So it's true, Ukraine got the Russian flagship!

[Tomconroy]

Last edited Wed Apr 13, 2022, 09:23 PM - Edit history (1)

Rob Lee would only put it up if it happened. The Russians admit it, as much as they ever will.
Fuck Putin!

Link to tweet

Supposedly it's lying abandoned on its side.

The Russian version:

Link to tweet

This is one of the biggest stories of the war.

Link to tweet

It's gone.

Link to tweet

[Wingus Dingus]

1. Sweet!

[pwb]

2. Good to see.

I hope they are taking the fight inside Russia too. Take that Comrade.

[taxi]

3. Rescuing 500 crewmembers of an abandoned ship in stormy seas?

It seems there would be ships from all over the Black Sea enroute to assist. The excerpt below indicates that the US would also render assistance.

Duty to Render Assistance to Mariners in Distress During Armed Conflict at Sea: A U.S. Perspective

Most governments and contemporary scholars agree that the duty to render assistance to persons in distress at sea is widely recognized as a long-standing principle of international law. The existence of an armed conflict does not override the duty of a State to fulfill its obligations “embodied in the treaty to which it would be subject under international law independently of that treaty.” Parties to the conflict and neutral powers are therefore bound during an armed conflict at sea by the provisions of the maritime conventions that reflect customary international law.

https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1720&context=ils

[Tomconroy]

5. Don't think the US has anything close by. The Russians will save

The crews. Maybe the Ivan's can save the ship and tow it or maybe it goes under.
Fuck Putin.

[taxi]

7. The two things coming to mind are

It would be any ship or craft within range, without regard to their country of origin or allegiance, racing to the scene and that could include US ships. It's a rescue, not a fight. It would be major news.
The second parallels the second tweet in the OP - if the ship was afloat other Russian forces would sink it. Again, all over the international news.

[COL Mustard]

8. Any naval vessel in the vicinity would assist, if possible, in rescuing the crew

It's the law of the sea and what you do. There were stories of US ships attempting to rescue Japanese sailors during WW2, but the Japanese refused rescue, sometimes by gunfire.

[taxi]

9. Now there's one hell of a thank you, shooting at rescuers!

[COL Mustard]

28. They really didn't want to be captured

It was a mark of shame for them. I've seen videos where our sailors were shot at and returned the favor. Tough times.

[taxi]

44. Tough times and hard choices.

Andrew Olivier© – may be reproduced with acknowledgement

The army general is disemboweling all the monks. His reputation spread far and wide as a cruel cruel man. He comes into this village and he says to his adjutant. Tell me what’s happening and the adjutant replies, “All the people are frightened of you and they are bowing down. All the monks in the monastery have fled to the hills but for one monk.”

He was outraged at this one monk. He gets up and goes to the monastery and pushes open the doors. As he walks into the courtyard there’s the monk standing in the middle of the courtyard. He walks up to him and he says, “Don’t you know who I am? I could run my sword through your belly without blinking an eye.”

“And don’t you know who I am? I could have your sword go through my belly without blinking an eye.”

The general bowed deeply and left the monk in peace
https://www.andrew-oliviers-blog.com/2018/06/13/the-monk-and-the-general-a-journey-into-the-mystic/

[wnylib]

29. So what kind of aid would the US be obligated

to give under the circumstances?

Could we toss them some paper towels?

[taxi]

39. It would be up to the Commanding Officer of a ship to determine if they could render assistance.

Those in the water are pretty much helpless. A bigger question may be is it any different to let them die or to make them die? The legacy of being in that position and not rendering assistance has many considerations. Rendering assistance may interfere with the ships mission, put the ship at risk, or endanger the crew. OTOH the Captain may choose to personify Captain Ahab -

Ahab refuses to help the captain of the Rachel, whose name is Captain Gardiner, because he doesn’t want to lose any time in hunting Moby Dick.
He goes back into his cabin.
Captain Gardiner returns silently to his ship.
The men on the Pequod can see the Rachel moving slowly back and forth along the water in the distance, searching for the missing boat.

https://www.shmoop.com/study-guides/literature/moby-dick/summary/chapter-128-the-pequod-meets-the-rachel

Paper towels are a NO NO NO, a thousand times.

