What if Ukraine were to state they would join NATO when Russia does?

[Uncle Joe]

Last edited Mon Feb 14, 2022, 10:47 PM - Edit history (1)

Of course Russia would have to recognize Ukraine's sovereignty and pull their troops back.

Furthermore both would need to meet NATO's minimum requirements first.

[MontanaMama]

1. NATO would never let Russia join, would they?

I'm still trying to figure out how this ends and it is getting worrisome.

[Uncle Joe]

3. Why not, so long as they meet NATO's minimum requirements?

https://www.rferl.org/a/1099020.html

[48656c6c6f20]

2. I think it's the most bizarre thing

I've heard to be honest. At face value it seems straight up appeasement. Why would we reward someone like Putin? How about this, Russian people, get rid of Putin and we Might start dealing with you again on the world stage. If not go kick rocks.

[Uncle Joe]

4. I believe it would serve three purposes,

1. Help insure Ukraine's sovereignty.

2 It will alleviate Russian concerns about the world's preeminent military alliance growing on its' border.

3. It will help give internal motivation for Russian democratic reforms.

[Demsrule86]

6. I don't agree at all...it is appeasement at its worst.

[Uncle Joe]

9. What would we be giving Putin?

[Demsrule86]

10. That he could control who was NATO and who wasn't.

[Uncle Joe]

11. NATO makes the ultimate decision regardless,

so long as the nation meets their minimum requirements, why not?

[Demsrule86]

25. No, it would be out of NATO's hands.

[Uncle Joe]

32. No, NATO gets to decide whether any nation has met its' criteria and gets to join

as they do now.

If Russia never meets NATO's criteria they never join, Ukraine whether they join or not still has their security taken care of by the potential agreement.

[SheltieLover]

12. This!👆

[Demsrule86]

26. Thanks SheltieLover!

[SheltieLover]

31. Yw!

[Demsrule86]

5. No, you don't cater to bullies it only makes them more agressive.

[Uncle Joe]

8. The bullies don't win unless they change.

[Demsrule86]

18. Perhaps you have had limited personal experience with bullies...as a Navy brat who was put

in public school from time to time-I have such experience. They all want the same thing dominance over people...they don't change and sometimes sadly they win. I recently went back to a reunion and the bullies were still well bullies.

Putin is looking for weakness and we must not show weakness. What you suggest is us 'blinking'. It is trite but true that the only way you stop bullies is to stand up to them...I had several fights (I am a woman and petite). but I had three brothers and where other girls slap and kick, I punch and use whatever objects are handy (Dad always said throw the first punch and a two by four is an 'equalizer'. After a couple of these encounters, we all got suspended and they left me alone.

Some of their targets were bullied for their entire time in school...now you might think that is different than Putin, but it really isn't. Appeasement never works with bullies. I am not saying we go to war, but freeze all assets, confiscate all Russian property in the US, and impose economic sanctions. That is how you deal with a bully...try to give him a taste of what is to come and maybe he might back down.

[Uncle Joe]

21. The only thing I'm suggesting is that we allow the primary parties an option

to avoid needless war...period.

Putin gets nothing unless Russia changes, Ukraine keeps their democracy and security.

The primary reason for joining any military alliance is security.

[Demsrule86]

24. I didn't say we should got to war...I indicated we used other means to dissuade Putin.

The reason we can't do this is that...if Putin wins, he will be back with more demands and only a Putin-friendly government would be allowed in the end. Maybe he can be stopped but appeasing him will only ensure more demands are made.

[Uncle Joe]

33. I agree with your first sentence and I believe this to be "other means"

Perhaps it might be beneficial if we could think bigger than Putin and include all of Russia's concerns.

I don't view this as appeasement, rather a logical, workable agreement that takes care of both nations' plus NATO's primary stated concerns.

