So, I'm seeing OPs here already about replacing older leaders

[MineralMan]

in 2024. Notably California Senator Dianne Feinstein and President Biden. I guess we're starting on the 2024 election already. Notable in those OPs is reference to those office-holders' ages. Isn't that interesting?

Ageism raises its ugly head once again, and we start talking about putting our senior politicians out to pasture quite some time before their current terms in office are over.

I would remind those already thinking about throwing elected officials out due to their age in 2024 that we have an election this year, in 2022. Perhaps we would be better served by discussing offices that are up for election in just a few short months before we go off on the oldsters who won't be running until 2024. Perhaps.

In the end, though, only those voting in the states represented by Senators and House members get to choose who represents them. For everyone else, such decisions are none of their business, to be quite frank.

[PoliticAverse]

1. Do you really not know how the Senate and House work?

Did you really think that the elections of Jon Ossoff and Raphael Warnock were not any of the "business" of anyone not in Georgia?

Were DUers not in Georgia that donated to their campaigns wrong to do so?

[mahina]

3. Yeah, that's probably it

🙄

Anyway, in the remaining 7 months we have to turn out the vote in Nov 2022, what’s motivating people in your area?

[MineralMan]

5. Actually, I know very well how they work.

I donated to the campaigns of both of those people.

As far as I know, though, Senator Feinstein is not running for reelection to her Senate seat until 2024. So, I'm not concerning myself about that this year. I do not assume that she will run again. Meanwhile, I watched her at the confirmation hearing for Justice Jackson. She seemed just fine to me at that time. Still, I have nothing to say regarding whether she runs again or not. If she does and wins her primary, then I will be supporting her again for re-election. I assume that all of us here will be doing that.

I support Democratic candidates wherever they are. If I can, I will donate to their campaigns. However, it remains the choice of the voters in each state to decide who represents them. Nobody else.

[PoliticAverse]

8. "I will donate to their campaigns." So apparently such decisions are your business after all. n/t

[BlackSkimmer]

155. Supporting Dems is what a lot of us do.

I donate to Dems in other districts, states, etc.

Not really a thing to snark about, is it?

[PoliticAverse]

156. You should direct that to the person trying to convince us other races are "none of our business".

[BlackSkimmer]

158. I think I see what he's saying a bit differently.

Nothing wrong with that.

At any rate, I’m one of those thinking Feinstein should enjoy a well served retirement. But, again, I recognize it’s none of my business.

[TeamProg]

136. I've been watching her since she was mayor of SF. To me, she looked lost at the KBJ hearings.

I'm no youngster. I remember the Dan White Twinkie defense and separately, the Jonestown Massacre killings.

[TeamProg]

133. Exactly, local voters make their decisions but Big $$$ influences those decisions. n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

2. Feinstein will be 91 in 2024; she should've stood down in 2018.

We don't need a Democratic version of late-career Strom Thurmond, who didn't know where he was and got wheeled into the senate chamber to vote the way his aides told him to.

[MineralMan]

7. So, how has Senator Feinstein voted in matters that have come up

in the Senate for a vote? I know the answer. Do you?

[Spider Jerusalem]

9. That's a relevant question, how?

Answer: "not that much different to how another Democrat in the same seat would've voted".

[MineralMan]

16. Sounds like she's doing a good job, then, eh?

I mean in representing her constituency. So, why the push to replace her?

[Spider Jerusalem]

21. You're not one of her constitutents (I am; I live in California); why do YOU care?

[Scrivener7]

50. Oh, snap!

[Sympthsical]

56. You just admonished someone for not being a California voter

And now you're offering your take . . . to California voters.

Seriously. It was one thread ago.

[MineralMan]

62. I was a California voter for over 50 years.

I voted for Dianne Feinstein several times as a California voter.

I can't vote for her any longer. I have two Senators in my own state to vote for.

I made my status quite clear.

[Sympthsical]

67. You're not now

So, according to the advice you're giving . . .

Hmmm.

[MineralMan]

69. My advice is that California voters will decide.

Not me. Not anyone else. I've said that quite clearly.

It's also up to Dianne Feinstein whether or not to run again. Not up to me. Not up to anyone, really, but her.

[Sympthsical]

73. I'm a California voter

And I think she should retire.

And I think painting well-founded concerns about fitness as "Ageism" is intentionally ill-intentioned.

