Pastor Resigns After Incorrectly Performing Thousands of Baptisms

[Zorro]

The pastor of a Catholic church in Phoenix changed one word in administering the sacrament, rendering baptisms performed there invalid, the church said.

The Rev. Andres Arango was leading a baptism at St. Gregory Catholic Church in Phoenix last year when some people in the pews heard a slight variation in the religious ritual.

“We baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Father Arango said, his voice echoing in the church as he poured the holy water.

But there was a problem.

Saying “we baptize” was incorrect. The Vatican instructs priests to say “I baptize,” and if it is not said that way the baptism is deemed invalid.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/14/us/catholic-priest-baptisms-phoenix.html

Well, not as bad as a botched circumcision, but whatever...

[C_U_L8R]

1. 'We" sounds more appropriate.

[Rhiannon12866]

2. Agreed...

[Irish_Dem]

6. It cannot be a 'we." The priest is the only one in the church who can perform a legal bap.

[regnaD kciN]

14. Incorrect. Baptism is the one sacrament that can be performed by the laity...

The problem, as I understand it, is that the individual, clerical or lay, doing the baptism is acting as a representative of Christ, who is actually considered to be the one baptizing -- therefore it's supposed to be "I," not "we."

[Irish_Dem]

21. But in a church with a priest, it is the priest who does the bap.

Not the laity. Unless times have changed.

[Sanity Claws]

47. My recollection of Catholic teaching on this

A lay person could perform baptism in an emergency. Remember Catholic Church used to teach that unbaptized babies who die go to limbo, not heaven. Accordingly, if someone had just given birth and it appeared that the baby would not survive, then lay person should perform baptism.

[Caliman73]

85. You are correct.

In an emergency situation, where there are no ordained clergy present, in order to save the "soul" of an unbaptized Catholic who is dying, a lay person can perform the ritual and it will be recognized "in heaven".

Otherwise, priests are the primary officiants of the sacrament.

[FakeNoose]

16. Actually I was taught in Catholic school that any baptized Catholic can perform a baptism

It's not just the priest who can perform baptism, even though he would normally perform the service. In an emergency, for example if an unbaptized baby is dying, any Catholic can baptize the baby before death.

I don't remember ever hearing someone say "We baptize you ...." As far as I know it has always been "I baptize you ...."

[Irish_Dem]

22. Yes of course, but not when a priest is standing right there.

[Historic NY]

33. I do remember that but it was anyone dying or on the way out...

maybe the Mormons can fix it

[link:https://www.catholic.com/qa/regarding-baptizing-a-dying-friend|]

[Freethinker65]

17. "We" would include the priest.

"We" does not mean one could be considered baptized without the priest.

But, heck, it's the Catholic Church, and they have lots of rules to obey. (Try getting an annulment decades ago if you weren't a Kennedy.)

Too bad the parents cannot just wait until the children are of confirmation age to decide whether they want to be part of the Catholic Church. I believe purgatory for the unbaptized magically disappeared a while ago?

[Irish_Dem]

23. You have to be bapped right away in case you die.

If you are not bapped, you go directly to hell, do not pass go.

[nuxvomica]

48. I thought unbaptized innocents went to Limbo

Which is a nice place but you can't see "the face of God" there.

[Irish_Dem]

52. If you are a nice Catholic baby you get to go to limbo.

All others go directly to hell.

Sad, but what I was taught.

[kskiska]

73. They did away with Limbo quite a while ago.

Funny how that works.

[lagomorph777]

92. Too many back injuries.

And it made the services look kind of silly.

[DenaliDemocrat]

66. Not true. Anyone can baptize a baby.

In an emergency you don’t even need water.

In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize, by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation. (CCC 1256)


Most often this is seen in birthing centers, where newborn infants are quickly baptized by a nurse or doctor, when death appears imminent. In this particular case, the parents request this to be done (usually beforehand) and those administering baptism do so with the right intention. Sometimes a baby will recover, in which case the parish priest will perform additional rites surrounding the sacrament of baptism, as it is not possible to be baptized twice.

At the other end of the spectrum, adults who are dying can also be baptized if they request it, by anyone who is present. Fr. Paul de Ladurantaye explains in the Arlington Catholic Herald exactly how this is done.

In the case of necessity (e.g., the danger of death), the person who baptizes pours water three times over the candidate’s head, or immerses the candidate three times in water, while simultaneously pronouncing the baptismal formula: “N., I baptize you in the name of the Father (the minster pours water or immerses the first time), and of the Son (the minister pours water or immerses a second time), and of the Holy Spirit (the minister pours water or immerses a third time).” A lay person who administers an emergency baptism must at least have the intention to do what the Church does when baptizing. It is also desirable that, as far as possible, one or two witnesses to the baptism be present.
It must be kept in mind that this type of baptism performed by laypeople should only be administered to people in an emergency situation.

