My Daughter Was Fired Today

[rustysgurl]

She was a log/compliance manager for a trucking company for just short of 5 years. Since the pandemic she worked remotely for over a year -- very successfully if her department's metrics are any indication. She supervised her employees (who were also working remotely) and received good performance reviews and raises, going from hourly to salary. She and her husband (who is an owner/operator for the same company) bought a farm about 2 hours away, with the company's knowledge. She's been living there since last September, doing her job and functioning just fine.

Fast forward to last November, when her employer hired a new safety manager. He came from a large trucking company to "reorganize" and help the company improve its metrics with FMCSA (they are currently undergoing an audit). Based on some of the conversations she's shared with me, the guy is a Grade A misogynist. He basically treated her like his personal admin assistant. He abhors technology, doesn't like virtual meetings and said he hated remote workers because you couldn't trust anyone who wasn't in the office (where he could watch them). He posted a position on the company's website (which contained a lot of her job duties). When he asked him if she needed to "interview" for it, he said he "wouldn't consider giving her an interview unless she came back into the office."

He announced 2 weeks ago that EVERYONE was coming back into the office on March 1st. She made arrangements to move back to her house here. She's been coming up to the office every Wednesday for in-person meetings preparatory to returning, and he's been giving her lists of tasks to finish in anticipation of that.

Today, he and the head of Human Resources called her and fired her. When she asked why this was happening given that she was coming back into the office per his request, he said he was "downsizing" her department and didn't want her to have to find a new place to live (I guess forgetting she told him she had a house here). He said she wasn't being fired "for cause," they wouldn't dispute unemployment and would give her severance and paid vacation.

She is gutted. I'm wondering if anything is actionable, given that KS is a right-to-fire state.

I want to punch this snake right in the throat. She says he pretty much fired her because he didn't like her and I don't know what to say other than "I'm sorry."

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

1. So sorry to hear.

[XanaDUer2]

2. That stinks

I was laid off in 2010 and it still hurts. I'm so sorry for your daughter.

[brush]

3. Tell her to get a lawyer. Sounds like she's got a good case...

especially since she was making preparation to move back into the office, and he didn't fire her for cause. She should date and document every conversation, message, email and phone call she can remember having with him.

[SheltieLover]

6. Maybe sign up for unemployment?

Once they approve, wouldn't that prove she was not terminated for cause?

Not a lawyer.

[brush]

8. I'd get the unemployment first as he might try to fight it if...

he finds out she may take legal action. But writing down everything she can remember him saying will help her lawyer to see if she should move forward with action.

Quite often companies will settle out of court. Which could be a sizeable sum. And let's face it, if you're over a certain age, it's very likely she'll never get another comparable job because ageism is definitely a factor nowadays.

[SheltieLover]

10. Me too!

Great idea to document conversations. Even with that, though, wouldn't it be her word against his?

Presuming he opts to lie... 😏

[brush]

14. There may be texts, emails also that should be saved.

And the lawyer may be able to use "his words" that she remembers to trap him in a lie. You never know. Good lawyers can may be able to use them.

[SheltieLover]

20. Great point!

Ty!

[MontanaMama]

110. THIS.

Most people do not take the time to document what happens in these situations because of the stress surrounding all of it and they might not think it will matter but it most certainly does. Her boss likely didn’t take notes. Courts and judges look favorably on documentation.

[Shrike47]

13. I am a retired lawyer. I don't think there's a case here absent a contract saying she won't be fired

Employers in at-will states can fire you because they don’t like you. It sounds like the firing is not because of her gender, her race, her religion. Employers don’t have to keep employees they don’t want.

It’s sad and it’s brutal.

[Hortensis]

23. Sad, hard on most people, and standard.

[TomSlick]

32. This is the correct answer. She should speak with a lawyer.

Under right-to-fire laws, an employer may not fire an employee for an illegal reason - like sex discrimination. I don't know if she can make a case but she ought to speak with an employment law attorney.

[Demsrule86]

78. It is a right to work state ...there is no recourse.

[brush]

80. See post 32. It never hurts to consult a good employment attorney.

[Demsrule86]

85. Then they might oppose unemployment as retaliation...and attorney's cost money. I live in Ohio-

a right to work state- I don't believe there is any recourse. I will say Ohio is strict with employers on unemployment compensation. We have appealed twice and won both cases.

[brush]

86. So are you saying not to consult an expert employment lawyer...

for their opinion on the case?

[Demsrule86]

87. In a right to work state, I would not. I feel it would be a waste of money.

And severance is usually paid if one signs away the right for a lawsuit or official complaint. She could also lose unemployment.

[brush]

91. See post 77. You never know.

[Demsrule86]

103. I would take the money and get a new job. That is just me.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

94. You are conflating "right to work" with "at-will employment." "Right to work" is a state rule that

means you can benefit from collective bargaining contracts without paying union dues. "At-will employment" is an understanding of federal employment law that means your employer can fire you for any reason other than being a member of a protected class, or unless you are covered by a contract. Every state has "at-will" employment; the terms vary.

[Pacifist Patriot]

106. Add "for retaliatory reasons" to discrimination and contractual obligations.

At will generally doesn't cover retaliating against workplace complaints and whistleblowers.

[uponit7771]

89. Unnnn, if he showed some kind of Animus towards women maybe

[brush]

90. IMO it wouldn't hurt to consult an expert employment lawyer.

There may be some text messages or emails that show discriminatory behavior. At least the lawyer can tell if there is a case.

It sure sounds like she was trying to comply by making housing arrangements so she could move back into the office but he fired her anyway.

