Anyone minimizing the harm of Chris Rock's "joke" needs to learn more about alopecia,

[pnwmom]

and the pain it has brought to many. And one of the immune-related, permanent forms is suffered by 15% of Black women -- far more than the alopecia areata most white people have heard about (which affects less than 1% of the US population.)

Rock knew what he was doing. There was no reason to suggest Jada should play GI Jane except that she's shaving her head now, in response to her alopecia. Will didn't immediate react, probably because the thought of his wife playing a soldier struck him as funny. And then he realized Rock was making light of her baldness -- and he lost it.

Here's a girl who killed herself a week ago, whose mother said was being bullied for her alopecia.

https://www.wndu.com/2022/03/17/candlelight-vigil-12-year-old-north-side-middle-school-student/

Family members said Rio Allred died by suicide earlier this week after they claim she was bullied at school.

SNIP

Ball claims her daughter was bullied multiple times.

“She had alopecia, which is an autoimmune disease that made her body attack her hair follicles and made her hair fall out...She started this school year with a wig, a beautiful wig. Within the first few weeks kids were ripping it off of her head. In front of the whole class...Would smack her upside the head in the hallway,” Ball said.

Ball said she addressed the bullying with a social worker and counselor.

“And I asked them specifically ‘please get in touch with the parents’. I don’t know if that happened. There was no follow up and three weeks later here we are,” Ball said.

Link to tweet

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/28/well/live/alopecia-hair-loss.html

A type of hair loss common in the Black community is traction alopecia, which occurs when hair has been pulled tight for too long.

Other people lose hair because their immune system starts attacking their hair follicles in what is known as autoimmune alopecia. Autoimmune forms of alopecia can be caused by discoid lupus erythematosus, which can lead to sores and scarring on the face and scalp. Central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia is another immune-related condition that causes scalp scarring and permanent hair loss. C.C.C.A. almost exclusively arises among Black women between ages 30 and 55, and research suggests it may afflict as many as 15 percent of such women.

Another common form of autoimmune alopecia is alopecia areata. When people talk about alopecia, they are often referring to this type, which affects one in every 500 to 1,000 people in the United States. It’s unclear what kind of alopecia Pinkett Smith has, but her appearance suggests it is alopecia areata, said Dr. George Cotsarelis, a dermatologist at the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania.

[Hekate]

1. I'm not trashing this thread

Unlike all the others.

[xocetaceans]

2. Regardless, Will Smith was out of line to physically assault Chris Rock. n/t

[FreeState]

4. He also is a hypocrite

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/tqq5e7/will_smith_making_fun_of_arsenio_halls_band/

[robleb]

23. Yes

to this.

[pnwmom]

5. I never said Will should have hit anyone. But I'm tired of people focusing all their anger on him,

rather than the comic who started all this with his hurtful joke about Jada.

Rock's hurtful action was planned ahead and purposeful. Smith's slap was a temporary loss of control. But I don't give Rock extra credit because he didn't go as far as to break a law.

[speak easy]

34. How many Best Actor Awards go to African American men?

Will wrecked what should have been a night of achievement. Instead of a proud acceptance speech, we got a display of self pity. Little will be remembered except him losing his temper.

[pnwmom]

82. Not self-pity. Anger to see a loved one hurt. n/t

[xocetaceans]

104. You're correct. You did not say that Rock should have been hit by Smith.

In an ideal world, comedy would not be at anyone's expense. There are other forms of comedic remarks that are funny.

Being the target of a remark as the result of a comedian's act is different than being the target of the repeated remarks of bullies. Constantly repeated remarks have the potential for real damage. The internet manifests this sort of repetition seemingly semi-frequently. That is definitely one of its bad aspects.

Having a high profile while attending a show with a comedian has inherent risks. The common advice is not to sit in the front row.

It's not clear that Rock is or has been targeting Smith with constantly repeated jokes. (The likelihood of that might just have been increased, but (so far) Rock seems to have more class than to subscribe to the "screw them if they can't take a joke" approach by now bringing out verbal riposte after verbal riposte.)

So, yes, the joke was at Jada Smith's expense. But Will Smith had no right at all to do what he did. Additionally, he had all the time it took him to walk up to Rock to reconsider: that was far from instantaneous.

Anyway, given that people are generally free to speak, physical violence is by far the greatest transgression in that incident. There can be no "magic words" that instantly provoke someone to violence unless those initial words actually are a threat to the person being addressed.

Rock threatened no one. To assign him blame is essentially victim-blaming. If Smith had said something after reaching the stage that was a verbal retort, he could have bested Rock at his game - comedy. Smith did not. He escalated the situation and attacked. That is absolutely clear.

So, to assign Rock blame for being the victim of the physical assault is completely wrong. Basically, Smith richly deserves all the anger. Smith probably should have been thrown out of the ceremony as a consequence of his actions.

