How many here are familiar with the Holodomor?

[smirkymonkey]

I only became aware of it recently and it was hid from the world for many years and would probably have never been uncovered if not for the brave journalism of Welshman Gareth Jones (and to some extent Malcolm Muggeridge and others who assisted his work).

Many Western journalists were aware of it and still tried to cover it up because of their Communist/Socialist sympathies. Jones was kidnapped, and eventually murdered while he was on another "fact-finding mission" in the Far East at the age of 29.

Anyway, it was basically a holocaust of system starvation of the Ukrainian people by Stalin and the Russians in the name of collective farming, and millions of Ukrainians died horrible deaths over the period of about 12 months or perhaps a little more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Jones_(journalist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

"The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомо́р, romanized: Holodomor, 'to kill by starvation' also known as the Terror-Famine or the Great Famine, was a famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. It was a large part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–1933. The term Holodomor emphasises the famine's man-made and allegedly intentional aspects such as rejection of outside aid, confiscation of all household foodstuffs and restriction of population movement. As part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–1933 which affected the major grain-producing areas of the country, millions of inhabitants of Ukraine, the majority of whom were ethnic Ukrainians, died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine.Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by Ukraine and 15 other countries as a genocide of the Ukrainian people carried out by the Soviet government.

Early estimates of the death toll by scholars and government officials varied greatly. A United Nations joint statement signed by 25 countries in 2003 declared that 7–10 million perished. Current scholarship estimates a range of 4 to 7 million victims, with more precise estimates ranging from 3.3 to 5 million. According to the findings of the Court of Appeal of Kyiv in 2010, the demographic losses due to the famine amounted to 10 million, with 3.9 million direct famine deaths, and a further 6.1 million birth deficits." [more at link]

This is not the first time the Russian Government has tried to destroy the Ukrainian people. I know it's not current events, but I thought it was interesting as I was reading up on Russian/Ukrainian history and thought it might interest people to know about it.

[SheltieLover]

1. Kicking for visability

[Joinfortmill]

2. Thank you.

I'm sure it's a part of Putin's fever dream regarding Ukraine. May he rot in hell.

[MLAA]

3. Thank you, I had never heard of this before.

[smirkymonkey]

5. There was a very concerted effort to keep the truth from the rest of the world

or to play it down as simply malnutrition and "crop failure", a bit like the English tried to downplay their part in the Irish potato famine, except this was a bit worse. The Irish were at least allowed to emigrate. The Ukrainians were trapped.

[ymetca]

4. Indeed

There is a great deal human misery still to be unearthed from behind the old Iron Curtain. A lot of secrets still lie in those rusty ruins.

[smirkymonkey]

9. I also discovered the history of the Circassian genocide during the mid-19th

century (Russo-Circassian war) which was absolutely brutal, as most genocides are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide and of course the pogroms against the Jewish population, among other civil massacres.

[Wounded Bear]

6. Name is new to me, but I knew about Stalin starving the Ukranians for a long time...

It is well reported in history books.

[Hekate]

7. I know about it, & have mentioned it here from time to time, just not by that name

Thanks for bringing it up.

[Tumbulu]

8. Anyone who studied agriculture knows all about it

Back in the ‘70’s in any soils or crop science classes we all learned with horror about this “Collectivization” of agriculture that the Soviets imposed upon the Ukrainians causing far more than 5 million deaths. Back in the ‘70’s we heard about these collectives being forced to go and plant grain on rainy days- it was the schedule!!!!- and then the tractor would get stuck in the mud, the soil compacted and ruined ( this takes decades if ever to remedy) and the precious planting seeds killed due to becoming wet prior to planting.

And the Ukrainians pride themselves as the people who domesticated the hard wheats ( these are distinct from the wheats domesticated in the Fertile Crescent that are classified as soft white wheats unable to be grown in climates that have summer rains and freezing winters). So the descendants of the very people who domesticated the wheat itself were forced by the Soviets to do everything the utterly wrong way. Millions starved to death. The actual farmers were shot or sent to Siberia, the few that survived? Any idea how they feel about Soviet style authoritarianism?