[inthewind21]

100. In an at will state

She will get nowhere. He said he was downsizing. As long as they don't replace her, there's pretty much nothing that can/will be done. Been there done that. Technicality is, as long as they don't REPLACE HER. If your title is Shipping manager and they ax you to downsize, as long as they don't hire another shipping manager but instead hire a shipping coordinator, your swimming upstream.

[LakeArenal]

4. Nice people get axed when a department is "reorganized"

Happened to my Dad.
Happened to me in 2009 in the Bush housing collapse.

It’s usually politically motivated in my case. But I’m sure yours was a lot more about a capable woman.

Good luck.

[SheltieLover]

7. That's what it sounds like to me

Resentment of a strong capable woman.

[Moostache]

22. Sad but true...I lived a similar situation in 2009.

In 2008, I was diagnosed with cancer - small cell renal carcinoma. My treatment was 100% successful (surgical ablation with margin) and I was lucky. I did miss time in 2008 to have the surgery and recovery, but I was back at work and in my office before Thanksgiving that year. I had been assigned to a new department head previous to my diagnosis and while it was not an individual I unfamiliar with (having worked with them on previous projects) it was also not the same support I had in my previous manager and upline structure (who had recruited me out of college and hired me in 1993.

I received a satisfactory performance evaluation for 2008 and nothing appeared to be out of sorts heading into 2009 - except for the loss of my previous supporters in the management strutcure (in retrospect, I should have been alarmed when 4 of the 5 people I was most familair with had left in the preceeding 18 months, but I was still too trusting and naive to see what was happening around me), my return from a surgery and recovery, and the total collapse of the economy around the Great Recession and the banking crisis.

In February of 2009, just as President Obama took office and as the job losses in he country hit their worst, I was summoned to a meeting to discuss a safety violation of an employee under my supervision. They had failed to follow protocol exactly, and I had instructed them to clean up the area and decontaminate it; but was informed that I had not ensured they followed the proper decontamination process. It was madness...I WROTE the procedure for this specific substance and had performed the task myself several times in years before this incident...yet, while I was out on leave, my replacement manager had rewritten the procedure and aligned it with another, more restrictive handling procedure. When I returned to the job, I was "trained" on this procedural update along with dozens of other updates I had missed in the summer of 2008 while recovering.

Fast forward again to that winter of 2009 and things are bad internally for the company (just like millions of others at that point). Sales are down, people are panicky and rumors are flying that staff reductions might happen. Then, despite never receiving a negative performance evaluation, never having been disciplined or informed of areas of concern I was given an ultimatium. I could move down from my manager position, take a pay grade adjustment and stay or I would be placed on a zero-tolerance policy where ANY mistake would be grounds for failure to meet an "improvement plan" and I would be fired. This was given to me on a Friday and I was to make a decision by Monday. I have 5 children and at time they ranged from 11 years old to barely 1 year old. Three of my kids were in diapers at the time. I was basically boxed into accepting the demotion or facing summary firing. To say I was shell-shocked would be a drastic understatement.

After I informed my then manager of my decision to not be at risk of unemployment and to accept the demotion (swallowing my pride and accepting a demotion to avoid risking my family's primary income and support), I was sent back to my office to begin transitioning out of the leadership role and into a lab spot once more (I started in the lab I was running in 2009 back in the summer of 1993, so it was already a traumatic experience).

Before I could ever even pack my office, I was once more summoned to a meeting with my manager, the plant superintendant and HR later the next day around noon. I did not find out about this roster of attendees until I arrived for the meeting. My manager then accused me of lying about the safety violation and implied that my failure to report the violation was a cover-up and he had lost faith in my ability to be trusted. As soon as those words were said I knew I wanted nothing to do with that man ever again - but the coward WALKED OUT, without allowing me to defend myself further, or explain that the safety oversight was partly due to my infirmity and partly due to my previous experience working against me as I did not recognize the higher standard that was applied to it as I had originally developed the process in the first place. It was a lack of thoroughness and I had violated a procedure that my training showed I had read, understood and acknowledged...legally, I had nothing to refute this with.

What happened next was the coup de gras. The plant superintendant and HR informed me that because of the manager's position, the offer to allow me to continue in a non-management role was no longer available. I was let go with 6 months severance, uncontested unemployment (no fault assigned) and an understanding that I would get the same 6 months to liquidate my stock options that had been granted in the 3 years previous and held some significant value. In the end, I was gone and all it took was a manager who had never personally liked me to cut me off at the knees. I later found out that it was suspected that the company needed to reduce salaried staff and was looking for ways to do it without lay-offs. I could never prove that - it was hearsay and undocumented, and never pursued it further because I was shell shocked and unemployed at the worst time to be seeking a job in the preceeding 75 years.

In the end, I ended up using the acrued salary/severance and stock options money to stay afloat long enough to find a new position with my current company (although my wife and I had a lot of traumatic times through the process - including a serious discussion about uprooting the family and moving across the country - which was pretty terrifying to consider in the midst of the spring of 2009), but we struggled through and rebuilt a new life. I lost touch with a lot of friends and associates for years afterward. In the end, it took me nearly 10 years to finally feel like I could emotionally invest in my work again, trust my environment and feel a connection to the company and staff without looking out for a second round of having the rug pulled out from under me. I have flourished in my new company role and have built a successful career while managing to land on my feet. I was extremely lucky; and I had the full support of my wife (which I can never full repay) and family to pull me along that year and in some dark spaces in between then and now.

I hope the OP's daughter is able to find that same level of luck and support. It is trite but true - sometimes you can do everything right, to the best of your abilities, and someone else will see an opening to cut you down. I know who I am, and how I treat people that work with and for me; and I carry that lesson with me every day.

Wishing your daughter a happy resolution and better landing place than may seem possible at first.

