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Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:16 PM

When people don't support student debt relief.

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105 replies, 4507 views

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Reply When people don't support student debt relief. (Original post)
Sympthsical Apr 13 OP
JustAnotherGen Apr 13 #1
ret5hd Apr 13 #3
JustAnotherGen Apr 13 #16
Cuthbert Allgood Apr 13 #24
ret5hd Apr 13 #44
Cuthbert Allgood Apr 13 #8
Emile Apr 14 #70
RANDYWILDMAN Apr 14 #82
inthewind21 Apr 14 #101
SYFROYH Apr 13 #2
Farmer-Rick Apr 13 #39
Hoyt Apr 13 #4
Scrivener7 Apr 13 #18
certainot Apr 13 #43
Skittles Apr 13 #5
SergeStorms Apr 13 #41
smirkymonkey Apr 14 #58
Gidney N Cloyd Apr 13 #6
kcr Apr 13 #14
Budi Apr 13 #21
kcr Apr 13 #25
Budi Apr 13 #27
kcr Apr 13 #29
Budi Apr 13 #31
Gidney N Cloyd Apr 13 #28
kcr Apr 13 #32
JI7 Apr 14 #61
betsuni Apr 14 #63
inthewind21 Apr 14 #102
betsuni Apr 14 #104
smirkymonkey Apr 13 #7
Gidney N Cloyd Apr 13 #13
BannonsLiver Apr 13 #9
Mister Ed Apr 13 #10
betsuni Apr 13 #48
Mister Ed Apr 13 #49
betsuni Apr 13 #52
Amishman Apr 13 #11
kcr Apr 13 #17
Pobeka Apr 13 #23
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #80
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #67
Amishman Apr 14 #72
Tomconroy Apr 13 #12
Hoyt Apr 13 #19
progressoid Apr 13 #47
themaguffin Apr 13 #15
Pobeka Apr 13 #22
Voltaire2 Apr 14 #68
themaguffin Apr 14 #74
Pobeka Apr 13 #20
SoonerPride Apr 13 #30
kcr Apr 13 #33
Pobeka Apr 13 #34
kcr Apr 13 #35
Pobeka Apr 13 #38
DSandra Apr 13 #26
inthewind21 Apr 14 #103
Celerity Apr 13 #36
The Jungle 1 Apr 13 #37
pnwmom Apr 13 #40
Farmer-Rick Apr 13 #42
Hoyt Apr 13 #45
Farmer-Rick Apr 13 #53
Hoyt Apr 13 #54
Farmer-Rick Apr 13 #56
Hoyt Apr 13 #57
Farmer-Rick Apr 14 #62
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #66
Farmer-Rick Apr 14 #76
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #77
Farmer-Rick Apr 14 #78
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #79
Farmer-Rick Apr 14 #81
Hoyt Apr 14 #83
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #86
Farmer-Rick Apr 14 #99
Hoyt Apr 14 #100
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #64
Voltaire2 Apr 14 #71
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #73
Farmer-Rick Apr 14 #75
Voltaire2 Apr 16 #105
Hoyt Apr 14 #84
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #85
Hoyt Apr 14 #87
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #88
Hoyt Apr 14 #89
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #90
Hoyt Apr 14 #91
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #92
Hoyt Apr 14 #94
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #93
Hoyt Apr 14 #95
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #96
Hoyt Apr 14 #98
Thtwudbeme Apr 14 #65
Voltaire2 Apr 14 #69
gulliver Apr 13 #46
ForgedCrank Apr 13 #50
Tree Lady Apr 13 #51
Autumn Apr 13 #55
Bettie Apr 14 #59
smirkymonkey Apr 14 #60
Bluesaph Apr 14 #97

Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:18 PM

1. Disagree eom

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:23 PM

3. I had to suffer thru chemo and radiation treatments...

fuck those working on pre-emptive treatments/cures!!!

(I fortunately have not yet had to undergo such treatments, but see how that sounds)

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:42 PM

16. I have to suffer through the John Lewis Voting Rights Act not being

fixed with a Presidential Mandate and/or lifting the filibuster . . .


See how this sounds to non white Democrats?


Well myyyyyy student loans come first.


Well myyyyyyyyyyyyyy aunts and uncles and cousins and family in Alabaman, Georgia, and Texas come before their stupid stinking student loans.


No voting rights - this country gets NOTHING from us.

That's taxation without representation. That ain't right - and you know it.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:57 PM

24. Non-Whites don't have student loans?

Do tell how you think that's true?

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 04:26 PM

44. Make sure we don't do anything to make young people...

vote for Demís!!!

I hear your frustration, but blocking student loan relief isnít gonna fix the issues you speak of.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:29 PM

8. That's compelling.

Any insight on to why you disagree?

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #8)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:35 AM

70. LOL +1

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #1)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 10:41 AM

82. Rich people just laugh, Ah the little people fighting over crumbs again, SWEET!

My wife's former law partner went through law school in the 70's and paid for it with his part time job.