[pnwmom]

105. Jada's husband was up for Best Actor. Should they have not sat in the front row?

Rock was the victim of Smith, yes. I don't disagree.

But Jada was the victim of Rock's joke. And that matters, too. She wasn't attending a comedy show -- she was there to support her husband, an Oscar hopeful.

How about the Oscars tell their comedians not to engage in insult comedy. It isn't the only form of comedy, despite what many seem to think.

[xocetaceans]

116. No, I agree with your suggestion. Comedy can be just as good without aiming it at anyone.

It would be a lot more civil. It might make the comedians work harder, but that's what they are usually good at, if they are at that level.

The insult "comedy" can be relegated to roasts.

So, yes, good suggestion.

The front row is usually where people get picked on at comedy clubs: my remark was more figurative in the sense that one has to know that sort of joke is possibly coming if one is really high profile in such a situation. They were going to be high profile no matter where they were in the audience.

[pnwmom]

118. Thank you for understanding. I think the other kind of comedy is more work,

but that's the only kind I'd pay money to see. I'd just as soon not have to watch it at the Oscars.

[Duncan Grant]

3. Let's not minimize Will Smith's criminal assault while we're at it.

Lest we be complicit in the attack on an awards show presenter.

[pnwmom]

9. I'm more focused on the harm done to Jada, and to millions of others

who suffer from alopecia.

Both of the men were wrong, but one of the men's actions was planned and deliberate.

[whathehell]

10. Yeah. as long as we don't minimize Chris Rock's cruel mockery of

a woman's painful disease.

[uponit7771]

17. +1, gob smacking people are somewhat equating the two

[txwhitedove]

106. Why? The words of abuse can ring louder and longer in the ear than a slap.

[Celerity]

42. Yes, and let's stop co-opting us black women via problematic 'helpless victim' memes that are then

used to weaponise (via unproven projections) other problematic discursive-limiting ends.

Jada is more than strong enough to have literally cucked (and I mean LITERALLY) Will (who is, I do admit, a beta, thus making it much easier). I highly, highly doubt that she cannot handle Chris Rock's (still no definitive proof Rock was even having a go specifically about alopecia, yet that is now being treated as gospel by some) foolishness. Pluuuuuease, smdh.

I see a whole lot of contrived fragility being attempted to be used as an emotional template, to be then transferred onto Jada, thus making her into the proverbial (and patriarchal in nature) 'damsel in distress' in need of her knight (and what a poor one she has) to 'save' her.

[Solomon]

50. Thank you!

[uponit7771]

64. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾 Talked to wifey and niece about this and they said same thing !! Also, WS ...

... wasn't "defending" no one he got caught laughing at a joke Jada didn't think was funny and went off to save his own ass.

[Dorian Gray]

94. That was Kareem's take on substack

And I think it’s a good one.

I said this in another thread, so I’ll repeat it here. I don’t understand what the actual insult was. GI Jane? Like that’s back when every single person was hot for Demi Moore, and Look at how much she worked out to get even hotter when she was bald????? Like she can kick ass, take names, and still be hot?

While I don’t relish reducing women to hotness, I don’t see what the insult was here.

(And is it even clear that Rock wrote the joke and planned it?).

[Duncan Grant]

101. This is one of the most insightful posts made about the aftermath.

You put into words what I’ve been dying to say. This is a post to absorb and reflect upon.

[pinkstarburst]

53. It is not minimizing to point out

that there were two people who acted badly that night.

This does not have to be dumbed down like an after school cartoon special with one villain and a superhero. There is not one person who was right and one who was wrong. Both Will Smith and Chris Rock behaved terribly. A lot of focus has been placed on Smith's behavior because people are more aware that physical violence is unacceptable. Many people (as evidenced by the numerous uneducated posts we saw yesterday on DU) are unaware of the psychological trauma and bullying women and children with alopecia endure. They do not understand the context for why what Chris Rock said was so harmful. That's what the OP is trying to educate people about. No one is saying what Will Smith did was okay. Both men behaved badly.

[Duncan Grant]

93. I say assault and violence is a greater offense than being a comedian.

What’s clear to me is I don’t have to surmise Will Smith’s criminal assault. There’s no lens to enhance or distort his intent and impact. We have a chronology, evidence and agreement. The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences has condemned Smith and is conducting a formal review. (Had a member of the generally public transgressed the event, the results would have been completely different. That’s another story…)

I can also see how Chris Rock did not escalate, maintained his composure and facilitated an international audience who witnessed physical abuse and trauma with their own two eyes.

At this time, I cannot get past the deranged behavior of Will Smith. Chris Rock wasn’t dangerous or flipped-out, quite the contrary. The two are not equal.

[pnwmom]

132. Thank you. Both men were wrong. I'm on Team Jada and Team Alopecia. n/t

[we can do it]

141. By all means let's only worry about the men.

[Duncan Grant]

142. Isn't this known as pointless perseveration?

I’ll stand by my posts, thanks. Please bookmark and revisit in a year to see how accurate I’ve been.

