Russia's Position - I don't get it. But I don't like it when we do it either.

[qwlauren35]

Not sure if this will show up here: https://www.facebook.com/newyorkred/videos/457302026138297

It is a Nigerian explaining Russia's side to other Nigerians.

As a Westerner and an American, I *know* that I am biased. I have frequently turned a blind eye to America's unfair military behavior abroad. I have not always questioned, much less vehemently opposed the sides we choose, or I accepted the news accounts of our "reasonable" position. I am not proud of this. When Russia attacked Ukraine, friends pointed to the airstrikes in Palestine, Yemen and Syria and asked where my compassion was for them. It's not Europe, it does not get press. And it's our allies initiating the aggression, and we don't challenge our allies. We turn a blind eye. We justify. We do not look at "the other side".

At any rate, this video presents Russia's side. Russia REALLY, REALLY, REALLY does not want Ukraine to join NATO. They consider it worth going to war over. In the video, the argument is that this is allowing the enemy to camp at your door. Interestingly enough, Finland, a Russian border country, is not a NATO country. And when I look at how the US reacted when Cuba became Communist, it's pretty much the same. And our position in the Middle East is horrific.

From the Guardian:

The west tacitly supported the violent military overthrow of the democratically elected Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and instigated the more violent fall of the Libyan Jamahiriya, which had struggled with crippling US sanctions for decades. The west has prolonged Syria’s civil war, where it shares a regime change objective with jihadists. Nor was it the Iraqis who obliterated their own country, it was mainly US air power.

So, I find myself trying to look at Russia's behavior through a different lens. The lens of an African commentator who sees what the US has frequently done as no different from what Russia is doing now.

In my mind, two wrongs don't make a right. What the US has done to start wars in other countries that want autonomy is just as wrong as what Russia is doing now. I don't think the US should go into a country uninvited, I don't think the US should take sides in a civil war. A peacekeeping middleman, yes. IF WE CAN BE NEUTRAL (unlike Israel/Palestine). But I am really sick of us invading other countries.

And I wish we would take a good hard look at ourselves, since we don't like it when Russia does it.

I wish Russia hadn't invaded Ukraine. I don't think it was right. I don't think not wanting a NATO country at your doorstep is a good enough justification for starting a war. But maybe, if I hold a mirror up to the US, and see that we do this ALL THE TIME, I can look at Russia differently. They are just doing what we do.

I miss Gorbachev. He would not have done this.

[Happy Hoosier]

1. Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia are NATO members.

Sooo……

[qwlauren35]

3. Didn't do my research.

Sorry. I will correct that.

[Bev54]

5. Yes the are!

That was the first thing that jumped out at me.

[qwlauren35]

21. Fixed it.

Took it out. And looked at the map. And thought about it. And the reason no longer makes sense.

And I find myself wondering. WHY has Russia done something that would potentially cause WWIII and the use of nuclear weaponry around the globe? I really want to know. Wars always have two sides. I don't think Putin is actually stating the real reason to his people. Ukranians don't have the luxury to sit around and be curious, so I'm slightly ashamed on that count.

However, I do understand why many Asian and African countries do not want to be involved.

[AntiFascist]

42. I think Putin is terrified of democracy and western influence in Russia...

he probably saw how China has successfully repressed democracy at Tiananmen Square and in Hong Kong, and would try something on a much larger and violent scale in Ukraine, using the historical excuse that Ukraine was once an integral part of Russia.

Gorbachev brought Demokratizatsiya to the Soviet Union. Putin would want to exterminate it.

[bloom]

59. From Masha Gessen - interviewed by Ezra Klein

(Masha Gessen is a Russian-American who visited Russia just as the invasion was starting)

"...But Putin appears to be placing himself on a continuum of Russian history that he sees as a series of great leaders beginning with Ivan the Terrible. Ivan the Terrible was not an emperor that Russians particularly revered ever before Vladimir Putin’s reign. But the first monument to Ivan the Terrible went up, I guess, six or seven years ago in Russia. So Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Joseph Stalin, and Vladimir Putin.
It’s a huge span. It’s a series of great, brutal, expansionist dictators.

He skips right over the great divide of the October Revolution. He doesn’t see the Soviet period as distinct in Russian history. And so he gave a scary and rambling and ridiculous speech on February 21 by way of introducing this new invasion of Ukraine. But as a Putin text, it was quite remarkable because he laid out his vision of the entire Soviet period in more detail than he ever has before.

And what he said was that — without using the word empire — but he said that that whole Soviet way of constituting the empire by nominally giving its constituent parts the rights of statehood and nominally making the union voluntary was a fiction. That, in fact, there is a continuous history from the Russian Empire to the present day and that all the separations from Moscow’s rule that have occurred over the period of the last 100-plus years are illegitimate.

