President Biden: "We will not fight the third world war in Ukraine."

[Polybius]

Link to tweet

Thank God Biden is in charge, and not a hawk.

[Elessar Zappa]

1. I'm glad adults are in charge now.

Can you imagine if Trump were still in office?

[Polybius]

2. Or anyone that's a hawk

We'd be in serious trouble if one were.

[MLAA]

14. He would have put his son in law and Stephen miller in charge.

[Renew Deal]

3. I get what he means, but that clip may not hold up well.

[Fiendish Thingy]

4. Then it will be fought in the not too distant future, if Putin remains in power

If the Ukraine war ends with Putin still in power, then NATO will have to fight Putin at the time and place of his choosing, likely after he reconstitutes the USSR and expands his nuclear arsenal.

[Elessar Zappa]

5. Putin doesn't have the resources

to keep invading countries. He barely has enough for Ukraine.

[Fiendish Thingy]

6. He could easily take one or more of the Baltics.

NATO would be forced to answer the question “is Latvia worth a nuclear war?”

[Polybius]

8. And the answer should remain the same

No.

[Deminpenn]

10. If that's true, then NATO article 5 is worthless

isn't it?

[madville]

12. There is no winning a nuclear war

It’s literally a decision to commit suicide, our commitments to NATO shouldn’t make the decision to do that automatic.

[Gore1FL]

26. Putin knows this, too.

Article V will be honored.

[Calculating]

18. So the world should just cave to Putin on everything because "nukes"

In that case Putin has already won. Cowardice will be the ruin of our world.

[Polybius]

38. If The Mountain (6'9 strongman) challenged me to a fight, am I a coward for running?

When there's no possible way to win, there are other options.

[madville]

11. Nothing is worth a nuclear war

Between the US and Russia, sorry, not willing to sacrifice the lives of billions and destroy the planet just to stop Russia’s regional war with it’s neighbors, even if that means we have to withdraw from/break our NATO commitments.

[Fiendish Thingy]

17. Then Putin shall rule the world. Nt

[Celerity]

32. this is one of the more OTT claims I have seen since this whole nasty adventure started

Then Putin shall rule the world. Nt

Putin can nuke the planet, but there is a subzero chance he can 'rule' the vast bulk of the EU combined with the non EU European nations (hello UK especially), nor China, nor Japan, nor India, nor the US/Canada, nor the vast bulk of South America, nor a shedload of the rest of SE Asia, nor all of Africa, nor the Middle East.

Remove nukes from the equation and NATO could crush Russia, granted at the cost of tens of millions of lives, more than likely. The US alone could do so (especially if the EU gives carte blanche), as could China (provided the West stayed out of it, which is extraordinarily unlikely as the West would not want to have a new nation that was THIS large:





and you could likely fold in Kazakhstan and Mongolia as well to fill in the blanks at that point (and make it over 20% of ALL land on the planet)






Insane nature resources that would rocket China into a superpower larger on almost every level than the US within a decade, 2 max)

[Fiendish Thingy]

33. I was responding to the poster who stated nothing is worth risking a nuclear war

If that statement is accepted, then Putin can act without impediment, because any obstacle might just provoke him to launch nukes.

If the Ukraine war ends and Putin is still in power, then NATO will still have to answer the question: “shall Putin be allowed to terrorize whomever he wishes, or will the civilized world threaten him with nuclear weapons?”

If NATO won’t intervene directly to halt the genocide in Ukraine, what makes you think they would stop Putin from taking the Baltics? A piece of paper called the NATO agreement?

[Celerity]

37. yes, Article 5 will be invoked if he attacks a NATO member, which is why I highly doubt he does

[Fiendish Thingy]

56. How would a piece of paper give NATO the moral courage currently lacking?

Article five isn’t going to serve as a nuclear deterrent to Putin when his nuclear threats have already stopped any NATO intervention in Ukraine.

If Putin isn’t stopped in Ukraine, he will continue with other countries, but with a reconstituted USSR and an expanded nuclear arsenal.

