Scholars and historians, has any nation won a war they fought exclusively defensively?

[mahina]

Are there examples of nations in some proximity who fought only in their own territory and not on their attacker’s land?

Can Ukraine win without an offensive actions on Russia?*

I’m not advocating for that, I see the dangers, but hope to find hopeful examples.

Thanks in advance.

*(one fuel depot across the border aside)

[kysrsoze]

1. Vietnam. The US eventually had to evacuate.

Afghanistan also eventually fought off the Russians.

I agree with you though… i think Ukraine should start attacking more inside Russia if they have the equipment and people to do it.

[dalton99a]

2. +1. But technically the South Vietnamese lost to the invading North Vietnamese

although the Americans bombed the shit out of North Vietnam - and even parts of Laos and Cambodia

[mahina]

4. True too.

[Mad_Machine76]

53. Right

That was essentially a civil war between the anti-communists and the communists and we were there backing the anti-communists but eventually had to withdraw after we realized we couldn't win. I would argue that our presence there likely turned even a lot of our allies against us by the end.

[hunter]

54. Those borders were artificial, drawn up by foreign powers in 1954...

...after French Indochina was dissolved under the Geneva Accords.

Previously, French Indochina had been taken by Japan during World War II and puppet governments installed, starting with pro-Vichy French administrators and later restructured as The Empire of Vietnam.

Hồ Chí Minh, a communist, fought for independence from the French and the end of the Japanese occupation.

The U.S.A., as usual, was more comfortable with fascist puppets than communists like Hồ Chí Minh so it tried to hold those 1954 borders, which had been drawn up along the lines of French colonial prejudices and were never meant to be permanent.

As communists took control of the northern Vietnam large numbers of people fearing persecution, especially Catholics, moved south with assistance from the U.S.A., further polarizing the nation. (The first Catholic missionaries from France arrived in 1658, which is how France and Catholicism were established there...)

The Vietnam War was not about geographical borders, it was about ideological borders.

Authoritarians of all types -- communist, fascist, racist, religious, etc. -- exploit these divisions. So do more powerful nations when they are seeking to control the resources of smaller less powerful nations. It's much less costly for a powerful nation to develop a friendly relationship with a smaller nation's strong man than it is to actually occupy a less powerful nation.

[mahina]

3. True. But to be clear I'm def not saying they should.

They know what they are doing and don’t need my advice or critique.

I’m looking for hope.

Vietnam is an example. I’ll amend my question to include geographic proximity. Mahalo!

[former9thward]

6. Vietnam is not a great example.

North Vietnam sent its troops to South Vietnam. The U.S. never put its army into N. Vietnam. The U.S. did not have to evacuate. It did evacuate tired of a no win situation -- similar to Afghanistan.

[mahina]

8. Never publicly or at scale anyway.

Laos, Cambodia, same, or and rules aside

[tirebiter]

5. No and it won't happen this time

To anybody’s satisfaction.
“I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve”- Isoroku Yamamoto after Pearl Harbor.
After we get Ukraine and Russia to stalemate NATO and EU (We) can use a carrot stick approach to deal with Russia fairly for all involved. We all still have climate change to deal with.

[mahina]

7. Hmm good insight, thank you.

I see the Putin’s whole shot here as a lethal last gasp (hopefully last) of the fossil fuel authoritarian bandits.

Hope. Hope and ammo.

[3Hotdogs]

9. ...somethin', somethin.... George Washington,.....

.... Somethin'.... Lord Cornwallis....... George III.

[mahina]

10. Proximal though?

[Wounded Bear]

39. In the end, the Colonials counter-attacked, with French assistance...nt

[RockRaven]

11. Depends a lot on how one defines "win" and "defensively"

And even how one defines a discrete war, and what counts as a country, for that matter. There are either a lot or maybe none at all, depending on how one defines all of the terms.

Russia/Napolean in 1812 immediately comes to mind.

