Our local CBS Affiliate posted something about Muslim calls to prayer

[MineralMan]

in Minneapolis. The city council is making them "legal." Predictably, the comments were, well, predictable. The Trumpers all showed up, decrying this and whining about Christian churches not being allowed to do this. I commented as well, and as you can see below the link:

https://www.facebook.com/CBSMinnesota/posts/10160682855513825

St. Joseph the Worker Catholic Church in Maple Grove rings the Angelus from its bell tower every day at noon, right across from my house. Its bells often ring before Masses, as well. It's very loud, and I'm not a religious person in any way.

However, I don't mind those bells. They represent our freedom of worship. The Same goes for the Adhan, as far as I am concerned. Let the bells and calls to prayer ring out!

In 1967 and 1968, I was stationed at a small USAF base on the Black Sea coast of Turkey. There was a mosque about 100 yards from my barracks window. The Adhan happened five times a day there. Again, it did not bother me. Freedoms are freedoms. Equality of freedoms isn't optional.

[old as dirt]

1. It serms a little wierd that this is even an issue in the 21st century.

Religious cultures have been a part of this country for a long, long time.

Are folks just now realizing this?

[MineralMan]

2. Religious bigotry has also been part of our country for a long, long time.

It's nothing new. In fact, religious bigotry has caused more wars than anything else.

I am an atheist. I have no religious beliefs. However, I don't mind if others have them. That's their choice.

[old as dirt]

3. I'm an atheist as well.

I agree that we all need to respect religious cultures.

[MineralMan]

4. Exactly.

We either have freedoms or we do not. Some would remove them for any belief that is not the same as theirs. That is not freedom. It is tyranny.

[old as dirt]

7. The separation of church and state...

...has historically been very important in my wife's culture.

When afropatianos first reached out to establish diplomatic relations with white folks, they reached out to the Church, and rebuffed and rejected the State's attempt to piggyback. This was only possible because of the separation of Church and State in the 1700s.

They fought the Wars for Catholicism.

In a remarkable moment in the history of slavery, the reprentatives of the Spanish king mobilized slaves against slave owners, and slaves allied with and defended the crown, which had historically promoted slavery.

(page 1)

Slaves also sought freedom extra-legally, and flight was typical across the Pacific lowlands. Some escaped slaves traveled as far as the cities while others formed maroon communities, or palenques, along the margins of the mining region. The most important palenque that was formed within the jurisdiction of Popayán was located east of the Pacific mines, in the Patía River Valley. This palenque was significant because it evolved into a town that, as we shall see in later chapters, was central to the royalist defense of Popayán during the wars of independence. Runaways settled in a place called "El Castigo," taking advantage of the frontier area around the Patía River Valley north of Pasto and east of Barbacoas, which was not colonized by the Spanish until the 1720s. By then, when exploration of the area and land titling began to take place, the palenque was populated mostly by renegade whites and runaway slaves from the mines of Barbacoas and Iscuandé and from the haciendas in the Cauca River Valley. During this period Spanish colonial officials unsuccessfully attempted to conquer or destroy this palenque.

Yet, as occured in the neighboring palenques of Esmeraldes and Baudó, and in other runaway communities in colonial contexts, the inhabitants of El Castigo sought the presense of representatives of the church in their territory. Between 1731 and 1732, they sent three messengers to the city of Pasto to request that a Priest visit Nachao and Nalgua, two towns they had established, each of which had built a church within its boundries. This request exposed their strategy of aligning their community with the Catholic precepts that were central to social and political life in Popayán.

The Quito Audiencia tried to take advantage of the maroons' interest in the church, attempting to co-opt the palenque into establishing civil government in the area in exchange for a pardon from the state. The runaway community resisted the audencia's attempt to include them within its juristiction (reducción) but succeeded in securing a permanent priest for their settlement. Morover, the Popayán municipal council conceeded their right to name two people from the palenque to "administer justice in the name of His Magisty to all the individuals who currently are congregated in those towns," with the condition that they not admit any more runaways to the community, detaining the fugitives and informing the Popayán authorities to their presence. Thus, the maroons of Patía not only used religion for the purpose of community building; they also seem to have preferred to establish a relationship with the church rather than with the civil authorities.