[msongs]

6. chris rock showed us the kind of human he is, and he's made a career of it nt

[BlackSkimmer]

36. Whatever you do, don't listen to old clips of Don Rickles.

Or Joan Rivers. Or Kathy Griffin.

Or any of the comics who’ve skewered tfg or numerous other politicians.

[Celerity]

41. +1000

[CrackityJones75]

63. There are those among us that are pure as the driven snow.

Chris Rock was hired to do what Chris rock does. And what countless comics have done before him. Is it right or wrong? Dunno but I hardly think Chris Rock needs to be the one to right the wrings if history.


Also I might add that Chris could have escalated the situation. He took the slap, and moved on with the show.

I thought he showed pretty damn good restraint.

[Paladin]

65. And Will Smith added years to Chris Rock's career, with that slap and that language.

Will and Jada Smith could have ended Chris Rock's career, with a carefully planned and timed press conference. They get to live with the consequences.

[uponit7771]

66. +1, ... or just getting up and leave until break were Smith could talk to Rock about her condition

[pnwmom]

84. And how would that have helped all the TV viewers with Alopecia who understood

that Rock had singled her out for her baldness?

[Dorian Gray]

98. But how did slapping

Last edited Tue Mar 29, 2022, 02:30 PM - Edit history (2)

Help? Seriously?

Did Jada even want him to slap Rock?

We haven’t heard from her.

She’s a strong woman. I would love to hear from her how she’s feeling about this.

She can help lots of women who suffer from alopecia by advocating for them. Hopefully she will. I had no idea she had it until that night. I guess the slap made the world aware that she has it….

[Emile]

67. Bingo +1 Will made the whole joke about himself.

[PufPuf23]

97. Chris Rock showed us what type of comedian he is and that is his career.

And Chris Rock's comic career is a success, or he would not be on stage at the Oscars.

Rock is one of many comics with a similar edgy style, meant to offend some.

It doesn't matter why or anything about Jada Snith or Chris Rock, Will Smith literally in front of the World assaulted Chris Rock.

As far as an artistic celebrity, I favored Will Smith, having enjoyed more of his ubiquitous work.

But Will Smith is the person in the wrong. No excuse.

[unblock]

7. My heart goes out to those who suffer from alopecia and anyone bullied for any reason

But to take that lens to this particular situation and ignore everything else is just plain wrong.

The brief incident actually has quite a number of complicating factors. Alopecia, certainly. But also race, sex, wealth, celebrity, toxic masculinity, violence, academy award traditions, comedic roasting standards, and more.

Wealth and celebrity complicate the matter because ordinary people with alopecia can't hide it. But jada pinkett-smith could and did for some time. Thus when she showed up with a shaved head, that was not entirely the usual alopecia situation where that's the only hair style that works. Her wealth afforded her more options. In her case, a shaved head was a choice.

Still, that wouldn't justify bullying or insulting her.

But as others have noted, Chris rock didn't insult her. He likened her to demi moore's role as gi Jane, widely perceived as a strong woman who rocked that shaved head. That's a compliment, not an insult. Anyone who says otherwise is insulting Demi Moore.

Moreover, he suggested jada could star in a sequel. This can only be interpreted as a compliment to her acting ability.

All he did that was potentially problematic was to call out her shaved head. And yes, calling attention to an illness or disability is not cool (although it's standard fare for comedic roasting, which academy award attendees full well know to expect, especially if they're in the front row).

Except now we go back to that choice jada made to put her shaved head on display, in the front row at the academy awards, where it's known people there get roasted.

This is not a schoolyard bullying situation. This was a couple of career professionals who know damn well what to expect and what was expected of them.

If they weren't emotionally ready to handle being public with a shaved head, she should not have made that choice.

Again I recognize that most alopecia sufferers do not, in practice have any other choice so I would have far more sympathy for them if anyone even just pointed it out.

But this was not that. This was will, and probably jada as well, reaching to take offense and even then, wildly overreacting, to something obviously intended as a rather milquetoast roast.

[pnwmom]

11. The choice she made " to put her head on display"??? I can't believe I just read that on DU.

How about: she stopped hiding her painful secret.

The fact that Jada could afford to buy turbans and do other things to cover up her baldness doesn't make Rock's decision to make her baldness a subject of a joke any less mean. It doesn't matter that an attractive white actress CHOSE to shave her head. Jada has explained in multiple interviews how painful that decision was for her, but her daughter finally helped her do it.

And it wasn't only Jada who heard that "joke" -- and didn't find it funny at all.

Link to tweet

From the National Alopecia Areata Foundation:

https://www.naaf.org/news-room/alopecia-areata-is-no-joke

Alopecia Areata is No Joke
Mar 28, 2022

Simply put - Alopecia areata is no joke.

