I was so wrong in assuming that Russian soldiers hold the same values as we soldiers have in west

[Duncanpup]

Sitting here reading of gang rapes and executions . When this started and I would see video of young men in the Russian army the same age as our two oldest sons seventeen and eighteen crying talking to their mothers as prisoners of war I felt compassion for those boys as a father. As a former soldier I know I could never commit rape or executions.

I thought that our peers in the east had evolved since WW2 I was wrong still savages. In Mariupol preteen girls being treated for rape.

[Sherman A1]

1. I am saddened as well, but not at all surprised

The mindset is different from our Western World and the brutality of war often brings out the worst in the human animal.

[2naSalit]

3. +1

[Walleye]

2. War is Rape, looting, and destruction. Always was, always will be

[smirkymonkey]

68. Human beings do those things.

Human beings who have choices. Nobody forces them into such savagery against innocent civilians. It's like so many people think that war is just a free-for-all so that evil people can act on their bases, most evil impulses.

[BSdetect]

4. Like those at My Lai?

[Duncanpup]

5. True

[Solomon]

11. Like Abu Ghraib? Somebody being awfully naive.

[Ferrets are Cool]

23. Thank you. ANYONE thinking that American soldiers didn't do this while in Iraq are

either willfully ignorant or extremely naive. We slaughtered almost ONE MILLION Iraqi children, women and men while there on a false pretense.

[Mosby]

32. Death toll in Iraq was like 30-40k.

The Iraq Body Count project came up with 200k or so, vut that includes deaths from the religious civil war and insurgency.

[Ferrets are Cool]

33. ...

[Igel]

61. The Lancet said 1 million.

But they used a strange sampling methodology and included a drop in the birth rate as equivalent to killing babies. Their samping methodology works in a highly mobile, fragmented society--but where there are large, cohesive clans where the members live close to each other, it as a built in bias that you can't get rid of. In other words, the base assumption "random sample" was false and the conclusions fake.

Then there was that whole matter of the non-conceived being considered to be people with rights. It made for a better claim when talking.

Consider that in the US with all the lockdowns the birth rate dropped. Do we count the difference between expected births without COVID and those born to have been killed by the virus?

[JI7]

6. Our soldiers have done horrible things also

[Duncanpup]

7. Agreed

[oldsoftie]

27. Not as SOP though. This is a planned systematic attack on civilians.

yes, we've had our bad cases too. And some troops get prosecuted. But we don't commit to battle plans that have mass rape & murder as a main piece of the plan

[anarch]

49. it would be if the previous administration had its way

It's a shared set of values based on conquest and cruelty; part of the reason so many of the MAGA types agree with their figurehead in his approval and admiration of Putin's regime--you may remember he pardoned several war criminals.

[oldsoftie]

55. military ops were underway while trump was in office. And we didn't do this.

This is a planned, systematic attempt to break the civilian will of Ukraine. Not some random sychphant doing it on their own.
The MAGA sheep simply follow whatever is "not Biden". Their minds are full of QAnon & foreign mush. And I wouldn't be surprised if QAnon actually WAS a foreign operation designed to divide us. I can't believe our current intel system hasn't been able to find out definitively WHO "Q" really is & where it comes from. Wouldn't shock me at all if it was mostly from Russia. or china.

[kiri]

41. bothsideism

Bothsideism does not seem to be an adequate response. Also, the teachings of the Russian Orthodox Church and their being in bed with Putin has undermined civilized morality.

[Igel]

62. It's a question of extent and frequency.

If reporters went into an area that the US pulled out of and saw a Bucha scene, we'd have heard it for a long time.

We have truly bad actors. But far fewer such incidents, and even fewer that are intentional in their results.

Take the killing of the aid worker in late August in Kabul. That may arguably have been a sloppy killing of civilians, but I haven't heard a serious claim that the US wanted to kill civilians.

I'd say that we do fewer such things now than in the '60s. Better guidance systems, better satellites, better control processes. Russia lacks a lot of those, but Bucha wasn't from 10k feet, it was from 3 feet.

I'd also say that we much less likely to go to the extremes that we see claimed in Bucha and such places. And when there are extremes and intentional cruelty, they're usually investigated and punished. Take a report I heard that looked at the worst of the worst done in Iraq--a small, small percent of the overall number of incidents, and even then the investigative reporter, spending a year on it, found sloppiness and bad assumptions but no case where somebody intended to kill civilians, much less kill them in a truly horrible manner. Except for reports of incidents that were few and punished.

Seriously, pulling teeth out of teen boys' mouths for sport and torture?

[JI7]

72. The OP is about comparing us with them.

[kiri]

73. OK Whataboutism?

What-aboutism is standard fare at FreeRepublic.

