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DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
Sat Mar 5, 2022, 10:53 PM Mar 2022

On Ukraine and Russia

OK, before the inevitable tomatoes get thrown, let me make some things clear:

Putin is indeed a great malefactor in the world. The way he has given license to the oligarchs, the religious fundamentalists in his country (look up Alexander Dugan) , the fundamentalist's in OUR country and his outright trashing of environmental standards are all things that are a red alert for democracy, indeed, humanity as a whole. Yes, China is big, scary and outright poker-faced, but Russians have a willingness to act on their passions in self destructive ways, and frankly, ways destructive to those around them. China may revere Chairman Mao, but the vast majority, probably Xi included, have no desire for any crusade. Yes they want Taiwan and Hong Kong, and yes, they are courting full out Jihad with their treatment of the Uighurs, but they also know that they have already exhausted their supply of good will, which they want badly.

Russia, they do not care, and they know, just like our Red state barbarians, that chaos is the fire that feeds them. They will happily burn the cities and leave civilization to rubble if they think that Jesus will love them, and proclaim that they are children of destiny/the pure white race/yadda yadda. There is a difference between fighting someone who is motivated by an idea, and one motivated by faith.

So, after I slammed Russia, why am I about to say something that many might not like? The Truth

Truth one: After the USSR fell, we had a great opportunity to help them. They had good will towards us, still happy with Glasnost. What did we do? We tried to steal everything not nailed down by forcing them to privatize everything. We totally reneged on the idea that we would not expand Nato into the Eastern Bloc, especially Ukraine. Oh yes, I blame Merkel for part of that, especially as her right wing economics did a lot to sour the dream of the EU, but we were dancing on their grave, partying like it was 1999.

Yes, Putin is indeed our enemy. The very second he said the "n" word, aka NUCLEAR, he signed his own death warrant, as NOBODY in the world has any illusions that once bombs drop, they will not feel it. Even Xi knows that once the fallout floats his way, he will not be able to ensure control of China, a nations that for all it's glory, is one bad harvest away for chaos. And let's not even mention how fallout will churn ecological disasters that are already on the way, demanding payment for long unpaid bills. We know that Putin, and his altar boy, Trump are tryign to bring in chaos because it is the only thing they are good at making.

But all the same, let us not turn this into the 90's Let us not take comfort in the old demonizing of Russians, most of whom are every bit as scared as we are. As Freddy Nietzsche put it "in the course of fighting monsters, we must not become monsters.

This type of hate was old when Sting sang about it, we do not need to wear it like some shirt that has nto fit for years.

12 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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WarGamer

(12,427 posts)
1. And looking to the future... when Putin is gone.
Sat Mar 5, 2022, 10:59 PM
Mar 2022

Don't forget post-WW1... the hatred for Germany fueled the Third Reich.

Today's Russians, those under maybe 40 are just as moderate if not liberal as their Eu neighbors.

When Putin's gone and extremism has faded away... I hope the Russian people are accepted to the world community quickly.

Scrivener7

(50,935 posts)
2. So many things to say, but let's start with this: how exactly did we force them to privatize
Sat Mar 5, 2022, 10:59 PM
Mar 2022

everything? We are at fault for the systems and corruption they ended up with? The oligarchs and their money grabs had nothing to do with that process, it was us?

Scrivener7

(50,935 posts)
11. And you interpret that to mean we forced them to privatize? .... OK.... But no.
Sun Mar 6, 2022, 09:23 AM
Mar 2022

Also the article explicitly states that the US never made any promises about NATO. So what Putin cooks up in his nasty little brain is not something anyone can control.

Unless you think that's our fault too?

At any rate, I don't think the article you link supports your assertions, and I completely disagree with those assertions except where you say this is not the fault of the Russian people.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
3. Stop repeating Kremlin talking points: this is not about NATO expansion
Sat Mar 5, 2022, 11:03 PM
Mar 2022

Putin is trying to put the USSR back together because HE feels humiliated by its breakup.

He’s 70 years old. He’s trying to forge a legacy.

However we fucked up post 1991, the fact remains Russia has never been a democracy in its entire existence. I’m not sure we could have “helped” Russia towards being a democracy at that point since we’ve always had much more capitalistic designs than democratic ones on fledgeling countries.

brush

(53,764 posts)
6. What happen in Russia after the USSR fell apart is not our fault.
Sat Mar 5, 2022, 11:41 PM
Mar 2022

Gorbachev resigned after a failed coup against him by hardliner Marxist-Leninists against glasnost and his reforms to loosen control over the eastern European republics. He also introduced an election for the president of the USSR, which Boris Yelsin won.

The Soviet Union fell apart soon after as Gorbachev, the General Secretary of the USSR wasn't elected and Yelsin, who was, took over.

Unlike Germany after WWll, there was no war there for us to help them recover from like in post-war Germany so to say the US is to blame by forcing privatization is farfetched. Yelsin was an inadequate leader (booze), and the oligarchs needed no help from us in privatizing everything in sight to enrich themselves.

Yelsin stepped down and turned leadership over to Putin and the rest is history. The oligarchs shared wealth with Putin btw so they could retain what they grabbed. We had no control there.

radius777

(3,635 posts)
7. Fuck 'em. The USSR lost the Cold War. The West should've strangled
Sun Mar 6, 2022, 12:12 AM
Mar 2022

any remaining authoritarian elements into submission when we had the chance, and should've more forcefully supported pro-democracy and pro-market movements. Europe appeased Putin due to wanting his oil and oligarch money - that is why Ukraine and Georgia are not in NATO like they should be.

Putin isn't 'scared' of NATO or Ukraine. He's jealous that the world largely turned Westward after the USSR fell. Even many Russians love the Western consumerism they are suddenly going to be cut off from.

Emrys

(7,227 posts)
9. Yeltsin's period in power is the key.
Sun Mar 6, 2022, 12:27 AM
Mar 2022

The attempted coup against Gorbachev which displaced him as president was the beginning of the road that's led to now. That's what the West is culpable for. Yeltsin suited its vested interests down to the ground, and he was effectively a placeman to preside over and facilitate the vultures descending on the corpse of the USSR.

Imagine a Russia where all the utilities and resources hadn't been fed to the oligarchs, turning Russia into an ultra-capitalist free-for-all and cementing power in the hands of the Russian mafia, with Putin as capo.

NATO would have been far less significant in that situation, as economics and a continuation of Gorbachev's reforms would have led to fewer tensions and probably greater effective democracy in Russia and the ex-Soviet satellite states.

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