Alopecia areata is a common autoimmune skin disease that causes hair loss on the scalp, face and sometimes on other areas of the body. The disease affects nearly seven million people in the United States and 147 million people worldwide. It can be unpredictable and cause significant physical, emotional/mental health, psycho-social, and financial burdens – and there is no cure, effective treatment or standard of care. Alopecia areata does not discriminate and can affect anyone at any age and may be a temporary or life-long condition. Many people living with the condition are suffering, and we must do better to support this community and erase the stigma, discrimination, and societal barriers that persist.

The National Alopecia Areata Foundation, or NAAF, is the leading organization dedicated to supporting people and families affected by alopecia areata and educating the public at large about this autoimmune condition. We stand with the alopecia areata community and are here to support those in need, especially in the wake of emotional moments such as the one we all witnessed last night at the Academy Awards. We encourage both our community and the broader public to learn more about alopecia areata so we can end the stigma around this disease.

For more information and support, visit: NAAF.org.

[unblock]

14. Does alopecia get a special exemption from comedic roasting?

Comedic roasting casually insults people over race, sex, national origin, ethnicity, physical characteristics, religion, careers, relationships, political views, socioeconomic status, you name it. It's the one area where that stuff is tolerated. Repeat a joke you saw at a comedic roast the next day in the workplace and you get fired, and rightfully so.

Now, if you want to say all comedic roasting and insult comedy should go away, I would disagree and I wouldn't miss it. Never liked don rickles, and Joan rivers was only better because she laughed and smiled and made your feel like it was all in good fun even while she said horrible things.

So if we're saying that and calling attention to alopecia us off-limits, really that only makes sense if we say basically all comedic roasting is off-limits.

[pnwmom]

15. It's a medical disease, so yes. As the National Alopecia Areata Foundation

has pointed out, Alopecia isn't a joke.

Comics shouldn't be "roasting" people with Alopecia anymore than they should "roast" people with rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, or someone on steroids whose face has swollen up as a result of their treatment.

[unblock]

18. But roasting over height or weight or religion or national origin is fine?

All comedic roasting is offensive in any other context.

Last time I saw a comedy show live, they made a joke about kids with peanut allergies and people with cancer.

We did not enjoy those particular jokes as mini-unblock has a severe peanut allergy and Mrs unblock is a cancer survivor. But we recognize that that's part of what you get when you go see a comic, and the rest of the set was fine.

Comedians roast people over medical conditions all the time. Tremors, dementia, anxiety, adhd, allergies, you name it.

[pnwmom]

22. I don't care for Don Rickles style humor no matter who does it.

But this audience wasn't there for a roast, unlike people who go to a comedy show.

They were there to watch the Academy Awards. Maybe the planners for the show should be more careful about the comedians they choose. They don't all engage in mean or offensive humor.

[BlackSkimmer]

37. You must have missed Ricky Gervais' set.

He roasted the entire audience.

Don’t remember anyone losing their shit over it.

Being a celebrity means you’re going to have to face this kind of thing, rightly or wrongly. Thick skin is required.

I have alopecia, and I didn’t take Chris Rock’s comment to be about that. I took it to be about the shaved head. Pretty sure if I shaved my head, I’d get some ribbing from my friends and relatives, most of whom don’t know I have it.

[pnwmom]

39. But Chris Rock knows more than most of your relatives about Alopecia.

Do you know why I think that? Because he was the producer and Narrator of a documentary called Good Hair, and he interviewed a woman with a shaved head as part of it.

No one, including your relatives, should be ribbing anyone for having a shaved head. 15% of Black women have Alopecia, so if they see a Black woman with a shaved head, the chances are high that she's one off the 15%. Would you risk hurting anyone that way?

[whathehell]

19. First of all, it wasn't a "Roast, it was an award show with

Chris Rock making cruel jokes about a woman's painful disease, and no, there's no "exception" involved. Mocking the disabled is not the "norm" in anything but what used to be called "sick" humor.

[unblock]

20. The academy awards have long included some roasting of the audience members.

[robleb]

25. agreed

Every one I have ever watched - this is true.

[pnwmom]

26. Then they should stop. There's no reason to continue, if these comedians

can't think of better jokes than this.

[unblock]

56. That I can agree with. I'm not a fan of insult comedy.

And as the academy awards are really a work event even for the live audience (certainly at least for the nominees) perhaps they should operate at a workplace standard of decency and avoid jokes that mock people or that perpetuate stereotypes, etc.

I'm just baffled as to why this joke crossed the line when years of insults at the academy awards over looks weight and race and religion and accents and so on didn't get anything like this reaction.

But if the result is they put a stop to all roasting at the awards ceremonies, that makes sense to me and would be a positive outcome from this absurd mess.

[whathehell]

27. Some, maybe, but those do not, and shouldn't, include disability

mocking..That's for sadists and bullies.

[unblock]

57. Just about all roasting is for sadists and bullies

Roasting over physical characteristics, religion, national origin, disabilities, diseases, etc., are all in poor taste imho.