There's a word for that activity on the internet.

[MineralMan]

84. Send her a letter to that effect, then.

You're a constituent.

[TeamProg]

138. +1

[Spider Jerusalem]

74. Speaking as a California voter, she needs to retire now

it isn't only up to her, unless you think that elected representatives should serve their own interests and not those of their constituents (it's not in the interests of Californians to be represented by someone who is incapable of carrying out their duties).

[MineralMan]

85. Send her a letter as a constituent.

Or vote for a primary challenger.

[Spider Jerusalem]

87. Perhaps you should focus on Minnesota, eh? By your own criteria.

Lecturing to California voters after telling everyone else it's not their business unless they're California voters is...something.

[MineralMan]

90. Oh, I do. I have campaigned for both of our current Senators

and the previous one who left office early, as well.

[Spider Jerusalem]

92. Without anyone from California lecturing to you, I'm sure

[MineralMan]

96. Actually no.

A number of people took strong positions about Al Franken, including some California folks here and others from other states. I continued to support him strongly. However, I campaigned for the Senator who replaced him. I campaign for Democrats.

[True Blue American]

143. Tina Smith?

Good, but no Al Franken.

[MineralMan]

151. Al Franken was bumrushed out of office.

Tina Smith is not Al Franken, but she's OK.

I'm not going to get into why Franken felt he had to resign. Not today. We went through that at the time.

[BlackSkimmer]

157. Your parents lived in CA too, right?

If I remember correctly.

I keep up with many states’ politics. Just as you, and there’s not a thing wrong with that.

Jeez, there are people from OTHER countries here who are VERY interested in Texas and Florida.

Not sure why you’re getting so much grief on this.

[Scrivener7]

160. The OP says that politics in states other than your own are none of your business.

[Budi]

26. So you don't really know. Right?

And that is not true either, as for "not that much different to how another Democrat in the same seat would've voted".

As we've noted proof of just since Biden's been President.
Not all those with a D behind their name have supported his policies with their vote.

For instance, Biden's call for banning Ru Oil & Gas.
Just recently voted on in the House.

[Spider Jerusalem]

31. Feinstein is in the Senate, not the House, and "in the same seat" means "California"

so what Manchin or Sinema may have done isn't relevant, is it?

[TeamProg]

137. +1

[enough]

4. Can't agree that elections of state and federal legislators are not a serious legitimate concern

of people outside their specific constituencies.

[2naSalit]

6. Something I just posted...

In another thread headed by that article going around quoting an "un-named source".

And that's the thing.

I see this as a whisper campaign to push her out and I think it sucks. An anonymous source recalls a story about a moment when the Senator was in personal turmoil and uses that as an implication that such conditions exist over a long term and that she is constantly unable to do her job at all. Also trying to call into question votes she has cast recently, like for KBJ.

I suspect that the Senator is capable of making a decision to retire and will do so in due time.

A lot of stabbing in the back going on these days, I remain skeptical about this story, it's a little too smelly for me.

[MineralMan]

11. Yes. I noticed that article, as well.

Anonymous sources do not convince me of anything. They are too easily called on to voice their opinions, but will not lend their names for attribution. I'm always skeptical of stories that only refer to such "unnamed" sources. Always.

[2naSalit]

17. Both of us seem to be afflicted...

With that pesky critical thinking skill so many complain about.

[MineralMan]

100. That can be inconvenient at times, for sure.

[PoliticAverse]

19. Have you ever had to take the car keys away from an older relative?

The problem with mental decline is that it can prevent you from making the correct decisions concerning your mental decline.

> I suspect that the Senator is capable of making a decision to retire and will do so in due time.

Stories like this is how people close to someone nudge them to the right decision.

> call into question votes she has cast recently, like for KBJ.

Any Democrat holding a California senate senate would have voted for KBJ.

[delisen]

30. I've had to take the car keys away from younger relatives

Amazing how many younger people cause accidents and even injuries and deathS on highways.

[PoliticAverse]

39. Yes accident rates peak for younger drivers and older ones.

It should be noted there's a minimum age specified in the Constitution to hold national political office.

[Mr.Bill]

106. It's also worth noting

That the Constitution has no maximum age after which you cannot hold office. And many of the founding fathers were relatively young men. Benjamin Franklin was the exception.

