2,200 Ukrainians will be punished as deserters

[TomWilm]

Ukrainian men aged 18 to 60 can be punished for "illegal crossing of the state border", as the country has imposed a state of emergency and detains all armed men in the country. Here in the beginning of April, this has so far affected 2,200 men who tried to leave the country, says the Ukraine's border control. Several have died during escape attempts in the often rugged terrain of the border regions.

The legal status of the deserters is uncertain, as the concrete legislation is only now being implemented with retroactive effect from the outbreak of war, so that it can also can affect those who have already left, if they return. The penalty for desertion goes from fines of up to 40,000 kroner, to imprisonment from 3 to 5 years.

Soldiers and public officials can face up to 10 years in prison, and by repetition, the prison sentence is drastically increased. Single fathers can be exempted, and the same applies if there are three children in the family. These criteria are already strictly enforced. A man was thus apprehended at the border with his only two children, and a false death certificate for the wife.

While many rejoice over brave Russian demonstrations against war, Ukrainian war opponents are hung out as traitors. Regardless of whether there is a war going on, it is shameful to punish citizens who do not want to kill. Ukraine has never made it easy for military conscientious objectors, and this latest coercive measure should be condemned - just as it has been against the similar practices of the regimes in the breakaway republics of Donetsk and Lugansk.

Fleeing women and children from Ukraine have been met with great sympathy, but this must be extended to everyone fleeing war - including Ukrainian men. The European Court of Human Rights has recognized, that conscientious objection to military service is protected by the Convention on Human Rights.

[JohnSJ]

1. What is the source of this? Link?

[TomWilm]

6. Link is all those underlined words in the text :)

[JohnSJ]

14. Thanks

[SmallFry]

2. I'm sure the true number is much higher.

Don’t blame them though I’m not opposed to minimal action being taken against them down the road. No matter how this ends it’s not going to be good and the Z man is going to be so awash in money and resources he is going to need every able body to begin reconstruction. Good time for contentious objectors, or those unwilling to pick up arms for other reasons, to make good by their country.

[speak easy]

3. "Ukrainian war opponents are hung out as traitors"

1. The link is from 2020
2. Suggest you change the wording - Ukraine abolished capital punishment in 2000.

[BlackSkimmer]

4. What is this source? Conflating draft dodging with deserting?

Detaining all “armed men in the country”? The wording is odd, “hung out” as traitors?

Is that intentional?

[TomWilm]

7. Nope. I am not a native English speaker!

[wnylib]

12. And your native language is?

[TomWilm]

17. 🤦

[wnylib]

21. Sign language?

[BlackSkimmer]

31. Emoji?

[TomWilm]

36. I mean what the f*ck could my answer to that do for you ...

... feels like you are implying something sinister, which I am all too used to by now. Everybody here were much nicer and more open at my first run here many years ago. Seems like a lot of instant FB hostility has been invading this space...

[Emrys]

39. I guess it might give some insight into what you posted as an OP and why.

DU has members from all over the world, though predominantly from the USA. We each bring our own perspectives to the mix.

For instance, if I had posted this OP, it would arguably be relevant if I were actually Ukrainian, and therefore directly affected by the subject matter. It might also be relevant if I was from a different country that has imposed compulsory conscription on its population.

It might also be relevant if I was living in comfort in a country that faces no immediate existential threat to its very existence and where conscription is all but unthinkable. I think that might colour my views in some ways.

I've no idea why you made this ultra-defensive reaction in response to a reasonable question, nor what your reference to "my first run here many years ago" might mean and how it could possibly add to your current argument.

[TomWilm]

40. Because such a question normally are followed by accusation of being Russian ...

... as if that in itself should be a bad thing. I am not, but have been traveling a lot, and thereby met friends coming from both Ukraine and Russia. I am still now in contact with some, hearing about their struggles. They are of course themselves in opposition to the war. I myself is a conscientious objector.