Perhaps the only roasting that's fair game is taking a little air out of someone's great accomplishments or teasing about some specific actions or quotes, like teasing Tom cruise about jumping on furniture.

[Dorian Gray]

99. WHAT WAS THE CRUEL JOKE?

That she could star in GI Jane 2?

Why was that cruel?

GI Jane was a very attractive badass female soldier who shaved her head and was still a sex symbol.

[whathehell]

108. The " joke" is she has hardly any hair left

and its cruel because unlike " badass" GI Jane. It's not of her choosing, but because she has a disorder called " alopecia".

[Dorian Gray]

135. I get that we don't control what we are sensitive about

and I understand why the joke may make her uncomfortable or unhappy.

I also want to say that Jada isn't at fault here, no matter what people say.

This is between Rock and Smith.

Someone wrote that joke. (Unclear whether it was Rock or not.) Rock said the joke. Smith slapped the face.

Was the slap warranted?

Hell no.

[whathehell]

139. Both Smith and Rock have apologized for their behaviors

so maybe it"s time to move on?... I definitely have.

[elias7]

35. I would think medical conditions qualify as hands off material

I don’t care for comedic roasting in general, but making fun of a physical condition is just wrong. You can’t equate calling attention to people with disabilities, those with cancer getting chemotherapy, those having had a stroke, etc. with making fun of Leonardo DiCaprio for dating young women or Johnny Depp doing something foolish in public and getting called out for it.

[pnwmom]

40. +1000

[unblock]

58. I agree

It would be nice indeed if roasting were limited to teasing about quotes, actions, and decisions; and all disabilities, diseases, race, sex, gender, religion, ethnicity, national origin, physical characteristics, etc. were all off-limits.

[roamer65]

12. Last night we saw that two wrongs definitely don't make a right.

Enuff said.

Sad, sad event.

[Kablooie]

13. The joke was insensitive and deserved push back.

But Smith should have had words with him privately during the break, not in the middle of the show.

[pnwmom]

16. He shouldn't have hit him. But how would private words helped all the TV viewers

with Alopecia when they cringed at hearing the joke?

And why is Rock allowed to publicly hurt someone with a joke, but Smith is supposed to criticize him privately?

[Kablooie]

21. During the middle of a show you can't really fix it.

Smith could have also used news or social media to express his anger but it would have to be outside of the show itself.

[pnwmom]

24. So the comedian can engage in hurtful "jokes" in public, and no one else can respond

till the show is over.

Maybe the best solution is to stop bringing comedians to the Awards, if all of them these days only engage in personal, hurtful, humor. I remember when Don Rickles-style jokes were the exception, not the rule. I'd like to go back to those days.

[GumboYaYa]

102. No, it is just not okay to go on stage and physically assault

the comedian. No matter how offensive a joke may be, it does not justify an assault.

[pnwmom]

103. I've repeatedly said what Smith did was wrong. But so was what Rock did.

Rock was the producer of Good Hair. He had to have known that 15% of Black women suffer from a certain type of immune-related alopecia, in addition to those with alopecia of other types. He even interviewed one for his documentary.

So let's pretend he didn't know for a fact that Jada had alopecia. He knew she'd suddenly started shaving her head, and that there was a good chance she had alopecia. So what did he do? He called attention to her shaved head, on a night when she and her husband were hoping to celebrate an Oscar win.

He used Jada to take a slap at her husband. Not nice.

[fishwax]

91. how did the slap help TV viewers with Alopecia?

This conversation could have happened after the awards ceremony without the specter of a violent assault.

[cstanleytech]

28. Not in any way condoning Rock however I recall when Stephen Colbert roasted Bush and no one

hit him for it nor can I recall anyone else that has done other roastings been assaulted at such an event.

[pnwmom]

30. What disease did Colbert roast Bush for? None that I can recall.

But I'm not justifying Smith's response. This is about Chris Rock and his choice to make a woman with alopecia the butt of his public joke.

[cstanleytech]

31. The point is not what he said but rather what Smith decided to do about it as he had other options

such as complaining to the Awards committee afterwards and requesting Rock be banned in the future.

[pnwmom]

33. Again, I'm not justifying what Smith did. I'm saying that too many people

are minimizing what Chris Rock did, which hurt untold numbers of viewers with Alopecia, including some young people.

[chwaliszewski]

29. Both men were wrong.

Chris was wrong to use Jada's disease as the butt of a joke and Will was wrong to assault him.

[cstanleytech]

32. Agreed. nt

[Sympthsical]

43. I'm just seeing Cersei Lannister in all this

“I choose parody.”

Mix in “Justifying Violence While Denying It: An Ongoing Series” and “Jada Pinkett Smith: Damsel in Distress With No Power: Modern Perspectives in Feminism” and this has all devolved splendidly into internet silliness.

Entertaining though.

