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BigBearJohn

(11,410 posts)
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 12:00 AM Feb 2022

People get upset when I asked if Tucker Carlson is breaking any laws

They said he has a right to free speech under the 1st amendment.
Federally, the courts have ruled that yelling fire in a crowded theater is not protected speech under the 1st amendment. Can somebody please explain to me how what Tucker says every night on TV is any different than yelling "fire" especially when his lies are killing people.? What am I missing?

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elleng

(131,032 posts)
1. '"Shouting fire in a crowded theater" is a popular analogy
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 12:08 AM
Feb 2022

for speech or actions made for the principal purpose of creating panic. The phrase is a paraphrasing of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.'s opinion in the United States Supreme Court case Schenck v. United States in 1919, which held that the defendant's speech in opposition to the draft during World War I was not protected free speech under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. The case was later partially overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio in 1969, which limited the scope of banned speech to that which would be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot).[1]

The paraphrasing differs from Holmes's original wording in that it typically does not include the word falsely, while also adding the word "crowded" to describe the theatre.[2]'>>>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
17. He's yelling "NO FIRE!" when the theatre is on fire.
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 12:32 PM
Feb 2022

It's equally bad.

Thanks for pointing out the key details usually omitted when semi-quoting Holmes.

brooklynite

(94,668 posts)
2. Here's an answer:
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 12:08 AM
Feb 2022

"yelling fire in a crowded theater" results in creating an implication of risk in an environment where the risk can't be evaluated before a response is needed. Carlson ranting on TV, and not professing to be an expert on any of the issues he rants about, does not create the same risk environment.

If you disagree, define WHICH statute he's violating and WHICH law-enforcement entity is intentionally ignoring his violations.

unblock

(52,283 posts)
3. I think it has to incite "imminent lawless action", see the earlier reply.
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 12:17 AM
Feb 2022

I don't think we have a legal way to stop this kind of stochastic terrorism, where we know his speech will lead to someone somewhere committing an act of violence against the groups he targets, citing the reasons he spouts. But if it's not "imminent", I'm not sure the law covers it.

Of course, if a foreign Islamic leader says crap like that, we can drone them no problem. But iokiyar.

Mr.Bill

(24,311 posts)
4. I once saw Abbie Hoffman interviewed by William F. Buckley.
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 12:17 AM
Feb 2022

Buckley asked him if he believed in free speech, does he think someone should be allowed to yell fire in a theater like the one they were seated in. Hoffman replied FIRE! FIRE!

I miss Abbie.

Nevilledog

(51,166 posts)
5. I'd read this. The yelling fire in a crowded theater idea most people have is wrong.
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 12:24 AM
Feb 2022
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20211026/20051447826/why-falsely-claiming-illegal-to-shout-fire-crowded-theater-distorts-any-conversation-about-online-speech.shtml

It keeps coming up, the all-too-common, and all-too-erroneous, trope that "you can't shout fire in a crowded theater." And it shouldn't, because, as a statement of law, it is completely wrong. It's wrong like saying it's legal to rob a bank. Or, perhaps more aptly, it's wrong like saying it's illegal to wear white after Labor Day. Of course such a thing is not illegal. It's a completely made-up rule and not in any way a reflection of what the law on expression actually is, or ever was. And it's not without consequence that so many people nevertheless mistakenly believe it to be the law, and in so thinking use this misapprehension as a basis to ignore, or even undermine, the otherwise robust protection for speech the First Amendment is supposed to afford.

This post therefore intends to do two things: explain in greater detail why it is an incorrect statement of law, and also how incorrectly citing it as the law inherently poisons any discussion about regulating online speech by giving the idea of such regulation the appearance of more merit than the Constitution would actually permit. Because if it were true that no one could speak this way, then a lot of the proposed regulation for online speech would tend to make more sense and also raise many fewer constitutional issues, because if it were in fact constitutional to put these sorts of limits on speech, then why not have some of these other proposed limits too.

But the "fire in a crowded theater" trope is an unsound foundation upon which to base any attempt to regulate online speech because it most certainly is NOT constitutional to put these sorts of limits on speech, and for good reason. To understand why, it may help to understand where the idea came from to end up in the public vernacular in the first place.