[Jack from Charlotte]

53. About 70 days before WWII's end a Russian sub sank a German ocean liner killing 9,000....

mostly civilians, fleeing the advancing Russian army in Prussia. The Wilhelm Gustloff sinking is the greatest maritime disaster in history. No Russian ship aided in the rescue.
There were about 1,200 survivors.

2,000,000 civilians and soldiers had been successfully evacuated to the west from Prussia.

Just a little history re wartime ship sinkings.

[taxi]

58. Wow, they estimate 10,000 people on board!

Bookmarking The Smithsonian Magazine (Jan 29, 2020) story for later reading.
On the subject of naval disasters, this one will interest you. Watching Oak Island and noticing someone making an apparent a freudian slip led to this interesting bit of naval history. Both are short reads and reveal why the French are not mentioned on Oak Island. (Oak Island is there at Birch Cove)

This is from the Halifax Military Heritage Preservation Society.

The fleet consisted of ten ships of the line, seven frigates and sloops, two fire
ships, 19 transports, 14 store ships, 11 merchantmen and one hospital ship. On board were 3,500 infantry marines and artillery gunners, as well as 7,300 sailors, which consisted of officers, petty officers and seamen (many of whom were conscripted)—in all about 11,000 men and 25,000 tons of shipping. Nearly six months later, only a few ships and men from this great armada straggled home to French ports. In the words of Nova Scotia author Thomas H. Raddall, “The story of this great armada is one of the most tragic in the history of America.
snip...
After more storms and additional deaths, a few ships finally made French ports in December. In all, perhaps as many as 8,000 men sailors, soldiers and seamen died without ever having faced the enemy in battle. In their haste to put such a monumental failure behind them, French naval authorities quickly buried the memory and the records of it, attributing the catastrophe to a series of unfortunate events. It was as if the expedition, one of the worst naval disasters in history, had never occurred.

https://hmhps.ca/pdf/HMHPS-historical-paper-no-5.pdf also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duc_d%27Anville_expedition

The expedition was a complete failure. It was beset by bad weather and took three months to cross the Atlantic Ocean. Many in the ships' crews and the troops being transported fell ill before the expedition finally reached Chebucto Bay (present-day Halifax Harbour), and d'Anville died not long after its arrival. His successors in command attempted to mount an assault on Annapolis Royal, but eventually gave up and returned to France.

[COL Mustard]

71. A captain can't hazard his vessel

Under these circumstances it would be very difficult for a warship commander to render assistance because the Russians aren't following the laws of warfare. As I understand it (remember, I was in the Army not the Navy) there are provisions for warships to cease hostile actions to rescue sailors. But it depends on all parties playing by the rules.

[taxi]

73. It is a difficult decision under any circumstances.

There are things to consider. It does no good to risk ones own ship or crew.

being in that position and not rendering assistance has many considerations. Rendering assistance may interfere with the ships mission, put the ship at risk, or endanger the crew.

[gaskinite]

42. I see what you did there

Clever indeed.

I liked the pic of the Ukrainian tractor going to get the burning boat.

[backscatter712]

48. I'm not sure any rescue attempts would have done much good.

Apparently, after getting slugged by those two Neptunes, Moskva suffered an ammuntion explosion (a magazine cooked off?), then rolled on its side.

That looks to me like a lot of the crew didn't make it off.