So does France in WWI (or nearly so, the very southern end of the western front was in German territory, but almost all of the fighting from the first day until armistice was in France and Belgium)

Soviets vs Mujahideen in Afghanistan in the 80s.

The Falklands War was nominally defensive for the British, who won.

[lagomorph777]

40. Afghanistan vs US

[ruet]

48. Afghanistan was a Military Victory for the US.

The failure of the occupation is a political defeat.

[former9thward]

12. Winter War between Finland and Russia 1939.

Russia invaded Finland and was defeated. Russia got its revenge a couple years later when Finland joined the Nazis. That war (The Continuation War) went from 1941-44 and Russia won.

[RockRaven]

13. Despite the disproportionate casualties, the Finns clearly lost the Winter War. IMO.

Of course, it depends on how one decides what matters more for win/loss, casualties or territory.

These were the terms which ended the war:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Peace_Treaty
Significant economically and strategically valuable territory was ceded to the Soviets, amongst other things, exceeding the Soviets' prewar demands. That's a loss to me, even though they kicked many asses on their way to that loss.

[Straw Man]

26. Except that Finland never became a Soviet client state.

They retained their independence, a democratic form of government, and a capitalist economy. Compared to what happened to the rest of Eastern Europe, I would call that a win. I must admit, though, that as a second generation Finnish-American, I am somewhat biased.

[roamer65]

14. This conflict is nowhere near done yet.

Watch Belarus.

[Chili]

15. Russia

In a quick summary, during WWII, Hitler stupidly thought Germany could successfully invade Russia, breaking his non-aggression pact with Stalin. He split the German army and attacked 3 cities at once: Leningrad, Stalingrad, and Moscow. This, while fighting French resistance and bombing England on two fronts. The attacks began in June 1941 - summer. By November, German forces were exhausted, cold, and out of supplies. German troops were devastated by a freezing winter and had to fall back. Hitler had completely underestimated Stalin's army. All he had to do was look at a map, but no. Russia regrouped and captured most of the German army, and pushed them all the way back to Germany.

Not sure if that meets your criteria of being exclusively defensive. But what does seem to meet it - sorta - is the American Revolution. True, American colonies were not a country yet, but they defended the land against the British invasion and won, without being able to attack England in return.

[mahina]

16. Russia v Hitler is a terrific example, thank you.

US vEnglamd doesn’t quite as they are so far apart, but I appreciate your Thinking together!

[Chili]

25. most welcome!

[muriel_volestrangler]

27. Russia advanced into Germany in WW2, however - they took Berlin

The Western Front of World War I seems a better example - by 11 Nov, the front line was still basically the French-German border, and slightly into Belgium:



(dotted red line is the 11th Nov front line)

For the war as a whole, of course, many other offensives had happened, on other fronts and in other continents.

[mahina]

36. Thank you Muriel that's a really helpful response

[Spider Jerusalem]

23. No, they had the French navy for that

the American Revolution isn't the best example, because the US DID have a great power ally in the form of France, that was supplying not just weapons but also ships and soldiers.

[mahina]

29. And also they were far distant.

[DanieRains]

17. Afghanistan Multiple Times

[mahina]

18. Versus others nearby?

Other than the British, Russian and us, I don’t know anything about prior military victories. I’m curious about victories against nearby aggressors. If time permits, thank you for sharing.

[GaYellowDawg]

21. It wasn't Russia. It was the Soviet Union.

And the Soviet Union bordered Afghanistan. Isn’t that nearby enough?

[Crunchy Frog]

19. There's the Winter War in Finland.

They lost some territory, but they kept their independence.

[Tomconroy]

20. Ukraine has gone on the offensive a bit. Watch to see if they can

Actually take Kherson. It isn't clear if they have enough weapons to launch a large offensive.
To answer your question: The Taliban never even won a battle. But there they are.
But you are right. It's pretty rare. Eventually you need to go on the offensive. Like we did in the Revolutionary War.

