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Budi

(15,325 posts)
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 01:53 AM Feb 2022

"Nazis defined Jews by their religion (Judaism), and not by the supposed racial traits"

This is directly from the Holocaust Memorial Museum about the Nuremberg Race Laws.




Who was Jewish according to the Nuremberg Laws?
According to the Nuremberg Laws, a person with three or four Jewish grandparents was a Jew. A grandparent was considered Jewish if they belonged to the Jewish religious community. Thus, the Nazis defined Jews by their religion (Judaism), and not by the supposed racial traits that Nazism attributed to Jews.


From The Holocaust Encyclopedia
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-nuremberg-race-laws

This is a terrific, detailed & educational read on The Nuremberg Laws
113 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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"Nazis defined Jews by their religion (Judaism), and not by the supposed racial traits" (Original Post) Budi Feb 2022 OP
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/victims-of-the-nazi-era-nazi-racial-ideology Meowmee Feb 2022 #1
Then explain this as they recorded who was Jewish as in The Nuremberg Laws Budi Feb 2022 #4
Do some more reading, you are wrong Meowmee Feb 2022 #6
The question is in the paragraph I posted. Budi Feb 2022 #12
Re Read the part I linked, it is from the same site, I am not familiar with the site but it Meowmee Feb 2022 #17
Sounds like you're trying to impose a Christian understanding of religion on Judaism unblock Feb 2022 #21
Well thanks. Appreciate your reply. Budi Feb 2022 #23
It was not based on religious but race...the final solution was aimed at stamping out the Jewish Demsrule86 Feb 2022 #75
A man having his nose measured during Aryan race determination tests under Nazi Germany's Nuremberg Celerity Feb 2022 #36
Ahhh eugenics mitch96 Feb 2022 #105
✔️ ✔️ ✔️ ✔️ ✔️ n/t msfiddlestix Feb 2022 #81
Race as defined by H and others Meowmee Feb 2022 #34
letter of the law VS what happened in the real world krawhitham Feb 2022 #24
Thanks. That was all I was asking. Budi Feb 2022 #27
+1 uponit7771 Feb 2022 #51
here are the two main Nuremberg laws, translated Celerity Feb 2022 #52
Yes, but: Socal31 Feb 2022 #42
Are you fuicking kidding?! Behind the Aegis Feb 2022 #49
You must be responding to the wrong person. Socal31 Feb 2022 #54
Your own phrase: 'Jonathan Greenblatt, ADL CEO before his "whoops we got her suspended" tour' muriel_volestrangler Feb 2022 #62
In another thread, on the exact same topic, he wrote almost the same thing...almost... Behind the Aegis Feb 2022 #110
Exactly. Perfectly explained. Solly Mack Feb 2022 #111
+100 JustAnotherGen Feb 2022 #108
Did you completely miss the first 3 paragraphs? Ms. Toad Feb 2022 #2
Yep Meowmee Feb 2022 #5
Did you not read the particular paragraph I found questionable enough to Post here to discuss? Budi Feb 2022 #37
So you believe one reference, in a single sentence, Ms. Toad Feb 2022 #73
I never said I believed anything. Where did I say that? Budi Feb 2022 #77
Either you believe it, your OP was tone deaf, or you're shit stirring - Ms. Toad Feb 2022 #107
LOL.... omg.... Budi Feb 2022 #109
your own site contradicts this Celerity Feb 2022 #3
and THAT is the correct answer. WarGamer Feb 2022 #7
Already linked by me above Meowmee Feb 2022 #9
This message was self-deleted by its author Budi Feb 2022 #10
That doesn't address the quoted paragraph from the Same Link. The one in my OP. Budi Feb 2022 #14
They were not the Nuremberg Religious Laws, they were the Nuremberg RACE Laws Celerity Feb 2022 #32
They never asked my mother her religion. Not that she could answer, as an infant. unblock Feb 2022 #8
Then it was based on the grandparents religion. Budi Feb 2022 #11
I understand that you're ignoring everything else. unblock Feb 2022 #13
Apparantly Ignoring paragraphs we disagree with then, is ok? Budi Feb 2022 #16
If the Nazis couldn't find incriminating records harumph Feb 2022 #56
This is it, I lived in Germany and didn't understand HTF they knew who was who. They literally uponit7771 Feb 2022 #68
They murdered people with any Jewish blood as it was about race and not religion. I have no Demsrule86 Feb 2022 #76
Yes. I don't know why it's so difficult harumph Feb 2022 #55
Cherry picking to show the master race was not racist... Ohio Joe Feb 2022 #15
I didn't write the Nuremberg Laws ffs. Why did they include this statement in the Laws? Budi Feb 2022 #19
WOW !!! I'm reading what you're reading too and don't understand German logic on the issue. It ... uponit7771 Feb 2022 #43
Nazis may not have been bright but they were efficient dwayneb Feb 2022 #58
Jewish UK comedian and author David Baddiel totally disagrees Emrys Feb 2022 #18
I asked why the Nuremberg Laws included this Paragraphh. Budi Feb 2022 #20
I've written enough. Please reread. If you don't get it, please delete this thread. unblock Feb 2022 #22
I replied to your post above. Thanks. Its really all I asked about. Budi Feb 2022 #25
Several people here took offense. Rather than dismiss them as out of line, unblock Feb 2022 #28
No. The insensitivity was in the failure to read my 1st post asking why the Nurenberg Laws ... Budi Feb 2022 #33
As a non-Jewish outsider, seems thus: Hellbound Hellhound Feb 2022 #40
You're wrong. About me, my intent & my RACE & my belief. Budi Feb 2022 #41
This post "seems" to me to be the most shockingly offensive attack Hortensis Feb 2022 #61
"The fact that you're allowed to post here is a goddamn disgrace." Wha'? First.... George II Feb 2022 #72
Ummm. . .they are on the internet? I am Jewish. What's your point? AZLD4Candidate Feb 2022 #112
+1, "...I am owed an apology by a few here..." I agree. I lived in Germany and still never ... uponit7771 Feb 2022 #44
The parallels of Nazi bs to MAGA bs are indistinguishable Budi Feb 2022 #45
THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾 and scary as HELL as to how we've been frog boiled to accept their lingo like uponit7771 Feb 2022 #47
we've been frog boiled to accept their lingo like ... "cancel culture" Budi Feb 2022 #50
I took an opportunity to air what one Jew has said and written about the topic. Emrys Feb 2022 #60
His book is really good. Behind the Aegis Feb 2022 #31
Thank you for posting that video. Solly Mack Feb 2022 #71
Exactly! mountain grammy Feb 2022 #86
Jewish people who converted could still be forced to wear the star...and sent to the chambers... Xolodno Feb 2022 #26
Your statement just explained the unspoken mystery of my own ancestry Budi Feb 2022 #29
+1, wrote in a post before I read yours that like MAGA and "cancel culture" the dumb assed NAZIs ... uponit7771 Feb 2022 #46
Also from your link Behind the Aegis Feb 2022 #30
Right. So when they say Race, are they also exchanging the words race & Judaism Budi Feb 2022 #35
The passage describes the test they used to root out Jews Bad Thoughts Feb 2022 #38
Correct. I didn't write the paragraph. Budi Feb 2022 #39
Could the paragraph Omen78 Feb 2022 #48
It's identification Bad Thoughts Feb 2022 #53
Oh, they were OBSESSED with race, their master race, everyone else's. Hortensis Feb 2022 #57
This is starting to feel like a form of Holocaust Denial Sympthsical Feb 2022 #59
Starting??? retread Feb 2022 #63
It's a strong phrase, so I wanted to be careful in deploying it Sympthsical Feb 2022 #66
I'm sorry, this seems like a particularly bizarre hill to die on, in an apparent bullwinkle428 Feb 2022 #64
The OP is Jewish and I lived in Germany and still didn't understand their stupid assed logic when uponit7771 Feb 2022 #67
Where'd it say I was defending Whoopi, again? Budi Feb 2022 #70
As a child raised in a Jewish home, we attended religious education bullwinkle428 Feb 2022 #101
I absolutely agree that it should be part of a school cirriculum Budi Feb 2022 #103
Were Whoopi's comments poorly thought out? peggysue2 Feb 2022 #87
That is true about bringiing the conversation to the front. Budi Feb 2022 #106
Well, actually, I'm much more interested in knowing how Jews define themselves Mr. Scorpio Feb 2022 #65
Yes, seriously, fuck the Nazis. mountain grammy Feb 2022 #82
We Jews identify ourselves as Jews. AZLD4Candidate Feb 2022 #113
Brava for Whoopi for getting this topic out and on people's "let's discuss" list. rgbecker Feb 2022 #69
That is total bullshit. If that were the case, they would not have murdered those with Jewish Demsrule86 Feb 2022 #74
I didn't post it because I agree nor approve . Never ever said that did I. Budi Feb 2022 #85
I find an excuse for murderers which can be used today for would racist murderers... Demsrule86 Feb 2022 #90
Delete your post kcr Feb 2022 #78
Tell ya what. I'll just copy & paste the response I gave to the last one. Budi Feb 2022 #80
You are the one who needs to apologize kcr Feb 2022 #84
I didn't write the paragraph in the Natl Holocaust Museum article. Budi Feb 2022 #88
No, you didn't write it kcr Feb 2022 #89
Yes. THE ARTICLE AT THE LINK WAS AN INTERESTING READ. Budi Feb 2022 #94
Right kcr Feb 2022 #95
I didn't misinterpret it. I asked for it to be explained since it was a point I had not come across Budi Feb 2022 #96
Where in your post did you ask? kcr Feb 2022 #97
And THAT is the misinterpretation of those who ran with the pile on, Budi Feb 2022 #98
Yeah, didn't think you'd answer that kcr Feb 2022 #102
You took one line about "racial traits" and wrote, several times, as if that was "race" muriel_volestrangler Feb 2022 #91
You are quite wrong . Along with the one calling me a "holocaust denier". Budi Feb 2022 #93
I didn't say you agreed with it; I said you had changed "racial traits" in it into "race" muriel_volestrangler Feb 2022 #104
So... The next day and you are still 'just asking questions' Ohio Joe Feb 2022 #99
No. My question was answered by some who actually bothered to take the time. Budi Feb 2022 #100
huh? Didn't realize the Nuremberg laws were in denial.. msfiddlestix Feb 2022 #79
How does one inherit religion? Happy Hoosier Feb 2022 #83
Thanks That is exactly why I posted the paragraph here. Budi Feb 2022 #92