[taxi]

54. Yea, that's possible. Another angle is they blew it up themselves upon losing a critical system or 2

The Russians are brutal. It is unlikely that they would leave the ship afloat, and if the damages were severe enough to prevent the crew from sinking her then they would have to target her. Even if it were only dead in the water the resources to protect and retrieve it would be too costly, it would have to be sunk. It may be that the missile strikes crippled her and a special team had orders to finish it off. Had there been an organized abandon ship distress signals would have gone out early and life rafts would have been deployed, but it doesn't look like that. I think the brutal bastards acted like brutal bastards and sacrificed nearly everyone.

[Lithos]

51. There were not 500 sailors in the sea

Given the damage, it would likely be a fraction - maybe 75 to 100. Unfortunately the temperature of the waters are around 9-10 degrees Celsius. Without proper thermal protection, this puts the survival window between 1-3 hours. I doubt any ship would have been able to reach the vicinity in that time, let alone rescue more than a handful in the rough waters even if they were present.

This has to be a near total loss of life.

L-

[taxi]

59. Agree, this has to be a near total loss of life, in any scenario.

Never give up the ship. Never give up the ship.
They were not going to give up the ship no matter what. No matter how.

[Lithos]

61. Seeing reports where a Turkish ship was close enough to save 54

And some other ships a few more.

As much as I despise Putin and the brigands and thugs which have risen up in his shadow, I can not judge everyone with the same pen.

L-

[wryter2000]

78. Didn't they evacuate the crew already?

I think they took them off the ship the day it was hit.

This is wonderful news! Putin must be apoplectic.

[taxi]

81. That's what they were saying. Confirmation of sinking came after the pentagon press release today

John Kirby said exactly the information as we expected, no confirmation of anything but there were indications that it was under tow, no photos, no confirmation of any material conditions. Aside from that the winds have been from the north, and deeper waters are south of Romania-to-Sebastopol, making a better option for a scuttle. It would also allow time to take care of whatever equipment problems could arise from the ship being abandoned. It could be that the evacuated were casualties. I guess we'll never know.

[Lovie777]

4. Russians won't give any true actual depiction of what really happened.....

they are already lying about what happened but can't deny that the ship is fucked up and probably many died.

[OilemFirchen]

6. Russian warship fucked itself.

[electric_blue68]

22. Ouch - that's some clever contemporary gallows humour!

[relayerbob]

25. Nailed it. Literally

[Nevilledog]

50. Zelensky might be psychic

Link to tweet

[Lithos]

60. That is going to be one of the greatest questions coming out of this

Given how much coordination was involved in the attack and that it seems to have been planned when there was "bad weather"....

I choose to think it was not a coincidence. Maybe time will let us know sooner than later.

L-

[joe_stampingbull]

10. they abandon ship when it is about to sink

Good job Uktainians!

[Tomconroy]

11. Yup.

[COL Mustard]

30. Interesting that Moskva (ex. Slava)

Was built in Mikolayev, Ukraine.

[TheBlackAdder]

56. And the Neptun Missile was based on a Russian Kh-35U

.

The RK-360MC Neptun (Neptune) is a Ukrainian anti-ship missile system. It was developed by Luch design bureau. It uses R-360 anti-ship cruise missile. It is a Ukrainian version of the Russian Kh-35U. The Ukrainian missile is generally similar to the Kh-35U, but has a longer body with more fuel, larger booster, and some other modifications. This missile was first announced in 2013. First examples were reportedly completed and tested in 2016. At the time this missile reportedly lacked guidance system. This missile has a range of up to 280 km. It could be carried and launched from naval, land and air platforms. Development of the Neptun land-based anti-ship missile system was completed in 2019. Ukrainian military trials were completed in 2020. In 2021 a pre-production system was delivered to Ukrainian military for testing. In 2021 Ukrainian MoD funded production of a batch of Neptun coastal defense systems. It was planned that a batch of 18-19 launcher vehicles will be delivered in 2022. Ukrainian military plans to obtain a total of 54 to 90 Neptun launcher vehicles with missiles.