So he places himself in this really, really long period. But he also — I mean, he’s profoundly anti-modern. He’s a president of a European country in 2022 who’s engaging in completely uncritical, unexamined, imperial rhetoric and sort of saying everything that came after is bullshit...."

from : Transcript: Ezra Klein Interviews Masha Gessen
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/11/podcasts/transcript-ezra-klein-interviews-masha-gessen.html

[Ocelot II]

2. "They are just doing what we do." Bullshit.

That's a nice bit of whatabouting. Yes, we've done bad things, Iraq most recently and notably. But what we don't do is invade and annex other countries. And nothing the US has done in the past justifies in any way what Putin is doing now.

[qwlauren35]

9. Cuba.

Bay of Pigs.

We've done it.

And yes, we invaded Iraq just because we're a Superpower, and its something that Superpowers do. We invade countries that we think are a threat.


I am NOT saying that what Russia did is justified based on what we've done. I'm just saying that since we don't like watching Russia do it, perhaps we should not do it either.

I completely, totally abhor Russia's war with Ukraine. I hate their position, their reason, their defense, their justification. I think it is very, very wrong.

However, the more I look at things we have done, the more understandable it becomes. They ARE a Superpower. And if you look at US behavior, invading other countries is something that Superpowers do.

The big reason why Taiwan is shitting bricks. Invading other countries (China) is something that Superpowers do.

[Wingus Dingus]

11. "The more understandable it becomes"--

no, it really doesn't. And Russia's not a superpower.

[qwlauren35]

22. Ummm.

Maybe you think the term superpower is inappropriate.

Russia - country with the second largest nuclear arsenal in the world. Member of the UN Security Council.

China - country with the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world. Member of the UN Security Council.

You and I just have different definitions.

[Wingus Dingus]

26. Nuclear arsenal alone is not what makes a superpower.

It's economy, too. They used to be, when it was the USSR, but they're not, now--and with the sanctions, they're slipping even further away. The US considers them a "great power".

[Polybius]

57. Russia doesn't have the second most, it has the first most

Country Total Weapons Available

Russia 6,257 3,039

United States 5,550 2,361

China 350 350

France 290 290

[Ocelot II]

14. What's happening in Ukraine has fuck-all to do with Cuba or any other

past American misadventures. As misbegotten as the Bay of Pigs incident was, the intent was never to annex and claim to own Cuba. There is no parallel.

[qwlauren35]

25. Not sure why...

You do not want to see parallels between the behavior of the two countries.

I hate what Russia is doing. I'm a bit scared of what Russia has done. I think what Russia did is wrong. Please know that I think that Russia is in the wrong.

The US is not right next door to the countries it invades. So annexing them doesn't make sense. Who's to know what the US would do if it was next to a small country that seemed to be a threat. But do not suggest for a minute that the US does not invade countries for economic or political or military reasons that would appall many Americans if they knew the damage and destruction we did to countries that never did anything to us.

[OnDoutside]

18. Of course the US shouldn't do either but that must not give Russia

a free pass when they do it. At some point this will stop. Biden taking the US out of Afghanistan was the right thing to do. The almost universal condemnation and isolation of Russia was also the right thing to do, hopefully laying the stepping stone for the world to be able to respond to future transgressions.

[marie999]

55. The US didn't annex Vietnam, it just set up a puppet government in South Vietnam

and refused to let the North and South reunify which caused the death of over 2 million Vietnamese civilians.

[Wingus Dingus]

4. The US paid a huge price, in blood, money, and reputation, for our wars

over the decades. We are an open, democratic society and can analyze ourselves, learn from our mistakes, be humbled, and correct our course by changing our leaders and demanding accountability. But that has fuck-all to do with what is happening in Ukraine. We are watching the most clear-cut good v. evil fight most of us have seen in our lifetimes, unless we're really old and remember WW2. So, feel all the US guilt and remorse you want, but don't use our sins of the past to water down Putin's monstrous evil of today.

[marked50]

51. Agree totally. Thanks for the distinction here between the way we would all like to live

versus the ugliness of what we may be living in. Progress will move us forward if we don't lose that understanding.

[Arazi]

6. Nope. The NATO Baltic states and Poland border Russia and have for decades

This is a Kremlin talking point and easily debunked. Please consider deleting.

Putin wants to put the old USSR back together. This is his first country, after he’s “taken” Ukraine (since he’s now taken Crimea and Belarus), he’ll continue onwards. This is a naked war of aggression and land grab

[qwlauren35]

10. Done.

I deleted it. Didn't do enough research.

[uponit7771]

13. +1, I did the same thing its anchor bias where humans tend to take what they hear FIRST ...

