So, Odessa was shelled.

[EndlessWire]

Odessa was reported to be a key objective in Russia's war efforts. So, it looks like they may have started on Odessa, by shelling from warships in the Azov. Those weren't errant shells.

The style of fighting that Russia has shown is a giant war crime. Apparently, they think that bombing the cities to rubble, and terrorizing the civilian populations, is the thing to do. The peace talks seem pointless to me, as Putin is a liar and seems to have no intent whatsoever to hold legitimate talks. Saying, Surrender everything, is not a negotiation. I don't want Zelensky to meet with Putin at all. It is too dangerous, and pointless. Ukraine is not going to surrender.

I am not allowed to say what I really think here at DU. I was censored for that, and cannot argue. But, let me just say, in my wildest fantasy, I picture a "30-seconds over Tokyo" type of raid. Can I say that? They will let me know. I have a longing for retribution against Moscow and Putin.

The war is not over. I think that someone should send the Hague a complaint delineating all the war crimes that Russia is committing against civilian populations in these cities. NATO and the UN do not want to expand to WW3, which is well and good. And, I know that we are squeezing the life out of Russia and its buddies. Well, maybe not China, yet. But, it isn't stopping Russia from shelling cities that it has heretofore left alone. Russia is seeking control of that corridor come hell or high water.

Since this is turning into all cosplay, with pretend hands off to avoid WW3, why can't someone give Ukraine a couple of warships of their own, or a sub, or something, to distract the Russians from destroying Odessa?

I dunno, I'm awfully sad today. This is the turning point of the world's opinion. Russia will never be forgiven for this, although we forgave Germany and Japan and now we are friends. I don't think we are ever going to forgive Russia for this. It is up to the Russian people to take down Putin and his thugs. But, I think the consequences for the average Russian is far greater than when other countries have protested their own governments aggression. Still, it's the price you pay for being free.

Putin is a dictator. Death to all dictators. People shall be free.

Ukraine,

[Tetrachloride]

1. A "safe passage" of cargo vessels in the Black Sea enforced by Nato is my wish

[EndlessWire]

3. I wish for

something explosive shoved up the backside of the Russian navy. That's all they understand.

[Mr. Evil]

14. I wish they had a small EMP drone

and set it off right above a warship to knock out all radio communication and then a mysterious torpedo obliterates it. It sinks and no one knows what happened. Poof!

[EndlessWire]

15. Very interesting approach to the problem. n/t

[Calista241]

24. It basically already is.

To even get to the Black Sea, you have to sail through the Dardanelles Strait, which is controlled by Turkey, a NATO country.

We can control who goes where into the Black Sea. If a ship or a Navy does something we don't like, then they can enjoy their permanent stay in the Black Sea.

[Tetrachloride]

26. I meant the entire Black Sea. Not just a door.

[EndlessWire]

28. Yes, all of this is correct.

We had, at one time, a US warship sailing around the Black Sea. We probably still have assets there.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/03/russian-navy-landing-ships-seen-approaching-ukrainian-coast-near-odessa/

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:29.9/centery:44.9/zoom

If you look at the Marine Traffic site, you can see that there is developing a blank spot devoid of shipping near the conflict area. In the Azov, Russia fired on shipping until now there is no visible traffic there. They reportedly sank at least two commercial vessels, and they got away with that. So, I would think that firing in the Black Sea will have significantly higher prices to pay.

Anytime Russia feels threatened, they run out the "nuclear war" vision like it's their willy. This is going to come to a confrontation of some sort. Look at the countries bordering the Black Sea. Because of the bizarre way Russia conducts itself, it is entirely possible that they could fire on one of those countries and sail away, never to be held accountable. They can easily control the Black Sea traffic.

The question is, will they attempt to take the two key straits? This is going from bad to worse.

[Igel]

2. Depending on the day (and time of day) my views can be a bit extreme.

But I still think that Belgorod and Taganrog should be declared Ukrainian territory--any Russian citizens that want to move can move, preferably to where Putin and Shoigu think that Russia shouldn't have abandoned (the far north ). If they stay, they keep their Russian citizenship but after 10 years must choice--Ukr citizenship or keep their Russian citizenship and apply for residence permits.

This sounds evil. But it's exactly how a lot of claims were settled after WWII--which war Russia seems to be stuck in. Curzon line? Shift populations? Sure. Ethnic cleaning of Germans in Czechoslovakia and Poland, ethnic cleansing of Poles in newly acquired Belorussian territory. Even Slovenia and Italy got in on the act, and Slovak and Hungarian speakers were balanced between the two countries.

Of course, things went badly. Slovenes and Italians were to swap places, abandoned property to be turned over to the new ethnically homogeneous arrivals. But Italy didn't, while Slovenia did. Meaning that there's a bunch of angry Italians who were wronged and want Slovenia to pay up (sorry, Italy reneged, unapologetically). Germans wanted lands in Poland and Czechia back (again, sorry, military defeats after supremacist-style genocide and oppression has consequences).

Putin fantasizes about being Stalin against the naZis, sort like Hitler imagining he's actually Churchill? Fine, let the naZi suffer like they did last time round.

[hlthe2b]

4. I honestly don't know how we avoid engagement at this point. Honestly. Much of the food supply

for Africa, India, and elsewhere across that part of the world will be devastated by the loss of Ukrainian agriculture. The entire country, its people, its infrastructure, homes, cities, and yes, animals are being devastated beyond what most of us imagined and there is no end in sight. It has become one infinite setting for war crimes.