It always deflects from the original--and is intended to do so and well-wielded by the TFG cultists.

[JI7]

74. It doesn't help to claim something which is obviously not true

which is what the OP did.

Im doing the opposite of whataboutism. Which is the fact we did something doesn't make it ok for others.

[Spider Jerusalem]

63. I don't seem to remember reading about mass rape of German women by western Allies in 1945

In the Soviet zone of occupation, though? Well, here's what Alexander Solzhenitsyn has to say about that:

“All of us knew very well that if girls were German, they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction.”

— Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Russian novelist

Also:

Red Army soldiers don't believe in 'individual liaisons' with German women," wrote the playwright Zakhar Agranenko in his diary when serving as an officer of marine infantry in East Prussia. "Nine, ten, twelve men at a time - they rape them on a collective basis."

The Soviet armies advancing into East Prussia in January 1945, in huge, long columns, were an extraordinary mixture of modern and medieval: tank troops in padded black helmets, Cossack cavalrymen on shaggy mounts with loot strapped to the saddle, lend-lease Studebakers and Dodges towing light field guns, and then a second echelon in horse-drawn carts. The variety of character among the soldiers was almost as great as that of their military equipment. There were freebooters who drank and raped quite shamelessly, and there were idealistic, austere communists and members of the intelligentsia appalled by such behaviour.

Beria and Stalin, back in Moscow, knew perfectly well what was going on from a number of detailed reports. One stated that "many Germans declare that all German women in East Prussia who stayed behind were raped by Red Army soldiers". Numerous examples of gang rape were given - "girls under 18 and old women included".

Marshal Rokossovsky issued order No 006 in an attempt to direct "the feelings of hatred at fighting the enemy on the battlefield." It appears to have had little effect. There were also a few arbitrary attempts to exert authority. The commander of one rifle division is said to have "personally shot a lieutenant who was lining up a group of his men before a German woman spreadeagled on the ground". But either officers were involved themselves, or the lack of discipline made it too dangerous to restore order over drunken soldiers armed with submachine guns.

Calls to avenge the Motherland, violated by the Wehrmacht's invasion, had given the idea that almost any cruelty would be allowed. Even many young women soldiers and medical staff in the Red Army did not appear to disapprove. "Our soldiers' behaviour towards Germans, particularly German women, is absolutely correct!" said a 21-year-old from Agranenko's reconnaissance detachment. A number seemed to find it amusing. Several German women recorded how Soviet servicewomen watched and laughed when they were raped. But some women were deeply shaken by what they witnessed in Germany. Natalya Gesse, a close friend of the scientist Andrei Sakharov, had observed the Red Army in action in 1945 as a Soviet war correspondent. "The Russian soldiers were raping every German female from eight to eighty," she recounted later. "It was an army of rapists."

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11

Spare us the false equivalence and bothsideserism, pls.

[pwb]

8. It may be the mercenaries Comrade Putin hired.

Blackwater, our private mercenary force may even be over there starting shit everywhere. They get paid big bucks to do the deeds that enrage and prolong the wars. Staged outrage. Good Soldiers getting blamed is the goal. IMO.

[Pachamama]

9. They never learned - it's been practice for centuries by their soldiers

My Oma told me about the rapes suffered by German and Eastern European women during the war and at the end of WW2. Over 2 million german women are estimated to have been raped by the Red Army of the Soviet Union.

Nope….they haven’t changed and it’s one of the reason so many women and children fled Ukraine and why in Poland, Germany and other European countries they are taking them in protectively.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11

[suncat]

18. Rapes in Yugoslavia too...

My father (career Army) told me many of my great aunts, and cousins were raped in the early 1900's to WWII by Russians and others. They were large farming families without help from anyone. It was the way of war... Then years later came the Yugoslav wars with more of the same.

[Pachamama]

26. Rape as a weapon in war

It is of course a war crime and to terrorize….

[WhiskeyGrinder]

10. Values have little to do with it; all militaries are brutal things.

[BSdetect]

12. You may want to read The Pentagon Papers and The New Legions

The latter written by Donald Duncan

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5042866-the-new-legions

[alphafemale]

13. Doesn't even the Buy Bull say the virgins should be raped? When you conquer the enemy?

This is a tale as old as time.

Why I became an Atheist young.

[oldsoftie]

29. Old Testament.

[alphafemale]

34. And....?

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to bring peace, but a sword."

Who dat?

[3auld6phart]

42. Hmnn

Sounds like swill written by males. Bothe old T. and
new T. written by sick depressed males.

[Mariana]

54. And...

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

[Danascot]

47. Deuteronomy 20:10-14

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Virgins as spoils of war:

Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves

Numbers 31:17-18

[Mosby]

50. Do Jews and Chriatians follow that do you think?

[alphafemale]

56. It is instructions.

Is it not?