[Celerity]

59. It isn't just a 'piece of paper'. It's a binding treaty, arguably the most important on the planet.

Article 5 has deterred the USSR, then the CIS, and now Russia from direct war with NATO since it was signed.

Sorry, you and the other hawks are not going to get your direct kinetic war between NATO troops and Russian troops unless Putin attacks NATO kinetically first.

If Putin isn’t stopped in Ukraine, he will continue with other countries, but with a reconstituted USSR and an expanded nuclear arsenal.

You have no hard proof of that, it is mere speculation and projection. Also, what countries is he going to obtain an 'expanded nuclear arsenal' from?

These are the only ones with nukes:



Israel isn't going to sell him any, and he sure isn't going to be able to take them from any of them.

South Africa ended its nuclear weapons programme in 1989. All the bombs (six constructed and one under construction) were dismantled and South Africa acceded to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons when South African Ambassador to the United States Harry Schwarz acceded to the treaty in 1991.

[Fiendish Thingy]

72. Putin has threatened to ignore existing treaties and build more nukes

If Russia didn’t have nukes, the US would have already intervened militarily in Ukraine. Putin’s threat to use nukes are the only reason US troops aren’t there now.

Article five is indeed an important document, but, when it comes right down to it, I am sceptical that NATO will ignore Putin’s threats to use nukes and protect the Baltics, based on what we have seen with Ukraine. Yes, it is speculation on my part, but then, so is the opinion that Putin would follow through on his threats to use nukes if the US intervened militarily in Ukraine.

The fact is, if the Ukraine war ends and Putin remains in power, the world will have to deal with his nuclear threats again.

[Justice matters.]

61. Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

That's sadly unfortunate for them.

Ukraine has its own goverment and its own military. They will never let Russia "win" over. It will be a street guerilla until 1) putin dies 2) or he'll deplete his army (and the Russian economy) to the point he'll decide to leave like in Afganistan.

[Fiendish Thingy]

75. But the US isn't staying out of Ukraine because they aren't NATO members

They are staying out because Ukraine is being attacked by a madman with nukes. If Russia didn’t have nukes, or if Ukraine was being attacked by, say, Chechnya or some other non-nuke neighbour, the US, or the UN, Would already have troops on the ground.

[Celerity]

78. Chechnya is part of Russia and is not a neighbour (as in no border, not even close)

[Fiendish Thingy]

84. OK, bad random example, but you get my point. Nt

[Calculating]

19. Ok, just give Putin Europe then

You just want to let him win rather than call his nukes bluff

[MarineCombatEngineer]

29. Wow!!!!

Appeasement much?

[HUAJIAO]

30. Zelenskyy thinks putin is bluffing. I trust his opinion. I hope he is right.

Last edited Sun Mar 13, 2022, 08:13 AM - Edit history (1)

[Polybius]

40. Of course Zelenskyy says that

He wants us in the war.

[EndlessWire]

48. I think that the argument breaks down to two choices

1) Do nothing at all because we are in fear of Putin starting WW3;
2) Stop Putin from annihilating Ukraine.

It sounds good that Biden says we will give to Ukraine everything that they need to win--but we are NOT giving them the air power they need, even when they can fly the planes they could receive.

Life won't be worth living if Xi and Putin are allowed to rule the world. Meantime, Ukraine and all associated countries will be overtaken by Putin. And, anyone who didn't thoughtfully apply or gain membership in NATO before, will not be protected. It is an open invitation to mayhem.

I never thought Putin would completely attempt to own all of Ukraine. But, there he is. He is such a dirty fighter. Cruel and heartless towards men, women, and children, busy destroying a whole nation and culture.

Nobody gives a damn about Ukraine. But, change the logistics to Sweden and Finland, and boy, the attitudes will change! Or, are we gonna just sit and watch while he annihilates those two countries as well? What about Poland, who is NATO, but is sitting there in that advantageous location right next to Kaliningrad? When Biden talks about defending every inch of NATO land, I think he is talking about Poland. As well he should.

But, don't kid yourself. Just because we carefully refrained from creating no-fly zones or otherwise antagonizing Putin, one day that asshole could wake up and decide he wants to shoot a missile at someone's capitol, somewhere in the EU, or Britain, or the USA. Just because we are civilized doesn't mean that he is. He is a liar, seems like a sociopath, and I really don't think he cares.