[Dan]

5. The real sad part is that HR will protect him, and allow him to do what he does

As long as he doesn’t expose the company to some liability.

I used to wonder when I was younger why some people would shoot up their companies, but the deck is so stacked against the workers - it reached a point where I understood the ‘whys’. Not all, but some.

[CentralMass]

34. HR no longer (if it ever did) exists to support or help the employee.

[Zeitghost]

67. HR

Is there to protect the company, full stop. Always has been, many will even admit it.

[Hestia]

102. When it was called Personnel, they 90% backed the employee - HR is a leftover from Raygun years when

the austerity nuts were let loose (with help from the Kraken) upon the US Psyche back in early to mid 1980s.

It's a point to think about when winning Unionization Rights - pull back on all anti-employee rules instead of making the Union do all the work. Not everyone has Personnel backgrounds that could really help in the employee fights/rights.
===

I know it doesn't help y'all for us to wax nostalgic when talking about how "things used to be," but there are precedents on what we talk about and could conceivably achieve once again. It's all this talk about "returning to normal" that is deflecting from conversations - it's the new Squirrel.

WTF wants to return to "normal?" Anti-employee rules & regs were normal, did y'all really like them then? All I can think about when I hear "normal" is a deeper dive into the Revenge of the Billionaires to get even more of what they want, rather than what is best for the employees and the country as a whole. I'm surprised that the billionaires haven't got a new tax cut. They made out like big dawgs on the covid funds, why not go for broke?

[Safety Dawg]

9. On behalf of Safety Managers

I just want to say that some people can be grade-A jerks, and that I'm so sorry for what happened to your daughter.

[SheltieLover]

11. So sorry this has happened to her

[modrepub]

12. If She Stayed

she probably would have been miserable.

Getting fired is never fun. It's like loosing a loved one, there's a mourning process. It's a shame that she was doing something she was good at and found some type of satisfaction at the end of the day.

It's OK to grieve and feel cheated. But she seems like a good worker and employee. I'm sure she will be able to find something else, hopefully soon and with the same type of pay and benefits. If she's not close to 50 she should still be generally employable.

My sympathies but also hoping for better days.

[nilram]

15. She sounds like a solid, competent person.

With remote technology, she could get a job coach from anywhere who could help polish up her résumé, coach her on her transferable skills, and do some practice interviews with, etc. It’s a rough blow, but her former company is now officially going down the tubes and it’s her chance to take her career up a notch. Good luck to her.

[Tomconroy]

16. Sometimes there things lead to a much better situation. Hoping

it works out for the best.

[hippywife]

17. Sorry, she's having to deal with this.

I was laid off years ago and never found a decent job to replace the one I had. Not that job, but at another, I worked for a national trucking company and was also really good at my job, customers very happy. I left on my own even though I enjoyed the actual work, but trucking companies are horrible places to work as a woman. Chock full of the worst sexists and misogynists because it's the type of work that attracts them.

It's hard and a punch in the gut, no doubt, but if I were her, I'd take the unemployment and severance (negotiate for a decent amount) and be happy to see the last of such a place. Down the road, she's going to look back and realize some of the things she tolerated for the job and feel relief that she's no longer working there.

Sending wishes that, with her wealth of experience, she'll find a much better place to work soon.

[Hav]

18. Usually these kind of things have negative consequences for companies

As long as you do your job, it shouldn't matter from where you do your work but those are stuck in the past somehow don't understand that.
It seems to me both your daughter and the other workers were content with the circumstances as remote working has its benefits and they were performing well. Employees usually aren't happy when good things are taken away for no real reason.

I get being angry about the shitty treatment but there isn't really much more to say than sorry except for the hope she'll find a better job soon.

[Desert grandma]

19. Sounds like a really terrible boss!

Maybe your daughter can file for unemployment and use the time to reevaluate her options. Sounds to me like this is might be a unique opportunity to find a better suited job. The way I understand it, there are many more jobs available than employees, and that applies not only to the lower paid positions. There is not much you can do except be supportive. She will find a better job. Losing a job due to downsizing or restructuring is not a flag on a resume. Best of luck to her!

[dameatball]

21. This sounds like a case of the new hatchet man needing to leave a few "bodies" somewhere to justify

his hiring. I doubt she will be the only one. A similar thing happened to me in 1986 and I was devastated. We had just had a child and money was already tight. It turned out to open a new door and it was a blessing to get out of there. Hopefully she will persevere and come out stronger and better off. It is important that she maintain self-esteem. Sometimes jobs just suck and bad people win.....for a while.
Nevertheless, I hope some legal DUers can also weigh in.

[2Gingersnaps]

24. Never understood this frame of mind.

Kicking people like dogs does NOT make them better employees. How much does such bad employee relations cost a company?

[Chicagogrl1]

25. So sorry this happened!

1) File unemployment ASAP. Can usually be done online.
2) Ask HR for a severance letter outlining the terms of termination, ie unpaid vacation, severance etc
3) Get letters of recommendation from superiors or customers. They will be helpful in her job search.
4) Get copies of performance appraisals from her HR file. Try to get a copy of everything in her file.
5) Try to use this as a learning experience. It has happened to all of us. She will find a better job.
Pm ne w/any questions as i have 25+ yrs in HR.

[jmbar2]

41. This advice is absolutely the best

I've been in the same situation and it was devastating. I wish that someone had given me the advice above.

Mine was a case of Christians taking over a department, getting rid of those they didn't approve of, and replacing them with folks from a Christian staffing company, owned by the new department manager!

I filed an EEOC claim. As soon as you do that, HR AND legal departments go into a frenzy, hunting for every possible piece of evidence to besmirch your character and performance. I lost the ability to file for unemployment, lost the case, lost an almost vested retirement, and could never use that experience on my resume again.