[fightforfreedom]

44. No more fat jokes, the person might have a disease.

No more bald jokes, the person might have a disease, no more short jokes, the person may have a disease. No more making jokes about anybody, they may have a disease.

This is complete bullshit. Chris Rock did nothing that warranted what Will Smith did.

[luv2fly]

45. Yes, no more making fun of people

If you don't make fun of how people look, you lessen your risk of getting smacked.

No one should ever make fun of how people look. Not ever.

Of course that will fall on some deaf ears here, where people just love to make fun about how Sinema dresses or Ted Cruz's beard. Apparently there's nothing about their policies to ridicule, and people go right for the low hanging fruit.

[pnwmom]

46. How about no more making fun of other people's medical condition or disability for laughs?

GI Jane was a fictional character. The chance that a straight woman is shaving her head for kicks is tiny.

And if you're not weight challenged yourself, don't make fun of fat people. If you're comfortably tall, don't make fun of short people.

In other words, if you're among the physically blessed, don't punch down. It's an ugly practice.

[ChazII]

55. +1

My son looked like Disney's version of the Hunchback of Notre Dame. Called freak or monster on a daily basis or being told that Halloween is over and take off the mask was not a once in a year comment.

As many here at DU know Jay passed in 2020 from the same brain tumor that took President Biden's son as well as Sen McCain.

I taught him to use humor. When called 'Fat Cheek' by his peers he would say, "My what good eyes you have. You are doing to be a great detective some day." Yes, Jay hurt and in his grade schools years he would cry and beg me not to send him to school.

Perhaps Will Smith with his quick wit and talent with words could have slapped Chris down verbally. I have been as a mom in those shoes where you want to protect your loved one.

Thank you for your last two sentences. They are something that needs to be sees as often as Live, Love, Laugh.

[pnwmom]

77. I'm so sorry for your unspeakable loss, and that other human beings made it even more painful.

There can't be a greater loss than losing a child, especially a child old enough to realize what's happening -- and then to be treated like that by others -- ugh.

I am so very sorry.

[MustLoveBeagles]

79. I'm so sorry for what your son went through

People can be so cruel.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

48. What do you lose by deciding not to make fun of someone's appearance?

[RobinA]

85. A Whole Lot

of bullies lose their claim to fame.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

86. .

[USALiberal]

62. It sounds like you're fine with bullies! Nt

[AngryOldDem]

71. How about just not making fun of people's appearances, period?

Especially if you aren’t aware of their situation, or know them all that well? What’s complete bullshit is people finding humor in someone else’s physical situation. So sure, laugh at the bald person who might have alopecia like Jada or may be going through chemo. Laugh at short person, who might have a growth disorder. Laugh at the obese person, who might have a glandular condition.

It’s all in good fun, right? I’ve had jokes flung my way from people who don’t know me from fuck-all. It’s not medically related but it hurts just the same, so I can imagine what it’s like for those who do have an issue beyond their control.

Jesus — it’s called empathy. (I didn’t find Rock’s crack funny in the slightest, but I don’t approve of how Smith handled himself either. Just for the record.)

[treestar]

89. Taking Smith's action out of it completely

Do you really think those types of jokes should be OK? Can't comedians come up with something better than fat, blad, short jokes?

[pnwmom]

113. I miss intelligent comics who didn't depend on Don Rickles insults to make jokes. n/t

[treestar]

140. Agreed. And the ones who could be funny without expletives.

[Johnny2X2X]

47. "Jada, I love you. GI Jane 2, can't wait to see you."

That's honestly not even cruel in the least. Honestly, it could have been interpreted as a show of support for her. Like, "don't worry girl, you've still got amazing roles out there for yourself, can't wait to see you in one."

I think it's important to know exactly what he said. And it wasn't really something cruel or mean spirited.

I'd bet alcohol was a factor. And I think Will Smith was sore from being the butt of earlier jokes in the show. Specifically the one making light of his open relationship.

"Jada, I love you. GI Jane 2, can't wait to see you." I'd bet you at clinics that treat alopecia in women, references to GI Jane are normal as she's a beautiful and strong bald female character that everyone knows. I'd bet guys who have it hear about Bruce Willis all the time, just like guys who go bald normally joke abut looking like Bruce Willis too (Telly Savalas for older generations).

This joke wasn't over the line. Will Smith was. Doesn't mean making fun of Alopecia is OK, jus that I don't think this was making fun of it so much as bringing it up for no great reason.

[pnwmom]

51. The National Alopecia Areata Foundation disagrees with you.

They put out statement the next day addressing the Oscars and saying Alopecia isn't a joking matter.

And no, it wasn't supportive to suggest that there are still "amazing roles" out there, that she can play shaved headed women now.

Link to tweet

[Emile]

49. Will Smith might have believed he was protecting his wife.

But violence performed in the name of protecting wronged women only steals away the attention from where it belongs: on the wronged woman.