-
-

There is a very interesting thing about this missile. An exact copy of the Neptun was first observed in 2014, in North Korea. It is locally known as Kumsong 3 (Venus 3). Initially it was thought that North Koreans acquired the Russian Kh-35E, or Kh-35UE missiles. However after close examination it appeared that it is not a Russian missile, but is extremely similar to the Ukrainian Neptun. It made its first apparent test launch in 2015 and reportedly demonstrated a range of 200 km. In 2017, during another test launch, the Kumsong 3 demonstrated a range of 240 km. It is unclear how a missile, that was under development in Ukraine, was tested in North Korea even before its test in Ukraine. There is still some missing link in this whole story, how this North Korean missile was developed. One of the explanations could be that Ukraine contributed development of the North Korean Kumsong 3 anti-ship missile. Ukraine is actually among Top 10 military producers of the world and has a far more developed weapons industry than North Korea. Also Ukraine supplied engines for North Korean ballistic missiles via Russia before. This fact was confirmed by Ukrainian space agency and South Korean intelligence.

In terms of performance the Neptun is generally similar to the Russian Kh-35U. It has a planned range of up to 280 km. In 2019 this missile demonstrated a range of over 250 km for the first time. It carries a High Explosive Fragmentation (HE-FRAG) warhead, which weights around 145 kg. This missile should be efficient against vessels with a displacement of up to 5 000 t, such as frigates and smaller destroyers.

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https://www.military-today.com/missiles/neptun.htm

.

[NickB79]

12. That farmer meme had me rolling 🤣

[irisblue]

18. We all need a smirk.

Link to tweet

[irisblue]

26. The ships wiki page was not locked fast enough

Link to tweet

[2naSalit]

21. That was great!

[bluecollar2]

13. Hasta la vista pendejo....

Now it's time to go after the rest of their fleet.

Lots of attention being placed on the surface and air wars, and rightfully so...but the russian navy is controlling the southern flank.

Go after her navy and she'll be unable to control and she'll have to divert resources. She won't be able to project.

[blue-wave]

14. Yes, this!!! +1000

We need to see lots of Russian warships swimming with the fishes!!!

Slava Ukraini!!!

[Warpy]

15. The only part I totally disbelieve is that the crew was completely evacuated

because earlier reports said no other ships were close enough.

My guess is that there will be a long casualty list.

[Tomconroy]

20. They abandon a ship if it's likely to sink.

[Amishman]

27. nighttime rescue from a sinking ship in a storm is already insanely hard

add in that the ship just ate two large missiles and is on fire, and I find it hard to believe that a rescue could even be possible.

[wnylib]

32. Was there a storm at the time?

[Warpy]

41. No, they'd abandon ship and land in the water

and that water is still pretty damned cold in April, even for those who had time to put survival gear on, if they even have survival gear.

(Thinking about what they have for workers on oil rigs off Canada and New England)

[COL Mustard]

72. Well, the fire would have made it easier to see....

I'm just sayin'!

[Chicago1980]

37. Probably not completely, but in that Twitter post,

You see another ship nearby.

[paleotn]

46. Your guess would be right....

More than likely she was struck by one or multiple anti-ship missiles. There's been reports the Brits have given Ukraine Harpoon missiles. That probably caused secondary explosions as munitions cooked off. Nothing like that happens without mass and rather gruesome casualties. Some in lower compartments may have gone down with her. Sea warfare is a bloody business.

[backscatter712]

49. Apparently, the missiles were Neptunes, one of Ukraine's own designs.

The Neptune's supposed to be similar to the Harpoon. That would make them rather powerful weapons.

[Warpy]

55. That is what reports have said

I read a little about them, mostly analysts downplaying them, "Ukraine building their own advanced land-sea cruise missiles? How good could they possibly be?"

Rather excellent, it turns out.

[paleotn]

77. Yep. Read that this morning. Homegrown Ukrainian system.

Works pretty well too.

[ToxMarz]

16. Maybe there are "civilized' rules of engagement (although Russia doesn't abide by them)

But if the thing hasn't sunk yet, I'm of a mind they should hit it again while it's sitting there.