[intheflow]

54. If, as the Catholic church claims, all are one in Christ,

then "we" is completely appropriate.

[ificandream]

3. As a Catholic, to invalidate all those baptisms is crazy ...

[Irish_Dem]

8. I agree, this is silly.

[Sgent]

24. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

is going full Inquisition on this, at least 2 other priests/deacons have had decades of baptisms invalidated on top of this priest's 20 years. And they are claiming that this makes baptisms as invalid as using milk instead of wine for the Eucharist.

At least one priest was caught up in this (invalidly baptized at birth), and thus his ordination was invalid, and thus all his confessions, marriages, etc.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/theology/signs-times/vatican-causes-chaos-invalidating-baptism-formula

[Hekate]

34. I thought Pope Francis was reining them in. This is just kind of nuts. Very chaotic.

It not being my faith, and me being an American, my official personal opinion is it’s their ritual and they can do with it what they will as long as they don’t break any US laws. However, I retain an interest in the faith of my long-dead grandparents — and I thought this Pope was bringing some of the bureaucracy, including this office, to heel.

Aside from that, wasn’t there some Medieval decision (probably based on priests being a rare commodity) that even if a priest turned out to be a bad man, that would not invalidate the sacraments he performed? And after all the troubles of the past several decades, and what with young men having lots of other options, priests are in short supply in the here and now. I would have defrocked a whole raft of them for raping little boys — but not for leaving out a jot or tittle by accident.

Wow. I guess I better go read the article at the link.

[Hekate]

37. So I read the article at your link, & it was eyebrow-raising. However in the final paragraphs...

… the author manages to bring it to an intelligent resolution, thus:

The Archdiocese of Detroit has made the best of a bad situation, but the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith needs to pull this ruling. It was a mistake and a pastoral catastrophe. It would have been better to declare the formula illicit but valid.

The congregation also needs to change its way of making such decisions. Prior to issuing such an important decision, the congregation needs to announce that it is studying the question and ask for input from theologians and pastors from around the world, not just a small clique of Vatican and Roman university experts. Then, it should issue a proposed rule and ask for comments before issuing a final decision.

When the Vatican makes mistakes, it is often because it wants to project an image of being all-knowing and all-wise and therefore not in need of advice. By not getting input, the congregation made a mistake that hurt its credibility. By not practicing the synodality so ardently encouraged by Pope Francis, the congregation has thrown the church into chaos. The church should not act like a computer; it should act like Christ.

(Jesuit Fr. Thomas Reese is a columnist for Religion News Service and author of Inside the Vatican: The Politics and Organization of the Catholic Church.)

https://www.ncronline.org/news/theology/signs-times/vatican-causes-chaos-invalidating-baptism-formula

[hunter]

84. Thanks for that link.

It adds so much more to the discussion than the usual hit-and-run quips.

As I've posted here on DU previously, my relationship with the church (and religion in general) is complicated.

I don't have any tolerance for anti-intellectual religion, or anti-intellectualism in general.

[Hekate]

91. That likely would be an interesting discussion. My own path has taken some interesting turns. nt

[brooklynite]

53. The only reason people think this story is serious...

...is that the congregants think its necessary.

[ret5hd]

28. Tha magick incantations gotta be incanted just exactly so!

Just think if those witches woulda said :

Eye of Pete, and toe of Bob,
Wool of Mat, and tongue of Tom...

Just wouldn't be the same, I tell ya.

[lindysalsagal]

4. That's it! Yer all going to haell.

[walkingman]

5. Puh-leeze....Humanity's salvation depends on a singular noun. God must be an English teacher.

[Skittles]

7. either way you get the same results

ya know?

[3Hotdogs]

20. That's the truth and for those words of wisdom, 3 Hotdogs for you at

Johnny's Hot Dog Stand on Rt. 46 in Buttsville, N.j. if you ever come to New Jersey.

[hatrack]

9. And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, .

"O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade at with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy."

And the Lord did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu...

And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it." Amen.

[Freethinker65]

10. Pretty sure if there is a God, she wouldn't care.

[dalton99a]

11. Thousands of souls will go to Satan if they don't get a redo ASAP

[3Hotdogs]

18. No. You can't go to Hell if you ain't been baptized.

But you do get to go to Limbo, away from the sight of the Lord.... and you won't have to look at the face of Pat Robertson, Swaggert, Franklin Graham, (that one's the sickest fuck of them all) Jimmy Bakker and so forth.

So .... I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me Limbo or give me death.