... as factual even if its from a source of authority they don't trust.

FAUX News and TASS and Pravda are keen at exploiting this human cognitive flaw that's why they lie so fast with straight faces.

I swear Putrid maybe had a point but then saw the Baltic states and was thinking he must be nuts, nope ... he's an asshole.

He knows what he's doing, that FSB mind screw division is top notch

[brush]

35. He can't put the USSR back together but IMO he's...

concerned about his own legacy as he's getting older and see's himself as "special" and wants to re-establish a sort of Russian empire which would have to include Ukraine and it's Russian speakers.

He can't include the former Soviet republics which are now part of NATO for obvious reasons. His forces are no match for NATO as he's having trouble in taking Ukraine by itself.

He knows he doesn't have much time left.

He might have less than he thinks. How much longer before others, ambitious others, see him as having been weaken by this Ukraine miscalculation and begin plotting to take him out?

[lame54]

7. Ukraine is a buffer...

From being neighbors with NATO countries

Taking Ukraine would make Russia neighbors with these NATO countries

Their excuse for invading is counterproductive and makes no sense

[qwlauren35]

12. Hmmm...

So, what is their real reason? What possible reason could they have for starting WWIII and a possible nuclear war.

If not that they thought they could?

[Arazi]

16. Putin is getting the band back together

He’s trying to force the former USSR satellite states back under Russian control.

He’s been isolated with COVID protocols these past two years and has only allowed uber-nationalists to get close.

He’s always harbored a grudge about the 1991 breakup. He’s now determined to put it all back together.

He’s 70 years old, a mega-billionaire. It’s not about money anymore, he’s trying to build his legacy

[lame54]

19. It will always be...

Different from what they tell you

[marie999]

53. No, Ukraine would still be a buffer.

If Ukraine joined NATO, then NATO would have a 3,322-mile border with Russia and Belarus.

[malaise]

8. Great post

Thanks

[Demsrule86]

15. I don't think so...Russia invaded Ukraine in order to conquer them ...they had done nothing to

them...Afghanistan housed Osama Bin Laden...who killed more than 2000 Americans. Certainly, Saddam had caused us trouble as well...Now I disagree with both of those wars...but they are not akin to what Russia has done...Thus 'this America sucks too' meme is not true and frankly disgusts me.

[malaise]

23. Maybe one day you'll take a good look at what your Manifest Destiny has meant

and means for the rest of us.

[Elessar Zappa]

28. That doesn't excuse what Russia's doing.

[malaise]

29. I haven't seen anyone saying that

A few of us are asking about your own government's actions across our planet and it is still all of ours.

[Demsrule86]

56. It seems to me that is 'the old both sides do it'. It is not right to equate this country to

God damn Russia. I find it untrue and infuriating...and it kind of gives Russia a pass. We shouldn't do that.

[Mariana]

52. No one has even hinted that it excuses what Russia is doing. nt.

[Elessar Zappa]

58. Then what's the point of bringing it up?

Everyone on this site knows that the US has done some terrible things. But it’s irrelevant to what’s going on right now in Europe.

[bloom]

60. Unfortunately, People like Putin think it is relevant n/t

[Demsrule86]

54. That has nothing to do with this.

[qwlauren35]

46. Wanted to share this with you.

https://www.crisisgroup.org/europe-central-asia/eastern-europe/ukraine/ukraine-war-global-crisis

I wanted to do some digging around as to where non-NATO countries stood on this "situation".

It's actually very interesting. Even Israel, with a Russian border, offers to mediate, as opposed to complete condemnation.

A lot of anti-West sentiment is at play. A lot of sideline observance of all the times that the US overstepped international law with no consequence. Russia has also been making a lot of friends.

There is evidently a huge group of countries who consider themselves "Non-aligned". Often doing business with West and East. And Russia gives arms to a lot of African countries.

This reality becomes clear by the number of countries who abstained from condemning Russia. I think it was 35 countries, including 16 (out of 54) African countries.

I'm not sure if this will become a WORLD War. It may just become a European War with the US participating. I don't think South America, Southern and Eastern Asia or Africa want to get involved.

Americans are quick to think that a European War is a WORLD War. I don't think it's going to play out like that.

[malaise]

47. Israel - Russian border?

Israel's position here is fascinating given her relationship with the US.
That said there are many non-aligned countries.
I will die a non-aligned citizen of this planet. History tells me I'm right.