In the Hispanic context, the crown promoted a corporate organization of society, and thus collective rights could be secured to a greater extent than individual rights. This constituted an incentive for enslaved and free blacks to link their legal strategies to the colonial corporate logic. Indeed, the politics of freedom and community building among free people of African descent pivoted around the struggle to gain recognition, aquire political rights, and overcome racist assumptions of the larger society. During the eighteenth century, those goals coincided with the crown's interest in integrating the maroons into society - to "reduce" the community of runaways to legitimate towns - by negociating and extending certain concessions in exchage for their professed loyalty. The integration of free blacks in to civil life reminds us that maroon communities were forged within the colonial would and not outside it.

In Popayán, free and enslaved blacks of African origin and descent upheld justice through their underlying pattern of engagement with imperial legal institutions. This was visible in instances when, as in Patía, maroons negociated their conditions of integration into colonial society. Yet legal freedom was not the only goal of the enslaved. As we will see next, in the Pacific mining region, garnering greater rights within the institution of slavery may have been their most realistic goal.

(pages 104 - 106)

Indian and Slave Royalists in the Age of Revolution: Reform, Revolution, and Royalism in the Northern Andes, 1780-1825

https://www.amazon.com/Indian-Slave-Royalists-Age-Revolution/dp/1107084148

[MineralMan]

8. Fascinating!

[old as dirt]

9. In Colombia, ...

...bambuco patiano is considered la musica de guerra (the music of war).

Of course, not all music is the music of war. That's a cultural thing. It's likely related to their religion, which is a religion of war.

Historically, Music, Religion and War have been intimately connected throughout the centuries.

RELIGIOSIDAD AFROPATIANA
Funerales de Angelitos: Arrullos

https://repository.javeriana.edu.co/bitstream/handle/10554/6623/tesis149.pdf;sequence=1

From page 44:

El Palenque del El Castigo

"Stolen from Africa, brought to America,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival"

[MineralMan]

10. Yes. Military units have bands, and chaplains, too.

It's all really interesting.

[old as dirt]

14. "cultures of resistance"

La cultura afropatiana is one of Colombia's "cultures of resistance", where nonviolence is a lifestyle.

Putting the "magic" into "magical realism" since 1536.

Invisibles: Las Guerillas del Patia

(Audio-generated closed captions translated into the language of your choice.)




Vivimos del Mate (page 60)

https://www.amazon.com/Vivimos-del-mate-testimonios-afropatianas/dp/9587321979



Parentesco, co-parentesco y clientismo en el surgimiento de las guerrillas en el Valle del Patía, 1536 - 1811

by Francisco U. Zuluaga

https://historiayespacio.univalle.edu.co/index.php/historia_y_espacio/article/view/6785/9276 (pdf)

La tozudez y la fiereza con que los guerreros patianos de­fendieron el estandarte realista, entronizaron al Patía y sus gentes en las categorfas de lo más bárbaro, cruel y salvaje que haya podido darse en la historia de Colombia.

-------------(via DeepL)--------------

The stubbornness and fierceness with which the warriors from Patía defended the royalist banner, enthroned the Patía and its people in the categories of the most barbaric, cruel and savage that could have occurred in the history of Colombia.

[kiri]

25. freedom from noise pollution?

I side with the city. Noise pollution is a great burden on civilization. Where is my freedom from noise and freedom to enjoy natural sounds? Here we have a couple of pyscho cops who turn on their sirens just to get to donuts, even at 4 AM when there is no other vehicle within 10 miles. Sirens have got much more powerful, now often exceeding 130 dB. And polluting places a mile or more away. Worthlessly.

And leaf blowers. And rattling trucks hitting potholes.

Church bells sounding over lakes in Switzerland are quaint and are without the huge amplifiers of prayer calls.

[panader0]

48. Move to the country side. It's very quiet where I live, except for the coyotes.

[hunter]

59. Oh how I despise the cops marking their territories with their sirens.

Like dude, it's 4 A.M. the streets are empty and you have to race to some minor crime scene or car accident with your siren on high???

[Traildogbob]

12. Agnostic here

Kinda believe a paramecium or euglena may have been creators of life here. Damn they must be embarrassed to what their Petri dish of soup evolved to.

[old as dirt]

15. Do they even know what has become of their creation?

Kinda believe a paramecium or euglena may have been creators of life here. Damn they must be embarrassed to what their Petri dish of soup evolved to.

I've heard that the Omniscience of Unicellular Lifeforms may be somewhat overrated. Maybe it was an old Star Trek episode.