My wife graduated law school in 1999, took us till 2018 to pay off the more then 100k of debt

Both went to affordable state schools

Tell me to my face my wife got a thousand times better education ???

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Response to RANDYWILDMAN (Reply #82)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 06:13 PM

101. Well

I hear that at Duke university they are Teaching a super special kind of algebra, not that cheap stuff you get at community college! lol No offense to your wife, I hear you. I just always wondered if Harvard was teaching a better English than what was being taught at the local community college.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:20 PM

2. And -- Sure we can cancel the debt, but the problem will recreate itself


That's the same rationale some people use against amnesty for immigrants without documentation.

We can't help people now because we might have to help more later.

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Response to SYFROYH (Reply #2)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 04:01 PM

39. But things worked out fine the last time loans were forgiven.

I'm a boomer and I never paid more than $30 a month for the $5,000 I borrowed. Back in 1975 my annual tuition was $800 at Temple University. And none of my loans earned interest until 6 months after I got out of college.

Now kids are paying thousands and the interest keeps making their compounded interest loans bigger and bigger. Interest accumulates from the second they get a loan and never, ever, stops.

Also there was this:

"Although the ISA concept has been around for some time, relatively few examples exist. Yale University provided a ďTuition Postponement OptionĒ in the 1970s that we would today call an ISA. It provided that students would pay 0.4% of their future income for each $1,000 borrowed for the lesser of thirty-five years or until their whole loan cohort had paid off its debt. The plan was offered only
from 1971 to 1978, and in 1999, Yale canceled all the outstanding debt even though no class had fully paid off its debt." Redesigning Education Finance: How Student Loans Outgrew the ďDebtĒ Paradigm PDF file.

I had a loan like that from Temple but they were a**holes about me paying back the $300 loan so I paid it all off when I was an Ensign in the Navy even though I could have deferred all payments and interest until I got out of the Navy....20 years later.

Median household income has barely increased since 1975 but college tuition has increased over 120%. That is why our students are paying such a huge debt.

All the Baby Boomers got great deals on student loans (low interest rates, deferred accumulation of interest, deferred and cancelled student loans based on civic, volunteer and military service, or just because the school didn't want the administrative burden) but ever since 2000, student loans have just been another wealth extraction system for the filthy rich. Student loans were never a hardship for most Baby Boomers but they are equal to the burden of having to pay off a house mortgage for students today.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:24 PM

4. Here are some good facts about those with student loan debt. Some definitely need help. Others

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #4)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:49 PM

18. That's kind of eye opening.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #4)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 04:21 PM

43. another fact: 87+ universities support 260+ xlimbaugh stations that howl against student debt relief

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:25 PM

5. I don't think people are clamoring for free stuff

they want AFFORDABLE stuff......Bernie should concentrate on lowering tuition, not feeding into the liberal stereotype

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Response to Skittles (Reply #5)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 04:21 PM

41. A moratorium on interest rates would be a huge help.

I don't think most people mind paying something for a college education, they just don't want to keep paying forever to cover interest fees.

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Response to SergeStorms (Reply #41)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 12:11 AM

58. And believe me, they have you roped in forever unless you can pay it off in a few years, which very

 

few of us can do. It's such a trap, because most of us had no idea how the interest on these loans could balloon to insane amounts and make these loans almost impossible to pay off, even with a decent income. Unless you live like a pauper for decades of your adult life just so the creditors can make money off you.

I fucking refused to do that. I went for the income sensitive plan, which was the most palatable option for me w/out going into default, but sometimes I really just want to tell them to Eff-off and die. I really wish someone would blow their computers and burn down their physical facilities. They are vultures.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:27 PM

6. Those don't really compare well.

Frame 2: Everyone would get 40 hour weeks including those that didn't up til then (presumably including the working folks on the picket line)

Frame 3: Everyone woman would get to vote, including those who hadn't up to that point.

Frame 4: Everyone would benefit from fire/cooking, even Thrug, who might not get sick so often.

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Response to Gidney N Cloyd (Reply #6)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:38 PM

14. The comparison is dead on

They are all examples of older people resentful of any change that will make things easier for generations after them. Frame 2, Frame 3, Frame 4. All the same, just like people resenting help for college students. None of them care that they could now benefit from those changes. They simply feel like if they had to suffer during their younger years, so should everyone else.

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Response to kcr (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:53 PM

21. Resentful old people?? Wow. 🙄

 

Some of those with college loans are also 'old people' who returned to expand on the degrees they have, or find that the job advancement they need requires updating skills.

Resentful old people... jfc.

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Response to Budi (Reply #21)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:57 PM

25. Old people can't be resentful?

Yes, older people can and do return to college to expand their learning. I'm so glad you pointed that out because the person I responded to doesn't seem to think so.

Note I said, "older people". Not "old people" as you claim.