And here are some nice Ukrainian music:

Id you really need to know more, just dive into my posting history here from the last decades .

[Budi]

5. Here are the Exceptions Listed in your article: Also the link to he Article from THE CONVERSATION"

Here's the Link to this Source you posted: auto-translates to English
https://2day-kh-ua.translate.goog/ua/kharkow/cholovikiv-yaki-vyyikhaly-za-kordon-zatrymuvatymut-pid-chas-vyizdu-do-ukrayiny-dlya?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

Exceptions are:

*men who have a certificate of deferment of conscription and notification of enrollment in special military registration;

*men who have an opinion of the military medical commission on unfitness with exclusion from military registration;

*men with three or more children under the age of 18;

*men who raise a child (children) under the age of 18 on their own;

*men dependent on a child with a disability under the age of 18 or an adult child with a disability of the first or second group before the age of 23;

adoptive parents, guardians, foster parents, foster parents, who are dependent on orphans or children deprived of parental care, up to 18 years;

*engaged in constant care for persons in need, in the absence of other persons who can provide such care;

*men who have left for other countries for permanent residence, which is documented;
recipients of professional higher and higher education, trainee assistants, post-graduate students and doctoral students studying abroad in full-time or dual forms of education (students, listeners);

*conscripts or certain categories of citizens - drivers who are booked for international cargo transportation, transportation for the needs of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, medical cargo and humanitarian aid cargo; people with disabilities and their companions.
********

*** THIS PARTICULAR ARTICLE IS FROM "THE CONVERSATION"
https://theconversation.com/why-banning-men-from-leaving-ukraine-violates-their-human-rights-178411

THE CONVERSATION ARTICLE OMITTED THESE EXCEPTIONS LISTED ABOVE

[TomWilm]

8. ... I quoted myself some of the possible exceptions ...

... and linked to the official Ukrainian sources for the rest. So I do not really care what another ones of my many sources has omitted or not!

Neither do I care about any list om exceptions at all. It is a human right to leave your country, whether there is a war on or not.

[Budi]

15. And you are entitled to believe what you do.

Just provided links & info for clarity.

[The Magistrate]

24. Actually During Time Of War It Is Not, Sir

Conscription is lawful, and evading it is a crime.

Full stop.

Do not mistake what you approve or disapprove for the law.

I approve of a Russian seeking to evade service, even desert. I recognize that, despite my approval of the action, it is a crime under Russian law, and that Russian law in this is no offense against international humanitarian law.

I have some sympathy with anyone who wishes to avoid deadly peril. That doesn't mean I deny Ukraine has the right to conscript soldiers, and enforce their laws on the matter.

Nor does fear of deadly peril constitute conscientious opposition to war, any more than does thinking a particular war stupid, futile, and ill-advised. If you imagine even a great proportion of men fleeing Ukraine at this time are conscientious objectors to war itself, then you are excused from serious discussions of matters martial and political.

[stopdiggin]

29. +1. a mistake to confuse 'sympathize', with legal or protected -(nt)-

[stopdiggin]

30. Ahem ...

from your own link:

"The right is not absolute in so far as Article 12(3) permits restrictions provided by law which are necessary to protect national security, public order, public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others and are consistent with the other rights recognised in the Covenant."

[TomWilm]

37. Yes, your right not to serve as a soldier, is not a right not to serve in a civil function, BUT ...

... ALL the men in Ukraine are not soldiers (though they obviously are regarded as such by their government now). And therefore NOT restricted by the words you quote. Only for the actual soldiers are the rules different.

[stopdiggin]

38. you made a claim about an absolute

(inviolable?) right to enter and exit the country. That seriously overstates the case, as that 'right' also has some common sense limitations. And the situation in Ukraine is an excellent example of a place for 'rational' limitations.

You would be better off just arguing for reasonable provisions made for sincere cases of conscientious objection.