Meowmee

(5,164 posts)
1. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/victims-of-the-nazi-era-nazi-racial-ideology
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 02:04 AM
Feb 2022

The Nazis defined Jews as a “race.” Regarding the Jewish religion as irrelevant, the Nazis attributed a wide variety of negative stereotypes about Jews and “Jewish” behavior to an unchanging biologically determined heritage that drove the “Jewish race,” like other races, to struggle to survive by expansion at the expense of other races.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
4. Then explain this as they recorded who was Jewish as in The Nuremberg Laws
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 02:10 AM
Feb 2022

Who was Jewish according to the Nuremberg Laws?
According to the Nuremberg Laws, a person with three or four Jewish grandparents was a Jew. A grandparent was considered Jewish if they belonged to the Jewish religious community. Thus, the Nazis defined Jews by their religion (Judaism), and not by the supposed racial traits that Nazism attributed to Jews.

From The Holocaust Encyclopedia
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-nuremberg-race-laws

Meowmee

(5,164 posts)
6. Do some more reading, you are wrong
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 02:12 AM
Feb 2022

Converting to christianity didn't help jews being burned at the stake in medieval times either.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
12. The question is in the paragraph I posted.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 02:49 AM
Feb 2022

The writiing in the paragraph is what stood out.

I'm not arguing it. I'm just asking.
I would however like to know then, why the paragraph referred to lineage as proof of being Jewish, also states the grandparents must be Religious (Judism)
It was Religion, & not Race.

So do we just ignore that statement ?

So which is it?
Race or Religion?





Meowmee

(5,164 posts)
17. Re Read the part I linked, it is from the same site, I am not familiar with the site but it
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 03:09 AM
Feb 2022

Contradicts Itself. Read the parts Ms. T mentioned. You are promoting it on in some level as throughly interesting etc. or whatever you said.

Lineage and being blood related to the “inferior jewish race”, inferior to all other races, was what counted, according to H, there was no way to over come this according to H. If you read anything about the history of antisemitism you will learn that jewish people who renounced their religion did not escape persecution, violence and murder etc. and were still considered to be jewish.

unblock

(52,195 posts)
21. Sounds like you're trying to impose a Christian understanding of religion on Judaism
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 03:20 AM
Feb 2022

Christianity is a religion of faith. Belief, and belief alone, define membership. Therefore there is a sharp separation between the concept of the Christian religion and the things we consider race. Being black or white has nothing to do with being Christian or not.

Judaism is a historically tribal religion. The tribes lived together, and apart from others at times, and membership in the religion was based on membership of the mother.

Judaism *has* stories of mysticism and mythology, but belief in them is not a determinant of membership in the religion. So it is a religion, but it has a tribal or inherited aspect, making it an ethnicity.


Jump to naziism, where they had a sick worldview drenched in racial divides, thinking of themselves as a superior aryan race and Jews as an inferior race. Massive amounts of nazi propaganda spoke of race and smeared "the Jewish race".

But when they needed to encode it into law, they lacked a workable legal definition. Looking to previous generations was easy enough up to a point, but at some point they needed to lean on religious records or physical characteristics. For various reasons, they went with the religious records.

That in no way meant they weren't racists and treating Jews as a race. All it means is that they looked to Jewish membership at a point in ancestry.

Which means they treated the Jewish religion as a race, rather than perhaps treating the people with certain nose characteristics as a race.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
23. Well thanks. Appreciate your reply.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 03:33 AM
Feb 2022

This explains what was at the center of it all, then.
But because they stated they relied on "Religious records, "I see why some may argue that it was religion & not race.
When in reality it is more about the fuckery of how Nazis did business & justified their deeds.


"but at some point they needed to lean on religious records or physical characteristics. For various reasons, they went with the religious records."

Demsrule86

(68,543 posts)
75. It was not based on religious but race...the final solution was aimed at stamping out the Jewish
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:00 PM
Feb 2022

race. Many Jews in Germany were assimilated and did not practice their religion...how do I know this? My great grand-mother was half Jewish. She and her husband emigrated first to Wisconsin and then to Illinois. Every single member of her family left in Germany was murdered by the Nazis -one way or another. None of them practiced the Jewish faith. This post promotes a lie.