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Response to kcr (Reply #25)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 02:05 PM

27. College loans cannot be pigeonholed into an age demographic.

 

Which is all I hear about it.

Its intentionally divisive & if that thinking is who's demanding their loan be paid off, then I'm definately going to object.
Maybe they need to go back to school 🙄

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Response to Budi (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 02:10 PM

29. You are absolutely right. Look at the comic in the OP again

They were all examples of older people talking to younger people. I was responding to a poster who was specifically talking about that comic, and that comic was what I was referring to.

You are absolutely right. People of all ages attend college. This is why the person I was responding to was wrong when he claimed there was a difference. In all cases, the people complaining can benefit from the change.

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Response to kcr (Reply #29)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 02:18 PM

31. Yes.

 

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Response to kcr (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 02:07 PM

28. I disagree. As I'm reading it:

The angry people in frames 2, 3, and 4 are failing to see that they themselves will benefit directly from the change. It's not that they don't care that they could benefit, they don't SEE the real benefit that is clearly there for them. Meanwhile, the guy in frame 1 really will not benefit from loan forgiveness. He may be a self-centered prick, but he's not missing anything.
I'm not arguing one way or the other here about loan forgiveness, just that the metaphors are off.

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Response to Gidney N Cloyd (Reply #28)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 02:18 PM

32. If you point out how they can benefit

Then the next maneuver is to figure out a way that only they benefit, but not those other people. Og will want a fire so he can cook his meals, but everyone else not like him should be banned from using it. People with this mindset are deeply flawed. Progress has to continue whether they like it or not. Pandering to them simply doesn't work. I'm not opposed to pointing out those benefits. It just doesn't address the real root of the resentment.

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Response to kcr (Reply #14)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 12:29 AM

61. But it's not old people. It's mostly young people that are resentful . And this isn't that big an

issue anyways for young people because if it was they would have voted for Elizabeth Warren for President but they didn't .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #61)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 01:31 AM

63. Yes, if it was such an important all-or-nothing single issue matter Warren or Sanders

would've been the nominee. Sanders promised to cancel ALL student debt.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #63)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 06:19 PM

102. And if

you believe that The President can just unilaterally do that, may I suggest you get back to school for a civics class.

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Response to inthewind21 (Reply #102)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 06:31 PM

104. Then why does anyone think Biden can do it, or imagine he promised to?

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:29 PM

7. How about this?

 

We agree that people have to pay back what they borrowed, but cancel the exorbitant amount of compounded interest on these loans.

This is what is crushing most student borrowers, especially the ones (like me) who have had to go into forebearance due to unforseen circumstances (and where the lender would not make payment arrangements with them to allow them to pay back less than the full amount due) which is what got most people in over their heads in the first place?

I have already paid back more than twice what I borrowed ($50k) and I still owe them $120k. I will never pay it off as long as I live and I will never be able to save enough for retirement, which shouldn't be too far away for me (10 years). It sucks.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:36 PM

13. Charge a small service fee at the outset then don't charge interest.

Your situation is horrific. We profit from an educated populace, we don't need to profit from interest on the loans for that education as well.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:30 PM

9. Grade A sophistry

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:31 PM

10. What I DON'T support is...

...letting Congress go to the Republicans unless all student debt is cancelled by November.

I know (or I hope) that I'm preaching to the choir here on DU, but there really are many young people taking this stance - among them, friends of my daughter.

The Republican party is actively, strenuously waging war on the rights of women and LGBTQ people. Will their rights, their safety, and perhaps even their lives be sacrificed over this issue?

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Response to Mister Ed (Reply #10)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 06:15 PM

48. Do they know that Republicans will never ever ever do anything about student loans?

Do they think both parties are the same? Does an all-or-nothing situation appeal to them? I just don't understand. Why are they suddenly one-issue voters like Republicans, or maybe they aren't voters anyway? It all seems so ... fake or something.

Cancelling student loan supporter Cory Bush gave as one of her reasons for voting against banning Russian oil that "it fails to address the underlying problem." But a one-time fix of cancelling loans doesn't do anything to address the underlying problem, so I don't know why it's been turned into this huge thing.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #48)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 06:23 PM

49. I think they are influenced by social media.

And I doubt that the influencers are of honorable intention, if indeed they're people at all and not bots.

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Response to Mister Ed (Reply #49)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 06:36 PM

52. +1

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:32 PM

11. Yup, that selfishness is an ugly side of human nature - and can be exploited

In any legislation for student debt relief, include a credit of some kind for those who paid theirs off. Make those who are being selfish want the bill to pass - because it benefits them too.

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Response to Amishman (Reply #11)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:48 PM

17. Yes, and not just for student debt

It can be used against anything. The basic formula is: I didn't get nothin', nobody gets nothin'! It's a cousin to I got mine, fuck everyone else! People are petty.

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Response to Amishman (Reply #11)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:56 PM

23. And for those who scrimped and saved and worked to fund their education too.

There are a lot of folks in that category too.