[Tommy Carcetti]

7. What if the sun refused to shine? What it the clouds refused to rain?

What if the wind refused to blow?
What if the seas refused to wave?
What if the world refused to turn?
What if the stars would hesitate?
What if, what is isn't true?
What are you going to do?
What if, what is isn't you?
Does that mean you've got to lose?
Digging for the feel of something new

[SheltieLover]

13. Nobody wants Russia in NATO.

[Uncle Joe]

14. What if Russia were a democracy?

[SheltieLover]

15. But it is not a democracy.

[Uncle Joe]

16. And it can't join NATO at this time but what if it became one.

[GoCubsGo]

17. Why should Ukraine have to state anything?

They are a sovereign nation. They can join whatever pacts they please, whether Russia likes it or not. And, any NATO-related agreement isn't going to stop Putin from coveting Ukraine. He wants it for other reasons, including a desire to reconstitute the old Soviet Union, their farmlands, and their oil natural gas resources.

[Uncle Joe]

19. For one if Ukraine were to state such a thing, it would remove whatever

real or imagined concern; the Russian people have which in turn may give more influence to retired generals urging Putin to back off.

As Vladimir Putin steps up his military pressure on the Ukrainian border, there are signs that some members of Russia’s officer corps oppose his actions.

The most eyebrow-raising of these dissents is an open letter by retired Col. Gen. Leonid Ivashov posted on the website of the All-Russian Officers’ Assembly, which he chairs. In it, he rejects Putin’s claim that NATO poses a threat to Russia’s vital interests, warns that invading Ukraine “will forever make Russians and Ukrainians mortal enemies,” and calls on Putin to step down. He concludes, “We, Russia’s officers, demand that the President of the Russian Federation reject the criminal policy of provoking a war in which Russia would find itself alone against the united forces of the West.”

Ivashov is no pacifist. Alexander Golts, a longtime reporter for the Russian military newspaper Red Star, now an editor at Daily Journal, described him in a recent column as “deeply rooted in the Russian establishment.” As an active-duty officer in the 1990s (his rank corresponds to the U.S. Army’s three-star general), Ivashov led the attempt to block NATO troops from entering Kosovo. A hardcore Russian nationalist, he was in charge of Moscow’s military relations with the former Soviet republics in the years following the breakup of the USSR.

(snip)


https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/02/ukraine-crisis-putin-military-opposition.html

If nothing else Putin wouldn't have that fig leaf.

[GoCubsGo]

30. It won't remove anything, because this isn't about NATO.

Putin's other ambition in Ukraine. have little, if anything to do with NATo.

[Uncle Joe]

35. Is Putin using NATO as propaganda to invade?

[GoCubsGo]

38. And, what happens when you give him this, and he threatens to invade again?

Which he will. What will you concede to him then?

[Uncle Joe]

39. He pays for it, if Putin is so stupid as to invade Ukraine, it will be his and Russia's albatross.

Nothing is conceded by this proposal other than taking both nations into NATO if and when they meet NATO's minimum guidelines as a pair.

We're not conceding anything except recognizing legitimate Russian concerns about a growing military alliance on their border, that's it.

Once we have done that, that piece of "NATO threat" propaganda will be removed.

[phylny]

20. I think Ukraine should say,

if Russia steps one foot into Ukraine, we will join NATO.

[Uncle Joe]

22. That could be part of it as well.

[Hav]

27. The problem is they cannot do that

As far as I know, you cannot join NATO while being in an unresolved conflict.

[phylny]

29. Thanks!

I know nothing about rules. I’m just so frustrated.

[marie999]

23. Ukraine won't join NATO because it takes 100% of NATO members to vote yes,

and I don't think every NATO country wants to go to war against Russia and Belarus which they would have to do if Ukraine became a member.

[Hav]

28. Russia also knows that as well, it's a vicious circle

One reason for preventing Ukraine from joining Nato is that they wouldn't be able to attack Ukraine without dragging all Nato members into that war. I think that's why Russia is that aggressive now. They want to control Ukraine before they aren't able to do that anymore without causing WW3.
Meanwhile, Ukraine cannot join Nato as long as they are in an active conflict.

As to the OP, I like the thought, Uncle Joe, but (leaving aside that it doesn't exist anymore) it's like speculating about the US joining the Warsaw Pact. Just the thought of it is polar opposite to the image Putin likes to sell to his people.

[Uncle Joe]

34. I agree but I don't believe that alone

will remove Putin's fig leaf and dissuade him from invading.

[marie999]

36. Right now, I don't think anyone knows what is going to happen including Putin.

[Uncle Joe]

37. I agree with that as well.