The MSM may be gaslighting us with the NFL head coaching discrimination story

[Shermann]

Hear me out. I don't know what the "right wing talking points" may be on this subject and generally steer clear of those on DU. I'm approaching this from a statistical perspective and not a partisan one, so I'm asking for some leeway.

The headline is basically that 70% of NFL players are African American, but only one coach is. This sounds alarming at first, until you peel the onion a bit. First, I separate these into two statistics starting with the one African American coach. African Americans comprise 14% of the total US population. If this ratio were perfectly reflected in the population of NFL coaches, that would equal 4.5 coaches. Last year, there were 3 coaches. This was very close. Then Flores and Culler were fired, and we're down to 1. These two firings (which have not been demonstrated to be racially motivated) threw off the ratio substantially. However, the pool of 32 coaches is pretty small, so this is not statistically significant.

Then there's the statistic that 70% of players are African American. This is statistically significant considering the population of over 1600 players, and I don't claim to be able to explain it. Regardless, it really isn't the case that most coaches are ex-players who are promoted. There are some examples of that, but that is not the norm. Therefore, I don't see how the 70% statistic bolsters the position that African American coaches are underrepresented. If anything, the strongest case that can be made here is that white players are being underrepresented in the NFL.

[onecaliberal]

1. Nope. I don't give a shit what percent population.

It’s NOT okay to have only 1 black coach. /END

[Samrob]

3. Especially when the coaches being denied jobs have better records and experience than others hired.

Still the owners run the NFL like they want to. Remember, they denied Trump's bid to buy ownership or part ownership in a team.
But it really is sad to see winning coaches denied a head coach job in favor of coaches with loosing records season after season.

[BlackSkimmer]

10. Flores was hardly a "winning" coach. nt

[Diablo del sol]

35. Define that!

One game below 500 with Dolphins

10 and 6, 9 and 8, last two years.

Go look at how many Dolphin coaches had back to back winning seasons.

The firing sucks. Three three years in. A case could be made if he dropped win totals next year.

[MLAA]

2. Part of the issue, from what I've read, is the black coaches aren't being given fair interviews.

When they are interviewed it is so the hiring team can check a box that they interviewed a black candidate in some cases after the team already made a decision.

[Shermann]

5. I think this is an unintended consequence of the Rooney rule

At the end of the day, owners are going to hire the coaches that they have their eye on. That's just how it is going to be with millions of dollars at stake. So, these sham interviews are more of an effect than a cause of anything.

[uponit7771]

8. +1, which is happening in corp America in droves

[Mary in S. Carolina]

4. There are fewer white players that are as talented

as black players - that does not mean white players are underrepresented. Are you saying white coaches are more talented than black coaches??? When POC are given the opportunity, they soar, and this is why white men want to keep them down.

[Shermann]

9. I don't think you can draw any rock-solid conclusions from the hiring of only 32 coaches

That's kind of the whole point of the OP.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

13. I can draw a conclusion.

You are saying that 32 white coaches are more talented than any black coach? Very doubtful, I think it is more like 32 black coaches are more talented than any white coach.

Ok, let's dig a little deeper since the inception of professional football how many white coaches vs black coaches.

[Shermann]

16. I haven't made any assertions about who is or isn't more talented

Where did you even get that? Please don't put slurs like that in my mouth.

I haven't even made an assertion that there isn't prejudice in the NFL.

What I have said is the MSM hasn't made their case and I feel like I'm being gaslit.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

21. You said white players are underrepresented - my

claim is that they are not underrepresent - they don't have the talent.

[Shermann]

22. I'm saying you can't pound on the tables about the 1/32 statistic

...without also mentioning the larger elephant in the room regarding the players.

If the MSM's case is based mainly on statistics, there are two obvious fallacies there.

[Dan]

11. This is ugly what I will say, but here it is

I honestly don’t think that White parents would allow their children to spend large portions of their time playing a sport with the idea that they might make it into the Pro’s.

I think that some Black parents might see that as an only real opportunity for their kids and sometimes other alternatives might not be considered.

I think that this is especially true when you come from a background of poverty.

Sad thought on my part….

[Shermann]

12. Interesting, never really thought of it that way nt

[marmar]

14. Huh?

Taken as a whole, the majority of high school football players in the country are white, so their parents are apparently letting them spend large portions of their time doing it. What you're saying doesn't make any sense.

[Dan]

17. I stand by what i said.

[dpibel]

26. You have an opinion

Firmly held, apparently.

Can you, however, counter the factual argument that was presented to you?