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Response to Pobeka (Reply #23)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 10:14 AM

80. I am sorry, but the "prize" you got for that

was your education- hopefully with little or no debt.

As I wrote in answer to this- Legislation that benefits society will not benefit every person.

I bartended and paid off my loans. Now I would like to live in a society where our youth are not crippled by debt or fear of medical bills. You- and I- "got ours." It's time to help the younger generations become educated and accrue wealth so they can continue the trend.

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Response to Amishman (Reply #11)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:27 AM

67. Disagree

Not everything that is instituted for the general good of society benefits every individual.

I paid mine off, but realize the benefit to society to cancel that unbearable debt.

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Response to Thtwudbeme (Reply #67)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 08:43 AM

72. you are the selfless exception; most people are stupid selfish assholes

and while extremely frustrating, this can be mitigated or even exploited as I said.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:34 PM

12. Probably the bankruptcy laws should be changed to help

The truly desperate

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Response to Tomconroy (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:52 PM

19. Totally agree. Student loans should be dischargeable in bankruptcy.

 

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Response to Tomconroy (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 05:39 PM

47. The bankruptcy laws that a certain senator from Delaware

shepherded through congress?

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:38 PM

15. It's troubling to me that the root problem is not even addressed as the problem

Last edited Wed Apr 13, 2022, 03:17 PM - Edit history (2)

The cost of college (and its increases)

Erasing debt certainly will help some people, but what future students? The current and rising costs are not sound and must be addressed.

(edited typo)

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Response to themaguffin (Reply #15)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:53 PM

22. +1. nt

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Response to themaguffin (Reply #15)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:30 AM

68. It was repeatedly addressed

A certain pair of assholes blocked all progressive legislation including affordable college education reform.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #68)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 09:06 AM

74. That's now what I was referring to

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:53 PM

20. Nope. Bad analogy. REALLY bad analogy.

Those comparisons affect all people going forward in time.

The student loan relief problem is *retroactively* affecting some people who couldn't for whatever reason pay off student loans. They suddenly will have received a free education, while those who paid off loans, or paid full price at the time of education *retroactively* get nothing, so bear the full burden of an education they received.

I have no problem with relieving portions of debt from abusive loan interest rates etc.

BTW -- regardless of your position on this, the smart move if you are suffering from student loan debt is to vote for more progressives/dems in office. The GOP is not interested in anything but you paying full price and the highest possible interest rates on your loan.

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Response to Pobeka (Reply #20)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 02:12 PM

30. I agree. It is a terrible analogy.

If debt forgiveness also came with retroactive payback for my student expenses then please let me know.

I am not against canceling student loan debt going forward but hey if we're giving out free money, then what about me too?

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Response to Pobeka (Reply #20)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 02:23 PM

33. People with college degrees don't have kids or grandkids?

Not to mention there is nothing stopping them from going back to college.

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Response to kcr (Reply #33)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 02:44 PM

34. *retroactive* -- meaning, happening based on past activities. Not future scenarios.

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Response to Pobeka (Reply #34)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 02:51 PM

35. No one in the future could ever possibly benefit from debt forgiveness?

Or do you think that advocates only want this one-time thing to happen, but nothing else, and nothing in the future ever?

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Response to kcr (Reply #35)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 03:54 PM

38. The question is not about the future.

The question is about fairness and equity for people who entered college in the past.

Lowering the cost of college is a separate, and important question.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 01:58 PM

26. This kind of attitude plays into the hands of the right wing rich

It is one of the reasons why we have poor safety nets, because people in this country are put against each other by the business right wing in a traditional divide and conquer strategy. It's one reason why punching down and racism is so prevalent. It's "I suffer day in and day out in life, I can't stand to see other people get off more easy than me, so other people don't deserve to avoid suffering! Especially all those people not like me!"

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Response to DSandra (Reply #26)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 06:24 PM

103. Bingo

And it's right here, on this very thread.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 03:03 PM

36. it is only going to get worse, as the costs spiral upward and the interest charged increases

The entire thing will come back to bite the 'I got mine' crowd in the arse.

The system will reach a breaking point, the same for healthcare.

You simply cannot keep extracting wealth from people at ever-increasing amounts and not end up in the ditch.

Many of the same people on the farthest right quarter or so of the Dem party so often come down on the same side for both issues.

They push to keep the profit motive intact no matter what.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 03:43 PM

37. I will say this

We are a very wealthy nation and Bern is correct, All the money is at the top and that has never worked at any time in history.
We can afford housing, food, healthcare and education for all Americans. The top is going to help. We just haven't told them yet. The problem is we have to many Americans who still believe repukes will help them.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 04:20 PM

40. The difference is that the guy in the top left corner may be paying higher taxes

to give debt relief to students now.