[electric_blue68]

39. I've heard of it. And TY for going into further details of this...

from your shorter previous post about a main reason the agri collectivism and schedules to be maintained didn't work; seeds, rain, mud, stuck tractors, messed up seeds, compacted ruined soil from the verdant "black gold" that it had been.

I wondered what the difference was between hard, and soft wheats. I've heard of her terms for a long time.

[Tumbulu]

43. It took me growing wheat

and playing a part in reviving the heirloom white wheat ( it looks golden to me) named Sonora to understand what the differences are. The hard red wheats have tannins on the surface of the seeds which protect the seeds from moisture- and thus sprouting in the field prior to harvest if rained upon during the summer. These bitter tannins are most responsible for the things many people do not like about “whole wheat”. And when they invented the roller mills in the 1890’s the bitter seed coat issue was solved. And the bran and germ got separated from the main part used. Many of us who worked to revive heirloom wheat turned to the so called white wheats ( that do not have these protective surface tannins) for whole grain milling. No bitter tannins. But they tend to not have enough protein to produce the sorts of breads people like. I’ve learned so many interesting things on this journey of growing them. There are many traditional ways of removing the surface compounds of the hard red wheats. Without removing the health benefits of the whole grain.

[electric_blue68]

45. Ah, interesting, so...

the tannins that protect the seed during the cold & wet of winter...when it gets warm enough steadily in the Spring then they sprout.

Oh, the tannins... So that's why.
In Forrest survival tips they say to keep your health up when lost in the forest make a tea of pine needles for the super amount of Vit C. Beware it will taste terrible bc of the tannins!

Interesting about the breads.

Good to know there are traditional methods for removing the tannins w/o losing the important stuff.

[Igel]

49. Decades ago when I was in college I learned a quick way of making breakfast.

Take a half cup (perhaps more) winter (red) wheat.

Put it in a thermos.

Put in a tablespoon of honey. Buckwheat's good. Orange blossom or clover ... eh.

Fill thermos with boiling water. Close quickly.

Get up in morning. Dump stuff into thermos lid and eat. Yum.

Notice, all you need is winter wheat, a thermos, honey, water, and some way of boiling the water.

Quantities of wheat and water (and honey) vary by size of thermos and by how much liquid you want on your plump, softened, cooked wheat berries.

That was when I was 19. I'm 63. Still have the thermos.

[Tumbulu]

50. Wow- what a good system!

I’m going to try it. But I only have the soft white wheat that I grow. I farm in a Mediterranean climate. It might work, it might not. But worth a try- thanks again.

[UpInArms]

10. I remember reading of the pogroms

When I was young … probably in the late 1960s

https://www.history.com/topics/russia/pogroms

Pogrom is a Russian word which, when directly translated, means “to wreak havoc.” Pogroms typically describe violence by Russian authorities against Jewish people, particularly officially-mandated slaughter, though the word has been extended to the massacres of other groups as well. A result of widespread and longterm anti-Semitism, Jewish people became the scapegoat for the misfortunes of others, or were blamed for violent or political acts.

RUSSIAN POGROMS BEGIN

Pogrom came into frequent use as a term around 1881 after anti-Semitic violence erupted following the assassination of Czar Alexander II.

Anti-Jewish groups claimed the government had approved reprisals against Jews. The first violence broke out in Yelizavetgrad, Ukraine, and then spread to 30 other towns, including Kiev.

During Christmas of the same year, Russia-controlled Warsaw, Poland, exploded in violence that resulted in the death of two Jews. The stampede deaths of 29 people after a church fire was falsely blamed on Jewish pickpockets.

Murderous outbreaks against Jews continued through 1884 in Belorussia, Lithuania, Rostov and Yekaterinoslav. Nizhni Novgorod hosted the final Russian pogrom of this period, resulting in the death of nine Jews.

… snip …

For three days in 1919, during the Ukraine Civil War, Cossacks in Proskurov murdered 1,500 Jews. Their leader, Ivan Samosenko, was executed for war crimes.

