Stop calling it "The Ukraine"

[ColinC]

The country is called "Ukraine," not "the Ukraine"

Thanks

[themaguffin]

1. Yes, thank you.

[USALiberal]

2. Lol, that is the least of my worries!!! Nt

[multigraincracker]

3. Language.

Here we go to the hospital, in England they go to hospital.

[Ocelot II]

7. It's more than that in this case.

“Ukraine is a country,” says William Taylor, who served as the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine from 2006 to 2009. “The Ukraine is the way the Russians referred to that part of the country during Soviet times … Now that it is a country, a nation, and a recognized state, it is just Ukraine. And it is incorrect to refer to the Ukraine, even though a lot of people do it.”

https://time.com/12597/the-ukraine-or-ukraine/

[multigraincracker]

8. In that case, we will send those folks to

the Russia.
Thanks.

[Cha]

42. Super Interesting.. TY!

[Ms. Toad]

49. I think it's common with countries which start with "U"

We're traveling to the UK, the United States, the Ukraine, etc. It just sounds weird without "the," in the same way "going to hospital" sounds weird to me.

[TheBlackAdder]

4. Yep, 'The Ukraine' is a Russian talking point.

[bucolic_frolic]

5. It's a legacy name that stuck and change is hard when long entrenched. /nt

[SoonerPride]

6. You are not boss of me

Also you are not the boss of me

[USALiberal]

9. +1000

[W_HAMILTON]

44. So, you choose to amplify Soviet propaganda?

Because calling it "the Ukraine" is doing just that.

[Oneironaut]

10. Imo, "the" is typically used as a prefix to a region.

Ukraine is a country rather than a region, so, “the Ukraine” sounds a bit wrong.

We go to “The Caribbean.” We don’t go to “The Cuba.” However, there are exceptions, such as “The Dominican Republic.” Also, we use “The United States.” “I am going to United States” sounds weird (probably because states is plural). English is weird.

[lagomorph777]

11. That is exactly why Putin calls it "the Ukraine." He considers it a REGION of Russia.

He uses language the way Reptilians do in the US, to manipulate and frame the discussion.

When we call it "the Ukraine" we are tacitly implying that it's just a region, not a nation, and we're helping Putin.

[Ocelot II]

14. "The Ukraine" is what it was called when it was a region in the USSR.

It is no longer a region; it's a country. "The Ukraine" is basically Russian propaganda.

[TheRealNorth]

26. I am kind of sick of the everyone and the media...

Failing to mention Russian involvement in Ukraine goes back much farther then the USSR (or is it just "USSR&quot . Ukraine had been part of Tsarist Russia for at least 200 years prior to the Bolsheviks, and had been fought over and been divided between Russia, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Ottoman Empire, and the Crimean Khanate and the Golden Horde for the past 700 years.

In some ways, Ukraine is similar to Yugoslavia and some of the other countries that were created at the end of WW I. Only except that it's independence was short-lived.

While I think we need to defend Ukraine against Russia, it kind of pisses me off that people refuse to acknowledge that had we not supported a coup in Ukraine, we probably wouldn't be in this mess.

[mathematic]

27. Ukraine is like Yugoslavia must be the new talking point now that Russia has invaded.

I can't wait to see it spread throughout the internet.

What next, deny that Greeks are a people because they were part of Rome then Byzantium then the Ottoman Empire?

[DFW]

37. And of course, no one says they're going to "The Netherlands."

Or to The Hague, once they make it there.

[PoliticAverse]

12. Ukraine or the Ukraine...

Why do some country names have 'the'?
http://bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844

[Polybius]

48. Why does The Bronx?

Is it wrong to just say Bronx?

[PoliticAverse]

50. It's "The Bronx" unless being used as an adjective...

Like:
Bronx Borough President

I'm going to Queens.
I'm going to Manhattan.
I'm going to Brooklyn
I'm going to Staten Island
I'm going to the Bronx.

Adjective:
I went to a new Bronx restaurant.

Noun:
I went to a new restaurant in the Bronx.

[Polybius]

51. But why is it ever "The" Bronx?

Why isn't it ever Im going to The Staten Island?

[PoliticAverse]

52. Because it was the Bronx river... which got shortened to just "The Bronx"..

NYC rivers have 'the'.
The Harlem river.
The East River.
The Hudson river.

Why is it called "The Bronx'...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/why-is-it-called-the-bronx-instead-of-just-bronx/ar-AAQcwuY

[Sneederbunk]

13. Peiping, Peking, Beijing.

[BlackSkimmer]

15. Thank you. And good luck.

I’ve pointed that out a number of times, and it seems many prefer to use Putin’s terminology.