[Spider Jerusalem]

22. Depends on how you define a win

Ukraine continuing to exist as an independent nation might be regarded as a win, despite the near-certainty of some territorial losses in any peace settlement, considering that Putin's evident initial war aim was outright annexation.

[patricia92243]

24. I thought we did - the Revolutionary War. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. Not really "in proximity", though

Wars of independence from a remote colonial power are different (they also don't involve an initial offensive). You could also make a case that as a "revolution", it was a civil war anyway.

[Coventina]

30. 80 years war between Spain and what became the Dutch Republic

100% defensive on the Dutch side.

But it took 80 years and many, many dead.

[mahina]

31. Wow

That’s kind of unimaginable

I never even knew about that. Thank you.

It’s just awful it was so long.

[Coventina]

32. 1568-1648

You're welcome!
It's a fascinating story.

[mahina]

33. I feel a little better for never having heard of it

I’ll see if I can read up on it.

[Kaleva]

34. The Mongol invasions of Japan. Numerous wars of independence.

The Great Northern War , the defeat of the Ottomans in Austria in the 1500s, the Picts victories over the Romans, the Arab- Israeli War of 1948, the Sino- Vietnam War come to mind

The 8 year long Iran-Iraq War might be an example. While Iran did make air attacks on Iraqi military targets within Iraq, the ground fighting was confined to Iran who were trying to drive out the invading Iraqis.

[Jack the Greater]

49. But Japan did not repulse the Mongol invasion. Mother Nature did.

And the Mongols were not in close proxomity.

[Kaleva]

50. You're talking about the invasion of 1274. I'm talking about the invasion of 1281

[ms liberty]

35. This thread right here is why I love this place. Thanks, mahina, and good morning! n/t

[mahina]

45. Aloha Ms Liberty,

You can find many much better but I too appreciate the knowledge and wisdom in this group.

Did you see the post of Common Dreams, "Putin's Agression Shows Why Defeating Autocracy is Key to Combatting Climate Change? by Bill McKibbon, posted by Appalachiablue here https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016320072

That's a message that needs spreading!

[SmallFry]

37. Afghanistan. NT

[sammythecat]

38. France (Napoleon) vs. Russia

Total disaster for the French.

[Tom Kitten]

41. Greeks stopping the Persians from invading

Battles of Marathon, Thermopylae, Salamis, Platea... That goes back awhile, though.

[mahina]

43. Interesting! I heard retired Admiral Stavidus on Thermopylae but don't remember much.

I def didn't study these kind of things, though I observe some envy in my heart for those who did. Books in my small library that I started and never finished look down on me, literally. Ha!

After more time than I care to admit to spent googling, I'll have to accept Persia and Greece as proximal then. As a poster above said, definitions... Thanks for your thoughtful reflection.

[appalachiablue]

47. +1 It's all relevant, tx.

[ruet]

51. The Greeks Counterattacked Outside of Their Borders Many Times.

The Greeks lost at Thermopylae and Artemisium and the war went on long after Plataea and Mycale. Marathon was 10 years before Thermopylae. I think the question, as asked, is too vague.

[Hekate]

42. KnR

[mahina]

44. aloha Hekate,

Hope~

[hatrack]

46. France in the 100 Years' War . . .

Disclaimers:

1. 1337-1453 - that's a four- or five-generation conflict, which is pretty much beyond our imaginations today.
2. It wasn't constant - there were multiple truces, some lasting for years.
3. "France" as such was a concept that didn't resonate until late in the conflict - national identity was still a work in progress. The emergence of a sense of national identity late in the war was key to making French victory possible.
4. Before that happened, what would become France was in large part dismembered by the alliance of England and Burgundy.

[Brother Buzz]

52. The Modoc Nation was totally NOT being defeated in the Modoc War until....

Things went sideways with the Peace Commission.

https://www.oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/modoc_war/#.YlSQ8NJKi70