There should be a way to arrange this so the benefits are mostly going to people with fewer assets, and the payments coming mostly from taxpayers at higher levels.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 04:21 PM

42. We Baby Boomers did just fine with our student loans because.......

We got huge deferments, on interest and pay back, for continuing your education. We got low low interest rates. It was great. I'm a Baby Boomer and borrowed the max allowable and paid no more than $30 a month, yet still managed to pay off my loans in less than 5 years.

Don't let anyone fool you, Baby Boomers did in no way have to pay back what students today have to pay back. We had it good. Student debt could be canceled for most anything from volunteer service, to military service, to civic service and the GOPers have taken all that away from current students.

Most Baby Boomers managed to use a really generous loan system and paid back a very small amount of interest. But then it was all taken away. Slowly the student loan system has gotten worse and worse. Tuition has gotten higher and higher while wages stagnated.

There were also tons of student loans being offered by colleges themselves back in the 1970s. The colleges would then quickly cancel the loans because the administrative burden of tracking it became too cumbersome.

Don't believe the hype. Student loans have turned into a scam for the filthy rich to extract wealth from poorer students. Baby Boomers really can't compare the deal they got with what students are saddled with today.

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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #42)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 04:36 PM

45. Obviously, you don't remember student loan interest rates in 1970-1980s.

 

https://www.savingforcollege.com/article/historical-federal-student-interest-rates-and-fees

Interest rates were much higher for boomers. Of course, with the recent inflationary pressures, some students will get to experience higher rates.

I do agree school cost relatively more today, even when adjusted for inflation. That needs to be addressed for future generations.

I'm fine with helping those who didn't improve their financial situation by going to school. But some guy who borrowed $200K to enter a profession where he now makes $150K - $250K needs to pay his damn loans. Similarly, people who borrowed $50K and make an additional $20K to $50K a year because of it, needs to pony up.

I'm for loan balances being dischargeable in bankruptcy, and automatic conversion of loans with repayments based upon income (with increased thresholds than that offered by Income-Drive-Repayment-Plans today).

Also support allowing one to discharge loans by teaching, working in a manpower shortage area. Physicians have had that option for decades, but most choose not to take advantage.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #45)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 06:55 PM

53. Obviously you don't understand how old most Baby Boomers are

I went to college in the mid 1970. Your link has no interest rates for1960s or 1970 to 1978. It ends (or starts?) in the 1980s.

Listen if you can find a link for interest rates for federal student loans in the 1970s please send it my way. I can't find it despite spending time looking for it. I found out that bankruptcy was taken away for student borrowers back when I had one year of college under my belt. And I got loans from the college themselves, which were very low interest. But they weren't federal student loans.

Don't confuse the loans through banks, that back then charged a lot of interest, and the federal loans wich were almost interest free. But if you can find a link to federal loan student interest rates in the 60s and 70s, send it my way.

We really didn't have much interest to pay... It was always deferred even if you only took one class. I paid $30 a month after I agreed to start paying back even though I was still in the Navy and could have had it deferred for many more years. I took out the maximum I could which was only about $5,000 to $6,000.

And even back in the 1980s $30 a month was nothing to pay. But that's what I paid. A far cry from the student debt burden kids are forced to pay back now.

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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #53)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 07:06 PM

54. Went earlier than you. Like me, you probably wouldn't have borrowed

 

$200K unless in medicine.

The rates were high in that period, particularly high around 1980s. Fact Iíd, the current low rates arenít a big problem. Itís the principal.

The link I posted shows rates in 1981- as much as 14%.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #54)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 10:35 PM

56. Well, no one really needed to borrow that much.

When tuition was in the hundreds of dollars not hundreds of thousands. Tuition rates have gone up by 120% but median household income has stagnated since the 1970s.

Just in case my find routine was corrupted, I looked through your link again with my naked eyes. But Nooooooo. Still no 1970s data.

So, post your 1970s data from your link if it's really there.

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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #56)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 10:54 PM

57. Don't think median household income has stagnated. If you can't see

 

that student loan rates track general interest rates, then maybe you should have borrowed a bit more. 1981 data is enough to prove you are wrong about todayís student loan rates vs. decades ago.

Agree tuition rates have increased faster than inflation. That has to be addressed.

And Iíve said loan repayment should be based on income with liberal thresholds. But if people are making substantially more because of education financed by loans, they should pay a portion of that back. Sorry.

Plus, most states have grants that help.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #57)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 01:08 AM

62. So, I was right, there are no 1970 rates at your link

And if you went to college before I did you would have known the maximum amount you could borrow from the federal student loan program in the late 1970s was about $6,000 for undergrade.

The 1980s were Not the 1970s. Just because you know the rates for the 80s does not mean you have the rates for the 70s because they were very different.

The downhill drive to put students into permanent crippling debt started under Ragean. And no, states actually pay less to assist students today then in the 1970s

"In the 1970s, states paid 65 percent of the costs of college. By 2013, states covered a mere 30 percent of college costs. Like students who had to pay more, the federal government seemingly upped its commitment, covering just 10 percent in the 1970s and 16 percent today."