[Hangingon]

76. Benedict did away with Limbo

[3Hotdogs]

77. Well if Pope Benadryl can change the nature of the universe,

why doesn't he get rid of Trump?

[Renew Deal]

87. Wouldn't some already be there?

[Goodheart]

12. So, if all those people die right now they're going to hell?

Catholicism is nonsense. As is Protestantism. As is every other religion.

[Celerity]

43. +1

[FakeNoose]

55. It's not the Catholic teaching any more, but many of us grew up learning the "old ways"

I'm 70 years old and I went to Catholic schools in the 1960's. Everything started changing back then, since the Vatican II ecumenical council and later. Catholics no longer consider Lutherans and other protestants as "enemies" which is a ridiculous thought anyway. That old stuff was just rubbish, a lot of it (like unbaptized babies going to hell when they died) was not much better than superstition.

The things you're reading here on DU should be taken with a grain of salt. Most of us recognize that the evolution of Catholic/Christian teaching has gone forward in the last 50+ years. The current problems with the Catholic Church mostly center on being stuck with the anti-abortion anti-choice politics, and also the scandal of the pedo-priests.

If you're anti-religion that's fine. I get it. But don't single out just the Catholics, because all religions have faults.

[joshcryer]

61. Biblical historians say that Mark 16:16 was added later.

Specifically Mark 16 : 9-20. It was added because before this there was no obligate ritual under Christianity, and all it required is one to Believe in Jesus. The Church added it in to create obligate behavior, so that it could control that behavior and be the arbitrator over a religion which was being self-created by its adherents.

[Goodheart]

69. I see voiding all these baptisms as just another move to get all those people back into church

It's a money grab.

[joshcryer]

70. I see it as standardizing a procedure...

...to keep the Church "whole." By forcing a procedure that the Church and only the Church can provide to you, if you believe in that Church, you will comply with the procedure and all the other procedures that it entails. This is why so many Churches have such ritualistic behavior.

[wendyb-NC]

13. Oh come on

That's flat out ludicrous. I agree with those who say, the we sounds better. It does, because being baptized into the church as a congregation makes it plural. They need to forgive the Rev., and give him his job back.

[maxsolomon]

15. HEADS MUST ROLL! Jesus Christ is there no end to the madness?

I hope these baptismal victims get their tithe back!

God/Jesus/Holy Ghost isn't helping? WTF are they doing? Are they too busy to help?

[3Hotdogs]

19. --- and just wait 'till the Kraken gets ahold of that priest's sorry ass.

[Tarc]

25. Christians...

[NQAS]

26. As a non-Catholic...

This seems like the kind of thing college freshmen would argue about in their dorm rooms.

[hatrack]

27. Depending on how stoned they were . . . .

[Sgent]

35. Yea

I'm mostly not Catholic (although baptized? as such) and am dumbstruck the CDF did this without thinking through the repercussions. They should have made the baptisms illicit rather than not valid. They are retroactively putting people who buy their theologies souls' at risk through no fault of their own?

[niyad]

39. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? This was actually debated.

[TheBlackAdder]

29. Something about holding their heads under water for five minutes, right?

[Sympthsical]

30. I knew it

God is a grammar pedant who hangs out on Reddit.

It all makes sense now.

[genxlib]

31. Seems really unfair

We don't know how many personalities he has rolling around in that head of his.

You have to be a little bit of a split personality to believe both the Old and New Testament.

[JT45242]

32. Sheer hypocrisy of the RCC

When my wife told me about this yesterday, I was struck by the sheer hypocrisy of the Roman Catholic Church.

Pedophile priest who abused and molested hundreds of kids. That's ok. We'll just ship him to a new parish to victimize more kids.hell, we'll even steal land and assets from nunneries to pay off the legal settlement to those victims.

But, saying "we" indicating a family of believers as supportive of the baptism, that's a bridge too far.

So, to be clear rapists and pedophiles are OK by the church. But, indications that the whole congregation works for the baptized individual is totally unacceptable.

So glad I left the cesspool that is the RCC in my youth.

[Sgent]

36. When

I first read this I thought one bishop had gone off the rails a bit... nope, it was the CDF. There are now at least 3 priests who used this invalid formula -- one who baptized a child who then became a priest, so that priests ordination is considered invalid, etc.

[niyad]

41. Exactly.

[DFW]

38. One thing the incorrectly baptized can ponder

They felt no different after the errneous baptism than they would have after a correct baptism. Maybe that should tell them something.

[niyad]

40. Dear Goddess. As an ex-comm, I had to look to make certain that this was not

The Onion.

Living proof that some people have wayyyyyyyyyyy too much time on their hands.