Celerity

(43,299 posts)
36. A man having his nose measured during Aryan race determination tests under Nazi Germany's Nuremberg
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 04:36 AM
Feb 2022
Laws that was applied to determine whether a person was considered a 'Jew'

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-man-having-his-nose-measured-during-aryan-race-determination-tests-90833169.html




Nazi Racialization of the Jews

https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2015/05/08/nazi-racialization-of-the-jews/


An instrument for measuring facial features:



Instruments for measuring skin, eye, and hair color:



mitch96

(13,890 posts)
105. Ahhh eugenics
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 01:52 PM
Feb 2022

From the Oxford dictionary:
the study of how to arrange reproduction within a human population to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable. Developed largely by Sir Francis Galton as a method of improving the human race, eugenics was increasingly discredited as unscientific and racially biased during the 20th century, especially after the adoption of its doctrines by the Nazis in order to justify their treatment of Jews, disabled people, and other minority groups.

m

Meowmee

(5,164 posts)
34. Race as defined by H and others
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 04:20 AM
Feb 2022

SEPTEMBER 15, 1935
The German parliament (Reichstag) passes the Nuremberg Race Laws.

The Nuremberg Race Laws consisted of two pieces of legislation: the Reich Citizenship Law and the Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor. A special session of the Nazi-controlled Reichstag passed both laws at the Party’s rally in Nuremberg, Germany. These laws institutionalized many of the racial theories underpinning Nazi ideology and provided the legal framework for the systematic persecution of Jews in Germany. The Nuremberg Race Laws did not identify a “Jew” as someone with particular religious convictions but instead as someone with three or four Jewish grandparents. Many Germans who had not practiced Judaism or who had not done so for many years found themselves still subject to legal persecution under these laws. Even people with Jewish grandparents who had converted to Christianity could be defined as Jews.

https://www.ushmm.org/learn/timeline-of-events/1933-1938/nuremberg-race-laws





Nürnberg Laws, two race-based measures depriving Jews of rights, designed by Adolf Hitler and approved by the Nazi Party at a convention in Nürnberg on September 15, 1935. One, the Reichsbürgergesetz (German: “Law of the Reich Citizen”), deprived Jews of German citizenship, designating them “subjects of the state.” The other, the Gesetz zum Schutze des Deutschen Blutes und der Deutschen Ehre (“Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honour”), usually called simply the Blutschutzgesetz (“Blood Protection Law”), forbade marriage or sexual relations between Jews and “citizens of German or kindred blood.” These measures were among the first of the racist Nazi laws that culminated in the Holocaust.



https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nurnberg-Laws


“Violence was a crucial tool of the Nazi government, but its leaders were also eager to show that they were acting within the framework of the law. As they worked to consolidate power and reshape Germany according to their racial ideals, Nazi leaders passed a number of new laws that redefined citizenship and laid the groundwork for a “racial state.”

On September 15, 1935, at a party rally in Nuremberg, the Nazis announced two new laws that changed who could be a German citizen. The Reich Citizenship Law required that all citizens have German “blood.” As a result, Jews and others lost their rights to citizenship, which not only stripped them of the right to vote but also made them stateless. This meant that they could not get a valid passport for travel between countries or acquire a visa to leave Germany.

The second law was called the Law for the Protection of German Blood and Honor, which stated the following:..”



https://www.facinghistory.org/holocaust-and-human-behavior/chapter-6/nuremberg-laws

krawhitham

(4,643 posts)
24. letter of the law VS what happened in the real world
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 03:40 AM
Feb 2022

The law may have stated "Thus, the Nazis defined Jews by their religion (Judaism), and not by the supposed racial traits that Nazism attributed to Jews."

But in practice they rounded up anyone they thought looked "Jewish", remember the Nazis were also running a PR campaign

Celerity

(43,299 posts)
52. here are the two main Nuremberg laws, translated
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 06:59 AM
Feb 2022
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws

Over the coming years, an additional 13 supplementary laws were promulgated that further marginalised the Jewish community in Germany.


Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honour

Moved by the understanding that purity of German blood is the essential condition for the continued existence of the German people, and inspired by the inflexible determination to ensure the existence of the German nation for all time, the Reichstag has unanimously adopted the following law, which is promulgated herewith:

Article 1

Marriages between Jews and citizens of German or related blood are forbidden. Marriages nevertheless concluded are invalid, even if concluded abroad to circumvent this law.

Annulment proceedings can be initiated only by the state prosecutor.

Article 2

Extramarital relations between Jews and citizens of German or related blood are forbidden.

Article 3

Jews may not employ in their households female citizens of German or related blood who are under 45 years old.

Article 4

Jews are forbidden to fly the Reich or national flag or display Reich colours.

They are, on the other hand, permitted to display the Jewish colours. The exercise of this right is protected by the state.

Article 5

Any person who violates the prohibition under Article 1 will be punished with prison with hard labour [Zuchthaus].

A male who violates the prohibition under Article 2 will be punished with prison [Gefängnis] or prison with hard labour.

Any person violating the provisions under Articles 3 or 4 will be punished with prison with hard labour for up to one year and a fine, or with one or the other of these penalties.

Article 6

The Reich Minister of the Interior, in co-ordination with the Deputy of the Führer and the Reich Minister of Justice, will issue the legal and administrative regulations required to implement and complete this law.

Article 7

The law takes effect on the day following promulgation, except for Article 3, which goes into force on 1 January 1936.







Reich Citizenship Law

The Reichstag has unanimously enacted the following law, which is promulgated herewith:

Article 1

A subject of the state is a person who enjoys the protection of the German Reich and who in consequence has specific obligations toward it.

The status of subject of the state is acquired in accordance with the provisions of the Reich and the Reich Citizenship Law.

Article 2

A Reich citizen is a subject of the state who is of German or related blood, and proves by his conduct that he is willing and fit to faithfully serve the German people and Reich.

Reich citizenship is acquired through the granting of a Reich citizenship certificate.

The Reich citizen is the sole bearer of full political rights in accordance with the law.

Article 3

The Reich Minister of the Interior, in co-ordination with the Deputy of the Führer, will issue the legal and administrative orders required to implement and complete this law.






Classifications under the laws

1935




Special cases with first-degree Mischlinge




Socal31

(2,484 posts)
42. Yes, but:
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 05:35 AM
Feb 2022

Jonathan Greenblatt, ADL CEO before his "whoops we got her suspended" tour:

"The Holocaust was about the Nazis' systemic annihilation of the Jewish people - who they deemed to be an inferior race. They dehumanized them and used their racist propaganda to justify slaughtering six million Jews. "Holocaust distortion is dangerous."

Stopantisemitism.org:

"Six million of us were gassed, starved, and massacred because we were deemed an inferior race by the Nazis.

"How dare you minimise (sic) our trauma and suffering!"


https://news.sky.com/story/whoopi-goldberg-apologises-for-devastating-and-dangerous-comments-about-holocaust-12530007

muriel_volestrangler

(101,301 posts)
62. Your own phrase: 'Jonathan Greenblatt, ADL CEO before his "whoops we got her suspended" tour'
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 09:31 AM
Feb 2022

The ADL is a Jewish organization - while it does call out other bigotry, its prime purpose is to oppose anti-semitism. So when you put it as the ADL getting her suspended, you are saying Jews got her suspended.

Behind the Aegis

(53,949 posts)
110. In another thread, on the exact same topic, he wrote almost the same thing...almost...
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 03:32 PM
Feb 2022
Mr. Greenblatt, along with some European press, and at least one other NGO, are the reason she was suspended, from what I can see. After her initial comments:


Can you spot the difference?

Now he is trying to gaslight me and pretend I didn't read what I read. Thanks for your comment.

Ms. Toad

(34,060 posts)
2. Did you completely miss the first 3 paragraphs?
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 02:08 AM
Feb 2022
The Nazis enacted the Nuremberg Laws, because they wanted to put their ideas about race into law. They believed in the false theory that the world is divided into distinct races that are not equally strong and valuable. The Nazis considered Germans to be members of the supposedly superior “Aryan” race. They saw the so-called Aryan German race as the strongest, and most valuable race of all.

