone of national prominence.

[ShazzieB]

49. Psst!

I'm with you, Beastly Boy. Just wanted to say that.

[Beastly Boy]

51. Thanks

I am actually enjoying this. I wish I could type faster.

[LakeArenal]

55. I'm in. At this point Garland is damned if he's thorough and damned if he's expedient.

Some seem to be political mind readers.

But apologies.....dear heart..?

Not bloody likely. Even if Trump is charged.

[Jedi Guy]

67. Ditto what ShazzieB said.

The daily moaning and bellyaching about Garland doing nothing is comical or irritating, depending on my mood. Evidently on the afternoon after he was sworn in, he was supposed to personally lead the raid on Mar-a-Lago, kick down the doors with a mighty crash (of justice!) and frog-march TFG out, pausing only long enough for a photo op before bundling Dolt 45 into a van.

What's that you say? Justice takes time? But I want it noooooooooooooow!

[PTWB]

26. It's good that these nuts were charged.

But these were ordinary folks. Ordinary folks are often charged when they commit crimes.

We are waiting for the extraordinary. We want to see the ruling class face charges for their role in the seditious conspiracy. We want to see charges for the Congress people who gave guided tours to the terrorists in the days leading up to the insurrection. We want to see charges for those same Congress people who conspired and communicated with those same insurrectionists before, during, and after.

We want to see charges for the state officials who forged electoral votes.

We want to see charges for Trump and his senior administration officials who planned, instigated, orchestrates, and facilitated this coup attempt.

When those people face charges you’ll be able to crow. But not a moment sooner.

I saw some folks up thread claiming that those with my view are “moving the goalposts” but that couldn’t be further from the truth. Anyone who thinks that we are moving the goalposts by demanding accountability for those in our society who often escape it simply had no understanding of the original goals and the original outrage.

[Beastly Boy]

29. These are not ordinary folks. They are seditious conspirators.

And they are not tourists taking a leisurely walk through Congress either.

[PTWB]

34. Yes they are ordinary folks.

They’re ordinary folks who committed extraordinary crimes. And they’re rightfully facing charges.

But where are the charges for the folks who so often escape justice in our society? Where are the charges for the folks who committed these same crimes, and worse, but instead of sitting in jail are sitting in their offices in Congress? Or sitting in front of the TV in Mar-A-Lago?

Where are the charges for the seditious conspiracists who were high ranking officials in Trump’s administration? Or for Trump himself?

You’re welcome to cheer for these charges. We all are. But don’t suggest anyone should be satisfied by these charges.

These are still the little fish even though the charges are more serious.

Justice has not been done. Not by a long shot.

[Beastly Boy]

37. Committing extraordinary crimes makes them extraordinary folks.

As I already mentioned, Hitler was a friggin unemployed corporal before the Beer Hall Putsch.

[PTWB]

38. Right.

You’re saying there’s no difference between Bob the mechanic who committed seditious conspiracy and the senior administration officials, congress people, and President of the United States who committed seditious conspiracy?

That makes sense.

[Emile]

41. +1

[Beastly Boy]

42. As far as administering justice, absolutely!

You are not suggesting that sedition committed by Bannon and sedition committed by Bob the mechanic ought to be addressed differently, are you?

[PTWB]

47. Absolutely not.

Which is why it is a travesty of justice that folks like Bob the mechanic are facing charges while the senior administration officials, Congress people, elected state government officials, and Trump himself, have yet to be charged.

That’s why it’s so shocking that you think those of us advocating for justice would be satisfied by these charges.

[Beastly Boy]

53. You are completely wrong.

Indeed, senior administration officials escaping justice is a travesty. But Bob the Mechanic who conspires to overturn duly elected government is not. It is the definition of justice, especially from your perspective.

Unless I missed your point and you are not advocating equal justice for all. You are not saying that Bob the Mechanic is free to commit sedition until senior administration official are charged first, are you?

[PTWB]

62. That's exactly the opposite of what's being said.

In your original OP you "demanded an apology" from posters who've expressed their concerns that the DoJ has failed to charge the so-called "big fish" responsible for the coup attempt on January 6th. Your justification for demanding that apology was that the DOJ has now charged ordinary folks with seditious conspiracy, while ignoring the fact that our demands for justice have yet to be satisfied.

We want charges for ALL of those who are criminally responsible for January 6th. That includes the grunts like Bob the mechanic, sure. Bob and his treasonous terrorist drinking buddies should all face charges for whatever crimes they committed. But to suggest that Bob's charges should satisfy us simply shows that you never read or never understood what we were demanding in the first place.

We're demanding accountability for everyone involved in the planning, orchestration, and incitement of the January 6th insurrection and the entire attempted coup. We're demanding accountability and criminal charges for the Congress people and senior Trump administration officials who collaborated and conspired with the terrorists. We're demanding accountability and criminal charges for the state-level officials who forged electoral votes. We're demanding accountability and criminal charges for Donald Trump himself.

Until they're charged by our DoJ, every single one of them, we will not be satisfied.

[Beastly Boy]

65. You are distorting what I said in the OP.

Let's go back to it and see exactly what I posted:

Too many times I've read posts accusing Garland of doing nothing. Then, the posts accusing Garland of only going after small fish followed, the big fish being someone charged with sedition, with all sorts of insinuations following this accusation. The too often expressed reasons for basing these accusations on nothing were along the lines of "if I am wrong, I will apologize, but if I am right, we are fucked".

First and foremost, my facetious, if you still have doubts about it, demand for an apology has to do with people who accused Garland of doing nothing and, further, assigning some sort of evil premeditation to Garland's silence. Second, I demanded an apology from people who previously defined the "big fish" as those committing sedition. Their definition, not mine. I never commented on any DOJ cases that may or may not address even bigger fishes than that, simply because I, like everybody else, have no clue of what their intention is in this regard. Your definition of "big fish" was entirely outside of the context of my OP. I was addressing the indictment of eleven seditious conspirators.