And the loss of Ukraine is as much a risk to the US and the world, at this point IMHO, as would be most NATO countries. I did not feel this way even a week ago. But, I don't see a way out without escalation and I think that will mean NATO engagement. No bravura here. I just can't imagine months and even years of this and there is no way I believe Putin will be satisfied with a destroyed, vanquished Ukraine alone. I believe my parents and grandparents were right when they decried that we should have stopped Hitler early on when it was feasible. Will we now repeat that mistake with a tyrant whose malign ambitions may well approach those of Hitler?

Maybe humans are destined to end the world as we know it--either through unaddressed climate change and the destruction/famine that will accompany it or from war. When 30% of Americans can show support for Putin and his authoritarian partners, including Trump, I don't think such alarmist views are mine alone nor represents unbridled hyperbole.

[femmedem]

5. +1

The number of people who will die of starvation because of this war will dwarf the direct casualties.

[Evolve Dammit]

13. well said.

[AllyCat]

27. Yes. This is right on point. I like Fahreed Zaharia's interview

Today with Khodhorovsky…we are emboldening Putin by dinking around with weak sanctions and playing hardball.

[mysteryowl]

6. Shocking that there are so many missiles & artillery to keep doing this.

[oldsoftie]

7. I've mentioned striking the Kremlin too. Its about 270mi from the border.

I don't think they have the capability, but it'd be nice

[EndlessWire]

33. Then we need to give them the capability. n/t

[raging moderate]

8. Yes, this is massacre and destruction.

And rape and torture of children and deliberate murder of birthing mothers and newborn/unborn babies.

Genocide.

War crimes.

[lunatica]

9. With Putin gone our two countries could be friends

Why not? It can certainly happen!

[gaskinite]

10. A nuclear submarine

Could sneak up and sink 5 or 6 Russian ships in about 10 minutes.

Would anyone know who did it? Probably not.

[Nululu]

12. Flying Tigers of WWII, Lincoln brigade

We must end Russia's invasion and occupation of Ukraine. This is genocide.

[NoMoreRepugs]

16. Forgive Russia?? Tucker and the RePutinicans in this country side with them.

[maxsolomon]

17. Odessa is on the Black Sea, not the Sea of Azov.

"I am not allowed say what I really think here at DU"?

That's weird, because I am.

[EndlessWire]

21. I have no doubt

that you can say what you want. I, on the other hand, was held to be in violation. I don't mind, but I don't want to antagonize any moderator just trying to do their duty. Life is too short. So, I want to drop this part. I'm just a little miffed, and a little confused, when I read other people making their opinions felt. I guess I'll go back and reread the TOS, but I doubt that I will spend much time doing that. I'm trying to color within the lines, however.

As far as where Odessa is located: Of course, there are plenty of maps for people to consult to locate Odessa. The reference I read from the first reports indicated that Russia had shot from warships located in the AZOV sea. This did not factor for me because missiles and shells can be shot from a long way off and it didn't necessarily mean that they couldn't shoot from the Azov. For example, the missile that flew over Moldova and Hungary and ended up in Slovakia (and I wondered at the time if it could have crossed that body of water and ended up in Italy, but I thought that far fetched and improbable.)

As far as how far a shell can be shot, I don't know; I am limited to WW2 and don't know how far inland they can hurl a shell. But, a missile could definitely have targeted Odessa, and "shelling" might consist of missiles which can travel a good distance. So, I haven't ruled out the point of origin as actually being in the AZOV Sea.

You seem pretty eager to engage in argument. I don't mind being wrong about something. I have learned to accept inaccuracy and to admit it when I am wrong. But, I am not wrong here. Yes, Odessa is located on the Black Sea. You are not wrong there, either.

[onecaliberal]

22. In regard to Russia I can't say what I think either.

It’s not very nice.

[Lonestarblue]

18. I believe NATO will eventually be forced to act because the atrocities will be too great.

Negotiating with Putin is a fool’s effort because he is a liar and cannot be trusted to do what he agrees to do. Why wait, allowing thousands more Ukrainians to be murdered and more of their cities be destroyed. I’m generally anti-war, but Putin needs to be stopped, and the only thing he respects is greater force. He will not be deposed from within Russia. He needs to be kidnapped and sent to The Hague to stand trial for massive war crimes.

[DallasNE]

19. Send A Few Anti-ship Harpoon Missiles To Ukraine n/t

[marie999]

20. The war has to be taken to Russia.

NATO needs to send Ukraine missiles that can hit Russian military complexes in Russia and Belarus. NATO, including the US, needs to send every available weapon to Ukraine that its soldiers can use. I would like to see the US send fighters and bombers to Ukraine and volunteers who are veterans who can fly them. We helped Russia in WWII with Lend-Lease, let's do the same for Ukraine.

[Calculating]

31. Agreed

At this point I feel like this is more than any ordinary war. It's a war against evil. Russia represents the darkest side of man and they're committing attrocities.

[smirkymonkey]

23. Just an FYI, it is now spelled Odesa (westernized Ukrainian spelling, like Kyiv).

Odessa was the westernized Russian spelling, like Kiev.

[femmedem]

30. Thanks for the FYI. Washington Post still calls it Odessa; NYTimes called it Odesa today.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/03/odessa-ukraine-russian-stirkes-port/

https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/europe/100000008286211/russian-missiles-strike-ukrainian-port-city-of-odesa.html?searchResultPosition=1 (The NYTimes has spelled it both ways in the last few months.)

[EndlessWire]

32. Yes, TY! n/t

[FakeNoose]

25. We need to start supplying OUR oil to Russia's former customers

Maybe even sell it at a discount. Let's see how long Pootie stays in power.
I'll bet he'll be thrown out in less than 6 months.

[Meowmee]

29. Anyone who goes to a a peace talk

Better wear a hazmat suit and gas/ vapor mask