[PoliticAverse]

113. Franklin was born in 1706, so he was 70 in 1776. n/t

[Mr.Bill]

119. Yes, I just watched Ken Burns' documentary about him.

He died in 1790. Good documentary, by the way.

[mahina]

10. Ed Case ran against our beloved Senator Akaka and got creamed

In 2006 when he made an ageist argument.

He didn’t have a chance but he didn’t know yet.

100% agree about wasting time debating 2024 races at this point. Time is precious and short, 2024 wanderings are a costly distraction at this point. Time is one of our most precious assets and our most finite.

[MineralMan]

12. Yes. We must gain seats in 2022, not lose them.

We need desperately to focus on the upcoming election, rather than the 2024 one.

[Spider Jerusalem]

80. If you think there's a chance of losing a Senate seat in California...

you may want to go see a neurologist, because you've probably had a pretty severe brain injury.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

86. If we lose a Senate seat in California, we are absolutely fucked.

Like, it's game over, fucked. Like, there is no use trying anymore, fucked.

[MineralMan]

88. That seems highly unlikely.

[Jm7603]

13. Ability to function and positions on issues

are the only concerns. Age is relative to the individual. All Democrats in all jurisdictions local and federal can help or hurt our causes.

[MineralMan]

20. So, why do those threads so prominently feature age?

Hmm...

[Jm7603]

147. Forgot one word: "should" be the only concerns!

[OneBlueDotS-Carolina]

14. When we in South Carolina rid ourselves of

Lindsey & Tim Scott, then I'll be in a position to comment on other Dem senators.

If per chance DiFi resigned today, has anyone thought thru this exercise?

[PoliticAverse]

47. The Governor of California would appoint a replacement if Feinstein resigned...

Just like he did with Kamala Harris...
https://calcoastnews.com/2020/12/gov-gavin-newsom-selects-new-senator-and-secretary-of-state/

[OneBlueDotS-Carolina]

94. I think most are aware of that...

& while Newsome researches for a candidate. the senate is 50/50.

[Disaffected]

15. Politics transcends boundaries

as it may directly affect others in many instances, this being one IMO.

To wit, is it also not a lot of the entire world's business who is elected US President, or Russian President for example.

As well, IMO comments herein about fitness for office have nothing to do with her age, rather it has to do with her fitness for office.

[themaguffin]

18. 8fucking8. Don't call it ageism. ffs.

[MineralMan]

23. I call it as I see it, your obscene reference notwithstanding.

Yes, Senator Feinstein is 88 years old. That is her age. Did you watch her at Jackson's confirmation hearing? She did just fine there.

[themaguffin]

29. It's disingenuous on many levels to call it ageism.

[MineralMan]

32. So you have said. Twice now.

Please explain. When age is prominently mentioned in arguments for sending an elected official out to pasture, then age is one of the things being discussed.

[themaguffin]

37. I'll say it again and add that she's not competent enough & she's being selfish.

[NoRethugFriends]

22. there is a difference between ageism and recognizing dementia.

[MineralMan]

25. Once again, I ask if you watched her at Jackson's confirmation hearing.

She does not appear to be suffering from dementia to me. Besides, that is a medical diagnosis, and I am unqualified to make such a diagnosis. Perhaps you are qualified to do so?

[NoRethugFriends]

126. I am qualified to observe behavior

Hugging Lindsey Graham after the Amy conehead Barrett fiasco. Yeah that's the act of a person full of their faculties.

[MineralMan]

128. So, I take it that your answer is that you did not watch her in those hearings.

Thanks.

[NoRethugFriends]

152. As you very well know,

people with dementia can be clear sometimes. That doesn't mean they aren't suffering from dementia and should be sitting in important positions. Your recent hearings comment is a red herring.
BTW, this is not an ageist thing with me, I think I am about as old as you, and I know a lot about dementia, having dealt with it with my dad for many, many years.

[BannonsLiver]

24. She's confused and doesn't recognize colleagues

It’s not a lifetime appointment. Sorry.

[MineralMan]

27. California votes will decide that, I'm sure.

[BannonsLiver]

41. Maybe they will. Or not?

Perhaps in a moment of clarity she decides on her own that it’s time.

[MineralMan]

45. Well, as far as I know, she has made no decision about 2024.

Perhaps she's waiting to make a decision. I think I'll wait, too, and see what she decides.

[BannonsLiver]

66. And Jim inhofe was going the full 6 after getting a fresh term in 2020

Until he wasn’t.