[SharonClark]

16. Been "Ukraine" since 1991 when Ukraine left the Soviet Union

Why is Ukraine called the Ukraine?
It was used for the middle Dnieper territory controlled by the Cossacks. The people of Ukraina were called Ukrainians (українці, ukrayintsi, or українники, ukrayinnyky). Later, the term Ukraine was used for the Hetmanate lands on both sides of the Dnieper although it didn't become the official name of the state.

I graduated university in 1975 with a minor in Russian History and language. It took me a while to drop the "the" after 1991.

[BlackSkimmer]

18. But despite that long period of time, some here seem unwilling, or unable, to make the switch.

Very odd.

[Wounded Bear]

17. "The Ukraine" is the Russian version of "Democrat Party"...

Think of it that way. Ukrainians think of it as an insult. So do Russians.

[msfiddlestix]

19. I gotta ask: Who the hell says "The" Ukraine?

I haven't heard that reference. Guess cuz I don't watch Cable News?

[BlackSkimmer]

36. Plenty of people here. I see it everyday, hence the OP.

Putin and trump say it that way too.

Makes me wonder about those here who somehow can’t wrap their head around the correct appellation.

[msfiddlestix]

39. Apparently I've managed to miss these occurrences...

I do know that I've mispronounced Kyiv (not Kiev)... because our media taught me incorrectly. Now having learned from actual Ukrainian, how we've pronounced and spelled the name was from Russian linguistic orientation.

But I've missed "THE Ukraine" .... seems quite Putinesque.

[Paladin]

20. I dropped the "The" from "Ukraine" some time ago.

I'm hanging tough on the pronunciation of "Kiev, " however. It remains "Kee-EHEV," rather than "Keev." I first heard Mussorgsky's "Great Great Gate At Kiev" over 60 years ago, from his marvelous "Pictures At An Exhibition." It remains one of my favorite pieces of classical music, and I'm sticking with the pronunciation of the city as I originally heard it. Subject to future political developments.

[RobinA]

28. So Which Is Correct?

I never heard of Keev until this current situation. I have always heard Kee-ehev and have always used that, thinking it was correct. I didn’t even realize what Keev was until about the third time I heard it.

Jeesh, I’m barely recovered from learning to say Omicron instead of Omnicron.

[Paladin]

32. Supposedly: "Kee-ehev" is how Russians say it, "Keev" is the Ukrainian pronunciation.

If Ukraine becomes our next Vietnam, I may have to re-evaluate things.

[Raine]

43. Oh thanks, that makes sense. When I was in college I took a class

the History of Russia and the USSR and the teacher stressed pronouncing Russian names correctly. Kiev was pronounced Kee-ehev, he was very exacting about it. That was Russian though so I see Ukrainian's have a different spelling and pronunciation.

[Tommy Carcetti]

35. I think "Keev" is the majority pronunciation these days.

When I visited in 2019, I remember the first thing our local tour guide said to us: "Welcome to Keev!"

However, some of my relatives have an alternate pronunciation, which is rather unorthodox (no pun intended). It's more akin to "Key-you" and dispenses with the "v" sound altogether.

Also, as to the city of Lviv in the west of Ukraine, it's not "La-viv" as you might think, but more like "Le-view."

Kharkiv in the east has a silent "K" and is "Hark-you."

[msfiddlestix]

40. Ukrainian would beg to differ I've read.....

Ukrainian language preferred when it comes to the spelling and pronunciation :

Kyiv spelling (not Kiev) pronounced Keeve.

Its goal is to persuade English-language media and organizations to exclusively use Kyiv (derived from the Ukrainian language name) instead of Kiev (derived from the Russian language name) as the one true name of the Ukrainian capital. It is a part of the wider campaign "CorrectUA".

Link:

KyivNotKiev

[sarisataka]

21. Using the definite article

Ukraine is one of a few English country names traditionally used with the definite article the.[1] Use of the article was standard before Ukrainian independence, but has decreased since the 1990s.[2][3][30] For example, the Associated Press dropped the article "the" on 3 December 1991.[3] Use of the definite article was seen as suggesting a non-sovereign territory, much like "the Lebanon" referred to the region before its independence, or as one might refer to "the Midwest", a region of the United States.[31][32][33]

In 1993 the Ukrainian government explicitly requested that, in linguistic agreement with countries and not regions,[34] the Russian preposition в be used instead of на,[35] and in 2012 the Ukrainian embassy in London further clarified that it is politically and grammatically incorrect to use a definite article with Ukraine.[1] Use of Ukraine without the definite article has since become commonplace in journalism and diplomacy

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine#:~:text=The%20use%20of%20%22the%20Ukraine,no%20official%20alternative%20long%20name.