But the federal government also slashed their support of colleges under Ragean.

"In 1981, the Reagan administration, with a coalition of congressional Republicans and conservative Democrats, pushed through Congress a combination of tax- and budget-cutting measures.

No federal program suffered deeper cuts than student aid. Spending on higher education was slashed by some 25 percent between 1980 and 1985. In raw dollar figures, cuts totaled $594 million in student assistance and $338 million in Pell grants. Students eligible for grant assistance freshmen year had to take out student loans to cover their second year. For middle-class families, eligibility was changed as well. Low-cost, low-interest, subsidized federal loans were limited to families with household incomes of less than $32,000, regardless of family size."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/09/02/my-students-pay-too-much-for-college-blame-reagan/

Grants have practically disappeared and have been replaced with high interest predatory loans. It's disgusting that the US has turned college kids into just another scam for the filthy rich to extract wealth from. No other country among the developed nations uses their students like cash cows as the US does.

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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #62)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:14 AM

66. Forgot to give you a link:

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED540303.pdf

You are correct in everything you have written.

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Response to Thtwudbeme (Reply #66)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 09:48 AM

76. Thanks for the support

I appreciate it.

But here's the thing. I think the Internet has been scrubbed of the 1970s numbers. About 5 years ago, I was able to find the numbers pretty easily. But today I can't find the breakdowns. It's kind of weird. I thought I was good at finding odd info on the net. But these 1970s interest rates are hidden somewhere. And I got to wonder why. Maybe it's just too old to be relevant.

Even your link does not address the 1970s but I do appreciate the link for the info it does provide. Thanks.

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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #76)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 09:56 AM

77. The internet isn't really "scrubbed" for nefarious reasons

I guess sometimes it is- but, oftentimes people that ran websites just got tired of messing with them, and let them go. Or sometimes folks die- and no one takes their websites on. It's funny how the internet mimics life that way. I wish I could go back and see some of my now deceased friends geo-cities pages. I have tried to find them, but just using old memories of what they called themselves, etc doesn't work on the sites that cached them.

I don't think it will be too much longer before people are asking how to find "old Facebook pages." Much like malls and big box stores- websites have an expiration date- and we don't know what that is.

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Response to Thtwudbeme (Reply #77)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 10:06 AM

78. Good point

I know the internet doesn't really get scrubbed. The info just isn't carried on the usual servers or websites. But this info was available on a US government webpage. One of the economic statistical pages. But not anymore. Just strange.

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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #78)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 10:10 AM

79. Let me see if I can find it. I am a librarian

I have to go weed and mess in the yard because it's supposed to storm this afternoon-

But, I will look for it for you.

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Response to Thtwudbeme (Reply #79)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 10:32 AM

81. Thanks so much

I would really appreciate it.

But gardening comes first ...I understand.

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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #62)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 12:14 PM

83. No, you were wrong. You just won't admit that current rates are damn low compared to previous years.

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #83)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 01:16 PM

86. And you don't want to admit that students have to

take out 10's of thousands of dollars MORE than you did.

Yes- current rates ARE lower. That said, 6 grand at 30-50 bucks a month sure as hell didn't keep a fella from buying a house/ car/ paying rent or going to Myrtle Beach once a year.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #83)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 06:05 PM

99. Since we don't have the 1970s numbers

You are basically guessing on what those rates were.

So, I'm guessing that they were way way lower and students have become cash cows for the filthy rich.


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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #99)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 06:09 PM

100. Be glad to see what you think they were. We know what borrowers

 

weíre paying on student loans in 81, 41 years ago. You cannot support your belief they are paying more in interest nowadays, at least until recent inflation impact is factored in.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #57)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:04 AM

64. Wrong. Student loans did NOT track "general interest rates"

From the programís inception until 1992, Congress set the
interest rate on student loans at fixed rates ranging from
6.0 percent for loans issued in the 1960s to 10.0 percent for
loans issued between 1988 and 1992.[6] Congress enacted
variable rates in 1992 seeking to better align them with the
interest rate the government paid private lenders holding
the loans, thereby reducing the governmentís costs.[7] The
new variable rates reset once a year based on the interest
rates on short-term U.S. Treasury securities plus 3.1
percentage points (a ďmarkupĒ), capped at 9.0 percent.
Congress made minor adjustments to this formula over the
subsequent six years, lowering the markup and the cap.

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED540303.pdf

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Response to Thtwudbeme (Reply #64)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:36 AM

71. Yeah I was trying to remember my rate.

It was 6%, on a huge $7000 loan, payments and interest deferred until after graduation.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #71)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 08:44 AM

73. Interest accrues now

as soon as you take out the loan. That jacks them up even more.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #71)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 09:32 AM

75. Interest was deferred until 6 months after graduation

In the 1970s. Also you could defer it if you were continuing your education or joined the military or even for the Peace Corps.