[cksmithy]

102. There is a very lengthy

article about Dianne Feinstein in the San Francisco Chronicle today. As a California voter over 70, I know you can't always believe what you read. Who knows who the anonymous people are who say she is no longer competent. Some where in the article, it seems to suggest, she will make her mind up to retire or run again after the 2022 midterms. She is still fundraising for the party, which is good. I agree and think she is waiting for a very good reason before she makes the decision to retire.

[MineralMan]

105. That sounds very sensible of her.

[cksmithy]

112. Thank you

The SF Chronicle article was written by Tal Kopan and Joe Garofoli (political reporter?) not Tom Sykes.

[Budi]

34. Says who? An "unnamed staffer" & a DB scoop writer from the UK Royalist Correspondent

🙄
C'mon.

[BannonsLiver]

42. Says multiple sources over several years

Follow along please.

[Budi]

104. This issue came up today again because of an article scooped by unnamed sources by a writer ...

...hot on the trail of a suggestive piece much like those he scoops to his UK as a 'Royal Correspondent'.
He sounds like Piers Morgan.
The one that the Queen had fired for shit talking about her family.

So perhaps you need to follow along & see this hit for what it is.
Money & Media & Celebrity opportunists needing a scoop.

[delisen]

57. Tom Sykes wrote the article . He is a British gossip reporter on the Royal family

He specializes on gossip about Prince William having an affair, or Harry disliking his stepmom, or Kate’s sexy outfits.

He gets tips from royal familY fan as well as from some who travel in royal family circles. Are they true? Who knows?

We have proof that Sen Feinstein conducted herself very well at the Supreme Court hearings.
We have no proof of Tom Sykes statements in his article about Feinstein.

Why do you Tom Sykes’s statement as though they are proven true?

It seems to me it is like accepting Qanon drivel about pizzagate.

[BannonsLiver]

63. Oh FFS because he's the only one who ever wrote about it.

Righhht. If she was an R we’d be calling for her to step down.

[Spider Jerusalem]

127. He's reporting on something that first appeared in Feinstein's hometown newspaper.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/dianne-feinstein-senate-17079487.php

[Bayard]

28. I am reminded of Eric Swalwell's jab at Joe Biden in the presidential debates

"Pass the torch." It was not a good look for him.

[MineralMan]

35. Yes. I agree.

President Biden appears to be doing an excellent job, age notwithstanding.

[Duppers]

163. Indeed!

[orwell]

33. I live in California...

...I lived in San Francisco when Harvey Milk shot Mayor Moscone. I remember when she announced the mayor's death to a shocked city. It was one of those where were you when Kennedy was shot moments that no San Franciscan will forget.

Diane Feinstein was always a sharp, articulate, skilled politician in the best sense of the word.

I think it is time for her to resign. Even though California is deeply democratic I do not think it is too early to promote some of the bright lights we have to a senate seat worth not only keeping but infusing with new energy.

As someone who has followed Senator Feinstein for years, I think it is time for her to go. I was stunned when she ran for reelection this last time.

This isn't ageism. It is the reality of seeing the obvious decline in her skills.

Experience is not to be taken lightly. That is one of the reasons I have always backed Nancy Pelosi. But it is also important to admit your obvious shortcomings and let someone younger have a chance.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

40. What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Harvey Milk didn't shoot Mayor Moscone, Dan White did.
Both Milk and Moscone were assassinated by White.

[orwell]

77. Sorry...

...typing fast without coffee.

Showing my own age...

[MarineCombatEngineer]

81. Kinda figured it was something like that,

no worries, I sometimes have brain farts also.

Getting old sucks in some ways, but beneficial in other ways.

[reACTIONary]

139. Thanks... That stopped me from reading any further. nt

[PoliticAverse]

53. "when Harvey Milk shot Mayor Moscone." - don't take this the wrong way, but I think your memory

might be in decline.

[orwell]

79. See above response...

...my bad.

[KPN]

36. I would agree that age in itself is not a legitimate basis for deciding whether a candidate deserves

one's vote.

At the same time, one's age influences one's perspective on issues and abilities to perform a job. Those are legitimate considerations in my view.

ps -- my comments are not related to any specific office holder or candidate.

[Autumn]

38. It's a matter of one's fitness to hold office. To be quite frank a politicians mental health is

everybody's business. Ageism has nothing to do with the discussion.