Putin continues to refer to it as "the" Ukraine as a reminder that he does not consider Ukraine a "real country". He is indicating it is a region of Russia.

[cachukis]

22. And a Ukraine I chatted with some years ago

insisted he was Ukraine, not Ukranian. That was imposed, again, as a pejorative.
He was my cousin's beau, and exhibited tremendous pride in his heritage, especially free from the SSR delineation.

[Coventina]

23. Seems we have a few defenders of deadnaming here....

[BlackSkimmer]

31. Or people simply don't mind if they appear ignorant.

Strange, but there it is.

[Firestorm49]

24. Have another cup of coffee.

[ColinC]

30. Coffee gives me indigestion

[NightWatcher]

25. I thought everyone had already gotten that memo. I'm not hearing it too often.

[Stinky The Clown]

29. Thank you

[The Revolution]

33. Interestingly, Ukrainian and Russian

don't even have definite articles as far as I know. So it's an issue of what the country is called in a non-native language.

I wonder if there are any languages that require definite articles for country names. I know Spanish uses them in places we don't in English (el Señor Garcia, for example).

I've always wondered why languages often call countries by different names than the natives do. We say Germany (from Latin Germania) instead of Deutschland, but English is a Germanic language and its own country of origin is called 'England', which obviously got its name the same way 'Deutschland' did

[DFW]

38. Quite correct! FINALLY!

No one can know what is "correct" or not because Slavic languages DON'T HAVE ARTICLES. In most cases, translators are left to figure from context. In German, for example MANY countries are named with a definite article. Turkey is "Die Türkei," Switzerland is "Die Schweiz," and the Czech republic is "Die Tschechei." Not to mention "Die Ukraine," which is used by our resident Ukrainian friend when he discusses his homeland with my wife (his German is excellent). French goes even further with Le Luxembourg, L'Espagne, l'Allemagne, La Russie, le Finlande, etc etc (not to mention La France).

The very name means "out of (У the edge (of the national territory)," the edge (Край being the Russian border. Україна in Ukrainian, Украина in Russian. "The" is in the ear of the listener, so to speak. "I am the walrus" in Russian would be "I Walrus" because they have no articles or present tense of the verb "to be." If you want to get technical, go check with Moose and Squirrel.

[The Revolution]

34. Could blame Seinfeld

This is what I think of when I hear 'the Ukraine'. The Ukrainian man uses the correct term though . Maybe since his English grammar is a little off (dropping the indefinite article), people thought that was incorrect?

[Cha]

41. I read that on DU a long tme

ago.. I haven't seen that being said but, of course, I don't read every post or even close to it.

But, yeah.. TY

ETA~ I don't even know where it started.. the wrong way to say it.

[Patton French]

45. It's a pre-independence thing.

The Ukraine region of the USSR. Old naming conventions die hard.

[Vinca]

46. It always amazes me to see posts like this. A democratic country is on the verge

of a brutal invasion and, apparently, the problem is the word "the." That part of the world has been sliced and diced so many times, many think of it as a region, thus "the."

[ColinC]

53. Given everything you said, the least we can do is call them by the correct name.

Ukraine is no longer a region of the USSR. It has been it's own sovereign country for nearly 30 years.

[Vinca]

54. If that's all we can do, it's pretty damn pathetic. My point is to fret about what's important.

[ColinC]

55. The least we can do is just a start

Not all we can do

I'm only asking for a modicum of respect for a country going through a crisis. Sure there is more that can be done, but showing some respect goes further than so many might realize.

[Vinca]

56. Why would you think anyone who refers to "the Ukraine" does not respect the country.

Good lord . . . get a grip.

[ColinC]

57. Calling somebody by the wrong name is disrespectful

Calling a country by the wrong name is disrespectful. It baffles me so many people cannot comprehend this simple fact.

[ColinC]

59. I should say the same thing to you

Getting bent out of shape because most people don't want us to refer to a country by the wrong name. It is too bad.

[Hortensis]

47. tRump called it The Ukraine yesterday while praising Putin's "sheer genius"

and suggesting we could use his "peacekeeping" tactic to grab a chunk of Mexico.

Amusingly, he corrected himself immediately, so obviously his staff have made some progress over the years in getting him to drop the "The."