[herding cats]

17. This is amazing!

Rob Lee is 100% reliable. You can take this to the bank people.

[2naSalit]

19. Found in comment of first link...

Said it rolled and sank.

[Igel]

23. Crap.

Nearly choked to death coughing from laughing too much.

So, the Ukrainian DOD should coordinate with the Ukrainian Dept. of Agriculture on military strategy?



As an aside, and on edit ... I've seen Zelenskiy abbreviated "Z". The forces dedicated to Kyiv were marked "Z". Thoughts?

[HighFired49]

33. Sounds reasonable

As in "Z, we're coming' for ya."? I thought early on that "Z" might be pronounced "Xi", but your idea makes better sense.

[wnylib]

35. I don't know, but maybe Ukraine supporters

could take back the Z from Russians and use it in blue and yellow, with the full Zelenskyy name spelled out in lower case letters after the capital Z.

[UTUSN]

24. HUZZAH HUZZAH HUZZAH!

[relayerbob]

31. Good news! Major loss and ironic ...

The Moskva (Moscow) has been sunk

[honest.abe]

34. FU Putin!!

[fierywoman]

36. Thank you , Goddess, and : FUCK YOU, PUTIN !!!

[BradBo]

38. The Doomsday Clock moves a bit closer to 12.

[ancianita]

40. Ukraine has a navy headquartered in Odessa, so it's entirely possible that Russia's lying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Navy

Its navy's got 6,500 personnel, 1 corvette, 4 landing craft, 1 minesweeper, 13 patrol boats, assorted auxiliary boats and aircraft.

[orangecrush]

43. Bullseye. nt

[AdamGG]

45. The Russian sailors all evacuated...

No doubt.

[herding cats]

57. Ha! Fair enough.

Don't expect a report on survivors and any mention of dead/missing soldiers will be only of the few who wash up on shore. The rest have been transcended into what might be, or could possibly be believable.

[sprinkleeninow]

47. Asta la pasta, moskva babee!

[Vogon_Glory]

62. Oh, the irony! Built by Ukrainians, sunk by Ukrainians

The Moskva (ex-Slava) was built in a Ukrainian shipyard back when Ukraine was part of the USSR.

[angue]

63. No Mainstream outlet confirming

Only tweets the ship definitely sank. The cause is unknown.

[muriel_volestrangler]

64. ...

Link to tweet

[Emile]

65. Is this the same ship Ukrainians were giving them the finger? God I hope so!

LOL

[Tomconroy]

66. Yup.

[Emile]

67. Bwhaha +1

[wryter2000]

79. That makes me so happy

[Tomconroy]

68. The Russians are claiming the ship survived and is being towed.

Even that means it's inoperable. Unlikely there will be sufficient repair facilities in crimea.

[SoonerPride]

70. Satellite images will soon tell us the truth

I bet it is either sunk or will have to completely scrapped.

[calimary]

69. Sink the rest of 'em!

[sop]

74. Nicolle Wallace is reporting just now "Russian official says its missile cruiser has sunk."

[Tomconroy]

75. Ha!

Thank you!

[AllyCat]

76. BBC too. It sank under tow. Will Putin blame the tow boats?

That ship caused a massive amount of death and destruction. Good riddance to them all.

[VGNonly]

80. Sank?

A fire...towed...possible missile attack...stormy weather...?

[link:

|

[Vogon_Glory]

82. Like the stereotypical bad novel starts: "it was a dark and stormy night..

Suddenly there were a couple of lights coursing across the tops of the waves!

…You get the picture.

[Efilroft Sul]

83. I hope every last fucking sailor was burned to death or drowned. No mercy for bastard Russians.

[Tomconroy]

84. You know, we've basically heard nothing from Russia

about survivors. Not a word.

[Efilroft Sul]

85. I hope Russia chokes on the sailors' deaths.