I am going to hell anyway. I should say that I hope everyday that I hear the news. You know what news I am talking about. I used to hope for that to happen to the Orange Turd. Now, I wish to hear it about Putin. We are in such a pickle, it is hard to think that anything else but that will work.

[Mariana]

53. Life won't be worth living...

Best get over there and start fighting, then. Here's the contact information for the Ukrainian embassy in Washington, DC.

https://www.embassypages.com/ukraine-embassy-washingtondc-unitedstates

[EndlessWire]

60. Are you going?

Wait, let me get my rollator. Okay, now I'm ready! Let's go!

I wouldn't be as much of a liability as you would think. I have history. However, I'm saving myself for the West Coast Defense Force. When Xi comes marching in, I'll be the first one off the truck.

Such a silly remark...and no, life will not be worth living if Xi and Putin have their way.

[Gore1FL]

24. "Easily?" I belive you underestimate the power of the United States, muchless NATO.

As far as number of planes:
The largest air force in the world is the U.S. Air Force.
The second largest air force in the world is the U.S. Army.
The Third largest air force in the world is the U.S. Navy.
I believe the Marines fall a few lower than 4th but are still in the top 10.

I am not exactly sure how they are going to cross the boarder, much less sustain an operation or occupation. Additionally, what are they going to attack with, and how are they going to supply it?

As far as Nuclear war, there would be no reason for NATO to use nukes. It would be preposterous to believe Russia would use nukes over Latvia.

[EndlessWire]

49. I never thought they would shoot up a nuclear reactor

either, but there it is. Or bomb a maternity hospital, but they did...

[Fiendish Thingy]

55. And with all that power, the US still hesitates to use it to defend Ukraine

You think Article five will provide the courage needed to over come the fear that Putin might use nukes if NATO interferes with his invasion of the Baltic states?

[Gore1FL]

57. Of course it does. It has no treaty or obligation do so. We are arming them pretty well, though.

Yes, I believe the United States will live up to it's treaties.

[Fiendish Thingy]

58. We shall find out in due time

If the Ukraine war ends and Putin stays in power, there is no doubt in my mind that Putin will attack NATO, probably the Baltic states. We shall see if a piece of paper Instills the moral courage to fight Putin despite his nuclear threats.

[Justice matters.]

62. Uh...CIC Joe Biden already sent troops & materials (planes)

(with cruise missiles loaded and ready) to NATO countries bordering Russia. As we speak, he sent nuclear submarines sailing in both the Baltic Sea & the Black Sea... pooty will not attack NATO countries with nukes unless he wants to commit suicide and take life on earth down with him.

[Gore1FL]

65. There is a lot of over-estimation of the power of the Russian military on DU. nt

[Justice matters.]

66. Yes. I wish DUers would calm down their anxiety.

I understand it, though.

This speculation that pooty would attack NATO and Biden would not honor our signature because "Latvia is a small" distant country "not worthy" of defending (OUR bases) makes no sense. It's like saying OUR base in Pearl Harbor was not worth defending because Hawaii was "small" (not a State yet at the time). Ridiculous.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

70. Jeez, I remember training with the Russian Army's equivalent of combat engineers

back in the mid 90's, they were a joke, they would show up drunk, their equipment, what they didn't sell for booze/drug money, was in disrepair, their NCO's were brutal towards the conscripts, the officer's didn't give a shit as long as it didn't come back on them.

It would seem that nothing much has changed since then.

[Fiendish Thingy]

74. If that is true, then why isn't the US fighting in Ukraine?

I don’t give a fuck about Ukraine not being in NATO; if Putin won’t risk suicide as you say, then the US should have no hesitation about going into Ukraine to stop Putin’s genocide.

[Justice matters.]

81. You left out... or just ignored the "unless he wants to commit suicide and take life on earth down

"unless he wants to commit suicide and take life on earth down with him."

At this point, nobody knows at what stage his psychosis is and that's why that uncertainty will prevent any direct intervention.