Bite the bullet. I happens to a lot of people. But fighting it may just make her a bigger target for corporate abuse.

Hugs to your daughter. It is very painful to go through this.

[uponit7771]

92. +1

[ancianita]

98. +1

[Pacifist Patriot]

107. Goodness, I would hope HR provided separation documentation!

Great advice.

And I would advise everyone to always request a copy of anything placed in your personnel file. Always, always, always keep a "shadow" file.

[LittleGirl]

109. Best advice. All of that. Do not give up until you have it all.

Thank you for sharing this list. Brilliant!

7000 post

[RANDYWILDMAN]

26. Sorry, good riddance though...

I know it's hard work to find another job, but your daughter is amazing and she can do much better.

[CrispyQ]

27. She should look for a new job & not try to save this one.

He's the problem, not her, but as long as he's there, she won't go anywhere. I hope she can get what she can from this company, unemployment, whatever, but run! Run as fast as you can from toxic work relationships, especially when it's the boss.

She has the skills. She'll land on her feet, I'm sure!

[ificandream]

28. So sorry for her.

I know what it feels like to be blindsided then laid off. It's not fun. Tell her to take some time for herself and with her husband. And to remember that she's still the same good person she was before this happened.

[MOMFUDSKI]

29. My son got fired about 18 months ago

and was a basket case. Got anti-depressants from the doc, saw a shrink, had a panic attack. I told him when a door slams a window opens which, at the time, was weak tea for him. He is now in a job he LOVES, is making more money than before, got lucky in having a fabulous woman shrink that helped him tremendously. I reminded him about door/window and he is a believer now. It is difficult now to comfort your daughter so just know she will find her way. SHE WILL. Check out the legalities though.

[gldstwmn]

30. He's a dinosaur. Administrators that think like him won't roam

the earth much longer. If she likes working from home she should find a company that is good with that. This will probably wind up being one of those blessings in disguise for her. I will also predict he doesn't last very long either.

[CentralMass]

35. Don't hold your breath.

[gldstwmn]

49. I've been in the work force for 44 years and am a keen reader of people.

The work force is completely different now. He can either evolve or get eaten. He fired this woman because she is a threat to him directly, wanted someone to do her job cheaper, couldn't control her or a combo of all of those things. I'll go further out on a limb and say this will cost the company more than it saves. Trucking has a multitude of issues right now and they think this is going to help? They might even be fattening up the bottom line for a sale. Regardless, the entire game has changed. People don't necessarily need to go to an office every day. What was once important to the Boomers and Gen X doesn't matter to the millenials. Only a weak manager manages through fear and control and those methods will ultimately fail them. Turnover and low morale hits companies hard. He'll be a distant memory a decade from now but they'll still be feeling the damages. I've seen these slice and dice types come and go. Their changes rarely stay in effect long term.

[CentralMass]

56. A decade from now what help the young lady losing her job.

[iemanja]

31. Unless she is in a union, there is no recourse

In MN, employers can figure you at will. I can't imagine that KS has better workers' protections.

That is, unless she could prove discrimination based on the fact she is a woman. That would take a lawsuit and a lot of proof.

[demigoddess]

33. worked for a guy like that once upon a time. He drove people he didn't like out of

the company, but eventually he drove his company into the ground. just because you own a business doesn't mean you are a businessman. Trump is a prime example.

[Busterscruggs]

36. Just awful

I hope she gets an even better job soon.

[oldsoftie]

37. She wouldn't have liked working for that prick anyway. Nows the time to find a BETTER job.

Don't waste money on a lawyer. Anyone can have a "rightsizing" (what my company called it when I was let go).
Maybe go over his head if she knows the top folks well & let them know just what they're getting with this guy

[llmart]

38. This happened to me years ago. Almost identical circumstances.

I had yearly performance reviews that were 4.0. At one meeting for my performance review my boss even said, "I know I'm supposed to find something that you could improve on, but in my opinion you walk on water." I was promoted 4 times in 7 years. I worked for a huge, multinational, billion dollar corporation. They were constantly reorganizing whenever a new CEO came aboard. I was completely blindsided when my boss called me in to tell me I was being let go. I went to the local EEOC office for assistance and the gentleman who took my case told me that as much as he agreed that I was wrongfully dismissed, their offices were completely backlogged with discrimination cases. He said the emotional drain, the amount of time it would take and the fact that I had to reserve my energies to finding another job, he would suggest we try to get them to settle. He started a complaint and after some very contentious back and forth with the headquarters HR people, they decided to offer me a settlement. I already knew that they had to approve unemployment since the dismissal was labeled a lay off, so with the severance pay, one year's unemployment (this was during the Bush Sr. depression of 1991.), plus a lump sum severance payment, I would be OK for a year.

I was young and had never been laid off in my life, so I was completely shocked. I figured I would strike back at them for the way the termination happened and was presented to me. But I can tell you now from a long distance out (I'm now retired and in my 70's and have a 35-year HR management background) that the stress that comes from fighting it isn't worth your emotional and physical health. There'll be other jobs and she'll land on her feet and look back one day and see that it probably was one of the best things for her. I ended up leaving the corporate world and having some of the most interesting jobs after that one.

Her pride is probably hurt, but we've all been through this at least once in our lives. She WILL find something eventually that's better.