Colleges had a lot of loan packages back then too. I know the college loan I got became a grant if I kept my grades up.

Also, you got some amount of a Pell grant back then that none of my kids got in the 90s or 2000s. Do any middle class kids get Pell grants anymore? And my father was a NASA engineer back then so we weren't poor.


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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #75)

Sat Apr 16, 2022, 06:16 PM

105. Pell covered all of my tuition

I donít think it even comes close now.

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Response to Thtwudbeme (Reply #64)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 12:15 PM

84. And current rates are much lower that 6% to 10%

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #84)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 01:09 PM

85. MORTGAGE rates are currently lower.

Here are the rates for SL's right now:
The interest rates for all new federal direct undergraduate student loans are 3.73%, up from 2.75% in 2020-21. Unsubsidized direct graduate student loan rates are 5.28%, up from 4.30%. Rates for PLUS loans, which are for graduate students and parents, are 6.28%, up from 5.30%.


I am really interested in knowing why you are splitting hairs on this issue. Students today do not have the options of the cheap (albeit often crappy) housing around universities in the 60's and 70's. Tuition is obviously more expensive- but, so are food/ textbooks (no, they are NOT all ebooks- I am a librarian), clothing, transportation etc.

"Boomers" and I AM one- did not need to have cell phones, nor did we need laptops to write papers on. PLEASE do not tell me the library has computers- I surely do not want to hear that one as I am a librarian and am well aware of the numbers of computers to students on campus.

Is there a reason you don't think student loans should be forgiven?

No one is suggesting that you did not work hard- however you did not have even close to the same economic obstacles these kids are facing today.

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Response to Thtwudbeme (Reply #85)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 01:45 PM

87. Fact is, most outstanding student loans are held by people who can pay them. Those that can't

 

deserve help, including discharging balance in bankruptcy, conversion to an income-driven repayment plan with liberal thresholds, and outright forgiveness.

A physician might owe $200K. So what, he's making $150K more than he'd make without the education. Plenty of others make $15K to $50K more than they would have made without the education. They can pay some of that $15K to $50K for their education.

I'm not particulary sympathethic to those who used student loans for living expenses. I loved being a graduate student, it was so cool. But at some point, 80% to 90% of those borrowers need to pony up for the experience. The other 10% to 20% need some help.

Sorry.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #87)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:19 PM

88. OK, so let's take a look at your fictional Dr. who financed his education with loans

So, now the person has finished their school and residency-- and gets a job. They are now making 150,000 a year. For the purpose of this post on DU, let's make them single. It's just easier for me.

Here are the average salaries for Dr's. I put ours a little lower because they just got their first job:
https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/physician/salary

That 150,000 comes out to roughly 9 grand or so a month after taxes. So- 8,300.

Here's the average debt for Dr's student loans: say about 200,000. The average time on that loan is 10 years. Here's a link:
https://educationdata.org/average-medical-school-debt

The payment for that loan is going to be over 2,000 a month. I chose an interest rate of 4.2%. As you saw from my former post, it's likely they are paying higher interest rates for some of those loans.
https://wallethub.com/student-loan-calculator

Now let's add rent, and bills that include internet/ smart phone:
1 bedroom in a city like Charlotte, NC (seems pretty middle of the road to me): Our student is going to pay about 2,500 or so to live in an area that is not scary. (I am from Charlotte- that rent is low)
Internet/ phone 200.00
Water/ electric/ gas 700.00
Car payment: 500.00 a month

Now our fella has to eat and buy clothes and pay for gas for his car--- easily 1,000 a month.

All of these bills are FRUGAL. I put him in a nice 1 bedroom apartment and bought him a Subaru Outback since he has to go to work in storms- it's a middle of the road car. I also didn't send him out to eat that much--- those prices for food are from the local Harris Teeter/ Costco/Trader Joes with an occasional trip to Whole Foods down the road.

Now he wants to make a down payment on a house to start building equity. A house in a nice area of Charlotte, but not ridiculous, is going to run him about 350,000 or so. (that's out near the university- I have our fictional person working at Novant near uptown). So, commuting will be way more.

He's going to be able to save about 12 grand a year--- so, it will be years before he can buy a house or start his own business.

I didn't give our Dr. anything frivolous- no cable, no expensive car, no meals out on the town. Heck, I didn't even get him a cat from the local Humane Society. I only provided enough for a roof over his head in a safe area, not far from his work, and gave him enough to pick up a six pack at Trader Joes along with his sandwich stuff, salads etc.

God help him if he is working in a small town where living options are fewer or where he has to drive long distances.

And also- you might want to consider that he might be...a veterinarian with a much lower salary.

We need to do something about student debt- whether you want to admit it or not.

On edit- I had to lower the Dr's take home because I looked up about how much he'll pay in Fed/ State taxes.