[Traildogbob]

23. Actually

I must correct myself. Moneran’s where before the protista’s. And we do not know which space rock brought em here. But, none the less, their great great great great great great great great great great great great ancestress have to live with the embarrassment. But they WILL win after one of their single cellular cousins wipe out the evolutionary wrong turn.
Or, we came from space travelers that stopped by to empty their space ship septic tanks, on a vacant spinning rock with water to dump in. Water pollution is an intergalactic problem. Dump the shit in the water ways.

[old as dirt]

30. They're made out of meat

[Traildogbob]

33. Fantastic

Thanks for that. Made my morning.

[old as dirt]

44. Given their disdain for meat, ...

...one has to wonder what these critters from outer space would think of such seemingly mundane human religious practices such as abigeato (cattle rustling).

I can just imagine them shaking their heads to each other and saying, "Holy Cow! They're made out of meat, too!".

[Traildogbob]

50. 😁😁

[hunter]

60. I like my meat.

[old as dirt]

62. Your name gave you away

I like my meat.

Does your religion support cattle rustling, too?

“Thou shalt steal thy neighbors’ cattle.”

[Dustlawyer]

16. I believe it is because the religious Right wants everyone to have the freedom granted by the

Constitution as long as everyone lives and believes exactly how they do.

[old as dirt]

21. Yeah, they seem a little weird, too.

the religious Right

[multigraincracker]

41. They like to say this is a Christian Nation and that it is

the majority religion. I say the largest denomination is Roman Catholic. So, does that mean this is a Catholic Nation?

[hlthe2b]

5. I worked for awhile in the Middle East and the call to prayers in the wee morning was always

somewhat soothing to me. Amidst the loud traffic sounds of a Riyadh or Cairo. that was a warm, regular diversion.

I have nothing to say to these intolerant a'holes except that I'd find their voluntary immigration to a totalitarian alternative country like Russia to be quite welcome. I'd gladly help throw them a going away (permanently) party

[MineralMan]

6. Yes. It didn't take long for me to get used to calls to prayer.

They were just part of the sounds of the day there in Turkey. Same thing with church bells. The Presbyterian church I attended as a kid played bells every noon, too. Time for lunch.

It was right across the street from the high school I attended.

When I became an adult, I discovered that I could no longer believe any supernatural stuff. Others can, I guess. So, the bells ring on and the mosque has a tower for someone to sing the call to prayer.

[KPN]

11. Good on you!

[JCMach1]

13. Skip the call to prayer fights... It's hella annoying if you live next to a mosque

Or have an office, etc. Make them go traditional with a real person and not artificial speakers. You tune it out, but it can be annoying. My office was super close and the school mosque used students and the imam. Some days you would be like seriously someone get Ahmad some tea or something. (I realize most mosques here use canned calls to prayer). However it was a lot more personal that way. No autotuned sameness

If you really want to build bridges invite some RW peeps to Iftar... A religious tradition from the Muslim world Americans will love.

Eat all night!? Sleep all day!? Damn right

[MineralMan]

57. Did you miss reading my post? I lived 100 yards from a mosque in

Turkey for 15 months. My barracks window faced the mosque. Its minaret had a real person AND loudspeakers. I got used to it in a week. No big deal. We all did.

[JCMach1]

63. Depends on the person I guess... The loud speaker versions are just

Uggg... Depending on morning acoustics I would get crack of dawn wake up calls 6 or 7 mosques bouncing off my villa walls

Only non-annoying one was the real humans at my University.

[Moostache]

17. I share this opinion 100%

Freedom of religion is a tent pole for liberal democracy. It must be held sacrosanct even by those of us who do not share the beliefs or traditions for on the day we no longer defend the rights of all, we will be under the boot of a few.

[stopdiggin]

32. for the most part ..

but it's not hard at all to become a little concerned where the 'rights' of some - appear to supersede the rights and protections of others. Religion must remain a tent pole - and not a trump card.

[erronis]

18. Might you have been in Sinop?

My F-I-L was stationed there way back when.

[MineralMan]

22. No. I was stationed at TUSLOG Det. 3-2 in Samsun, Turkey.

Sinop was primarily staffed by Army personnel. I was part of the USAF Security Service (USAFSS).

[harumph]

19. I am not certain that I agree that verbalized calls

to prayer broadcast over a loudspeaker - are exactly analogous
to church bells.