[waterwatcher123]

39. It is unfair to say the least. Did they make her sign anything on the way out the door?

Without a union, there is nothing remotely fair about the employee - employer relationship. So, unless your daughter's firing can be opposed on the basis of gender discrimination (https://www.eeoc.gov/overview), then there are a couple of main avenues for action. One is to use every option available to expose the action. This means describing it fairly on social media and any place where such posts are permissible. Is there a website where she can review this company with regard to potential employees? If so, she should do it in a very matter-of-fact way so her integrity is beyond reproach. She could also go over the head of this efficiency expert and explain her position to the president of the company or its board. If there are investors who support the company, she could also contact them and let them know how this action impacted her and will likely impact the company and its desirability to investors and future employees (the company will not be pleased to have employees writing their funders). Any communication that has the potential to impact the company’s revenue stream will get their attention. This is not without some risk, of course. The company can threaten your daughter or whomever with a lawsuit themselves (slander, defamation, etc.). It is usually a bluff unless they can prove that she made demonstrably false statements that led to provable financial damages.

She can make it clear she might resort to legal action to enforce her rights too. It would be a good idea to do this after the state approves her unemployment compensation. She does not necessarily have to engage in a lengthy drawn out legal fight to get a better settlement. If her lawyer takes the first steps by contacting the company to describe their intentions, the company and its insurance company might start to think more creatively about a financial settlement. Your daughter's lawyer could interject something in a letter about discovery and how they plan to request all emails, written communications, phone records, etc (being exposed is a strong incentive to settlement). The company's insurance company will put on a big show about pushing back. But, they are not going to win if she stays strong and does not cave into their demands (easier said than done).

Because these employers rarely ever admit mistakes, she will likely need a new place of employment. However, she might feel better knowing she did not just take it quietly (not going to be a quiet victim).

[FrankTC]

40. A Mercy?

I don’t think there’s likely to be anything to be done legally. The unfairness is painful, and the new appreciation of vulnerability can be excruciating. What happened to your daughter is cruel but not uncommon in Amerika (and yet the working class votes Republican). But it might be a better outcome than staying and trying to please a boss who dislikes her and who maybe would work to undermine her at every step. And getting pushed out now, when the job market is hot, might be better than being worn down and getting pushed out later, when maybe the job market will be less auspicious. Best of luck to her. Maybe she can turn these events to her advantage,

[calimary]

44. Welcome to DU, FrankTC!

Indeed, I hope people are treated better where she lands.

[GreenEyedLefty]

42. I'm sorry to see this

I was fired in 2015. Long story short, it wasn't a good fit. I knew it, they knew it, and decided to put me out of my misery. They didn't contest my unemployment and during my firing my boss said future employers could call him and he would be happy to put in a good word for me.

I held him to his promise and he delivered when I was interviewing for my next job.

It was a blow to my pride but being fired was one of the best things that happened to me. It removed my fear of being fired. It helped me view myself differently as an employee. I also landed a couple of pretty good jobs since then.

I hope your daughter lands somewhere great.

[LoisB]

43. What a jerk move on the part of him and the company. I would bet half the farm that guy

will be gone within a year after having antagonized at least half the staff and created a hostile work environment. I'm sorry your daughter had to go through that but I'd say she's better off.

[radical noodle]

45. I doubt that she can do anything about it

In Kansas, as in other red states with employment at will, they can let her go under almost any circumstances. Since they've technically laid her off and are allowing her to collect unemployment compensation I doubt there's any recourse. She might be able to sue if she claimed discrimination but even that would be iffy. Even if she could find a way to get the job back, you can bet the "manager" would make her work life a living hell.

While I'm sure she doesn't see it now, getting away from this jerk is probably the best thing to happen to her. With jobs being created and unemployment low, she may easily find another (better) job with a nicer manager.

I've been in a similar situation with my own daughter and it ripped my heart out for her but in the end she came out much better. Hold onto hope.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

59. .

In Kansas, as in other red states with employment at will,

"At-will employment" is an understanding of federal employment law that means your employer can fire you for any reason other than being a member of a protected class, or unless you are covered by a contract. It has nothing to do with whether a state is "red" or "blue."

[Ms. Toad]

66. Actually, employment law is primarily state-based.

Some states are purely at-will. Others restrict it (at will during 1st 6 months), etc. There are exemptions in some places (implied contract, public policy, etc.)

It may also be federal employment law concept, but I'm much more familiar with it at the state level.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

68. Yes, employment law is primarily state-based.

But the concept of at-will employment -- meaning a person can be released from employment for any reason not covered by state or federal law or a contract (or an employee handbook that can be understood as a contract) -- is an understanding of the concept of employment at the federal level.

Others restrict it (at will during 1st 6 months), etc.

AFAIK, Montana was the only state that did this, and it's now extended to a year.

[Ms. Toad]

69. The concept of at-will employment is decided at the state level.

Nearly all states are at-will states.

From Ohio, specifically: https://www.ohiobar.org/public-resources/commonly-asked-law-questions-results/labor--employment/at-will-employment-is-the-rule-in-ohio/

Is Ohio the only “at will” state?
No. Almost every state in the United States considers employees to be “at will” unless the employment falls into an exception to the employment-at-will doctrine. The only state where "at will" is not the general rule is Montana, which has a law making it somewhat harder for employees to be terminated.

[radical noodle]

72. Yes... my bad

It's not just red states. I was wrong about that. Thanks!

[LisaM]

84. Most blue states are at will, too.

It's a disgrace.

[Hortensis]

46. Working remotely can decrease job security, giving advantage to

employees who work close to power each day, with those who make personnel decisions. and each other.

It may have not been a factor in this case, but as more people are able to make this decision, this is an obvious thread to point that out in.