[Mary in S. Carolina]

20. Exactly marmar

Does not make any sense at all and is actually offensive.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

18. Have you been to a football game?

All the white parents think their kids are going to be professional athletes, they get them the best coaches, send them off to camp, blah, blah, blah.

Facts are facts, 70+% of football players are black which tells me they are more talented. What you are saying is, because of their environment, POC are more motivated, work harder and are financially smarter (big $$$ in the NFL) than their white counterparts?

[Dan]

24. Let's work with what you say...

You can have all the talent in the world - but if you don’t put it to use, you will eventually lose it or it will diminish.

In the days when I played football - there were certain things that you could not teach:
(A). You could not teach speed.
(B). You could not teach size.
(C). You could not teach quickness.
(D). You could not teach hand/eye coordination.
Now,
You could teach aggression.
You could teach the fundamentals of football.

But, with your talents - you had to apply yourself, the more you applied the better your natural skills developed and were enhanced.

But I stand by this - parents of minority students will be more inclined to allow and support their gifted kids with working toward that dream of being a pro. This is probably more true when you come from a background of property. They know, the opportunities for their kids are limited because of historical issues, educational issues, prospects within their environment, and negative influences, so they know that sports can be an out.

Look at your first paragraph - and think how many POC parents are getting their kids the best coaches, sending them to camp…blah, blah, blah.

And in your final sentence in the final paragraph -: Environment definitively has an impact; POC are not only more motivated but also desperate; Work hard - yes, because of limited choices; and financially smarter - No, the ability to understand and make sound financial decisions (long and short term) comes from experiences, your parents, people that you know that have had an influences on you, knowing people that know money and how it works. Now with time, the ability to make money with money can be acquired - but just think of how many pro’s end up broke; and finally their white counterparts - their white counterparts that make it in the pro’s (some, not all) had the advantage of paragraph one. And if their parents had the resources to do the blah, blah, blah thing - don’t you think that somewhere they passed on some knowledge of financial management.

My thoughts…

[Mary in S. Carolina]

27. Wow Dan

70% of NFL football players are black, therefore, they are more talented than their white counterparts. By the way, both black and white football players have made piles of money and both black and white football players have lost piles of money.

At least those that made it to the NFL (70% black) actually made big money, so are you saying that white football players that lacked motivation, hard work and decided to forgo an NFL paycheck, went a different direction in life and made more money than then could have in the NFL? Can you give me an example of one such white person?

[Dan]

29. Let me see,

First paragraph - agree with you.

Second paragraph - first sentence - How would I be able to prove that? But yes, common sense would indicate that parts of the premise would be true “…white football players that lacked motivation…went a different direction in life…. More money ..than in the NFL”, It’s all about opportunities available in life.

I remember a White running back with the Seahawks (about 15 plus years ago), and I am sure that he was making a lot of money, but at some point in his career he gave up football to finish his education, became a doctor. Now, I doubt that he made as much money being a doctor as much as he would have made by continuing his football career - but he choose to quit and pursue another option.

[BlackSkimmer]

23. The black parents I know value education.

Rather offensive to imply only white parents do.

Have you been to any high school football games lately? PeeWee? Lots and lots of white players.

[Dan]

25. Of course, Black parents value education....

But not all.

If you reside in a crime infested property environment - you want the best for your children.

Sometimes, the opportunities are limited. Parents, with few exceptions, are going to do what is best for their children. But parents, most parents, are realistic.

The educational system for POC in poor neighborhoods are not the best. And, I won’t explore that any further because this is not the thread for that subject.

Now, not been to a football game recently….but run the math:

Lots and Lots of white players - and why so few make it into the pros? In theory, just doing the math, it seems like more white players might make it to the pros. But, the percentage of Black or White players that make it into the pros is small. White kids have more opportunities - at some point, they might decide on pursuing other options. Black kids from more desperate backgrounds don’t have as many options - so they pursue the dream, and some make it.

But, have you ever had the opportunity to sit down with a former friend - that was a naturally gifted athlete, the best you’ve ever seen? And, you wonder what happened - and they tell you how in college they were pursuing their dream - and in a pileup during a game, someone accidentally or on purpose gouged their eye, destroying that peripheral vision that is so critical to a running back/receiving. And the dream is loss, and they return home because a college is not keeping a player that loses that special something. And because no other options were considered - (keep in mind, a lot of athletes are getting an education in their skill, not all, but most) - they return home. Home, where for so many, they were trying to escape. It’s a sad tale.

Options!!!!

[Mary in S. Carolina]

28. So Black parents value education.... but not all?

Another wow, did you know there are a lot of white parents that value education...but not all.