The US is NOT the world's POLICE but if you personally want to go fight there, you can. Thousands of non-Ukrainians already joined Ukraine combatants so be our guest anytime.

[Gore1FL]

64. I doubt article 5 will be tested.

Russia is kind of fucked militarily right now. I am pretty sure NATO can respond to the paper mache' tanks and pile of rocks Putin currently has available to attack with if I am wrong.

[USALiberal]

22. Based on what??

[Gore1FL]

28. Fear and emotion. It's rampant around DU.

I have the benefit of having lived through a good piece of the cold war. We discussed nuclear war, in class, in elementary school. Perhaps I a foolishly calm about this, but I don't see Putin ordering a launch, and if he does, I don't see those orders being followed.

[USALiberal]

31. OK, sorry, I am 100% agree with you. He's not gonna nuke anybody

[Gore1FL]

36. No need to apologize to me. I posted in support of the question in your post.

There is a lot of fear. There is a lot of compassion for those under fire. Those aren't bad traits to have, so I don't want to seem dismissive of them. We have to take this deliberately and steadily. I believe you agree with me on this, based on your posts.

[Kaleva]

67. Have you told your family yet you decided they were expendable?

In the event your course of action does lead to WWIII?


Or maybe you think there's no reason to inform them as one member here told me no one here is silly enough to think they can actually demand action.

[ymetca]

7. Eerily reminiscent

of FDR before Pearl Harbor.

Only this time we are not pretending any neutrality in this widening gyre. Will that help? I pray it does.

[Justice matters.]

63. Japan attacked OUR naval forces there.

pooty didn't attack NATO (yet).

[Deminpenn]

9. I suppose Biden's trying to reassure the stock,

commodities and futures markets, but it sends a terrible signal to Ukrainians, like they aren't worth it.

It renders Biden's remark of "very serious" consequences for Russian use of chemical weapons pretty meaningless, too. He's played out the sanctions, so what's left? Nothing that scares Putin.

At some point, US/NATO have to call Putin's bluff.

[NickB79]

16. Played out the sanctions? It's been 2 weeks

The worst of the sanctions haven't even sunk their teeth in yet. They're meant to exert steady pressure until the Russian economy cracks, which it's already starting to. In another few weeks, every Russian will be feeling the pain severely.

Why do people expect results overnight?

[Calculating]

21. Ukraine will be a wasteland by the time the sanctions work

Putin is taking off the gloves and bombing the cities to the ground

[NickB79]

35. The only way to get immediate action is a NATO invasion

That's it. World War 3. US and Russian troops trading shots. May or may not go nuclear.

Those are our only choices now.

[EndlessWire]

50. At the risk of sounding scared

and emotional, I believe that Putin will use chemical attacks on the civilian population. Then, what are we gonna do? Just watch? Boy, if we thought it was bad in the ME, wait till he does this in Ukraine.

[David__77]

13. That's the right message to send now.

I appreciate his statement.

[FloridaBlues]

15. I agree the right stance to take even tho republicans will not back him up

So glad we have President Biden

[Polybius]

41. The Trump wing might back him up

It's the neo-con wing that I'm afraid of.

[Grasswire2]

20. I'd like to know if that statement was strategized, planned...

....or off the cuff.

We did promise to protect Ukraine if they would give up their nukes. U.S. and Russia both signed that agreement.

Can of worms to admit that we will not protect them now?

[former9thward]

27. We did not make that promise.

We (and Russia and the UK) agreed not to violate Ukraine's borders. We have not. Russia has. But the agreement does not say we would come to Ukraine's aid if someone else violated the borders.

[Polybius]

42. They were incredibly foolish to give up all their nukes

They should have kept a few dozen.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

44. That is true. Agreement to protect but not a treaty. So we don't HAVE

to protect. Strikes me, personally, that we should. It is solely my opinion and I am a loyal Dem and not a hawk. People being slaughtered should take prescidence over all else, IMHO. Monster Putin is not honorable -- if he's going to launch a nuke he will do it regardless of treaties.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

45. UK also signed

[maxsolomon]

23. We'll fight another proxy war, though.

We have to, even to the point of directly supporting an insurgency.