I agree with those who suspect she likely would have been unhappy working under this man even if he liked her. His open dislike of remote working and desire for stronger control suggests authoritarian personality. I've worked for a couple of strongly authoritarian owners, and a need for excessive control of their employees is typically part of a package that includes lack of respect for (or fear of) their abilities, distrust, and a dark view of peple in general. Also dysfunctional, inefficient management due to excessive bad rules and constraints that defeat excellence can be constantly frustrating That can work nicely for authoritarian employees who dislike responsibility and decision making, but competent self-managers like her aren't suited to those environments.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

47. This is a layoff and she's getting unemployment. Not much you can do. Tell her to file ASAP.

[cadoman]

71. ++ shitheads gonna shithead, but there is a bright side to this

He didn't like her, but basically owned it, said why, and didn't play torturous passive aggressive games over many months to drive her out (crazy bosses will do this to not look like bad people).

Since it's a downsize she can get unemployment, which is great.

Now she gets to quickly move on with her life in an excellent job market. He gets the pleasure of wasting his time hiring a replacement for a productive employee in a tight market, while causing his other employees to start eyeing the exit because they see evidence that he doesn't treat people well.

Sometimes things have a way of working themselves out.

[slightlv]

48. I took early retirement about a year before Covid hit

Everything I did was via WiFi, whether I was in the office or remote. I am also disabled. During a rehab stint after a replaced hip, I kept notes on everything I did and proved how much more efficient and productive working remote actually turned out to be. However, when my supervisor retired, the new one was one who didn't like "conflict" and the department manager was one who, like your daughter's, didn't believe anyone whom he couldn't see wasn't really working. After 2 years and using up all leave, I decided to take early retirement and stop killing my body and emotions. I could have continued to fight on the basis of my disability... heck, if I'd stuck it out just one more year, -everyone- was working remote thanks to Covid, but I was really suffering physically and emotionally by that time.

It's not fair, and it's not right. And I'm in KS, as well. I've played the whole thing over in my mind so many times since then. Could I still sue them? Shoot... it was DoD... could I sue them at all? Your daughter's going to need your strength and support, cause she's going to have these same type of questions and even ill feelings for a long while roiling around in her head. Hopefully she can find another job that will bring her sweet justice for the one she lost. But don't be surprised at any bitter feelings that come out at strange moments. I've had to accept them from myself and just let them go, or let them eat me up from the inside out. Still, there are times I'd really like someone to backstab that supervisor who didn't have my back... just to give him a taste of how badly he hurt me. How in the world that man ever successfully led a group of men in war, I'll never understand. Maybe it's just women he had a problem with, as well.

We women DO seem to be a problem for a lot of men, don't we? (sigh)

[magicarpet]

50. Slim chance,....

Last edited Tue Feb 15, 2022, 09:44 PM - Edit history (1)

Florida is a “Right to Work” State
Many states, including Florida, have passed “right to work” laws. These laws do not mean you have a “right” to your job, it means you can be fired at any time for any reason, or no reason at all. At the same time, you have the “right” to quit at any time for any reason, or no reason at all. Politicians often like to give bad laws nice names to deceive the public.

The biggest consequence of “right to work” laws, is that states that passed them, such as Florida, do not recognize causes of action for wrongful termination, which was an employee’s right before the laws were passed. In short, “there is no action in Florida for the common law tort of wrongful termination.” Bass v. Metro Dade Cnty. Dept. of Corr. & Rehab., 798 So. 2d 835, 836 (Fla. 3d DCA 2001).

https://gulisanolaw.com/florida-is-a-right-to-work-state/

[WhiskeyGrinder]

58. You are conflating "right to work" with "at-will employment." "Right to work" is a state rule that

means you can benefit from collective bargaining contracts without paying union dues. "At-will employment" is an understanding of federal employment law that means your employer can fire you for any reason other than being a member of a protected class, or unless you are covered by a contract.

[hamsterjill]

51. Take the unemployment.

I was laid off in 2020 right before the pandemic by a supervisor who was a total Trumper and could tell I wasn’t because I didn’t cheer for him like she did. I refused to discuss politics in the office.

It seemed horrible at the time but it’s probably the best thing that ever happened to me. I’d never, in 45 years of work, been let go or had any supervisor criticize my work ethic. Being let go became a mind game and I had to rediscover my worth - both financially and emotionally.

She should take the unemployment and take a few weeks to get a good resume together and really think about what direction she wants to go. Then, ramp up and look nonstop until she finds something great. That’s the best payback!!! All the best to her!

[lonely bird]

52. I can feel her pain

I was terminated 2 days before my 64th birthday in 2020. My territory wasn’t “growing”. My territory was the Northeast which was ground zero for COVID.

Interesting thing was that I asked for a copy of my personnel file. Never got it. I think they wanted to get rid of me as I was older and had a good base salary. They gave me severance which I figured was the result of their taking PPP money.

[Rebl2]

53. Her husband

is part owner/operator of the same company. Would have thought he would have some say. Guess not.

[rustysgurl]

61. No ...

He is an owner/operator of a truck that drives for the company. He is not an owner/operator of any part of the company itself.

[Rebl2]

62. Oh. Okay.

[live love laugh]

54. Sadly assholes in the workforce hurt people.

I’m so sorry it was your daughter.

I will bet anything that as heartbroken as she is now, when this is all behind her she’ll see it was for the best.

They don’t deserve her.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

55. Severance in my experience

Has always been attached to a “I won’t sue” contract. If you don’t sign it, no severance.

[badhair77]

57. I'm sorry she has to go through this situation.

I firmly believe when one door closes a better one opens. I wish her the best.

Also, let’s hope karma hits him hard.

[mvd]

60. K&R

Sorry to hear this. Firings can suck. If my dad hadn’t lost his job when he did, things would have been different for the family. He had just gone all the way to Houston for the company. Like with your daughter, the firing seemed personal. It was during the Bush II years and he wasn’t the only one having trouble bringing in funding.

