If NATO won't agree to a no fly zone, should the US do it alone?

[JohnSJ]

42 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes
	1 (2%)
	No
	41 (98%)
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[SmittyWerben]

1. No

And here is why:

[JohnSJ]

10. That is the argument that Lawrence O'Donnell was making tonight

[crickets]

28. It's a good one. nt

[Rhiannon12866]

42. Here's Lawrence O'Donnell:

Lawrence: U.S. Has No Good Choices Dealing With Russian Aggression - The Last Word - MSNBC

MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell discusses the U.S. and NATO rejecting Ukraine’s request for a no-fly zone over that country, and explains why Russia’s nuclear weapons arsenal means Pres. Biden has no good options when dealing with Russian aggression. Aired on 03/04/2022.

[uponit7771]

2. PUH LEASE with the "no fly zone" !! Long and short range AA do WAAAAAY better than no fly zone with

... no high altitude bombing and even that's sketchy.

It would be better for Americans to spend our energy getting UKR forces long and short range old Russian AA that they've already trained on, more useful if its saturates and area, less expensive and no on has to train a year on it to use it (4 hours to 4 days) vs expanding the war into NATO.

Adovated for short and long range AA, it'll hurt the Russians more and be faster

[gldstwmn]

6. I'm with you on that. They need to be able to defend themselves from the aerial assault.

[uponit7771]

7. Yep but aerial assault is from Putrids punk ass move to go after civilians with unguided muntions

... not planes, cause he can't win against UKR regulars.

He's getting his ass kicked in UKR, no one wants to say it but its all on FOSINT.

As of yesterday Russia has LITERALLY suppled UKR with more tonnage of operational war weapons than NATO !!

I'm serious, they're leaving tanks on the road and its the supposed "bad ass" T-80 and 90 tanks too.

[relayerbob]

20. What's FOSINT?

[uponit7771]

34. Free Open Source Intel

[relayerbob]

38. Thanks

[uponit7771]

39. I got to Twitter to get info but APIs are common for satellites for your own use

[relayerbob]

43. Got a link?

[uponit7771]

44. yep

https://twitter.com/i/lists/1490427245097148423

[relayerbob]

46. Excellent, thanks again

[lastlib]

31. "Foundations of Open Source Intelligence and Security Informatics"

[relayerbob]

37. Thanks

[AntiFascist]

12. Agreed, especially needed are long range AA n/t

[relayerbob]

18. Agreed

Find as many S-300 and SA-17 (BUK) missiles and launchers as possible and get them there now.

[BootinUp]

3. I think its possible thse positions could change

over the next weeks.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

4. Absolutely not!!!

That would have the potential of rupturing the unity of NATO.

[JohnSJ]

5. +++

[BannonsLiver]

8. Only a handful of votes supporting a nuclear Holocaust in this one.

Progress.

On edit: and one naive, black and white argument below from someone who is out of their depth.)

[krawhitham]

9. I see No is clearly winning, so we're OK with putin killing 40 million people?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

11. Nobody fucking said that,

and it wouldn't be 40 million killed, it would be hundreds of millions killed in the ensuing nuke exchange.

[krawhitham]

15. 43,295,254 people in Ukraine, they will not give up and putin will not back down

No easy choices I get that, but putin will not stop with just Ukraine. Once he moves beyond Ukraine NATO's hand will be forced, but Ukraine will already be destroyed

[sarisataka]

49. 7,931,294,345 in the world

How many die when a couple hundred cities look like this



Do we need to rush headlong into this?

[JohnSJ]

17. Thank-you. Too many are not thinking the long run. I wonder how many here for implementing a

no-fly zone, lived through the Cuban Missile crisis.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

25. I did, I was in High School at the time and I well remember

the dive under the desk nuclear drills, or as it's called, duck under the desk, place your head firmly between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye.

[JohnSJ]

26. same here. I remember coming home from school and saw my parents looking so worried

[2naSalit]

29. I did, in Key West, FL.

It was not pleasant.

[JohnSJ]

30. You were right in the middle of it

[2naSalit]

32. Yup.

Never forget it either. My dad was in the recon squadrons that followed those missiles all the way from Russia to Cuba, I knew about them before it was a thing.

I remember a sense of dumbfoundedness everywhere. The 60s were weird but this was a community in shock prior to an event. It was a creepy feeling. I felt that again in Wisconsin after the next town over was wiped away by a tornado in the night, same feeling.

