US, Russia and Britain promised Ukraine security

[boston bean]

in 1994 if they gave up their nuclear arsenal. Russia promised to never invade.

The Budapest Memorandum. Seems it was just a slip of paper.

[dalton99a]

1. Yep. Putin declared it null and void

[boston bean]

2. Sort of like the Treaty of Versailles.

[PortTack]

3. And we promised...so much for that

[boston bean]

4. We did. I am not sure sanctions

And arms shipments are sufficient.

We cannot let this man take Ukraine. He will not stop.

[Claustrum]

7. I am generally anti-war.

But this time, it's different. This isn't just a Russia/Ukraine conflict. China is basically cheering Russia on (not joining in on sanctions) because they see Russia's invasion of Ukraine as an example for their ambition to take over Taiwan.

Putin is fully aware of what the west would do (sanctions) and he is fully prepared to weather it out for the short term. These sanctions aren't enough to stop Putin from finishing his invasion.

[Voltaire2]

11. So what do you suggest we do?

[boston bean]

12. I don't know for sure. But I think maybe we

Should send the expertise and weapons systems to combat them.

That would include a contingent of troops. Is Putin gonna nuke us? Doubtful.

[gab13by13]

13. Actually Putin just said he is considering using nuclear weapons against the west.

Putin and Trump are both mentally ill.

[Ghost Dog]

16. Have a link for that?

I'm informed that both the USA and Russia have officially promulgated "first strike" nuclear doctrine in recent years...

[KS Toronado]

21. Putin will ignore any agreement or doctrine he doesn't like

by flushing it, probably where IQ4.5 learned it.

[boston bean]

17. Welp. You gotta trust Putin stops at Ukraine.

When he doesn’t what do you think happens.

Are we prolonging an inevitable? I don’t know. Options are not good.

I don’t think he stops.

[Bettie]

36. I don't think he stops either

I guess we'll see.

[world wide wally]

31. Who would he bomb?

The USA, France, England?
He is fucking surrounded no matter how you slice it.

[Voltaire2]

15. So your suggestion is to strand some of our soldiers

in a region where we cannot support them as they get slaughtered by an overwhelmingly superior Russian force that has no logistical support issues?

Is the idea to escalate from there? To put us into a political position where we have no other options besides escalation!

[boston bean]

18. No.

How are we going to stop him? You give me your ideas.

[Voltaire2]

19. The reality is we cannot do much about Ukraine.

That is difficult for lots of people to accept.

[boston bean]

20. Are you 100% sure he stops there?

Cause he wants all territories of the former USSR.

What do we do then?

[Voltaire2]

34. No, nor did I say that.

What I am saying is that we would have a very difficult time in a military encounter against Russia in Ukraine. Just about all the factors that matter are against us. We might very well end up in a military confrontation but we should do that where the situation is not so starkly disadvantageous.

[KS Toronado]

22. I see NATO declaring war on Russia within a couple weeks.

And we are a member.

[sarisataka]

24. Why would NATO declare war?

For that matter can "NATO" declare war?

Ukraine is not a NATO member. As long as Russia stops at the border there is no casus belli

[boston bean]

28. Wait and see what he does.

He’s a fucking lunatic. He wants all of former USSR.

[sarisataka]

29. I could see him testing NATO

By putting pressure on the Baltics. I don't think he or the Russian military are ready to face NATO.

This will be a good opportunity for Russia to improve its forces with the lessons they are learning in Ukraine

[KS Toronado]

32. You are correct "NATO" would never declare war

It's in their charter, but there has been some discussion that because Ukraine has applied to be a member and
has been approved by a majority of members, they will be deciding whether they have a responsibly to
come to Ukraine's aid. Plus I'll bet these are going on behind closed doors. Read about this last week
somewhere here on DU.

People normally don't stand by and watch their neighbors killed, especially when they believe they may be next.
Is basically what I read somewhere here.

[Pantagruel]

5. Agree

Trump tore up the Iran deal.This is what happens when countries change leadership.
Not sure why International agreements are even negotiated, you simply can't rely on them.

[thucythucy]

6. They are made under the assumption that sanity will prevail

and that leaders--especially elected leaders--will honor commitments entered into freely.

The problem arises when you have people in positions of authority who are willing to break any and all accepted norms: Hitler, Stalin, Putin... We had a taste of that with Trump, when we discovered that so many "guard rails" we took for granted are pretty much unenforceable in the face of someone willing to flout them.

Which is why holding Trump and his enablers accountable is vital to the survival of our democracy.

[Claustrum]

8. You forgot to add Trump in your list of "leaders" willing to break accepted norm.

Putin and Xi saw how fragile these "agreements" are under Trump. They no longer fear the west or UN because of election of Trump.

[thucythucy]

9. Trump is in there.

And yes, Trump's "election" and his maladministration have done decades' worth of damage to the credibility of our commitments and our standing in the world.

[Justice matters.]

10. That's why the orange Capone MUST be charged for his crimes (we all saw!)

But, but, but... unfortunately, it seems Eliot Ness is dead and forgotten...

"Never Forget" has been forgotten by the US oligarchs...

[William769]

23. I was just thinking about that this morning.

I am not happy with the actions of the U.S. so far.

Seems like a lot of people have forgotten WWII.

When they finally come for you, who will be there?

[boston bean]

27. Never forget has been forgotten.

[sarisataka]

25. That memo was crumpled

In 2014 and burned weeks ago

[The Mouth]

26. "Peace in our time"

[lindysalsagal]

30. Vlad benefits from too many Ukrainians with Russian loyalties

They are now paying for their ambivalence. Gonna hafta choose now.

[llashram]

33. Chamberlain

and his "slip of paper" comes to mind... And millions still died.

[Voltaire2]

35. At the time it was the right decision.

I know that is not the popular version of the Sudetenland crisis. It bought time, there was zero chance of saving Czechoslovakia, or Poland for that matter. Britain needed that time to get ready for war.

[llashram]

37. if you say so