[Brainfodder]

63. Wife had similiar firing and my last job ended quite shitty too, a lot sounded very familiar!

As one door closes, another opens, good luck to her!

[Fla Dem]

64. She'd be better off to take the severance and vacation pay.

Than to try to fight it. Maybe try to negotiate a bit more severance, like 3 months plus vacation and tell them she’ll move on. Don’t kick and scream too much though because they may just take back what was already offered.

The employer really doesn’t need much of a reason to terminate employment.
Just saying they are reorganizing the department and she didn’t fit in with the new organization is reason enough. Plus they gave her separation. Unless she can prove some kind of discrimination, I really doubt she has much of a leg to stand on.

Drawing on my years as a HR manager.

As an aside. She’s probably better off away from the jerk she’d be working with. I think she’d be miserable.

[rustysgurl]

65. Thanks everyone

for your kind words and encouragement. I passed them on to her. She is already doing much of what was advised.

One thing I forgot to include. In January, after having been subjected his own special brand of toxicity in the workplace (in meetings and in front of other employees), my daughter went to HR and filed a complaint against him. She told them he was creating a hostile work environment. However, as far as she knows, nothing ever came of it.

Methinks this is retaliation.

She is making a list of bargaining "chips" for severance negotiations. As she put it, she's willing to go away, but it will be on her terms as much as possible.

[gldstwmn]

74. I'm pretty sure retaliation is actionable.

But I'm not a lawyer. I do know that companies I have worked for previously were very concerned with it. There must be a reason for that. It wouldn't hurt to look into it. Also be careful what rights are signed away with a severance agreement. I had to sign one that said I wouldn't disclose intellectual property which was laughable but I have heard that others had to sign away their right to collect unemployment.

[George II]

70. Can all of that be documented? Not sure what EEOC laws there are in Kansas, but there are a bunch...

...of questionable and/or illegal things said by them. If the state doesn't have the equivalent of EEOC, it could go straight to the Federal EEOC.

If she's over 40 she's in a "protected class" and they need a real reason for choosing her for downsizing if younger people in similar positions are retained.

Even though Kansas is a "right to fire" state, there are Federal laws, too.

I'm not a lawyer, but I was went through two layoffs for the same company. The first time we settled and I was brought back after 18 months with essentially full back pay because I was 44 at the time and they kept two younger people in the same job. Then about 2 years later they laid me off again and I got them on retaliation. We settled again. Both times it was the same butt-hole who did it, too.

It's well worth looking into, anyway. That is unless fighting it and eventually going the lawsuit route would jeopardize her husband's job there, too.

Good luck but don't punch the guy in the throat!!!

[WarGamer]

73. take the package and find a better job... hope she can find nicer bosses :)

[DFW]

75. This kind of thing seems to happen everywhere

My wife was in a similar situation. She is a social worker, and had a decades-long job with a Protestant Church-affiliated organization that trained the difficult-case unemployed (the ones that social services decided they couldn't handle) and tried to place them back in the workforce. Her boss was a corrupt asshole with church connections, and so was never fired, even when it was discovered that he was ordering workers with the necessary skills to do home improvements on his house without pay. He always had a lackey to do his dirty work for him, and they always ended up getting screwed by him, tossed out on their ear when he determined they knew too much.

But my wife and the woman who was her co-worker knew WAY too much, and he couldn't fire them without strong cause, which they never gave him. So, he mobbed them, sometimes using really crude tactics. One morning, my wife came to work to find her files had been deleted from her work computer--a perfect pretext for the obvious inefficiency charge he could use to fire her. Instead, at the meeting of the management, she just told them that her files had been removed, she knew by whom and why, and they were to be back on her computer by the end of work that day. They never expected her to take such a confrontational stance, and mumbled something about a programming error. The files WERE back by the end of the day. This guy arranged for money to be missing from petty cash, and then firing employees/trainees for suspected theft. He was always covered by his church connections. He never forgave my wife for having cancer in 2001, and being out for much of the year. When she needed a heavy thyroid operation in 2012, she and her co-worker used the occasion to take early retirement, demand a big settlement (they had a really good labor lawyer on call), and quit at age 60. She lost her health insurance, and I had to jump in and pay for her insurance until she turned 65 (no, Virginia, Germany does NOT have universal health care). She got a really drastic cancer when she was 64, so this saved us. Luckily, the expert cancer team saved her as well.

I contrast this with my situation during the Cheney-Bush recession. When things got tight, all the top-paid people in the company took a (voluntary) 50% pay cut except the two co-CEOs, who went down to a $1 per year salary for the duration. This way, all the lower-echelon employees kept their jobs AND their salaries. We fired nobody (we are about 500 people worldwide, more than 400 of them in Dallas). Needless to say, since we only hire whom we really like, we have a really low turnover. We have women who are department heads and men who are department heads. Since it is not a rarity either way, no one really gives it a thought one way or the other.

In short, you have to make the best of what you can find, where you can find it. My wife wanted to punch her "snake" boss right in the throat on so many occasions, I lost count. Despite what some internet armchair warriors might tell you, Europe isn't always a worker's paradise, and Texas isn't always a worker's hell. For the record, I've spent more time in Iceland than I've spent in Kansas, so I have no clue what it is like there.

[EndlessWire]

76. She sounds like an excellent employee.

Hard working, diligent, dedicated...

She should go and get the unemployment pronto. Just because he said he wouldn't dispute it, doesn't mean he won't. Also, she should review her employee file for what they really said about her. She should take a portable copier. They do make them very small nowadays. Very discreet. Then, she has to decide how to get a good reference from the company, and then start applying for other jobs. Maybe she could start her own company?