[JohnSJ]

13. It isn't that simple. A no-fly zone is equivalent to a declaration of war. Going alone without

NATO, would break the most unified coalition we have seen in years

I recommend listening to Lawrence O’Donnell tonight which discusses this very issue
and why it would be a reckless action

[krawhitham]

19. I understand why it's labeled a "reckless action", but putin will not stop with Ukraine

and then what happens, what's next? Does he just get to take all of Europe because he may use his nukes?

I don't know the answers but I know he will not stop until he is stopped

[relayerbob]

24. You are assuming Russia will win this war

That is likely a bad assumption

[MarineCombatEngineer]

27. What makes you think Putin is going to win?

He may win the battle, and that's still questionable, but he certainly isn't going to win the war against 40 million pissed of Ukrainians who will start an insurgency that will make Afghanistan look like a walk in the park.

[Sapient Donkey]

48. Putin is having a hard time in Ukraine. I couldn't imagine him trying to extend his military even

further. It should be very clear at this time to him that him attacking NATO would not work out in his favor, and his only options would be to use nukes. We can only hope he isn't that insane. It seems best to not force the that situation if it can be avoided. And with a no-fly zone, how much of the carnage that we've seen would be spared? Isn't most of the destruction from artillery like MLRS or long range cruise missiles? I suppose missile systems to try to shoot down some of the cruise missiles could be useful, but that won't do much about artillery attacks.

Is there really much gain from doing that based on what we've seen so far?

[relayerbob]

21. Ukraine would be the absolute first to get hit, 100% certain

That's when 40 million die.

After the next several waves go off, the losses are in the billions.

[48656c6c6f20]

14. No because I llke low cost

Caffè latte and gas. God forbids I sacrifice low cost shit for democracy.

[Spider Jerusalem]

16. Do you want WWIII? Because that's how you get WWIII.

[JohnSJ]

23. A no fly zone would be a declaration of war against Russia. No one should be OK with that

[Metaphorical]

22. This is a hostage situation

The perpetrator has swathed himself in dynamite and has it rigged to a deadman's switch, he has a gun to a hostage's head, and the perpetrator doesn't really care whether he dies or not.

The officer on the scene knows full well that the perp is not going to make it out alive, but he wants the hostages unharmed. A direct assault (a no-fly zone) would certainly provoke an escalation, which I'm coming to believe Putin wants.

I'm of the same belief as most everyone here. The Ukrainians are capable fighters - give them the weapons they need, the support to get civilians out of the way, and let them fight their war. Given everything else, I think they might even be able to win.

[BlueWavePsych]

33. Covert action, yes.

https://democraticunderground.com/1017717695

[ConflictResolution]

35. Anyone promoting escalation on this site should think twice and then think some more.

Then be forced to watch Threads in full over and over again until it sinks in. Especially younger DU members full of piss and vinegar for war with Russia. The boomers here promoting war propaganda should already know better.

Snip...

[MarineCombatEngineer]

40. You are spot on.

Welcome to DU ConflictResolution.

[Maru Kitteh]

36. Other.

NATO would be best, but us along with a few friends is also an option.

[Rhiannon12866]

41. Here's Lawrence O'Donnell, for those who missed this segment:

Lawrence: U.S. Has No Good Choices Dealing With Russian Aggression - The Last Word - MSNBC
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017717708

MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell discusses the U.S. and NATO rejecting Ukraine’s request for a no-fly zone over that country, and explains why Russia’s nuclear weapons arsenal means Pres. Biden has no good options when dealing with Russian aggression. Aired on 03/04/2022.

[Calista241]

45. not only no, but fuck no.

[Sapient Donkey]

47. No. I think there is merit to the idea that would be a gift to Putin at this time.

The war is going poorly for him, his economy is collapsing, the oligarchs are getting restless, and the world is mostly united against him and supporting the Ukrainian people. US or NATO involvement would only give him a propaganda win that he could use to further draw it out. Make it about big bad US/NATO attacking Russia rather than it being about Putin's conquest of Ukraine.

It sucks for the Ukrainians and it feels really cold and detached to say this is how it has to be so that Putin can lose. Either way the Ukrainians are going to suffer because Putin has chose for it to be that way.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

50. No

Two nuclear powers should not fight