The misguided chivalry of Will Smith. Will Smith made it about himself!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/03/28/will-smith-jada-pinkett-slap-fallout/

[treestar]

92. That is indeed very old fashioned and anti-feminist

Do women go up and slap someone who makes fun of their husband? Men protecting their family is usually coming from a sexist place, at any rate, Rock's action was not physical and men protecting their family usually means physical attacks.

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

52. If you bully someone with a disability, or medical condition, etc,

don't be surprised if you get smacked, or worse.

Words spoken with intent to humiliate someone because of their disability, medical condition, or other natural condition, may cause you to get your clock cleaned by the victim's loved ones coming to their defense.

Far too many defenseless children have been driven to take their own lives by relentless, merciless, remorseless bullies.

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/facts-about-lgbtq-youth-suicide/

Warning: Bullying May Be Hazardous To Your Health.

[pinkstarburst]

54. Excellent post

[LexVegas]

59. I think Will Smith deserves credit for standing up for someone else's woman like that. nt

[Emile]

60. LOL I see what you did there!

[uponit7771]

69. lofl ... and these jokes will keep comin !!! Smith made it worse ... lol

[Native]

61. Thank you for a much needed post, and for the grace you've shown

in response to some very obtuse and insensitive comments.

[LizBeth]

70. The slap was a 2 second pain for Rock. The "joke" will be a lifetime shame for Jada.

[lindysalsagal]

73. If it were off camera, different story. But the Oscars makes it her lifetime moniker

and that's why Will refused to let it go unanswered. He decided if she had to live with it, he'd also add his defense to it. And bear it with her.

Besides, Rock was clearly not hurt. If he wanted, Will could have put him on the ground.

[fishwax]

100. Will's actions gave the "joke" eternal life

[lindysalsagal]

109. Of course you could say that, but his inaction would have been judged, as well.

It's hard to say, but that might be the only time she was named by an oscar host/announcer, and it's not ok that it was her weak spot, and Rock knew it. He was being a jerk, to get attention at her expense.

[fishwax]

110. nobody worth worrying about would have judged him if he'd simply supported his wife instead of

assaulting an unsuspecting victim.

[ripcord]

72. It is strange to me that most people agree that insulting people is wrong

But if you call yourself a comedian it suddenly becomes acceptable to insult whoever you want.

[LizBeth]

81. This is what I have never accepted and am hearing so clearly today.

No boundaries for comedians in nastiness and we are all to just sit back and politely laugh, regardless. Not gonna happen.

[pnwmom]

83. That used to be the exception, but some here are claiming it's the rule.

I don't think so though. I listened to Stephen Colbert last night about the Oscars, and I didn't hear him mocking the way anyone looked.

[RobinA]

87. It's Reminding Me

of the whole "boys will be boys" excuse. Comics will be comics. We expect them to mindlessly insult people on things said person can't do anything about.

[ibegurpard]

120. They don't

They just don't think you should rush the stage and hit people over it.

[SYFROYH]

74. Yes and no.

I agree that in general we should not make people's health conditions (or physical appearance) part of jokes. What happened to Rio Allred is horrible.

On the other hand, Jada Pinkett Smith is a grown woman (with considerable clout in Hollywood) with alopecia who appeared to have a full head of hair in a burr cut similar to the GI Jane look. The Oscars often have comedians who roast members of the academy where sometimes the brunt of the joke laughs and sometimes grimaces. It is a normal part of the Oscars.

Chris Rock was doing his job and didn't do it well at that moment (whether he knew about Jada's medical condition or not), but that's all it was.

[pnwmom]

115. If that's now a normal part of the Oscars, they should end it and go back

to the times when it wasn't a normal part of the Oscars.

We don't need the Oscars to be promoting insult humor. If people like that they can go to a comedy club.

[Emile]

75. and that's why the academy is investigating, oh wait, Will Smith!

[Goodheart]

76. I don't think you get it.

Making fun of an innocent person's disease is despicable, and I haven't seen a single person here who excused Chris Rock for making fun of Jada.

BUT... there was no excuse for violence.

[pnwmom]

80. I have seen quite a number of people on DU say some version of "it was just a joke."

Or some version of "it was a compliment -- Demi Moore is beautiful."

For example, not far above here:

That's honestly not even cruel in the least. Honestly, it could have been interpreted as a show of support for her. Like, "don't worry girl, you've still got amazing roles out there for yourself, can't wait to see you in one."

[Demsrule86]

78. Thank you for that...a girl at my daughter's high school attempted suicide over the same thing...

Chris Rock is a bully.

[treestar]

88. If only Smith had not hit him, but made a statement to the press

this debate could be all about this.

The only thing tough to understand is why Rock would deliberately he hurtful. As a comedian, it could be hard for him to draw the line.

[Evergreen Emerald]

90. Oh Please. Stop attempting to justify the violence.

There is NO EXCUSE for his actions. None.