According to the Nazis, Jews were not Aryans. They thought Jews belonged to a separate race that was inferior to all other races. The Nazis believed that the presence of Jews in Germany threatened the German people. They believed they had to separate Jews from other Germans to protect and strengthen Germany. The Nuremberg Laws were an important step towards achieving this goal.

What was the Reich Citizenship Law?
The Nazi Party had always promised that, if they came to power, only racially pure Germans would be allowed to hold German citizenship. The Reich Citizenship Law made this a reality. This law defined a citizen as a person who is “of German or related blood.” This meant that Jews, defined as a separate race, could not be full citizens of Germany. They had no political rights.
 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
37. Did you not read the particular paragraph I found questionable enough to Post here to discuss?
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 04:39 AM
Feb 2022

The part that said, if 3 or 4 grandparents practiced religion the lineage would also be Jewish?
The element of 'religion, not race was stated.
That is what I questioned.

Yes, that was my point of question.
Thanks to others who actually provided an answer without copying & pasting the entire article which, yes, I already read.

Ms. Toad

(34,060 posts)
73. So you believe one reference, in a single sentence,
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 11:44 AM
Feb 2022

Last edited Thu Feb 3, 2022, 02:31 PM - Edit history (1)

outweighs the entire rest of the article wich makes it very clear that the Nazi's believe the Jews were a race?

You do recogize (1) fractioning ancestors is a standard way of classifying race, right? (2) Further, as a religion, Judaism is historiacal matrilineal - not fractional. "Judaism holds that anyone with a Jewish mother also has irrevocable Jewish status; that even were such a Jew to convert to another religion, that person would still be considered Jewish by Jewish Law.'

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
77. I never said I believed anything. Where did I say that?
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:10 PM
Feb 2022

I said that in reading thru the article, which was fascinating btw , I found this paragraph & it made me pause.
Not because I believe it over the rest, nor because I am somehow agreeing with Something Whoopi fking Goldberg said, as I've been accused of here also, as well as being now...wait for it...A Holocaust Denier! Of all things.

It is a paragraph that made me pause reading because it is probably a viewpoint I had never considrred until that moment. Nor heard before as it was stated.

So I brought it here to understand why the paragraph was written in that way.

It had nothing to do with anything other than that.
Which I repeated several times throughout this thread.
Which none but a few botherd to consider what I was asking before blasting off accusations & copying & pasting excerpts from the article I had already read, which contributed nothing to a discussion on the paragraph.
Which is the only thing I was asking about.

Accusations of being a Holocaust denier, & worse, piled on & misinterpreted instead of answering the only purpose for the post, as I repeatedly asked.

Anyone here who reads any of my posts should have known me better than to respond as hostile as they did.

I never once said I believed the statement in the paragraph.
I questioned its purpose.
That's it.

Y'all can apologize publically or privately for misinterpreting & jumping on the pile on.

Ms. Toad

(34,060 posts)
107. Either you believe it, your OP was tone deaf, or you're shit stirring -
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 02:25 PM
Feb 2022

given the recent discussions triggered by Whoopi's comments, and how clearly offensive it is to suggest that the Holocaust is not about race.

You created this OP in the midst of a national awareness of how offensive it is to suggest the Holocaust was not race-based. From an article which very clearly, as a whole, says the Nazis were treated Jews as a race, you chose to quote the one line which can be misinterpreted to suggest it was about religion - and - you also chose to omit the portions which clearly define Jews as a race. Not only that - but you don't say anything like, "Given that the rest of the article clearly defines Jews as a race, this line doesn't make sense - anyone have an explanation?"

As to "jumping on the pile on." Check my initial response and the timing. I was the second response. There were no responses when I started drafting my response. The only reason my post was second was because it took me longer to grab and format the relevant paragraphs you should have included - or at least referred to.

Frankly, given current awareness of the Holocaust and race, your post was offensive enough that I checked your post count thinking you were probably one of the many trolls who had wandered in recently. I fully expected to send you off to MIRT for banning. I was shocked to see that you weren't brand new here.

Don't hold your breath waiting for an apology from me - based on the responses that followed mine, I'm not the only one who found it - at a minimum - tone deaf.

I won't hold my breath waiting for an apology for accusing me of "piling on" when my response was the second one.

Celerity

(43,299 posts)
3. your own site contradicts this
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 02:09 AM
Feb 2022
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/victims-of-the-nazi-era-nazi-racial-ideology

The Nazis defined Jews as a “race.” Regarding the Jewish religion as irrelevant, the Nazis attributed a wide variety of negative stereotypes about Jews and “Jewish” behavior to an unchanging biologically determined heritage that drove the “Jewish race,” like other races, to struggle to survive by expansion at the expense of other races.



While it classified Jews as the priority “enemy,” the Nazi ideological concept of race targeted other groups for persecution, imprisonment, and annihilation. These groups included Roma (Gypsies), people with disabilities, Poles, Soviet prisoners of war, and Afro-Germans. The Nazis also identified political dissidents, Jehovah’s Witnesses, homosexuals, and so-called asocials as enemies and security risks either because they consciously opposed the Nazi regime or some aspect of their behavior did not fit Nazi perceptions of social norms. They sought to eliminate domestic non-conformists and so-called racial threats through a perpetual self-purge of German society.

The Nazis believed that superior races had not just the right but the obligation to subdue and even exterminate inferior ones. They believed that this struggle of races was consistent with the law of nature. The Nazis pursued a strategic vision of a dominant German race ruling subject peoples, especially the Slavs and the so-called Asiatics (by which they meant the peoples of Soviet Central Asia and the Muslim populations of the Caucasus region), whom they judged to be innately inferior. For purposes of propaganda, the Nazis often framed this strategic vision in terms of a crusade to save western civilization from these “eastern” or “Asiatic” barbarians and their Jewish leaders and organizers.



The Racially Defined Collective

For Hitler and other leaders of the Nazi movement, the ultimate value of a human being lay not in his or her individuality, but in his or her membership in a racially defined collective group. The ultimate purpose of a racial collective was to ensure its own survival. Most people would agree that humans have an individual instinct for survival, but Hitler went on to assume a collective instinct for survival centered on membership in a group, a people, or a race (using these terms interchangeably). For the Nazis, this collective instinct for survival always involved safeguarding the purity of the “race” and the struggle with competing “races” for territory.

snip

Response to Celerity (Reply #3)

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
14. That doesn't address the quoted paragraph from the Same Link. The one in my OP.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 02:58 AM
Feb 2022
This paragrapg was ALSO AT THE LINK.

Are we to ignore the archived parts we don't agree with?

What did they intend by this paragraph in the Nuremberg Laws?


Who was Jewish according to the Nuremberg Laws?
According to the Nuremberg Laws, a person with three or four Jewish grandparents was a Jew. A grandparent was considered Jewish if they belonged to the Jewish religious community. Thus, the Nazis defined Jews by their religion (Judaism), and not by the supposed racial traits that Nazism attributed to Jews.

From The Holocaust Encyclopedia
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-nuremberg-race-laws

Celerity

(43,299 posts)
32. They were not the Nuremberg Religious Laws, they were the Nuremberg RACE Laws
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 04:13 AM
Feb 2022

I have no clue why that one part erroneously says what it says, but you are delving straight into anti-Semitic tropes.