As I said (not certain) - have to think on this ...

Welp, MM I thought about it and I disagree that they're analogous.

The English translation of the adhan is:

God is Great! God is Great! God is Great! God is Great!
I bear witness that there is no god except the One God.
I bear witness that there is no god except the One God.
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God.
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God.
Hurry to the prayer. Hurry to the prayer.
Hurry to salvation. Hurry to salvation.
God is Great! God is Great!
There is no god except the One God.


I'm sorry, but fuck this.

I'd be as put out if the caller yelled - "Come to Jesus! He's the one that'll toast yer buns!

I'm agnostic BTW.

[MineralMan]

24. Yeah? Well, OK, then.

[old as dirt]

52. Anything else you don't like folks talking about?

verbalized calls

[progree]

20. I'm happy that it says there will be some limitations --

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2022/03/26/minneapolis-council-oks-mosques-to-broadcast-public-call-to-prayer/

While mosques are now able to broadcast outside their doors, Osman says there will be some limitations – the call will be kept to 70 decibels or less and will not be broadcast during prayers both early in the morning and late at night.

I'm sure some will be shocked at this "unconstitutional" regulation on "religious liberty".

I think we can all accomodate each other. I have problems with Christian church bells too - but fortunately never have lived near one.

To me, religious "freedom" is not a license to be a nuisance, or to limit others' rights (as in the many "religious liberty" cases that end up at the RW Supreme Court, but I realize that I'm not a wonderfully wonderful "Mr. Cool" type of progressive).

[MineralMan]

28. Well, the church across the street doesn't ring its bells for

the 6:30 AM Friday Mass, either. Today, I heard the bells at 8:30 and 10:30, just before Mass started. There will be another Mass at 5 PM, when the bells will ring again. Normally, they don't ring the bells at Noon on Sunday.

Like I said, I don't mind the bells. They're quite loud, but never mind. Like most things, one gets used to them, since they're predictable. They might bother some of the people in my residential development, but not me, nor my wife.

I don't mind Muslim calls to prayer, either. I also tolerate the regular sirens that pass by from ambulances and police vehicles. I live on a busy arterial street. Noise is part of the environment around me. I accommodate it. My townhome faces the street, which is about 100 feet from my front wall. I knew that when I bought the place. We sort of enjoy living on a busy street.

I don't consider religions to be a nuisance, despite over 50 years of being an atheist.

[progree]

37. Ambulances and police sirens are different. They serve a public safety function

We are not an agrarian society where everyone sleeps at night and works during the day. I've had my share of shift work.

"I don't consider religions to be a nuisance"

I didn't say I did either. But when it comes to making a racket, especially an unnecesseary one, then I do.

[David__77]

26. It strikes me as excessive.

And unnecessary. I would not support it where I live.

[MineralMan]

34. Well, see, I think all religion is unnecessary and sometimes excessive.

However, I don't insist that others think as I do, and can accommodate other people's beliefs.

I deal with daily bells from a Catholic church, despite my issues with that religious organization. However, I do not insist that they desist, because I believe in the freedom to worship, if that fills a need for you.

Same with Islam. I'm not a fan, really. Some followers of that faith have done some terrible things, too.

Nor am I a fan of fundamentalist Christian churches. Yet, there are plenty of those nearby, as well. The traffic to them on Sundays can be very annoying. I won't even mention the harm that fundamentalist Christianity has done.

It's all a matter of tolerance, really. I do not have to agree with something to tolerate its existence or popularity. That applies to individuals as well as organizations.

Within reason, religious organizations are free to worship as they please, even if their bells or calls to prayer are somewhat annoying. I'm sure I do things that annoy them sometimes, too.

[David__77]

36. I understand.

And would like to keep an open mind on the subject- I haven’t researched the full scope of rationale for the bells/broadcast of prayers. My initial thought is that there are other means to communicate to adherents that don’t impact non-adherents.

[MineralMan]

51. Well, the mosques in Minneapolis won't be doing the call to prayer

early in the morning or the last one of the day. Similarly, churches that use bells generally don't ring them when people are normally sleeping.

It wasn't always so, though. In past history, Catholic churches have rung bells several times per day for various reasons. In fact, the tolling of the bells was the only timekeeping method most people had prior to the 19th century. So the bells also served a community purpose.