[SheltieLover]

45. Definately!

Having been reared in the RCC belief system, I always felt (and argued!) about the hypocracy, man-made rules, and the sheer arrogance of instilling guilt & fear into church members. 😏

I was always in hot water...

[Celerity]

42. Lol. Religion, what a scam, what a sham.

[Raine]

44. "I or We" it shouldn't matter

I doubt babies will go to hell because of a slight variation, they were baptized no matter what.

[CrackityJones75]

46. Such a wonderful God

A guy screwed up so your baptism is null and void.

End the charade. And I don’t mean to question peoples faith but come on…

[HAB911]

49. This OP should be shared on the Humor board

[Xoan]

50. The STUPID just oozes.

[Captain Stern]

51. This decision deserves every bit of ridicule that it will receive.

The whole thing sounds like a Monty Python skit...and not even one of the really good ones.

[yellowcanine]

56. And the Catholic Church wonders why men don't want to be priests any more.

It is shit like this and not ordaining women as priests which is slowly killing the Catholic Church.

[nolabear]

57. St Peter at the gate: "I'm sorry; there's been a mistake."

[Midnight Writer]

58. God sends thousands to burn in The Fiery Pit over a technicality.-The Real Headline

[hunter]

59. The Church is going to learn something it doesn't want to know...

... when they call in those teenagers for a by-the-book baptism.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

60. Seriously?

I was raised Catholic but this sounds a bit minor to me.

[MineralMan]

62. As an atheist for 60 years, I say, "It doesn't freaking matter!"

If religious belief can hinge on one word said over you when you were an infant, that is incredibly stupid, indeed.

Petty crap not worth paying any attention to, it seems to me.

[lagomorph777]

63. That seems harsh. It's not like he did the freelance mohel thing.

So now all those kids will go to Hell, or get repossessed by the Devil, or excommunicated or something?

[Sanity Claws]

64. Sometime in the 1960s after the Second Vatican Council

the ritual said "holy ghost," not "holy spirit." Does that also mean that baptisms prior to this change are also invalid?

The whole thing is utter nonsense.

[Mysterian]

65. Religion is stupid as fuck

Stupid-ass fairy tales and idiot rituals to abate human fear of death.

[dumbcat]

67. "We" certainly sounds more inclusive

Doesn't the Catholic Church want to be inclusive?

[jmowreader]

68. Here's what's confusing to me

You have a congregation of Catholics who know doctrinal law well enough to know saying “We baptize thee” rather than “I baptize thee” is enough to render the baptism invalid and secure the object of the exercise a seat on the Hell Express…

…but who didn’t have the courage to go to the priest and tell him “we” is the wrong word to use?

[milestogo]

71. God is such a stickler about the little things.

The big things, not so much.

[Diablo del sol]

72. Here is the part that chaps my ass

Church is not far from where I grew up, working class neighborhood, a Priest trying to be inclusive and do his best.

Formal Cardinal from Phx was at the church in my neighborhood, had a few too many at a funeral about 20 years ago, killed a guy driving back. He and the church tried to cover it up at first.

So a Pastor/Priest with roots from South of the US, in a church that was likely majority minority is forced out. Are you friggen kidding me!

Had he abused an alter boy he likely would have had a better chance of keeping his job.

[Xolodno]

74. I would like to say I'm surprised...but I'm not.

After the first Ecumenical council it was all about asserting authority of the church. The Apocalypse of Peter, widely regarded to be authentic, excluded from the Bible because it actually took authority away from the Church.

[BGBD]

75. This is dumb

[Emile]

78. This is so stupid.

[Meowmee]

79. Seems like a semantic issue

Of little import

[AngryOldDem]

80. I literally rolled my eyes at this.

In the scheme of things, semantics is the least of God’s problems, but that’s the Catholic Church for ya!

[Solly Mack]

81. Sorry, Bob. Your Last Rites were invalidated. You got to go. Oops.

[Beetwasher.]

82. Finally, All These Busy Bodies Have Something Useful and Meaningful to Do! LOL!

Oh the drama! LOL!

Man, the Vatican must be just a bunch of bored people with nothing worthwhile to do apparently. LOL!

[Jacson6]

83. One of the people he baptizes arrives at the pearly gates...

Saint Peter looks him up in the Book of Life. OOPS the priest said "we" instead of "I". You have to go to hell.

[StarryNite]

86. So God isn't forgiving?

One blunder, one little word and bam! You're doomed to hell, even if it wasn't your mistake.

[BluesRunTheGame]

88. Perhaps there's some sort of ceremony that could be performed...

…to send the pastor to hell in place of all those whose baptisms he screwed up.

[jalan48]

89. His actions have undermined the legitimacy of their superstition.

[Mariana]

90. Is God really so easily confused?

'Tis a mystery.