During the Polish-Soviet War, Polish soldiers executed 35 Jews suspected of being Bolsheviks. Three pogroms in Kiev followed that year, with anti-communist forces murdering 60 Jewish men and raping as many Jewish women.

In the latter part of 1919, during the Russian Revolution, the anti-communist White Army engineered pogroms in Kiev, Ukraine and Siberia, Mongolia and Belorussia in Russia. The same year a White Army division murdered 1,500 Jews in Fastov, Poland, and several pogroms were ignited by citizens in Ukraine.

As the pogroms faded away by 1921, the All-Russia Jewish Public Committee for Aid to the Pogromed was formed in Russia to help victims.

[smirkymonkey]

11. Those were the big waves of Jewish immigration from Russia and other Eastern European regions

and countries you mentioned. Many to the US. Have you ever seen "Fiddler on the Roof"? It's a musical, but it does show a bit of the dark side of those times and what the pogroms did to those communities back then in Tsarist Russia.

Even though no extreme violence is shown, there is something so heart wrenching in what it portrays - how it tears those communities apart - that is violent enough in itself. You can imagine the rest. Anyway, I still cannot watch it without crying.

[smirkymonkey]

12. Those were the big waves of Jewish immigration from Russia and other Eastern European regions

and countries you mentioned. Many to the US. Have you ever seen "Fiddler on the Roof"? It's a musical, but it does show a bit of the dark side of those times and what the pogroms did to those communities back then in Tsarist Russia.

Even though no extreme violence is shown, there is something so heart wrenching in what it portrays - how it tears those communities apart - that is violent enough in itself. You can imagine the rest. Anyway, I still cannot watch it without crying.

[hippywife]

13. My husband just finished

watching this movie about it last night. It's free through our library on Hoopla.

Mr. Jones (2019)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6828390/

A Welsh journalist breaks the news in the western media of the famine in Ukraine in the early 1930s. Starring James Norton as Gareth Jones.

[smirkymonkey]

16. Yes! I just reserved that on either my Amazon or Netflix queue! I can't wait to see it!

It is a fascinating story because it almost didn't get out but for the courage of the young Gareth Jones, who you mentioned is the young journalist who broke the truth of the story. If it wasn't for him, the world might not have ever know about this horrific genocide of the Ukrainians. And James Norton is a fantastic actor (and quite easy on the eyes - sorry - but he is one of my favorites).

An interesting little sideline is that Gareth Jones's mother, Annie Gwen Jones, worked in Russia as a tutor for the children of a man named John Hughes who was also a Welshman and who started up the steel industry in Russia.

He founded a town named "Hughesivka" or "Yusivka" which eventually became Donetsk,which is the industrial Ukranian city that Putin is invading now.

So it is really a town that was founded by a Welshman and not "Russian" at all, since most of the workers that were recruited to work there came from Wales as well. He basically built the city. The Bolsheviks eventually took over and drove them all out in 1919. Anyway, interesting story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hughes_(businessman)

Thanks for mentioning the film!

[hippywife]

17. That's all very interesting.

He said he really enjoyed the movie.

[oasis]

14. K and R

[relayerbob]

15. Yes, very much so, and thank you for posting

They also used Ukraine as cannon fodder to the Nazis in WW2, while they evacuated everything of value out, burning crops, killing prisoners and anyone else in the way.

The Ukrainians know these lessons well, not a family there was not affected. They've seen this movie before. They are fighting to the death, because the alternative will not be any better.

[smirkymonkey]

18. I really hope this time, they are the victors!

They have put up with so much humiliation and horror at the hands of the Russians. It is about time for them to have their freedom and to determine their own destiny.

And for once to live in peace without the spectre of Russian evil haunting them at every turn. I can't imagine what it must be like to live like that.

[sinkingfeeling]

26. I saw the 'bone crusher' in the Ukraine WWII Museum.

https://www.alamy.com/the-national-museum-of-the-history-of-ukraine-in-the-second-world-war-bone-crushing-machine-for-disposing-of-bones-after-cremation-image242076487.html

[niyad]

19. Thank you for the reminder of this horrific event.

[IronLionZion]

20. There is a Holodomor memorial in Washington, DC

near Union Station. Stalin was a real piece of shit. So is Putin.