These days, of course, other methods could be used, like texts send to members of the congregation to remind them that services were about to start. For all I know, some churches do things like that. Today, the ritual bell ringing has more of a traditional meaning than anything else.

I mentioned the Angelus. That is the lowest-sounding bell (the largest one) rung slowly three times, about a second apart. That is repeated twice, for a total of 9 bell peals. There is a symbolism to the Angelus, related to the Trinity and to the Rosary. Often, it is followed by the ringing of the other available bells, following a fixed sequence that is more or less musical. More less musical in the case of the church across the street from me.

I looked it up when I first heard the bells from my nearby church.

Other bell-ringing rituals occur at weddings and funerals. Easter is coming, so I suspect there will be a different peal of the bells to celebrate that from my local church.

Symbolism now, but once upon a time, church bells were an important communications device. Fires, storms, invading armies, and other important things were also rung on the bells, as needed. We have other methods now, but church bells had many purposes at one time.

Same thing with the Adhan, or call to prayer. At one time, the person singing it was a communicator. People took notice when the call went out. Again, that dates back to a time before people had clocks and watches, much less cell phones. Now, of course, there's an phone app for the call to prayer, and your phone can point accurately toward Mecca so you can get yourself oriented properly. It's important for Muslims to face Mecca when praying, for some reason or another. But, tradition means that people who follow Islam want to hear the Adhan from their Mosque.

[gulliver]

27. It's all morphing to "listen to me" sound spam and should be regulated or simply illegal

One person's music, bells, or religious calls are another person's noise pollution. I'm 100% behind people's religious rights, but this type of loudspeaker announcement of anything shouldn't be legal. No bells, no nothing. It's rude, arrogant, sound spam. Why can't I "sound spam" Kiss tunes out over loudspeakers on my roof for the benefit of my neighbors? Free speech!

The sound spectrum is a shared resource. My neighbors and I aren't even allowed, for example, to mow our lawns outside certain time periods. Sounds in the spectrum of sufficient volume to reach a whole township's radius should be limited to safety-related concerns like tornadoes.

[MineralMan]

35. Well, I am surrounded by sounds.

Wherever I go, really. From traffic noise to the honking of passing geese and barking of neighborhood dogs. I make noises myself that add to the general cacophony.

Where I am, the trash and recycling collection trucks come at about 5 AM. They're noisy as can be, too. The sirens of emergency vehicles interrupt my peace multiple times per day on the busy street near my home. Someone is in need of help somewhere.

Bells? Calls to prayer? I can deal with those just fine, thanks. It's all the sounds of the community.

[gulliver]

39. I think we agree on emergency sounds and traffic noise...good and bad respectively

Natural sounds too. I love them. Geese honking, good. Coyotes, owls, whip-poor-wills, crickets, tree frogs, cicadas? Good.

Neighbor's dogs barking at the deer or at each other at 3am. Give me a minute to think about that one, but we are neighbors, I guess.

Let's narrow the subject to "broadcasting sound," though. That's what bells and prayer calls amount to: sound broadcasts. That turns the issue into a common resource issue, and we all know what happens to common resources that aren't regulated. They get destroyed, usually after a whole lot of fuss and stink (which your OP signals).

And, I'll admit, I like the bells in my area and the "other sounds of community." But we do have concepts like zoning to keep the things that one person loves from ruining what the other person does.

[MineralMan]

42. Hmm...well, the mosques in the Twin Cities are pretty much

all located in places where large numbers of Muslims have chosen to live. For example, there are none in the suburb where I live, because there are few Muslims living in that suburb. Instead, we have churches, like the Catholic church across the street from my house. Services at that church are well-attended, too, I must say. I do not attempt to turn left onto the 4-lane arterial street by my house when people are arriving for services or leaving. A minor inconvenience, but very predictable. So, that church apparently serves many people in my community. Its bells are one of the sounds of the community, then.

When I was stationed in Turkey, the community and city near my tiny USAF base was almost entirely Muslim, and there was a mosque in every neighborhood, including the one on the other side of the fence from my barracks. There, and in Muslim neighborhoods in the Twin Cities, the calls to prayer were part of the sounds of the community, as well. If I lived near a mosque, I suppose I might hear those calls to prayer, but I don't.

Truthfully, most of the people objecting to those calls to prayer in Minneapolis live nowhere near a mosque, so they'll never hear them. They are objecting for other reasons, you see. They are objecting simply because there are Muslim communities somewhere in their city or somewhere somewhere. They are not objecting to being disturbed by the sound, but by the existence of followers of Islam living anywhere.