My replies to you had to do with what I mentioned in the OP that clearly uses the definition of the "big fish" offered by Garland's critics. You decided to attribute this definition to me, and classified the conspirators in the category of "Bob the driver". I disagreed with you putting Bob the driver outside of the "big fish" category. I still maintain that anyone accused of seditious conspiracy is "big fish, not only by my standards, but by the standards of certain Garland critics. Neither I nor they consider seditionists "ordinary folks". In fact, I reject any such portrayal.

Does this make me an apologist for what you consider "big fish"? Absolutely not! Like you,, whether I addressed it in the OP or not, I want charges for ALL of those who are criminally responsible for January 6th. But this is a far bigger theme than I intended to raise in my OP, a theme that deserves its own thread. Should you decide to start such thread, I promise, I will kick and rec it.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

68. Ok... I'll recap. You are saying people here accused

Garland of doing nothing. Never saw that. Maybe you could provide a link. I only saw people saying that they feared Garland wasn't going after trump et al. Today's indictments we're great! But we want trump arrested yesterday. He's been a criminal for 5 years now.

[Beastly Boy]

69. I was so certain that the culprits themselves would have come clean with their profuse apologies,

making your request for links redundant and my tedious search for them unnecessary! Alas, my disappointments with humanity are endless! So, I am left with no choice but out them myself.

Let's start with those who explicitly promised to apologize/admit they are wrong.
https://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16215858
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16159471
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16151035

Add to that the posts claiming Garland is sitting on his hands doing nothing.
https://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16215949
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16236385
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16236616
https://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16213040
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16158060
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16158132
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16159186
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16148943

Continue with the definition of "big fish" as conspirators/seditionists.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16158327
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16162058
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16158038

And just for fun, those who propose to go after Trump as first order of business for Garland, or else.
https://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16215846
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16154579
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=16150781

I am surprised you never saw any of the above linked posts, but I will concede it's a possibility. Glad to have been of help.

Of course, there are also those like yourself who are still holding on to their fear that Garland isn't going after Trump et al. I guess I will have to address these people separately, in due time. But you must realize that anyone's wishes to have Trump arrested yesterday do not create a sense of obligation on the part of DOJ.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

70. Thanks for pulling all that! It must have taken a long

time to find. Read all of them. Maybe I missed it, but didn't see anything that said Garland was literally doing nothing. Like sitting in his office twiddling his thumbs. Everyone knows that isn't true!

There's a lot of shorthand that people are using, that only the people who are viscerally worried that trump will not be held accountable may understand. A simple "Garland isn't investigating and indicting" doesn't mean any thing or any body. It means TRUMP!!

We don't know if he is or not. For people who by their very nature, don't accept "I trust", all we can only go on are factual clues, which many here have rightly pointed out. Like inactions before lapses in statute of limitations, comparisons to former situations, absences of typical leaks, specific indictments not handed out etc.etc.

And don't forget the backdrop fact that we just got royally burned putting all our faith in Mueller. And that was a bust. It fueled distrust in our system for holding the biggest political criminal in our lifetime to justice. Regardless of who sat in the AG chair every day.

After reading a couple good articles today from justsecurity.com about how they pieced together indictments on the insurrectionists and their communications via The Donald domain, it's abundantly clear to me that going up the chain to get trump will be a lot of tedious work. If they can't get there - him getting away with this will rank up there with Cheney's phony war and trump purposely withholding info and PPE for covid. Hundreds of thousands of humans died

[uponit7771]

43. +1

[uponit7771]

30. "simply had no understanding of the original goals and the original outrage." 👈🏾👈🏾👈🏾

[BlueIdaho]

45. This is a good start...

I need to see more.

[ancianita]

52. I'm with you!

[Beastly Boy]

54. Demand an apology too!

Eveery nickel for DU counts!

[ancianita]

56. Don't be literal.

Last edited Fri Jan 14, 2022, 03:18 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm not taking others' errors in judgment as some judgy mcjudge moment. We err on different sides sometimes.

But people SHOULD listen when others present their well detailed cases for trusting Democratic administration Majors. I put a LOT of effort posts out on Garland's behalf.

We don't need any sunshine Democrats. We need committed, well researched, good analytic partisans.

I consider this an Obama "Come ON!" moment, is all.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

71. Well stated

[KS Toronado]

58. Are you crazy a nickel? Seems more like a 10 cent crime.

And if I had a penny for every time I've heard something negative about Merrick Garland, believe I could
go out a buy a brand Harley Davidson. Plus i'll be unloading on any new negative comments I read here.

[panader0]

63. While many here are saying these people are "low hanging fruit" or not important,

I am happy that these are the first to be charged with "seditious conspiracy". And one of the guys
is head of the oaf keepers. So not just like the others that have been charged. Of course, we all want
to see tfg charged, and all of his higher up cohorts. But this action today is a definite step forward.

[ancianita]

72. People here miss the point when told why low hanging fruit case building and sentencing are

the foundation of the entire never-before-prosecuted officials at the highest levels of government.

And so, to get to this guy, they had to get evidence on him from the other lower members first.

Yesterday's arrest is more than a step forward. With all his computer records, arms, financials, communications, this will go all the way to the top. This will be a major evidentiary brick for the whole enchilada.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

66. ???? What??? Looking for the organizers! i. e TRUMP et al

Just read part of the transcript -. The lead Oath Keeper said trump had given them the green light!!!!

It is perfectly ok for a citizen to expect justice. I would REALLY worry if we all were just blindly trusting everyone.

“Democracy is a slow process of stumbling to the right decision instead of going straight forward to the wrong one.”