[MineralMan]

43. Well, here's the thing. I watched her at the Jackson confirmation hearing.

She was doing just fine. So, I'm not inclined to question my observation, based on unnamed sources in an article written by a British journalist who specializes in the British royalty. See how that works? I observe a person in action, and what I have observed overrides anonymous sources and unverified opinions by someone who can't vote in any US election.

[Autumn]

83. Well, here's the thing. A lot of people with dementia have clear days and bad days.

You don't like articles about her fitness no one is forcing you to read them. You can observe whoever you want but keep in mind what other people observe is every bit as valid as your observations. Some even more so if they happen to have credentials or experience with dementia. .

[MineralMan]

120. See my reply to the post below.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

91. You could be observing a good day. Which is how dementia actually works.

[MineralMan]

118. I am intimately familiar with dementia.

My mother suffered from it for years before she died in 2021 as did my wife's mother. I observed the entire process in both cases. I'm not seeing similarities to Dianne Feinstein, frankly.

[Spider Jerusalem]

141. You can't compare 2 people you knew intimately to one you only see on television (n/t)

[MineralMan]

167. Really?

I disagree.

[Spider Jerusalem]

169. the Senate chamber is a highly structured environment

and one where she has notes prepared by her staff. Outside of structured environments? Not so great, apparently.

WASHINGTON — When a California Democrat in Congress recently engaged in an extended conversation with Sen. Dianne Feinstein, they prepared for a rigorous policy discussion like those they’d had with her many times over the last 15 years.

Instead, the lawmaker said, they had to reintroduce themselves to Feinstein multiple times during an interaction that lasted several hours.

Rather than delve into policy, Feinstein, 88, repeated the same small-talk questions, like asking the lawmaker what mattered to voters in their district, the member of Congress said, with no apparent recognition the two had already had a similar conversation.

The episode was so unnerving that the lawmaker — who spoke to The Chronicle on condition they not be identified because of the sensitivity of the topic — began raising concerns with colleagues to see if some kind of intervention to persuade Feinstein to retire was possible. Feinstein’s term runs through the end of 2024. The conversation occurred several weeks before the death of her husband in February.

“I have worked with her for a long time and long enough to know what she was like just a few years ago: always in command, always in charge, on top of the details, basically couldn’t resist a conversation where she was driving some bill or some idea. All of that is gone,” the lawmaker said. “She was an intellectual and political force not that long ago, and that’s why my encounter with her was so jarring. Because there was just no trace of that.”

https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/dianne-feinstein-senate-17079487.php

(The unnamed Democratic lawmaker is not that anonymous; it took me less than 3 minutes to figure out who it must be.)

[inthewind21]

162. I see

You seem to think you are the ONLY one who is "intimately" familiar. Then again, I see you often way up there on your high horse. So not really surprising from you.

[MineralMan]

166. Apparently you think insulting me somehow benefits you.

I think not.

[Spider Jerusalem]

116. And?

Last edited Thu Apr 14, 2022, 02:33 PM - Edit history (1)

You've seen Ronald Reagan's speech at the Berlin Wall in 1987, yes? Here's Lesley Stahl describing an encounter with him in 1986, almost a year earlier:

…Reagan didn’t seem to know who I was. He gave me a distant look with those milky eyes and shook my hand weakly. Oh, my, he’s gonzo, I thought. I have to go out on the lawn tonight and tell my countrymen that the president of the United States is a doddering space cadet. My heart began to hammer with the import…I was aware of the delicacy with which I would have to write my script. But I was quite sure of my diagnosis.

Stahl tried to fill the silence, telling Reagan that her daughter used to tell everyone that the president works for her mommy, but after Reagan took office, she started saying that her mother worked for the president.

I wasn’t above a little massaging. Was he so out of it that he couldn’t appreciate a sweet story that reflected well on him? Guess so. His pupils didn’t even dilate. Nothing. No reaction.

After Stahl mentioned that her husband, Aaron Latham, was a screenwriter, Reagan became animated, and pulled Latham to a couch to discuss a movie idea he had for a film in which he could star. Stahl recalls she was “too astonished to move.” A few minutes later, the session was over. Reagan was now beaming, and after Stahl and her family left the Oval Office, Reagan chased after them and told her daughter, “I worked for your mother, too.”