[Mosby]

64. 2500 year old instructions.

Jews consider the torah a living document, open to changing interpretations. The central text of Jewish law is the Talmud and lesser extent the Shuchan Aruch.

[Farmer-Rick]

14. Rape has always been used as a weapon in war

It's an awful thing. But war is an awful racket. Look at who is suffering and who is making money off this.

From a distance it seems so straight forward but war is a deadly horrible act done to innocent people when the oligarchs and bankers want more power and money. War itself never really helps the poor and oppressed until it is over.

[ashredux]

15. Once the killing starts, especially up close, the thin veneer of civilization is ripped away...

[Ilsa]

16. It was what the women of 1945 Germany feared, and rightfully so.

They would rather take their chances with Allied Forces, or so I've read.

[DFW]

25. The mother of one of my wife's friends was one of them

She was never completely normal since, and her elder daughters had to witness it. My wife's friend was born later. None of the daughters were ever in stable relationships, either. It leaves deep emotional scars, no matter who the perpetrator is.

Of course, after what the German military did in the Soviet Union in World War II, it was no surprise that no barriers were erected with respect to how the Soviet soldiers behaved once they got a chance for some payback.

[Ilsa]

46. Oh yes, plus the starvation of millions of Russians. nt

[DFW]

48. Stalin was more expert at that than Hitler ever was

After all, he did have a 15 year head start.............

[Crunchy Frog]

60. But how can that be? All militaries are exactly the same

according to the posters in this thread. Did they just prefer getting raped by an American?

[COL Mustard]

17. I'm afraid it happens in every army

We had troops who raped their way through France in 1944-45, and a lot of them were court martialed for it. Some of our troops also committed sexual assault on German women during the occupation. Unfortunately it’s human nature for some people to take such advantage of vulnerable people.

[SmallFry]

19. The power of the MSM.

They hold so much power over what common knowledge is.

Look at what Russia has been doing in Syria. Not a moly is this not shocking when it comes to what their rank and file are willing to do, I’d say they are showing restraint when compared to historical activity.

Putin has had to put people in the field in Ukraine that were not in Syria, out of necessity. Those who sharpened their blades in Syria are still well mixed in.

The shocking part is that it’s less memorable or newsworthy when Putin brings his brutality to Syria.

[The Jungle 1]

20. The russian military is a corrupt gang of thugs.

The leadership is trash and it appears that there is little or no training.
russia is a paper dragon.
One thing that shines through is how well trained and equipped our military is. I guess we all complain about the cost of our military but is sure is money well spent. Just an opinion but I believe there is a small amount of corruption in the US military. We sure do not hear much about it.

[sky_masterson]

21. My opinion of how evil the Russians are

was solidified many years ago when I visited the Museum of Communism in Prague.
The Russians were dirty as hell when it came to war and control. My avatar is of a T-shirt I got from there. It's a parody of a Cute teddy bear carrying a Russian Rifle.

[hlthe2b]

22. Not suprisingly, I think some (probably mostly the young conscripts) do; the mercenaries certainly

do not. We can only hope some of the horrified talk with family and friends back home and more gets out. As to the mercenaries, only defeat or death will stop this.

[70sEraVet]

24. Mostly, people are people, here or over there.

Its the leadership that will determine whether the soldiers act decently or barbarically.

[JI7]

75. Yes, like Trump pardoning war criminals.

[tikka]

28. Look at the sexual assaults within our own military

[Chainfire]

35. Then, add to that

You are in another country that you are at war with, you are armed to the teeth, and you are immune from the police and protected by your (gang) fellow soldiers.

It is war; people need to understand that. When you suggest a war is the answer to a disagreement, then you are advocating for murder, rape, torture, willful destruction of property and organized theft. It is all a part of the package; it always has been and always will be.

[Rabrrrrrr]

37. And add in that in order to get people to kill each other, it helps to dehumanize the other,

and then rape isn't even seen as rape - rape is something one does to human beings.

[Chainfire]

40. You are exactly right.

The victims are not women, not someone's wife or sister, but enemies. Rape is a crime of aggression and aggression is a trait that is intentionally trained into a soldier.

[Evolve Dammit]

30. It is truly disgusting and horrific. Thank you for your service and thoughts on this.

[roamer65]

31. Not all, but part of it is a conscript versus volunteer army.

Also, it’s just part of their culture…sadly.

[Rabrrrrrr]

36. Evolved since WWII? Our troops were raping in Iraq, Afghanistan, and even around bases in Okinawa

and elsewhere.

What the Russian troops are doing is absolutely evil, yes; but let's be honest, it's not any different than what troops* have always done (whether in war or in the boredom of downtime on a base) and, sadly, will always do so until we end the addiction to war or start teaching soldiers different behavior.