[pnwmom]

114. I haven't said a word to justify the violence. I just want people to stop minimizing

the harm jokes like this do to people with Alopecia, in their rush to condemn Smith.

Say what you want about Smith. Just don't minimize what Rock did because he was wrong in his own way.

[gulliver]

95. If Rock didn't know she had alopecia, the wrong belongs entirely to the Smiths

Let's wait and see on this one.

[pnwmom]

112. Rock DOES know that many Black women do have an autoimmune Alopecia -- 15% --

many more than have the kind of auto-immune Alopecia Areata that white women have. Altogether, almost half of Black women have some form of Alopecia, including the kind caused by stress on the hair, due to hair products and styles.

He was the producer of GOOD HAIR, and interviewed at least one Black women with total Alopecia about what she's suffered.

So when he sees a bald Black woman, he should ASSUME she's not shaving her head for fun, till proven otherwise.

And why the heck are you blaming ANYTHING on "the Smiths"? Jada didn't do anything except get publicly laughed at.

[GoodRaisin]

96. K&R

[RANDYWILDMAN]

107. My daughter had it, no joke kids called her baldy, but Smith should not hit anybody

Violence shifts the conversation, I wish Will Smith could have seen that.



Second I wanna know why the Oscars should honor a man playing a man (Richard Williams) who ditched his first family to raise a great second family? That part of the movie was glossed over big time. (Smith did a great job, but Williams was shadow of who he really is )

[pnwmom]

111. I didn't say he should have hit anybody. But there are people her claiming Rock's joke was harmless

and that's wrong.

And I'm with you on the Williams's narcissistic father. He's no paragon of virtue, except in his own mind. His daughters should have been able to find their own way, not forced to follow his path through tennis on an 82 page program he'd written before they were even conceived!

[andym]

117. Perhaps someday our culture will advance to the point where bald really is beautiful

and stereotypical idealized body types are not so preferred because of cultural beauty bias as to make baldness a potential insult.

In memory of the beautiful Lt Ilia played by Persis Khambatta from the original Star Trek movie:

[betsuni]

137. I loved that movie and she was incredibly beautiful!

[ibegurpard]

119. Not necessary to minimize what an inappropriate joke it was

In order to condemn Will Smith's completely disproportionate and inappropriate reaction.

[pnwmom]

126. It isn't necessary to minimize it but plenty of people are doing it anyway. n/t

[JI7]

121. Bullying of Kids is a horrible thing and serious issue that we haven't done enough

to address and stop .

But the Will Smith thing is a totally different thing . JPS is an adult and they are a powerful and influential couple . They could easily have dealt with this by bringing it up afterwards and then discussing the seriousness of the issue.

[pnwmom]

127. My OP isn't about Will Smith. It's about Jada and Rock and his joke about her bald head. n/t

[JI7]

136. And it's still not the same as the bullying of kids in school

[pnwmom]

138. The National Alopecia Areata Foundation disagrees with you.

They posted a response to the Oscars controversy on the same day that they posted about a 12 year old with alopecia who killed herself last week after being bullied about her alopecia.

[canetoad]

122. Time this thread was retired

Nature will take its course.

Those of us with (fill in the gap)_________________ psoriasis, anxiety, epilepsy, diabetes, arthritis.....

We know. We know these conditions are bad, embarrassing, painful and incurable. Please stop making it one of your talking points.

[pnwmom]

128. Whoa. I think it's time for you to leave. n/t

[canetoad]

133. Do you now?

Leave where? Be specific. That's an inane bullying response.

[pnwmom]

134. You told me to retire my OP. If anything was inane and bullying,

it was your post.

[krawhitham]

124. Chris Rock did not know she has alopecia

Why should or would he?

https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/29/oscars-2022-chris-rock-didnt-know-jada-pinkett-smith-had-alopecia-16362361/

[pnwmom]

125. Chris Rock was the producer of GOOD HAIR, a documentary about Black women's

struggles with their hair. He knows that alopecia is a common problem among Black women, and he'd personally interviewed a woman with a shaved head for his documentary.

So, knowing what he knew about Black women in general, he should not have taken a chance that Jada wasn't shaving her head because she had alopecia.

[Meowmee]

129. Agree

We have seen bullying of children and others for all sort of reasons tragically end in suicides. Hair loss is devastating whatever the cause. I am going through it due to various health issues and it has worsened with covid.

I am not sure at what point the academy awards became about having hosts / comedians or whomever mocking the audience members. I think they have created a terrible environment to start with which they are aware of. Why not just discuss the films and art created and hand out the awards. I have not watched it in recent times, it’s too long and I don’t see most of the films anyway.

[pnwmom]

130. Right, it's too long. Why fill it up with stupid comedy acts? n/t

[Meowmee]

131. Exactly 😀

[Emile]

143. Moderators are starting to trash these threads..

[Sugarcoated]

145. I'm gonna start trashing them

starting with this one

[Emile]

146. Me too! It's time to move on.