I first heard of it when I went to a Ukrainian cultural event with a girlfriend who had done peace corps in western Ukraine. I also learned from her friends who worked in the east about the east-west divide in language and culture and politics there.

[smirkymonkey]

23. Really? That's good to know.

I am glad it has been officially acknowleged here in this country. Still, too few people know about that and the Armenian genocide, Circassian genocides, the Rape of Nanking and the hundreds of other genocides around the globe.

FFS, there are way too many people who still don't even believe the Holocaust was real!

Note: When we don't know what atrocities can happen when one group of people demonizes another, these are the the things that occur. That is why it is important to learn about them. So hopefully, they never happen again.

I watched a documentary this weekend on Hungarian Jewish victims of the Holocaust who survived the concentration camps and what made my blood run cold is that they said "We didn't run because it happened so slowly. We never thought it could get as bad as it did".

"Every time they did something awful, we never thought they would take it further, but they always did and by the time we realized we were in trouble, it was too late."

One woman said, "It didn't really hit me that it was the end until I was in that cattle car and that huge bar came down with a horrible sound and trapped us inside. It was then that I lost all hope."

It was awful. I cried the whole time and had to take breaks, but I think it was important to watch. Especially with what is going on now.

[Geechie]

36. What's the title?

I want to see this. Not really “want to,” but you know.

[smirkymonkey]

40. Oh the film I saw on the Hungarian Holocaust survivors was called

"The Last Days" and it was an Oscar winning documentary. It's on Netflix, but you might be able to find it elsewhere.
Here is the link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0174852/ Be prepared to bawl your eyes out and you may need quite a few breaks. I did.

However, I also took the message in this film as a modern-day warning for what is currently going on in this society. They didn't see it coming at the time, they just never thought it could really get that bad until it became a nightmare for them.

We can see it coming and we are still complacent. It is not only poigniant, heartbreaking, hopeful and redeeming, but it is a message of strength and love from these people who survived and flourished and had large families of their own - and who will stay in your heart forever.

[Geechie]

51. Thank you so much for this rec.

History is certainly rhyming these days.

[IronLionZion]

42. It's in a highly visible high foot traffic area. I've walked by many times

https://www.nps.gov/places/000/holodomor-memorial.htm



The DC area has a lot of Ukrainians and several Ukrainian churches. They've been protesting the war outside the Russian embassy.

[Martin68]

21. It is well known Stalin starved a million Ukrainians with his genocidal plan to weaken the country

and exert complete control over it.

[Dan]

22. Oh yes, although I never knew the official name for it.

That why I was surprised when a Ukrainian friend told me that his parents loved Stalin.

[IbogaProject]

24. I know a few Ukrainians

My childhood best friend's parents were refugees from there. I now have another friend who just recounted how her grate grandmother and one other were killed in a pomgrom and their later harrowing escape during early WW2. I hope Russia stops this from within and can begin to reverse the oligarch's power or even just end that strata over there.

[sinkingfeeling]

25. I was aware. Visited the Holodomor Museum in Kyiv.

[smirkymonkey]

29. That must have been intense.

I don't know if I would have been able to handle it. I have seen photos just from researching it and it was heartbreaking and brutal. They would have had to carry me out of there.

[sinkingfeeling]

30. I have left tears all over the world, visiting places that show

man's cruelty towards others.

[arthritisR_US]

27. K&R!

[blue-wave]

28. I posted Info on the Holodomor not long ago.

The Ukrainian people have suffered for too long a time. Putin is such an evil *%#!

[smirkymonkey]

31. Really? Can you re-post in this thread or maybe even repost in GD now that

Ukraine is in the forefront?

I am personally very interested in the topic and I think it is important that people know just how horribly the Ukranian people have been treated by the Soviet/Russian government.

You don't have to, but I am just surprised that as a fairly well educated person I had only found out about it recently, which just goes to show me that this is a truth that the Russian gov't has really taken pains to bury and hide from the world.