You have been definitively proved to be in error and should pull this OP.



https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/01/whoopi-goldberg/whoopi-goldberg-wrongly-claims-holocaust-was-not-a/






"Racism was central to Nazi ideology," the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum responded in a tweet as Goldberg’s statement garnered attention online. "Jews were not defined by religion, but by race. Nazi racist beliefs fueled genocide and mass murder."

The Auschwitz Memorial, meanwhile, tagged Goldberg in a tweet advertising its seven-chapter online course on the history of the Holocaust, in which the Nazis murdered some 6 million Jews.

Later that night, Goldberg posted an apology on Twitter that quoted from Jonathan Greenblatt, the CEO of the Anti-Defamation League, who had tweeted that the Holocaust "was about the Nazi’s systematic annihilation of the Jewish people — who they deemed to be an inferior race."




Nazi ideology viewed Jews as an inferior race

Racism toward Jews and other groups drove the Nazis’ ideology, policies, and mass murder of Jews in concentration camps and elsewhere, according to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum.

"Nazi antisemitism rested completely on the argument that they are not people like you Germans," said Peter Hayes, a professor emeritus of history and German at Northwestern University. "They are implacably and by inheritance different and hostile, and therefore they have to be ‘removed,’ one way or another."

Nazi theories of race held that Germans and other people of Indo-European descent belonged to a superior group called the "Aryan" race. The Nazi heirarchy of races positioned the Aryans at the top, Black people at the bottom and everyone else on a scale in between, Hayes said.

Jewish people were branded as the most dangerous threat to the Aryan race, Hayes said. They were considered conniving, hate-filled, parasitic, and capable of mobilizing the other races.

Nazi leader Adolf Hitler, in particular, saw Jewish people as "subhuman" entities who threatened all other races by spreading subversive ideas like liberalism and Marxism, and by mixing with other races through marriage and sexual relations, said Christopher Browning, a professor emeritus of history at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

"For Hitler, all history was a race struggle," Browning said.

Hitler described Jews as a race — not a religion — in "Mein Kampf," the autobiographical political manifesto that charted his ideology and his vision for the future of Germany. One key chapter comparing the races was titled "Nation and Race."

"Hitler was very explicit about this, and always said very clearly that being Jewish had nothing to do with religious affiliation or cultural background, but was entirely physical," Hett said.

The Nazis went to great lengths to try to prove through pseudoscience that Jewish people had such physical markers, even devoting an office of the government to such work, Hett said.

They also implemented the Nuremberg Race Laws, which provided the legal framework for the systematic persecution of Jews, according to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum.

unblock

(52,195 posts)
8. They never asked my mother her religion. Not that she could answer, as an infant.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 02:20 AM
Feb 2022

But she was treated as Jewish because her grandparents were Jewish. Which fits completely into the concept of race.

When it came to determining if the grandparents were Jewish, the nazis relied on religious records and such.

What they are saying in the part you pulled as title is that ultimately, it was based on the grandparents' religion and not on the various stereotyped traits the nazis attributed to Jews, such as nose shape.

There were a number of reason for this, such as availability of records and it being a pretty "objective" criteria.

This practical way they encoded it into law is not in any material way in conflict with the idea that they were defining a race and treating it as such.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
11. Then it was based on the grandparents religion.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 02:40 AM
Feb 2022

And to be declared Jewish, one needed 3 or 4 grandparents. Who wrre declared Jewish by their religion, not racial traits.

THIS is the paragraph that stands out in what should have been a clear understanding of Race or Religion.

Do you understand why I'm pointing out this paragraph ?

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
16. Apparantly Ignoring paragraphs we disagree with then, is ok?
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 03:02 AM
Feb 2022

This paragraph Was Also in the Nuremberg Laws.

So we should ignore it?
Apparantly 🙄

harumph

(1,898 posts)
56. If the Nazis couldn't find incriminating records
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 08:37 AM
Feb 2022

they just would make up shit to imprison and murder the people they didn't like.
They hated the Jews (as a race - as a tribe - as groups of families with shared
kindship) and were dead set on getting rid of them. The laws cited were written to give cover to
the overriding agenda of murder.

uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
68. This is it, I lived in Germany and didn't understand HTF they knew who was who. They literally
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 10:15 AM
Feb 2022

... made shit up as they went along if they couldn't define someone as Jewish by records.

They were assholes.

Demsrule86

(68,543 posts)
76. They murdered people with any Jewish blood as it was about race and not religion. I have no
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:02 PM
Feb 2022

idea why you would even post this as it is patently false.

harumph

(1,898 posts)
55. Yes. I don't know why it's so difficult
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 08:28 AM
Feb 2022

for people to understand that they were using religious past as a proxy for race identification
SIMPLY because there were available records. Hence a Jew pretending to be a Christian
could be "found out" by the Nazis resorting to the records. This cherry picking bothers me.

Ohio Joe

(21,748 posts)
15. Cherry picking to show the master race was not racist...
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 03:00 AM
Feb 2022

Holy shit... Ummm... Yeah, just holy shit.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
19. I didn't write the Nuremberg Laws ffs. Why did they include this statement in the Laws?
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 03:10 AM
Feb 2022

That's my question.

Why did they include this?

Who was Jewish according to the Nuremberg Laws?
According to the Nuremberg Laws, a person with three or four Jewish grandparents was a Jew. A grandparent was considered Jewish if they belonged to the Jewish religious community. Thus, the Nazis defined Jews by their religion (Judaism), and not by the supposed racial traits that Nazism attributed to Jews.

From The Holocaust Encyclopedia
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-nuremberg-race-laws

I didn't say I agreed with it. It stood out as a quedtion i thought someonw here w9uld also motice.

Why'd they write the paragragh in the Nuremberg Laws defining lineage baded on the religion of the grandparents.

No one has an explanation?



uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
43. WOW !!! I'm reading what you're reading too and don't understand German logic on the issue. It ...
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 06:19 AM
Feb 2022

... sounds like they were making shit up as they went along looking at how MAGA acts today.

The NAZIs weren't the brightest bulbs

dwayneb

(768 posts)
58. Nazis may not have been bright but they were efficient
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 08:54 AM
Feb 2022

It's easy to say that they were not very bright, but the reality is that they nearly captured all of Europe, and if left unchecked would have eventually put America under the boot as well. It was only Hitler's drug addiction and mental instability that led to the poor decisions that eventually led to their downfall.

We foolishly underestimated the Nazis just as many underestimate the danger that the MAGA/Trumpists present to us.

Emrys

(7,230 posts)
18. Jewish UK comedian and author David Baddiel totally disagrees
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 03:10 AM
Feb 2022

Here he is on UK TV explaining exactly why:




Jonny Geller
@JonnyGeller
This is as good as it gets in describing what antisemitism is in 2 minutes by @Baddiel

[Twitter video]


Here's his recently published book, Jews Don’t Count: https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/jews-dont-count-david-baddiel
 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
20. I asked why the Nuremberg Laws included this Paragraphh.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 03:19 AM
Feb 2022

I am Jewish.

I'd like to know what the Paragraph was saying.
That it was RELIGION?

No one here can answer that point.
Snark, insults, jokes, ..but no answer, Why. What was it they meant by that statement of religion of the grandparent determining Jewish lineage.

Not one of you can answer that?

Dont bring your antisemitism jokes to me.
Doesn't surprise me then, that not one here, can answer what was intended by the paragraph I posted from the Nuremberg Laws.






 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
25. I replied to your post above. Thanks. Its really all I asked about.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 03:42 AM
Feb 2022

I didn't write the Nuremberg Laws. It was a paragraph that stood out. So I asked.

The accusations & jokes, & bs posts I received for questioning were out of line.