In her book, Stahl noted that she “had come that close to reporting that Reagan was senile. I had every intention of telling the American people what I had observed in the Oval Office.”

But she didn’t. This week, I asked her why not. In an email, she replied,

Because Reagan seemed to “recover”—I decided I could not go out on the White House lawn and tell the public what his behavior meant. So I never did a report.

I was obviously not equipped to interpret what LOOKED like a lapse into semi-awareness. Was it what I had assumed at first: senility? Was it an “act”—a way to avoid answering my questions? Was it some form of dementia (maybe not Alzheimer’s)? I decided I couldn’t report on my observations at all that night.

Stahl added,

Later, when I would ask White House officials if they had ever seen him float away like that, they’d say yes, but that, as with me, he always pulled himself together. It was confusing for everyone.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/reagan-alzheimers-family-feud-lesley-stahl/

[Tadpole Raisin]

153. I met a Jesuit priest years ago who was friends with a high ranking Canadian official.

When he visited her in Canada she told him a friend was coming to dinner. It was the now retired Pierre Trudeau.

After dinner they took a walk (I think Trudeau lived in the neighborhood) and the priest asked Trudeau if Reagan was mentally competent during their meetings.

Trudeau said Reagan did not know what he was doing but he was able to play the roll with help from staff and his wife. It was scary.

As is often the case with someone suffering from dementia, if you see them intermittently things may seem ok but see them 2 days in a row and you will have the same conversation you had yesterday.

At least during Reagan’s second term he was not competent to be president. So who ran the country?
Yikes!

[Scrivener7]

44. LOL! MORE topics that you deem to be none of our business.

And yeah. I remember when people here were all over me about my ageism when I said RBG should retire during Obama's term.

Because you're only as old as you feel, amiright?

[MineralMan]

49. And yet, here we are in a thread I started, discussing it.

So, I'm not "deeming" anything. I raised my point, and here you are joining the discussion I started.

[Scrivener7]

51. .

[Arazi]

46. We don't need placeholders. Can't afford placeholders

We need dynamic leaders now. Is she blocking the next Pete Buttigieg, Corey Booker, Lauren Underwood?

Ageism is a valid discussion, but we need Dem leaders still in the fight. Nancy Pelosi, Bernie Sanders, Joe Biden are still bringing the policies and driving change.

Dianne Feinstein is not

[lindysalsagal]

48. Some jobs are too difficult to handle even if you're not in your 90's.

I think the senate and POTUS are 2 of them. It's not ageism if those same people served honorably and continue to have our respect out of office. If you've got aging parents, you know they struggle with mundane household issues. It's just biology, not prejudice.

[delisen]

78. Stephen Hawkins had problems with housekeeping als as he aged & lost physical abilities.

No one (to my knowledge) suggested he stop doing theoretical physics, even though it is possible he may have lost some mental acuity as he aged.

An 80+ person who has no history in public office and decides to run anyway, may not do very well in office. That situation is very different from the situation of a person who has served with distinction for decades.

[usonian]

52. You're as old as you think.

So we need to turn over a little less than half the house and senate.

GOTV!

Daily (or more often) plug for my GOTV page.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216380145

And messaging!
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16589262
Summary:
Fraud
Fear
Fascism, and
"Every accusation is a confession."

Now go out and kick some GQP ass.
You might give the owner of said ass
A BIG HEADACHE

[Sympthsical]

54. No, it's about replacing leaders who may not be mentally sharp enough for the job

If someone was my age and showing neurological issues with attention and memory, I would question their fitness to represent my interests.

This is about health.

But since, "Ageist!" is a popular (and super lazy) refrain in certain quarters, it's used as a refuge as substitute for argument.

Unfortunately, health tends to deteriorate in old age. There are exceptions, yes, but the trend is undeniable. Once mental fitness erodes, then it may be time to enjoy the remaining years and let those more competent to take over.

(Nice job tying in President Biden on this board, when you know perfectly well the topic is Feinstein and years-long well-founded concerns about what is going on with her).

[MineralMan]

55. What is your evidence of that with regard to either Biden or Feinstein?

I mean actual evidence, not paraphrased statements by anonymous sources.

Did you watch Senator Feinstein in the Jackson confirmation hearings? I did.

[Sympthsical]

65. We're discussing Feinstein

You're trying to confound issues by including Biden, and I think you're well aware of doing it. No one on this board is discussing Biden at the moment. You, however, are.