[PSPS]

17. Good grief. Someone plugged in the whataboutism-o-mat machine again.

[EX500rider]

20. Ukraine Vs Iraq

Actually I consider it the exact opposite,
US
invading a country, removing a genocidal dictator, installing a democratic government and pulling out
Vs
Russia
invading a democratic country, installing a dictator or annexing and never leaving

[malaise]

24. Re Iraq - US illegally invading a country

That is all

[EX500rider]

27. Get back to me when elected President Volodymyr Zelensky uses poison gas on his OWN people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_massacre

[malaise]

30. You mean like the Atomic Bomb in Japan

or Agent Orange in Vietnam - spare me. Evil is everywhere

[EX500rider]

32. Yeah show me where we used poison gas against our OWN people

Saddam lost all right to rule Iraq then & there

[malaise]

34. You didn't have to - you exterminated indigenous people

and sanctioned lynching African Americans.

Or planet has lots of evil men (and women) and you are not exempt so spare me the self-righteous BS and the wanton use of ridiculous terms like bothsideism.
Both sides and then some others are adept at fucking evil.

[EX500rider]

36. When your examples are 100+ years old you are grasping at straws IMO

[malaise]

40. Tell that to the close to a million dead Iraqis from

your illegal invasion and occupation.

[EX500rider]

50. Not sure how it is my illegal invasion and occupation.

I was born in Montego Bay and raised in Costa Rica.

[peppertree]

38. But don't forget Rumsfeld sold him the poison gas (and so much other lethal aid besides)

We have the history we have - not the one we wished we had.

That said, nothing justifies what Russia is doing to Ukraine - full stop.

What we and others may or may not have done in the recent or distant past, is absolutely beside the point.

[EX500rider]

49. Actually the Germans sold them the pesticide factories that they converted.

[JI7]

33. Islam is the problem in many of those places

and internal fighting between different ideologies.

We stay out unless there are issues of self defense. Recently the US attacked and took out some al shabab terrorists in Somalia but many of the usual crowd are using that to attack the US.

It was the Egyptian people that got rid of Muslim brotherhood.

[MoonlitKnight]

37. The invasion is not about NATO

https://www.justsecurity.org/80343/russias-new-assault-on-ukraine-is-not-entirely-maybe-not-even-largely-about-nato/

“ However, Putin’s rhetoric and actions over almost two decades reveal that his goals extend beyond imposing neutrality on Ukraine or even staving off further NATO expansion. The larger objective is to re-establish Russian political and cultural dominance over a nation that Putin sees as one with Russia, and then follow up by undoing the European rules-based order and security architecture established in the aftermath of World War II. Given these goals, Ukrainian neutrality is a woefully insufficient concession for Putin.”

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putins-worst-nightmare-is-ukrainian-independence-not-nato-expansion/

https://www.eurozine.com/not-about-nato/

I think a very high percentage of people on this site opposed W’s Iraq invasion. But us doing something wrong in the past does not justify another country’s unlawful actions today. Trying to impose democracy does not work. But we should be doing everything we can to defend existing democracies - or we risk losing our own.

[BootinUp]

41. It's not that complicated really though,

The proper lense is a human rights lense.

[The Unmitigated Gall]

43. One of Pootler's biggest distortions is to present NATO as if it is

Some kind of rival militaristic entity, pressing ever eastward, presumably until it finds the right time and circumstance to invade. This is pure horsecrap; NATO hasn’t expanded eastward, massing armies on Russia’s borders; nations terrified of Russia’s centuries-old tendency to attack its neighbors have applied for membership in NATO because they KNOW what Russia is capable of doing to them. Russia is under no external threat, other than Mutual Assured Destruction, which of course the entire world is under.
Pootler, right now, is showing the world what Russia is capable of and willing to do to any smaller, weaker nation it borders, if it feels like it. They’ve been doing horrible shit like this since the czars. But for NATO, this could be Poland, Czechia/Slovakia, Romania or the Baltics.
NATO hasn’t laid a pinky-toe on Russian soil. To avoid escalation NATO does not maintain massed forces on the frontier with Russia. Only present are modest contingents of soldiers and equipment rotating through from the various member countries. No individual member of NATO is remotely capable of attacking Russia as anything other than an act of suicide. NATO’s charter is purely defensive and Pootler knows this as well as anyone else. What the bastard absolutely can’t stand, what really shits in his caviar is seeing a former territory of the old USSR throwing off it’s oppressive, corrupt Soviet-style governance, turn to the West, embrace liberal democracy and SUCCEED. Ukrainians are being murdered because they’ve done well.

[Wingus Dingus]

45. Excellent post.

[JI7]

44. Self righteous vanity bs

The world has done fucked up things. Deal with those things but only bringing it up in n this way is bs.

[EX500rider]

61. "But what about what Rome did to Carthage?!" lol

[Tommy Carcetti]

62. Nope. Just nope.

Pure garbage.

Someone apparently thought Russian propaganda talking points would sound better if it were coming from someone other than a Russian.

Still garbage.