Thanks for you above reply.



unblock

(52,195 posts)
28. Several people here took offense. Rather than dismiss them as out of line,
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 03:51 AM
Feb 2022

I think you should take a moment to ponder if maybe, even if unintentionally, you stepped in it this time.

You asked about a touchy subject and didn't display any real sensitivity as to how it might be read.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
33. No. The insensitivity was in the failure to read my 1st post asking why the Nurenberg Laws ...
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 04:17 AM
Feb 2022

..would include the statement. The 1st time I explained it. And the second & third & so on.

I am owed an apology by a few here.

I quoted a paragraph that stood out.
I never said I agreed with it.
The paragraph exists whether we agree or not.

I appreciate your post explaining it further.
That discussion is all I was after.
I'm not stupid, nor antisemetic as someone suggested. That would make me an antisemetic Jewish person?
Ya. THAT insult.

Shame on them.

Several people who posted here also take offense at every other subject I address so their replies were typical pile on bs.
Its time I ignore them.





40. As a non-Jewish outsider, seems thus:
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 05:18 AM
Feb 2022

You got called out for being wrong.

You doubled down on being wrong.

You're now saying "I'm the poor oppressed victim" while rationalizing the fuckin' Holocaust


Just say what you mean: Hitler didn't go far enough re. "The Jewish Problem" and you're disappointed. The fact that you're allowed to post here is a goddamn disgrace.

"But but but I'm Jewish!" Everyone's what they say they are on the Internet.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
41. You're wrong. About me, my intent & my RACE & my belief.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 05:34 AM
Feb 2022

I pointed out a paragraph that stood out as I read the article at my link.

So I'm really NOT Jewish by your assumptions?
Wow. I'll just erase that from my geneology then. K?
Keep your antisemitism to yourself.
You've made it clear who you are.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
61. This post "seems" to me to be the most shockingly offensive attack
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 09:21 AM
Feb 2022

on a fellow DUer I've ever seen here -- to suggest a poster is disappointed that the Final Solution didn't go far enough.

Btw, Hellhound, my husband's Jewish. Yes, I say so!

(Sorry this happened, Budi. You so don't deserve anything like this. None of us do.)

George II

(67,782 posts)
72. "The fact that you're allowed to post here is a goddamn disgrace." Wha'? First....
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 10:59 AM
Feb 2022

....none of what you said is true about those posts or what was said. Second, who are you to say who should be allowed to post here?

uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
44. +1, "...I am owed an apology by a few here..." I agree. I lived in Germany and still never ...
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 06:21 AM
Feb 2022

... understood their Nazi bullshit down to the culture, it sounds COMPLETELY maga like in the illogic of it all.

Just people wanting to be angry at some one

The virtrul here looks to be pile on, keep calling it out so people don't group think ... which hell, that's what the magas and nazis did in droves.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
45. The parallels of Nazi bs to MAGA bs are indistinguishable
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 06:26 AM
Feb 2022

From messaging to bullshit justifying their hate.

uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
47. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾 and scary as HELL as to how we've been frog boiled to accept their lingo like
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 06:31 AM
Feb 2022

... "cancel culture" or whatever they've morphed shit into these days.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
50. we've been frog boiled to accept their lingo like ... "cancel culture"
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 06:55 AM
Feb 2022

They just threw it out to media & sat back & laughed as the TV posers, all straight faced pretended to explain what it meant & just left it dangling as they quickly moved to the next headline.
And the public all acted just like the TV spokemodels & no one ever did know what it really meant nor how to apply the words 'cancel culture' to their own daily lives.

Frog boiled is precise.

Emrys

(7,230 posts)
60. I took an opportunity to air what one Jew has said and written about the topic.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 09:20 AM
Feb 2022

I did that out of respect because I think it's an interesting and valuable perspective that I gained from understanding. I don't know whether you even watched it.

I didn't indulge in any snark, didn't insult anyone, and I certainly didn't make a joke, and definitely not an "antisemitism joke", whateverthehell that is, and I strongly resent the insinuation that I did.

Xolodno

(6,390 posts)
26. Jewish people who converted could still be forced to wear the star...and sent to the chambers...
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 03:43 AM
Feb 2022

...executed on site etc.

It was also a bit of a mess as to who was Jewish and not. Someone converts and marries a Catholic or Protestant, then they are no longer Jewish in some place...in other places, it didn't damn well matter. And historically, this has been the case in various expulsions in progroms, refusal to accept the conversion (Spanish Inquisition), etc.

And you can't use Semite ancestry either, as that includes Palestinians and Arabs. And what about those or Khazar ancestry?

But under the Nazi's, they were still all inferior races/people just like the Slav's, mentally ill, etc. But since the Nazi's weren't exactly uniform on who was Jewish, inferior, etc. This allowed the trials to apply a standard be it if you were actually Jewish or a convert with a German, Polish, etc. husband, child of such a marriage, etc. that was swept up.

The order was to kill Jews and other undesirables. That got interpreted and implemented differently by different areas.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
29. Your statement just explained the unspoken mystery of my own ancestry
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 04:01 AM
Feb 2022

My own piecing together of geneology told me that somewhere along the line there was a missing piece. The piece that either my parents or grandparents just never thought it necessary to record or they just never knew of.
Perhaps it never mattered, until WW2.



But since the Nazi's weren't exactly uniform on who was Jewish, inferior, etc. This allowed the trials to apply a standard be it if you were actually Jewish or a convert with a German, Polish, etc. husband, child of such a marriage, etc. that was swept up.

uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
46. +1, wrote in a post before I read yours that like MAGA and "cancel culture" the dumb assed NAZIs ...
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 06:28 AM
Feb 2022

... didn't clearly define "Jewish" and it sounds like they were making it up as they went along.

Behind the Aegis

(53,949 posts)
30. Also from your link
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 04:03 AM
Feb 2022
What was the Reich Citizenship Law?
The Nazi Party had always promised that, if they came to power, only racially pure Germans would be allowed to hold German citizenship. The Reich Citizenship Law made this a reality. This law defined a citizen as a person who is “of German or related blood.” This meant that Jews, defined as a separate race, could not be full citizens of Germany. They had no political rights.
 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
35. Right. So when they say Race, are they also exchanging the words race & Judaism
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 04:30 AM
Feb 2022

Is this where the dual meaning comes from?

Though I seperate race & religion in reading the above paragraph, to the Nazis the 2 words simply become interchangeable.

I wanted to know why they referred to 'grandparents religion' as defining who was Jewish.
It was explained upthread finally.
In the end it didn't matter because the Nazis hated both.

Bad Thoughts

(2,522 posts)
38. The passage describes the test they used to root out Jews
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 05:05 AM
Feb 2022

The Nazi regime looked at the religion section of birth certificates and travel passports to see if an individual's grandparents and parents had been identified as Jewish. Because of the restrictions on Jewish life into the late 19th century, it was likely that the only way one could be Jewish was by birth, thus establishing a genetic descent.

What you have parsed, then, is just the test. In Nazi rhetoric, as well as in the thought of many other Europeans, Jews were a race of Asiatic/Middle Eastern origin. Many were indeed darker, especially if they came from farther east. Indeed, they were seen as a mongrel race who introduced impure elements into the nation. Speeches and posters are filled with the word "Rasse."

I'm the end, race is a construct that is not always based on the color of the skin. It has been founded on many different markers, real and imagined. People who appear to be closely related to one another, like Hutus to the Tutsi, could sew each other as different races, which drove the Rwandan Genocide. Jews can be the victims of racism in spite of the fact that they resist identifying themselves as a unique race.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
39. Correct. I didn't write the paragraph.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 05:15 AM
Feb 2022

Appreciate your comparisons throughout history. Its an interesting point of discussion, & one we have to consider as the evolution & movement of human beings began to merge & boundry lines were redrawn over the course of time.