[blue-wave]

35. I looked through my past posts

and it's not in the archives. The archives on posts only goes back one month. But what I had posted was a very good documentary about Holodomor I found on YouTube. Just did a quick search and can't find it on YouTube. But here's some info on the Holodomor museum. It's in the middle of the war zone, but maybe their web site is up.

Also, I'm posting a movie in the video section as soon as I finish typing this. I found it on YouTube, entitled "Mr Jones" I highly recommend watching it for insight into Holodomor.

Mr. Jones Info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Jones_(2019_film)

[smirkymonkey]

37. Wow. That is intense. And i am so glad they are building it.

But i just had a horrible thought. I hope the Russians don't destroy it now. Has it been completed? That would just be such a crushing blow.

I just added Mr. Jones to my queue on Amazon Prime recently, like within the past week or so. What a brave young man. He risked everything to tell the world the truth and paid for it with his life eventually (not a spoiler, everyone knows he died young after he revealed what he knew).

The thing is that he also met Hitler and other Nazi party members and predicted what they would do, (not good) and he was right.

He was the original "Man Who Knew Too Much". Many people thought he could have altered the course of history, had he lived. Unfortunately, there were too many people who wanted him to shut up. Well, I know what film I am going to watch this weekend!

[Slammer]

32. I'm aware of the historical event

I've never heard it called "Holodomor".

[blue-wave]

38. Holodomor in Ukrainian means "death by famine" or starvation

[smirkymonkey]

41. Yes, thank you.

I think it also implies "intentional" as well. That is, I don't think it is a passive term, as in someone just didn't eat enough and passed away. It means that starvation was imposed upon a population causing death intentionally. At least that is my understanding.

[Duppers]

33. My husband knows.

Speaks Russian, is a student of Russian history.

[keithbvadu2]

34. Political scholar Tommy Tuberville explains that Putin is after the food in Ukraine.

Political scholar Tommy Tuberville explains that Putin is after the food in Ukraine.

"He can't feed his people," Tuberville said. "It's a communist country, so he can't feed his people"

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216393443

[smirkymonkey]

47. Oh yes, let's try "collective farming" again.

I'm sure that will be the answer. God, what an asshole.

[Backseat Driver]

44. There have been other famines during the history of the USSR

always exacerbated by "policy." Perhaps when Putin considers his "legacy" he revisit history to see how internal wars have scarred Russia(USSR), the latest reported 1946-47. One has to wonder what stories he had heard growing up as a grandfather was a cook for Lenin and Stalin. I'm relieved to note that the substance of these genocides have been exposed even though they are outright banned from some history books and hidden and denied or lauded by the ultra-wealthy/powerful where rich urban industrialization and more isolated, rural lifestyles have clashed.

Perhaps it's time to dig in the documentary film archives to raise awareness of what may have been early influences in Vladimir's life story. People who commit to genocidal policies combined with war for personal aggrandizement of power and fame are NEVER remembered kindly...SMH at the madness that overtook authoritarian leaders who came to value their own unempathetic psychopathology in leadership. When noted these people/supporters need to be removed from inflicting such miseries upon their national populations as war criminals else we're doomed to suffer under the stress and horror they bring...

Consider the likes of a fictional Hannibal Lecter as a head of state anywhere in the world. In researching the backstory of this character I seemed to recall how he was forced into cannabalism of his beloved sister, Misha. Thinking the Soviets were involved in the tall tale, I searched for the author's backstory but found "Holodomor" instead. Granted his backstory was more recent than the several famines in Russia(USSR) over the last century, yet as a fictional Lithuanian born in 1933, still subject to circumstances under wars' "craziness" of Nazi's and USSR legacy policies..."red" ultra-conservative individual winner-take-all Orwellian and Animal Farm ideologies of personal leadership that foregoes diplomacy and empathy for have-nots whatever their attributes of self so ascribed to them, and those that cling to totalitarianism and terror that removes empathy for others from our species' humanity.

[bif]

46. I read a book about it several years ago

When I was visiting friends in Ukraine.

[smirkymonkey]

48. Did they ever mention anything about it?

It was such a horrible period, but there must have been survivors who were able to speak about it.