[struggle4progress]

25. "No one really knows what weapons will be used to fight World War III --- but

World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"

[Deuxcents]

34. If not in Ukraine..where?

Putin has threatened the whole world over his dream of mother Russia as it used to be.

[Grasswire2]

51. If not us, who?

If not now, when?

One man is terrorizing the world.

[MoonlitKnight]

39. I like the policy

But don’t think anything should have publicly been taken off the table.

But I also don’t know what allies have insisted upon nor do I know what back channel communications might be. But in general I think it’s a poor decision to phrase it absolutely.

[XiJung]

43. So, it's either WW III or what we have now? n/t

[Happy Hoosier]

46. Rule no. 1 is strategy....

…. Don’t tell your opponent what you are unwilling to do. That is the one thing that baffles me here. What strtegic value does this statement have? It seems it would encourage Putin rather than deter him. WHY?

[Grasswire2]

52. I agree.

Putin must be made to fear U.S. reaction, not know in advance that we will not protect Ukraine from him if our troops are required.

[Deminpenn]

68. Imo, right now Americans are just generally anxious

given 2 years of pandemic restrictions, shortages, inflaction on top of dealing with Trump and his cult. Most Americans just want to get back to peace, quiet and normal. America has always been isolationist when it comes to war, too. Biden's message is meant to reassure Americans, but it sends the wrong message to both Ukraine (they are expendable) and Putin (do what you want).

Biden might've been better off setting a red line, like use chemical weapons and NATO/US will respond. Let Putin decide if he wants that escalation.

[Wingus Dingus]

69. The red line is there, which is attacks on NATO.

Making a red line about chem weapons is what happened with Obama in Syria--that was kind of a mess. Don't declare a red line and then be unprepared to enforce it.

[Happy Hoosier]

77. Nah... just say no intervention at this time...

… but that actions by Russia could cause reconsideration. I can’t imagine why he wants to tie his own hands like that. He’s done well here, but THAT is abad call.

[Deminpenn]

79. Thank you

that's a good suggestion, leaves the door open, if only a crack, and gives Putin something to think about.

[MineralMan]

83. Or, he meant that any war would only not take place in Ukraine.

An attack on a NATO ally, though, might mean some fighting somewhere else. Every word is important.

There might even be something else that is going unsaid, perhaps.

[Stuart G]

47. Remember This: Biden is a "CLASS ACT" with a whole lot of "WORLD EXPERIENCE"

Joe is very smart, and not afraid to ask someone who might have a whole lot of experience too.

I suspect that Joe has talked with his friend Barack about some of these problems. That is who Joe is and,
if talking to someone else to get another point of view then Joe will do it. This is my opinion of Joe Biden,
and I am sticking to it...Always!!!

[Renew Deal]

54. Most accurate WW3 prediction I've seen so far :)

Link to tweet

[In It to Win It]

76. IM DEAD!!! Lmao

[MineralMan]

71. That is his public statement. That is his intention.

However, back in the White House, he is, no doubt, in discussions with his military leaders, intelligence experts, diplomatic leaders, and others. They are talking about actions and potential risks, consequences, and benefits of such actions. While nobody knows for sure what would happen if and when some action is taken, they can come up with informed probability estimates.

Odds are that we don't know exactly where Vladimir Putin is. We probably are working on that bit of knowledge, and Putin knows that. That's why he's trying to keep us from knowing that information.

We can hear what President Biden is saying publicly and officially. We have no idea, though, what discussions are taking place in private. Those discussions are classified at the highest possible level.

As we write on DU and watch the news, there are military, intelligence, and other experts assessing information and planning potential actions.

President Biden is privy to all of that. When he makes a public statement, that is how things are at the moment, in the simplest possible form. There is much more happening, though. I guarantee that.

[Deminpenn]

80. That is exactly why Biden could have added "at this time"

rather than a blanket statement that forecloses military action/US involvement.

[MineralMan]

82. You know, I'll bet he thought of that, so it was deliberate.

Perhaps that's for a reason, somehow. Probably. Maybe.