I agree with above. At-will employees are subject to discrimination, and it doesn't sound like anything provable occurred except discrimination against people who work from home. It also sounds like she called his bluff, but still didn't win. That's their decision to make.

Chin up, Baby Girl. One day this will all be in the distant past. You can make it. And, maybe the guy redoing the department will fire all the best people, and get fired himself for screwing it up.

It's also possible that this company is going under or going to be sold, and it's the best thing possible for your daughter. Have her get her unemployment.

[EndlessWire]

77. PS!

Just short of 5 years? Isn't 5 years the benchmark for being vested in a company? How close was she to that mark? That might be something to think about. I would research that, and gather all the necessary documents. Start following that paper trail.

I worked for a hospital for 8 years, was vested in the company insurance plan, and now receive a small but much appreciated annuity.

Here in California, also an at-will state, there were two OR nurses who were going to receive retirement benefits within two years, if I remember correctly. They were fired for no reason, and they sued. They won in court, and received additional funds, shall we say.

You never know until you run it by an attorney. Get the unemployment, then find out if there is anything else she can do. Examine her paperwork that she signed when she was hired. I don't want to be someone who stirs up unnecessary fretting and trouble, but she should calm down and see what's there. Maybe they have something secret going on, and they let her go before she became vested with a future benefit. Employers do stuff like that.

[EndlessWire]

79. PPS!

"He said she wasn't being fired "for cause," they wouldn't dispute unemployment and would give her severance and paid vacation."

I am not at all impressed with that. First off all, she got laid off, if she can prove his remark about not firing her "for cause." (That's why they may say something different to Unemployment, and the reason that she should review her file.) They can't do a thing about that. That's not a gift to her. It's not a company benefit they are extending to her. It's hers. If anything, it sounds threatening!

Second of all, the paid vacation is probably vacation time that she has already earned, and they have to pay it to her anyway as an accrued benefit. Third, what does she have to sign to get the severance pay? Be careful! If they lie to her about anything, it could be a case of fraud, actionable for a long time after she discovers it. Have her make absolutely sure of what she wants. Maybe she doesn't want anything done, maybe the money is a lot (I'll bet it isn't.) Is anyone else getting severance pay? Can she find out? What are their circumstances?

Stuff like this just pisses me off. Get an attorney to review her situation, if she is so inclined. Use the unemployment money to pay for him/her. Good luck. It's not the end of the world.

[Texin]

81. Did they 'downsize' the department or just her?

She may have a case for some action if they replaced her with a male or someone younger than she.

[uponit7771]

93. +1, especially if most of the job duties were kept and handed off to a single person

[rustysgurl]

96. Since they just posted her job on their website

it sounds like the "downsizing your department" reason was b.s.

[pandr32]

82. I am so sorry

It seems to me working remotely may be the future. At least in positions that can be effectively done that way.

[mrsadm]

83. Sorry but this is, for the most part, the way employment works in the U.S.

Except for discrimination for disability and a few other federally protected reasons, an employer can fire an employee for any reason or no reason at all. I've seen this happen in every state for many years, with IBM getting rid of US employees while hiring in India and China. Everyone thinks they can get a lawyer and fight it. Move on and get another job.

[wendyb-NC]

88. What a nightmare

[1WorldHope]

95. People suck

This happened to me. I thought I'd keep the job till I retired. I loved the job and was born to do it. Had been there 10 years with glowing reviews. The company got a big contract with big bucks and lawyers. The big man decided to clean house and got rid of all long time employees. It killed me at the time. But in the end getting away from that newly toxic environment was the best thing that could have happened. She will find something better. It's a workers world right now. Keep the faith.

[Jimbo S]

97. Think long and hard about suing

1. You have to prove your case.
2. The settlement may not be all that much.
3. She risks being blacklisted. This is the information age.

[ancianita]

99. I'm sorry for your daughter.

I wish her the best ahead in the job market.

[musclecar6]

101. Back in the day

I was a union leader at my company. To sum up my thoughts, if you’re not covered by a union contract or an individual contract, when this shit starts. you’re gonna get fucked. It’s just how badly it turns out and sometimes it’s better not to fight it and sometimes it is. Just depends. Either way you’re gonna wind up on the short end of the stick to some degree typically.

I agree with Joe. We need strong unions to balance out these bastards in corporate america.

[BlackSkimmer]

104. Awful, but she's probably best out of it.

Who wants to work for snakes.

[Pacifist Patriot]

105. Senior HR Professional here...

and prepared to get trashed because the only corporate department people misunderstand and crap on more may be IT. But usually HR.

First of all, the way the company is handling this is complete shit and I would never allow that in any company I have worked for in an HR role. We have to straddle the line between employee advocate and legal compliance, i.e. risk management to protect the company. Oddly enough, that actually allows us to advocate for employees way more often than employees realize. We're also in the position that knows full well the better you treat your employees the more profitable you are likely to be. I routinely push for higher pay, more benefits, cooler perquisites, better working conditions, development opportunities, etc. when I am generally regarded as the language police. Funny considering I can drop more F bombs than a sailor and love a good salty joke...in the right place and time.

That personnel office people wax nostalgic about absolutely did not advocate for employees in any way. They were paper pushers and not much more.

That being said, she may not have much recourse...unless.

An employment at will state means your employer can fire you for any non-discriminatory and/or non-retaliatory reason. In other words, it doesn't have to be for cause, but they cannot fire for an illegal reason. If she feels she has been discriminated against or retaliated against (expressed a complaint of some kind), she should contact an attorney. If that doesn't apply, she may not have much solace other than to know she is free of a toxic employer.

Feel free to DM me with any additional questions. I'm not an expert on KS employment law, but am happy to see if I can help in any way.

[The Jungle 1]

108. Find a new job and take as many coworkers as you can.