Its origins date back to a little over a century ago when the Supreme Court was wrestling with several cases involving defendants having said things against government policy. In particular, President Wilson wanted the United States to enter what eventually became known as World War I, and he wanted to institute the draft in order to have the military necessary to do it. He got his way and these decisions have become part of our history, but at the time they were incredibly contentious policies, and people spoke out against them. The government found this pushback extremely inconvenient for generating the public support it needed. So it sought to silence the loudest voices speaking against it by prosecuting them for their messages.


*snip*


Author is Cathy Gellis


Cathy Gellis is a lawyer in the San Francisco Bay Area with a practice focused on intellectual property, free speech, intermediary liability, privacy, and other innovation policy matters affecting technology use and development. She regularly writes, speaks, counsels, and litigates on these and other related topics, particularly with respect to how these issues relate to Internet platforms. Examples of her work include defending the free speech rights of anonymous bloggers, representing an organization of college webcasters before the Copyright Royalty Board, and authoring numerous amicus briefs, including in litigation regarding the scope of CDA Section 230 and cases challenging NSA Internet surveillance. Her writing on the policy implications of technology regulation has appeared in various widely-read publications, including the Daily Beast, Law.com, and the technology news site Techdirt.com, where she is a regular contributor. Prior to becoming a lawyer she was an aspiring journalist-turned-Internet professional who developed and managed websites for enterprises in Silicon Valley and Europe. She has a B.A. from the University of California at Berkeley in Mass Communications and Sociology, where she studied information technology and user adoption trends, and a J.D. from Boston University.

stopdiggin

(11,336 posts)
6. the answer is 'no' he is not breaking the law
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 12:39 AM
Feb 2022

as it is currently understood. And before you rush in to proclaim that the law must then be changed - think a little bit about what you propose. Even acknowledging that his speech is damaging (and might be construed dangerous) - would we live in a better world where speech was actively censored (by someone like Trump perhaps?) and journalists are under threat if they don't tow the (party) line? There are plenty of good examples of this type of system out there if that is what we truly want. But the prospect scares the devil out of me!

DBoon

(22,388 posts)
7. People were allowed to publicly sympathize with the Viet Cong during the Vietnam War
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 12:42 AM
Feb 2022

This did not mean that Viet Cong sympathizers were not threatened and harassed, that they were not watch closely by law enforcement, and that any minor infraction would not end up in an immediate arrest.

You could support Ho Chi Minh and not be arrested just for saying so. This did not prevent patriotic Americans from making your life pure hell.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
9. He certainly does have right to free speech, but so did...
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 01:53 AM
Feb 2022

Father Coughlin, and look what happened to him.

So does Leonard Peltier.

Rights and obligations to society are often in conflict, and sometimes it just comes down to power. Stalin is a bad guy because he simply used his power. FDR is a good guy because he balanced his in what we think are proper ways.

Bottom line is Carlson is legal but wrong and dangerous. We simply don't have any good reason to shut him down. If he gains the power to do do serious damage, shutting him down should be easy.

tiredtoo

(2,949 posts)
10. Tucker Carlson got out of a lawsuit
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 02:27 AM
Feb 2022

When his lawyers said in court. "Everyone knows he is just fibbing." I paraphrase but it was along those lines.

cadoman

(792 posts)
12. so why did that work for Tucker but not Alex Jones?
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 02:38 AM
Feb 2022

Better lawyers? Different circumstances? What?

Jones' broadcasts are even more ridiculously fake. So what's the deal?

tiredtoo

(2,949 posts)
16. I can only guess
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 12:15 PM
Feb 2022

Tucker has more money and better lawyers. Tucker covers a variety of topics. or ??

nvme

(860 posts)
11. Attack his sponsors
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 02:35 AM
Feb 2022

Once they pull out he can rant all he wants, because he won't be doing it on network.

Submariner

(12,506 posts)
13. Trust fund baby Tucker and his parents
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 05:32 AM
Feb 2022

are too damn rich to ever worry about getting prosecuted, suffering any financial penalty, or even spending an overnight in jail.

With that kind of bought freedom shitbags like Tucker reign free laughing all the way to the bank.

SYFROYH

(34,182 posts)
15. Well, for one, your premise incorrect about yellling fire in the theater
Wed Feb 2, 2022, 10:23 AM
Feb 2022

Maybe that's what you're missing.


https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-using-the-fire-in-a-crowded-theater-quote/264449/

It’s Time to Stop Using the ‘Fire in a Crowded Theater’ Quote
Oliver Wendell Holmes made the analogy during a controversial Supreme Court case that was overturned more than 40 years ago.
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