* obviously not ALL troops. Some maintain their moral center while serving - and I'd like to think that a majority maintain their moral center; but there's enough of this that it's an issue and a problem.

[BlackSkimmer]

70. This.

Sad, but true.

[multigraincracker]

38. 'A fish rots from the head down'?

'A fish rots from the head down'?
When an organization or state fails, it is the leadership that is the root cause.

PUTIN is the explanation.

[HUAJIAO]

39. Of course, then there were the wars against indigenous "North Americans."

[Wounded Bear]

43. War is brutal and it brutalizes those who participate...nt

[MineralMan]

44. Soldiers are individual people. You can't lump them all together.

US Soldiers have also committed atrocities in wartime. My Lai, for example.

[TeamProg]

53. Agreed, but the de-humanization of the enemy or any group of people often leads to widespread

abuse and/or exploitation.

And the saying 'the masses are asses', does hold some truth.

[Oneironaut]

45. This is a universal human thing. This is what happens when order breaks down.

War turns people into monsters. Giving 18-year-old men (or boys) a rifle, and letting them run free with no command structure is a recipe for mass carnage.

The Russian army is garbage. They can’t even control their own generals. That’s why you see the looting, gang raping, summary executions of civilians, etc. - they’re a step away from just being lowly pirates and thugs running around with no formal training.

This sort of thing also happened in Iraq, though, nowhere near as much. The reason for this is that the US command structure is like night and day vs. the Russians, and, there are consequences for acting like an animal in the US Army. On the other hand, the people who are supposed to stop Russian foot soldiers from raping, looting, and murdering civilians are doing the same thing themselves.

All Russian soldiers are marked now. I hope they all die.

[Arazi]

51. I don't need graphic warnings anymore for Russian troop deaths

Grimly satisfied that they died and hope it was painful

[smirkymonkey]

69. +1000

[TeamProg]

52. Some of us homo sapiens sapiens have homo sapiens neanderthalensis DNA in our cells.

Scientists have written about "interbreeding" between the two but does interbreeding always mean consensual sex?

Unfortunately, forced sex and sexual violence has probably been around since the dawn of the animal kingdom. The does do not always seem so receptive to the bucks around my house. Of the most bizarre of mating rituals, porcupines have got to be near the top.

Education, civility, respect for each other's rights are probably our best weapon against rape in human society.

The abuses at Abu Ghraib and other prisons probably happen because captives' rights are taken away.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

[patphil]

57. Can't say for certain, but this sounds like the work of the Wagner Group.

This is a mercenary group created by Putin that specializes in murder and mayhem.
They're essentially terrorists.
I've read that there are a lot of them operating in Ukraine.

[demmiblue]

58. Umm, our troops sexually assault/rape their own. A lot.

The west isn't some paragon of virtue.

[BlackSkimmer]

59. Yup. And we have numerous examples of crimes committed against civilians by our own troops.

Then there’s Abu Ghraib. And those atrocities that Navy Seal (forgot his name) perpetrated against Iraqis. Tfg pardoned him, I think, but it was so grim stuff.

[alphafemale]

65. I remember a text from "Bury by Heart at Wounded Knee"

Where some high ranking officer had a vest made out of labia lips of the native women and girls he had raped and killed.

[BlackSkimmer]

71. There's a lot of horror in that book.

And yes, perpetrated by American soldiers.

[bullwinkle428]

66. Former US Marine accused of rape in Ukraine

KYIV, Ukraine — A former U.S. Marine has been accused of raping and beating an American woman in Western Ukraine.

Ryan Michael Burke, 38, is being sought by Ukrainian and Polish police after the woman reported the alleged assault to authorities. The woman, whose name is being withheld to protect her privacy, had traveled from the United States to Lviv, Ukraine, to volunteer as a medical worker.

The woman reported to authorities that Burke, whom she recently met for the first time in Lviv, told her that he was working for Samaritan’s Purse, a relief organization with an emergency field hospital in the city, and that he had close links with local police — claims which have subsequently been disproven. He was staying in a hotel in Lviv with a number of unidentified companions, though it remains unclear exactly what he was doing in Ukraine. He fled after the alleged assault and his whereabouts remain unknown.

Because she was convinced that Burke had influence with the local police, the victim crossed the border to Poland to file charges, escorted by an American journalist to whom she had turned for help. Polish and Ukrainian police have issued a warrant for Burke’s arrest, and border security is on the lookout for him should he attempt to cross from Ukraine into Poland.

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/marine-accused-rape-ukraine/

[Samrob]

67. Blackwater, is that you??

Just wondering if most of those reported atrocities are regular Russian military or hired mercenaries.