 

Omen78

(81 posts)
48. Could the paragraph
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 06:36 AM
Feb 2022

In question be dealing with those that converted to Judaism. It seems to me that going back to the Grandparent practicing Judaism as being a checkmark would indicate the family had accepted its Jewishness. Could be wrong, but it seems like a logical approach to dealing with those not of the bloodline, but known to be Jewish.

Edit - My apologies. I was reading from my phone. I overlooked that conversion had already been discussed.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
57. Oh, they were OBSESSED with race, their master race, everyone else's.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 08:47 AM
Feb 2022

In their sick depravity they defined most Europeans as members of inferior races, who should be enslaved to serve the master race. This so-called "race" ruled, and religion, culture and geographic location helped identify the "races" to them.

In the beginning Hitler wanted to kill everyone with Jewish blood, whether he had a plan or not. There is documentary evidence that Hitler did discuss this very early with others who eventually, as they took over surrounding nations, went on to carry out an unbelievably ambitious final solution for all of Europe.

As for who was Jewish, in the beginning the Nuremburg laws stated what they stated. Jewish religion and culture were criteria and used to manufacturer stories about their victimization of non-Jews, which enabled them to ship whole neighborhoods off to ghettoes and concentration camps. But Jewish blood was defining, thus the initial exceptions for people with only one Jewish grandparent.

Over time as the master race confiscated the homes, businesses and other wealth of Jews -- and as their power grew -- they kept expanding the definition of who was Jewish, before the end they were confiscating everything that allowed them to get their hands on, and toward the end they emptying out the concentration camps and shipping them and everyone else they could round up off to the death camps to kill as many as they could before the allies stopped them.

Sympthsical

(9,071 posts)
59. This is starting to feel like a form of Holocaust Denial
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 09:03 AM
Feb 2022

A lesser form, but still a denial that the Jews endured what they did for the reasons they did.

And I'm not sure what to make of the fact that this is appearing and allowed on DU to the extent it already has, and finally culminating in this beauty of a thread steeped in historical ignorance and . . . well, denial.

It's shameful it got posted, it's shameful it's even being discussed seriously.

It's shameful it's being allowed.

All because a talk show host said something historically ignorant and dumb, and a paid vacation is too much punishment to bear.

Is a talk show host worth it? Because I think this stuff is the worst I've ever seen here.

This is really something. I somehow typed an entire post and yet remain completely lost for words here.

Denying aspects of the Holocaust. On DU.

That's a choice, I will give it that.

Sympthsical

(9,071 posts)
66. It's a strong phrase, so I wanted to be careful in deploying it
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 09:53 AM
Feb 2022

But nope. After witnessing this thread, I'm putting it out there.

Denying why Jews were subject to genocide is what people are engaged in now.

For a talk show host. That's what gets me.

bullwinkle428

(20,629 posts)
64. I'm sorry, this seems like a particularly bizarre hill to die on, in an apparent
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 09:48 AM
Feb 2022

effort to defend some really poorly thought-out comments on the part of Whoopi.

uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
67. The OP is Jewish and I lived in Germany and still didn't understand their stupid assed logic when
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 10:09 AM
Feb 2022

... it came to who were Jewish outside of records.

A poster answered OP with facts not derision and we both learned seeing we didn't know.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
70. Where'd it say I was defending Whoopi, again?
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 10:55 AM
Feb 2022

The paragraph is from the National Holocaust Museum archives.

Maybe tell your concerns to them.
Or just go read it yourself.


bullwinkle428

(20,629 posts)
101. As a child raised in a Jewish home, we attended religious education
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 01:33 PM
Feb 2022

classes through the age of 16, and one of the biggest themes that was emphasized when the Holocaust was discussed, was the idea that we were marginalized by being identified as an "inferior race". This made it much easier for the rest of German society to dehumanize us.

I'm just trying to share my own experience, and wish this could be part of the general education cirriculum.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
103. I absolutely agree that it should be part of a school cirriculum
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 01:50 PM
Feb 2022

It would open discussions & eliminate a lot of the propaganda that has been told for generations.

The truth is all archived for the education system to use.
There has to be a breaking away of the stigma.
But we need our legislators to recognize rather than feed this division. And there are those who certainly do.

To see what has rapidly occurred with antisemetism alone, since 2016, the slipping away of those possibilities of bringing it to an open education curriculum, as you suggest, is why we need it even more now.

And more so, why this education should have been made availible all along.

Thanks for your post.

peggysue2

(10,828 posts)
87. Were Whoopi's comments poorly thought out?
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:28 PM
Feb 2022

Yes. I think she's admitted that with her subsequent appearance on Colbert. IMO, she was honest, open when she said that her comments reflected her own perspective as a black woman where race is something you can see.

Is that a narrow, poorly thought out perspective? Yes, particularly when you're talking about the Nazis who were obsessed with race, racial theories and their own self-labeled Master Race status. Jews were reduced to cockroach status, inferior in all ways, the perennial scapegoat.

She didn't think it through, certainly not from a historical perspective. What she did do is open a line of conversation and discussion. Ultimately, that's a good thing.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
106. That is true about bringiing the conversation to the front.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 01:56 PM
Feb 2022

The subject has always been there to discuss. The way to rip away the 'proper accepted protocals' of speaking about it is indeed to force it into conversations as Whoopi certainly has done.



Mr. Scorpio

(73,630 posts)
65. Well, actually, I'm much more interested in knowing how Jews define themselves
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 09:51 AM
Feb 2022

Whether it be as either a religious and/or racial identity.

Seriously, fuck the Nazis.

rgbecker

(4,826 posts)
69. Brava for Whoopi for getting this topic out and on people's "let's discuss" list.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 10:24 AM
Feb 2022

I've learned more about this now age old issue in the last two days than the rest of my 74 years.

Demsrule86

(68,543 posts)
74. That is total bullshit. If that were the case, they would not have murdered those with Jewish
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 11:54 AM
Feb 2022

backgrounds who no longer lived a religious Jews...you should take this post down IMHO. Hitler talked about "Jewish" blood and wanted them exterminated...it was not based on religion. I would not read an article that in my view misrepresent who and what the Nazis were.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
85. I didn't post it because I agree nor approve . Never ever said that did I.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:23 PM
Feb 2022

in reading thru the article, which was fascinating btw , I found this paragraph & it made me pause.
Not because I believe it over the rest, nor because I am somehow agreeing with Something Whoopi fking Goldberg said, as I've been accused of here also, as well as being now...wait for it...A Holocaust Denier! Of all things.

It is a paragraph that made me pause reading because it is probably a viewpoint I had never considrred until that moment. Nor heard before as it was stated.

So I brought it here to understand why the paragraph was written in that way.

It had nothing to do with anything other than that.
Which I repeated several times throughout this thread.
Which none but a few botherd to consider what I was asking before blasting off accusations & copying & pasting excerpts from the article I had already read, which contributed nothing to a discussion on the paragraph.
Which is the only thing I was asking about.

Accusations of being a Holocaust denier, & worse, piled on & misinterpreted instead of answering the only purpose for the post, as I repeatedly asked.

Anyone here who reads any of my posts should have known me better than to respond as hostile as they did.

I never once said I believed the statement in the paragraph.
I questioned its purpose.
That's it.

Y'all can apologize publically or privately for misinterpreting & jumping on the pile on.