So, in the end, Muslim calls to prayer will be heard only in communities where there are populations of Muslims in enough quantity to support a mosque nearby. In those places, that will be part of the sounds of the community. Elsewhere, some of the sounds of the community might be the bells of a Catholic church or a noisy schoolyard.

Again, most of those objecting will never hear the call to prayer. Their objections aren't about the sound.

[gulliver]

53. I do see your point

I get that this latest is just another culture war, anti-Muslim wedge issue from the Republicans. I remember when Republicans were up in arms about a mosque being built in New York after 911. Republicans have lost their minds.

There's a great old song by The Browns called "The Three Bells" which I'll bet you've heard. Lovely song. It's not hard to imagine a Muslim version with perhaps prayer calls instead of bells. But how do we have "a little valley town" anymore where basically everyone likes the same thing? Pretty difficult, even basically illegal when push comes to shove. So, it's hard to preserve enclaves of any sort these days. My own neighborhood is multi-everything.

That's where regulation comes in or just silence when it comes to sound broadcasts. I don't know about short range broadcasts like ice cream trucks (which I resist but wouldn't if they were pizza or hot wings trucks).

[MineralMan]

55. Well, there are still "little valley towns," but most of us

don't live in them. Mostly, we live near large population centers with all of their problems and attractions.

The mosques in Minneapolis are cooperating with scheduling and sound levels, of course. That's not really an issue at all. I can guarantee that my neighboring church bells exceed the 70 dB level those mosques have to stay below, though. More like 90 dB from my balcony deck. But my place is literally across the street from that church and its bells. Never mind that it's a 4-lane arterial street. it's still only maybe 100 yards away. Loud.

Fortunately, our townhomes have good soundproofing. However, during good weather, we have windows open, so it does get louder. It's amazing how easily we adapt to noises that we can't avoid.

[old as dirt]

38. Religion and Music. The devil is in the details.

One person's music, bells, or religious calls are another person's noise pollution.

Por eso en el Valle del Patía el violín y el diablo cohabitan transvalorados creativamente. Porque viven con ellos, en relaciones de uno y otro con los que interactúan. Elaboran e interpretan el violín, hacen música en una relación íntima espiritual, cósmica, con el alma de todos, en relación con la naturaleza, los seres no humanos, con el diablo, con los sonidos del agua, con los otros, en una relación musical colectiva, en la laboriosidad de su trabajo de ser agricultores. Soy agricultor ante todo, primero fui bailarín y luego pasé a ser músico y ahí me quedé componiendo canciones, dice Virgilio Llanos (2010), compositor de la agrupación Son del Tuno.

De ahí que, para algunos el diablo a veces es malo y a veces es bueno. "El diablo me da risa", nos comentó Lola Grueso, la maestra de la escuela Dos Ríos de Galíndez, Patía (2013), pero a medida que avanza en la conversación va modificando los conceptos:

--------(via DeepL)--------

That is why in the Patía Valley the violin and the devil cohabit creatively transvalued. Because they live with them, in relations of one and the other with those they interact with. They elaborate and interpret the violin, they make music in an intimate spiritual, cosmic relation, with the soul of all, in relation with nature, the non-human beings, with the devil, with the sounds of the water, with the others, in a collective musical relation, in the laboriousness of their work of being farmers. I am a farmer first and foremost, first I was a dancer and then I became a musician and there I stayed composing songs, says Virgilio Llanos (2010), composer of the group Son del Tuno.

Hence, for some, the devil is sometimes bad and sometimes good. "The devil makes me laugh," said Lola Grueso, the teacher of the Dos Ríos de Galíndez school in Patía (2013), but as the conversation progresses, she modifies the concepts:

(page 154)

Las almas de los violines ‘negros’

http://repositorio.unicauca.edu.co:8080/handle/123456789/134

[Lucky Luciano]

29. When I was in Middle Eastern countries, they did the calls to prayer of course.

Every day.

First one at 5 in the morning.

It was awful, but that’s their thing and I have no say of course.

Probably ok to do one day per week after 9am. If they did the 5am thing every day near me, I would be very unhappy. Not sure if that is what us being discussed in the link….guess I could check!

[MineralMan]

31. No, they're not going to be doing the morning call to prayer.

Nor the last one of the day.