[TomWilm]

41. I hope none of us will be denied the right to flee a war zone ...

... while the world is dismissing it as technicalities. UNHCR does not consider Ukraine a “safe country of origin”, and calls for other States to suspend forcible return of nationals and former habitual residents of Ukraine, including
those who have had their asylum claims rejected.

[JohnSJ]

10. Thanks Budi. During Viet Nam when there was a draft, a valid CO would would be able to serve in a

non-combat position, medic, etc

[Budi]

16. That's true, thanks for the reminder

[TomWilm]

19. It is very difficult to get status as a Conscientious Objector in Ukraine ...

... only very specific religious groups can achieve this.

[speak easy]

9. ULIE: Civilians are not deserters.

The proposed legislation does not call civilians 'deserters'.

[TomWilm]

18. What do you then call people who flee from military services?

Al adult males seem to be considered soldiers, unless they have a permission not be:

All male immigrants, aged 18 to 60, are required to register for military service within 48 hours. Such an order was issued by the Lviv Regional Military Administration.

This was announced today, March 2, by the head of the Lviv Regional Military Administration Maksym Kozytskyi. According to him, all men who came to Lviv region must join the defense of Ukraine.

[speak easy]

20. Draft dodgers at worst.

You used the word deserters ... it betrays you.

[TomWilm]

22. That was also a quite weird accusation ...

[wnylib]

23. Registration is just a list of potentially eligible soldiers.

They are not soldiers until officially inducted into an army or other military service. And they do not become soldiers if they meet the criteria for exemption and decide not to waive the exemption.

But I think you already knew that.

A deserter is a conscripted or voluntarily enlisted person, already inducted into military service, deployed or awaiting assignment, who leaves without permission.

People who leave the country or falsify information about themselves before they are inducted into service are evading conscription. They are draft dodgers, not deserters.

If you are opposed to involuntary conscription, why do you refer to draft dodgers with the negative term of "deserter" which does not fit them?

[TomWilm]

25. Point taken! Lets call them draft dodgers.

[wnylib]

27. Or, let's just call the OP not factual enough to bother with.

Bye.

[TomWilm]

28. Well, some of us still like to human rights ...

Closing borders for civil citizens should be left to the old Eastern Bloc or Russia.

But do close year eyes and walk away.
Or explain here why Ukraine's closed border for all able bodied men is not factual. And very wrong.

[BlackSkimmer]

35. Thank you. nt

[BlackSkimmer]

32. Deserters are those already in the military.

Desertion has always been considered a worse crime than evading the draft.

[Evolve Dammit]

11. Thank you for this thought-provoking post. A huge aspect that doesn't get enough attention.

[wnylib]

13. Thought provoking, indeed, e.g.

Why the inaccuracies in the OP?

[Emile]

26. I remember in my youth when you could be punished here

for avoiding the draft.

[Oneironaut]

33. Ukraine seems kind of bad too in some respects.

I’m referring to the government, not the people. They’re the lesser of the two evils, but they still need to win this conflict. They’re also very good at propaganda, which has been helping them tremendously.

I’m a bit concerned about what their government is going to do after the war is over. I’m also concerned about giving the Azov battalion too much power.

Basically, I would not trust Zelensky. Putin makes him look like an angel, but, I would not trust him.

[The Magistrate]

34. The 'Azov' Is Dying In Mariupol, Ma'am

Not much of a factor going forward....

[TomWilm]

42. I actually see Zelinsky as a good man but in way too deep water ...

... and therefore giving out drastic and damaging orders, of which some will taint his reputation later. This month he has suspended political parties in the parliament, who were sitting on about 20% of the votes, and are curtailing labour rights. Trade unions say it’s an excuse for deregulation. Last year Zelensky illegally took the power away from the Constitutional Court by firing their judges.

It is not a democratic lighthouse, which is why the European Union until now has postponed a membership. The corruption is as big as in Russia, but though their democracy is broken, it is way better than Putin's much worse example.