Demsrule86

(68,543 posts)
90. I find an excuse for murderers which can be used today for would racist murderers...
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:37 PM
Feb 2022

I do understand where you are coming from, however.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
80. Tell ya what. I'll just copy & paste the response I gave to the last one.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:19 PM
Feb 2022

in reading thru the article, which was fascinating btw , I found this paragraph & it made me pause.
Not because I believe it over the rest, nor because I am somehow agreeing with Something Whoopi fking Goldberg said, as I've been accused of here also, as well as being now...wait for it...A Holocaust Denier! Of all things.

It is a paragraph that made me pause reading because it is probably a viewpoint I had never considrred until that moment. Nor heard before as it was stated.

So I brought it here to understand why the paragraph was written in that way.

It had nothing to do with anything other than that.
Which I repeated several times throughout this thread.
Which none but a few botherd to consider what I was asking before blasting off accusations & copying & pasting excerpts from the article I had already read, which contributed nothing to a discussion on the paragraph.
Which is the only thing I was asking about.

Accusations of being a Holocaust denier, & worse, piled on & misinterpreted instead of answering the only purpose for the post, as I repeatedly asked.

Anyone here who reads any of my posts should have known me better than to respond as hostile as they did.

I never once said I believed the statement in the paragraph.
I questioned its purpose.
That's it.

Y'all can apologize publically or privately for misinterpreting & jumping on the pile on.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
84. You are the one who needs to apologize
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:21 PM
Feb 2022

I'd rather cut and paste all the responses to you outlining how wrong you are while you continue to attempt to defend yourself.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
88. I didn't write the paragraph in the Natl Holocaust Museum article.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:28 PM
Feb 2022

It stopped me when I read it & THAT is why I brought it here asking to have it explained .

The accusations based on the misinterpretation of my purpose in posting are why apologies to me are in order.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
89. No, you didn't write it
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:29 PM
Feb 2022

You merely copied and pasted it while declaring it a "terrific, detailed & educational read on The Nuremberg Laws"

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
94. Yes. THE ARTICLE AT THE LINK WAS AN INTERESTING READ.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:58 PM
Feb 2022

Then I asked to have the one paragraph explained because, as I said, it made me pause at that point.

You maybe should read the srticle at the Holocaust Museum Encyclopedia link.
It is fascinating in it's detail.


kcr

(15,315 posts)
95. Right
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 01:03 PM
Feb 2022

So, why quote a section of it out of context and then misinterpret it the way you did? If you'd only posted a link and said, "This is interesting!" there would be no problem. You're trying to pull the "I'm only asking questions" defense, after the fact, instead of acknowledging you made a mistake in your interpretation. Not a good look.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
96. I didn't misinterpret it. I asked for it to be explained since it was a point I had not come across
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 01:14 PM
Feb 2022

The misinterpretation came from those who failed to read what I repeatedly was asking.

And gratefully that some actually took the time to discuss it.
Others didn't bother & joined the misinterpretation pile on.
Some were intentional.

I'll defend my point for the post all day long.
It was never a parargraph I said I believed nor agreed with, but one I questioned.

That was the small point that got skipped past in the hair trigger pile on of misinterpretation.


kcr

(15,315 posts)
97. Where in your post did you ask?
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 01:18 PM
Feb 2022

All I see is your excerpt, preceded by an emphasis that it is directly from the Holocaust Museum, and followed by the glowing recommendation. That's not questioning. That's an attempt to post a gotcha. Particularly since a celebrity just got rightly slammed for making a similar argument.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
98. And THAT is the misinterpretation of those who ran with the pile on,
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 01:24 PM
Feb 2022

..and never bothered to reply to all the times I repeatedly said why I brought the questionable OP here in the 1st place.

The articles at the Holocaust Museum link are indeed always a fascinating read.




kcr

(15,315 posts)
102. Yeah, didn't think you'd answer that
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 01:35 PM
Feb 2022

Just going to double down on how everyone else is wronging you. You remind me of a relative who can never be wrong.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,301 posts)
91. You took one line about "racial traits" and wrote, several times, as if that was "race"
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:38 PM
Feb 2022

and that it meant the Nazi persecution was based on "religion, not race".

Nazis had claimed there were "racial traits" of Jews (and others, for that matter). But, when it came to defining someone as Jewish, they couldn't do it using those "traits" (because even if there is any difference on average, the variation inside "Jews", "Roma", "Aryans" etc. was more than the difference between groups). So they went to something they could list and quantify (religious practice of grandparents) and then used descent from that. By using descent, they were saying "it's not about your religion", so it didn't matter if the people under threat of the 1930s laws were observant Jews, agnostic, or even converted to Christianity. They were indeed claiming it was about race (see all the paragraphs surrounding the one you quoted), but that they thought the religion of grandparents was the best way of determining race.

I thought you had begun to understand this, but your most recent replies, in which you claim you have been misinterpreted, don't look like that now. You don't need apologies; it would help if you acknowledged that going from "racial traits" to "race" had been misleading.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
93. You are quite wrong . Along with the one calling me a "holocaust denier".
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:55 PM
Feb 2022

I was asking to have the context of the Paragraph explained.
Not that I agreed with it.


muriel_volestrangler

(101,301 posts)
104. I didn't say you agreed with it; I said you had changed "racial traits" in it into "race"
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 01:50 PM
Feb 2022

For example, in your reply #12:

"It was Religion, & not Race.

So do we just ignore that statement ?

So which is it?
Race or Religion?"

You set up a false dichotomy - "Race or Religion?". You ignored the other paragraphs around it that talked about race, you made it look as if the paragraph was saying it was not "race" that was being attacked by the Nazis, but "religion". Whereas, in the paragraph, it talks about racial traits and grandparent's religion being the thing they used, at that moment, for determination.

You have misrepresented what that site said, and still don't seem to understand that.

Ohio Joe

(21,748 posts)
99. So... The next day and you are still 'just asking questions'
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 01:27 PM
Feb 2022

Does not matter how many times you have been answered. You will get no apology, but you should get a pizza.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
100. No. My question was answered by some who actually bothered to take the time.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 01:33 PM
Feb 2022

And I thanked them.
And actually I did indeed receive a couple of apologies. So maybe give that pizza to someone else.

I got the apology.

msfiddlestix

(7,278 posts)
79. huh? Didn't realize the Nuremberg laws were in denial..
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:16 PM
Feb 2022

wait. were these Nuremberg Laws enacted before or post Hitler/Nazis Regime/Holocaust/WWII/Nuremberg Trials?

In other words, what I'm asking is whether or not the "Nuremberg Laws" were a product of Nazism or was this thought embraced after the trials?

Happy Hoosier

(7,285 posts)
83. How does one inherit religion?
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:21 PM
Feb 2022

I mean.... they define that your GRANDPARENTS are Jewish because they follow the Jewish religion. But the individual in question is Jewish regardless of their actual religion because their grandparents were. How exactly does one inherit religion, may I ask?

It seems that a person is defined as being Jewish because they have the DNA of some people who were Jewish.

Anyone who wants to argue that's not racism needs to rethink that.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
92. Thanks That is exactly why I posted the paragraph here.
Thu Feb 3, 2022, 12:50 PM
Feb 2022

That was my reaction when reading the article, & I came across this paragraph. It made me stop. Best answer I got is that THAT was how Nazis justified whatever they were doing at the time.
They needed a record of people so saying they were using a grandparent's practicing of religion, as a reason to i.d. family, was just a typical Nazi method of lying & propaganda.


As I asked several times for an interpretation of the paragraph, that request apparantly was ignored.

So, thanks for your post.

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