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Response to Thtwudbeme (Reply #88)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:28 PM

89. Sorry, that's laughable. If the doc just couldn't make it on $200K a year, paying $15K toward his

 

loan, then he needs to enroll and practice in a rural area where his loan will be forgiven and expenses are less.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #89)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:30 PM

90. ahhh but, our Doc is making LESS than 200K a year

and it's not laughable at all.

You seriously seem out of touch with the real cost of living. I would be too since we are double income/ no kids/ low mortgage- but, I pay attention to other folks.

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Response to Thtwudbeme (Reply #90)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:34 PM

91. No, you seem to be out of touch. Anyone making $15+K a month can afford to pay $1K or $2K toward

 

a loan. It might be tight in NYC of LA, but they can move. Move far enough out, and you'll get your loan forgiven for practicing in a rural area.

If not, they person ought to kick their own ass for being so stupid to borrow that much and crying about it when there are plenty of people living on less than $1K a month.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #91)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:40 PM

92. New Doc's are living on about 8K a month- and that's if they are close

to the high average. Many don't make that much. To get to that salary, you HAVE to be working in an urban area.

Are you aware that shitty old mobile homes in RURAL NC are renting for over 800-900 a month right now?

I didn't put our Doc in LA or NYC--- I moved him to mid sized Charlotte NC.

You have no idea what you are even writing about.

And I am well aware of poverty- I work with TI students.

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Response to Thtwudbeme (Reply #92)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:48 PM

94. Absolutely untrue. 95% of new physicians -- MDs, not chiropractors -- earn more than $8000 month.

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #91)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:42 PM

93. BTW, I too watched Northern Exposure

Joel wasn't exactly rakin' in those big bucks that you keep imagining.

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Response to Thtwudbeme (Reply #93)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:49 PM

95. Joel ain't your typical physician.

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #95)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:52 PM

96. Then tell me about your fantasy of a Dr. who recently got his first job

in a rural area to pay off his student loan.

You think my scenario is "laughable" so...tell me about yours. Go ahead- the metaphorical floor is yours. But, DO back it up with links on salaries, how the student loan is forgiven, etc. Name a real town- I did.

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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #42)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:12 AM

65. You are correct

Student loan interest rates were capped by the government until 1992.

I paid back my first undergraduate loan at 50 bucks a month for four or five years. That amount did not hinder my other purchases (cars, etc).

I am a librarian, so pretty familiar with what people are paying to go to grad school now- it's not uncommon to see masters level and terminal degree holders to owe more than 50K now. Salaries for librarians are about 40-60K a year depending on your part of the country. Lawyers don't make all that much, regardless of what people think. There are many 75K a year new lawyers out there with student loans.

I am not sure why there are so many older folks that cannot seem to track historical differences and will argue til the cows come home about their "hard work" and "bootstraps." Pester them for a bit and get them to admit they inherited property, went to school on the GI bill, had relatives "help" them, etc.

VERY, very few people in the US "make it" on their own- this Horatio Alger crap needs to be shot down, buried, and have cement dumped on its grave.

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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #42)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:32 AM

69. Exactly.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 05:25 PM

46. To me, it's simple. Voters who vote reliably get priority over those why don't

If you voted Dem in one election, your issues all get bumped up by one in priority. You may or may not get everything you want. But you get some of what you want.

Next election, if you vote Dem again, your issues get bumped up again by one. If you fail to vote, your issues get bumped down by one. The loyal, responsible voters get more and more influence in terms of priority. The fickle voters lose influence and their issues are defended less.

It's the only just, fully democratic answer.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 06:27 PM

50. hmm, only one of

those 4 things requires confiscating wealth from other people to pay for it. If we are going to go down that road, where do we stop?
Maybe a more logical approach is to start teaching people better about the long term consequences of borrowing 100 grand for a degree before they sign on the line.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 06:35 PM

51. Maybe it would feel more fair to those people

If it was a set amount which covered all to a regular school but only part of expensive one.

My daughter fits in box one, who went to lesser school because she paid all on her own plus worked while attending school. She has a friend who wants her loan gone who had fun in expensive college no working.

Yes its hard to look back and say things are different now, but a set amount would make it more fair.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2022, 09:37 PM

55. Lot of yipping and yapping going on.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #55)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 12:13 AM

59. Apparently, there are a lot more

"what's in it for me" people than I thought.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #55)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 12:16 AM

60. Can one person tell me why it wouldn't make sense to discharge the remaining loan amount for those

 

who have fully paid off the amount they have borrowed (and most likely have paid some hefty interest already)?

What would be the problem with this? It only limits the amount that Navient or other loan servicers can rake in as profit on student loans. They are getting their money back, they just aren't getting the insane profit along with it.

I still have not heard a good argument against this.

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Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:54 PM

97. Make student loans 0%!!!

Canít Biden do that on his own with the stroke of a pen while they work the other stuff out? That would save many students thousands of dollars and help every dollar they pay back go toward reducing their principal.

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