So black kids come from crime infested areas...like where? Where are the black NFL football players coming from? Seriously what part of the country, rural, urban, north, south? Please back up what you are saying.

The NFL has 70+% black football players because they are more talented than their white counterparts, not because white football players are underrepresented.

Also, if a white kid had any chance, any chance at all of becoming a professional football player they would pursue a football career...end of story. Please name 1 white kid who decided not to be a professional football player because they pursued other options.

[Dan]

30. To your subject title - yes.

To the first paragraph - yes.

Black kids come from every stratus of society - but you are being disingenuous if you think that some portion of kids that pursue professional sports do not come from crime infested areas.

I suspect that Black NFL players come from all over the country, rural, urban, north and south.

Not sure where I said that White players are underrepresented - I basically said, that the White kids have more opportunities, so football does not have to be their first choice.

Reference your last sentence - I am sure that there are many, but I could not provide statistics on that or a name. But again, common sense says that if you have more opportunities - then you might choose to pursue different opportunities. Football is not the end-all, it is just an option, money from a professional sport is not the end-all, it is just another means of making money. And to go with that, I would suspect that there are even Black kids that decided not to pursue a professional career because of their options or desires.

My opinion.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

31. Regardless of Options - a Professional Football Career

will be the "only choice" whether you are black or white - common sense tells me that. Like I said give me one example of where any player whether black or white decided against professional football for another option.

Hahaha - I can see it now, "no, I am not going to pursue a professional career in football because I want to become an accountant" LOL.

Also, you are fooling yourself if you think that some portion of white football players do not come from crime infested areas. By the way rural areas do not equal crime infested areas.

[Dan]

32. Final comment on this subject.

..”Only Choice..”, I strongly disagree. But you have your belief system and I respect that but it is not mine.

“…white football players do not come…” - never said or implied that they did not. Crime, crime infested neighborhoods are equal opportunity.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

33. The only reason that white athletes

don't make it in professional football is that they got "cut"... pure and simple. Now white players may make an excuse that their life dream was to become an accountant - but I don't believe that.

You mentioned that some black players come from crime infested neighborhoods, I did not read where you said that some white players come from crime infested neighborhoods - why? Just curious

Black players make up over 75% of the NFL because they are more talented than their white counterparts. Fact.

[Dan]

36. I said, that crime and crime infested neighborhoods are equal opportunity.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

37. Yes, only after I called you out.

You can go back and check your posts.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

6. This lawsuit is not about proportional representation, but collusion and discrimination in hiring.

This is a weird OP.

[Shermann]

7. I can't really comment on the Flores lawsuit

I can only comment on the broad case the media is making right now as opposed to an individual legal case.

[marmar]

15. "This is a weird OP."

For real.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

19. Very weird

[Solomon]

38. This op is a crock of shit.

I mean, really. what a crock of shit!

[FakeNoose]

34. The purpose of the Rooney Rule is to give Blacks the opportunity to interview for a better job

Whenever the candidate slate is closed out and no Blacks are considered, then everybody loses. The hardest loss is to the worthy Blacks/minorities who never got a chance to be considered. By opening up the interviewing process to people outside the small group of candidates who are favored by the white owners' clique, then eventually the NFL owners and managers will widen their circle of contacts. Eventually Blacks and minorities will be considered because they truly deserve to be there, not because their place is dictated by a Rule.

We're at the stage now where Blacks and minorities have become successful assistant coaches and assistant managers, and they've been slowly advancing, proving their worth and becoming successful. The next stage is for those (Black and minority) assistant coaches and managers to step up and become head coaches and general managers. There's no magic to this, and there are no guarantees. It takes hard work, diligence, patience and also luck - being in the right place at the right time, and knowing the right people.

I don't see how lawsuits are going to change that.

[madville]

39. Comparing demographics of coaches/players is meaningless

It’s two different career tracks, not unlike the military. Not many modern generals or admirals start out in the enlisted ranks, you get an occasional one but not very often these days.

The fact that 70% of NFL players are Black has little bearing on potentially being an NFL coach, it actually is detrimental. A more accurate statistic would be, what’s the current racial makeup of coaches who are also former NFL players? Do former white NFL players get more coaching opportunities than former Black players?

Sure, decades ago there were more coaches that were former pro players but in the last 30-40 years coaching has become more and more it’s own career track starting in college.

Look at the top NFL coaches this year, Andy Reid, Sean McVay, Kyle Shanahan, Zac Taylor, Sean McDermott, Bruce Arians, Matt Lafleur, Mike McCarthy. None were NFL players, they are all career coaches starting after their college days (some were college players, some graduate assistant coaches).