They certainly did in Turkey, though. Again, 100 yards from my window in the barracks. It became a familiar thing very quickly and I stopped noticing it most of the time.

Here, the bells from the church across the street remind me that it's time for my lunch break.

We have lots of Muslims in the Twin Cities of Minnesota. Mosques don't ring bells. They use another method to announce times for worship.

[Lucky Luciano]

45. Never experienced church bells, but do know of them obviously.

When I was in grad school at UCLA, they did ring bells every hour on the hour, but I was only on campus during business hours.

I lived next to a big mosque in NYC for 10 years. They only got loud at Ramadan which I think is totally fine and not an imposition. I did have one problem with them though. They double parked (mostly taxis) on entire blocks over 4 square blocks…especially on Friday. I guess this was tacitly allowed by the city. This pissed me off with the traffic it caused…but only over the two years when I was driving home from work exhausted on Fridays. They should do what everyone else does and pay for a garage.

[MineralMan]

47. New York City Is a Traffic Disaster All the Time!

And noise? The sounds of honking on the streets of NYC are unmatched anywhere else I have ever been. I've never driven in the city, and rely on the subways and taxis when I'm there. The street noises there have kept me awake in my hotel many times on business trips there. It is a wonder to behold.

So, I'm not surprised that the streets near that mosque are jammed up with double-parked vehicles. Most NYC streets are that way a lot of the time, it seems. It's the nature of the place. People pay more for a parking spot inside than I have ever paid for the rent of living or office space in California.

[Hekate]

40. Kickin' this

[MineralMan]

43. Thanks. I appreciate the kick!

It's been an interesting thread.

As I posted a bit upthread, most of the people here who are objecting to the Muslim's call to prayer in US cities live nowhere near any mosque and will not hear the calls in the first place. That sound is not what they are objecting to. The objection is to something different, I think. The same is true for the comments on that Facebook post. Mosques in Minneapolis, the city under discussion, are located in neighborhoods with significant populations of Muslims. In all other neighborhoods no such sound will be heard.

Indeed, many of those objecting in the Facebook post and probably on the WCCO website also live nowhere near a mosque. There really aren't that many of them in the Twin Cities. Their objections are to the very existence of Islam and mosques.

[Marthe48]

46. A teacher I know

kindly posted on fb that practicing Muslim students observing The Fast of Ramadan might be hungry or dehydrated. Ramadan will be starting on 4/1/22 to 4/30/22

I thought it was so thoughtful of her to post the information.

[MineralMan]

49. Yes, that's coming right up, isn't it?

[brooklynite]

54. I would object

Church clocks are an element of time keeping, not a religious chant, and don’t occurs at 5 in the morning.

[MineralMan]

56. The mosques won't be doing it at 5 AM.

The bells at my nearby church are not for time keeping. They are for announcing services, actually, and for ritual purposes. There will be another long peal just before the 5 PM mass. It is a "Come to Mass" signal, not a clock.

Having a wedding. The bells will be ringing. A funeral will mean a long, slow pealing of the big bell afterward. It's all about the rituals of Catholicism.

Fortunately, it's not a monastery across the street. If it were, there would be way more bells. I've lived near a monastery.

As I mentioned, I have also lived 100 yards from a mosque with a minaret and a guy with a loudspeaker in it. I got used to that five times a day, no problem, just as I get used to other predictable sounds and noises.

[brooklynite]

58. Most churches do not use chimes for regligious calls.

The Catholic Church across from me plays them at noon and 6 PM: neither are mass times.

[MineralMan]

61. I'm explaining what the church across the street does.

It's the only one with bells near me. Their only timed ringing is the weekday and Saturday Noon Angelus.

The rest of their bell ringings are made before Masses or for weddings and funerals. I suppose individual churches use their bells as they please. I don't think there are necessarily any prescribed rules, even for Catholic churches. The one I'm talking about has a set of 5 bells, which limits the musicality of what they can do. They don't swing, and have electrically operated ringing mechanisms.

That church seems quite proud of its bells. they are visible in the belfry.

Here's an explanation of the use of the Angelus bell-ringing:

https://www.thecompassnews.org/2020/06/how-the-bells-call-us-to-prayer/

[Tickle]

64. I don't live near any religious places but

I do live two houses up from train tracks and one goes by every two hours 24/7. I’m used to it 😁