What is our evidence for anything? Do you directly talk to people who have dealings with the senator? Do you have direct discussions with all the sources you read in multiple stories?

If you have the transcripts for all the discussions you've had with the sources for major, national stories, I'd love to have them provided.

This story has been coming up repeatedly over the past three or so years. It is not new. It is not a surprise. The sources are Democratic legislators.

Do you trust Democrats who are concerned? Or do you think Democratic senators and staff are lying?

Why do you think Democrats are lying?

[MineralMan]

72. I named Joe Biden in my original post. There's another thread in GD

that discusses whether he is too old to run for a second term. Here:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216593352

I started the thread. I mentioned both Biden and Feinstein. You're welcome to comment in the thread, but you're less welcome not to notice what I wrote in the initial post.

[Celerity]

82. +1

You're trying to confound issues by including Biden, and I think you're well aware of doing it.

yep

[Autumn]

171. I watched her when she grilled Jack Dorsey C.E.O. of Twitter, if his company was doing

enough to stem the spread of disinformation on Twitter. A lot of people did. I think she was not having a good day and I wasn't the only one.
This happened in 2020.

In a hearing on November 17th, Dianne Feinstein, the senior Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, who, at eighty-seven, is the oldest member of the Senate, grilled a witness. Reading from a sheaf of prepared papers, she asked Jack Dorsey, the C.E.O. of Twitter, whether his company was doing enough to stem the spread of disinformation. Elaborating, she read in full a tweet that President Trump had disseminated on November 7th, falsely claiming to have won the Presidential election. She then asked Dorsey if Twitter’s labelling of the tweet as disputed had adequately alerted readers that it was a bald lie.

It was a good question. Feinstein seemed sharp and focussed. For decades, she has been the epitome of a female trailblazer in Washington, always hyper-prepared. But this time, after Dorsey responded, Feinstein asked him the same question again, reading it word for word, along with the Trump tweet. Her inflection was eerily identical. Feinstein looked and sounded just as authoritative, seemingly registering no awareness that she was repeating herself verbatim. Dorsey graciously answered the question all over again.

Social media was less polite. A conservative Web site soon posted a clip of the humiliating moment on YouTube, under the headline “Senator Feinstein just asked the same question twice and didn’t realize she did it,” adding an emoji of someone covering his face with his hand in shame, along with bright red type proclaiming “Time to Retire!!” Six days later, under growing pressure from progressive groups who were already outraged by her faltering management of Amy Coney Barrett’s Supreme Court confirmation hearing, Feinstein released a statement announcing that she would step down from the Democrats’ senior position, while continuing as a non-ranking member of the committee. Feinstein’s office declined to comment for this article.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/dianne-feinsteins-missteps-raise-a-painful-age-question-among-senate-democrats





.

[Celerity]

58. Feinstein would be closing in on 98yo at the end of her next term. It is not ageism at all, given

her state of fitness now, let alone 6, 7, 8 years from now.

Also, you are problematically trying to attach Biden to this when he is almost 10 years younger and far removed from the behaviour Feinstein has been exhibiting.

The two are chalk and cheese.

[IbogaProject]

59. I say campaign finance being mostly unlimited is more an issue than 'voters'

Our campaign finance system hasn't ever been air tight, but it has gotten much worse post citizens united. It all comes down the big money coming in and backing 'moderates' or outright conservatives at the expense of liberals. Occasionally we get some here and there but not often enough to really move the needle towards much social progress. Arms funding, no problem. Affordable insulin? "Oh we are at legislative gridlock, sorry wish we could help"

[Hortensis]

60. AGE is just one of many angles of attack on the Democratic Party

by enemies on both right and left, domestic and foreign.

This election is a chance to take out more elected Democrats, especially Democratic leaders.

It works. Pushing terms that tested extremely negative, like "defund the police" and "socialist," cost us 10 house seats last year. In 2016, "establishment" and "just as bad as Republicans" turned the nation over to the Republicans.

Whatever works. Social media make them all cheap, deadly weapons.

[MineralMan]

64. Yes. Indeed.

It's actually fairly easy to recognize, isn't it?

[Hortensis]

68. Horribly easy. Just look at any picture of our top leaders and imagine

the national holocaust to come if age could be successfully used to turn our nation over to tRump Republicans.

[MineralMan]

70. Frightening, isn't it?

That's about all I can say, right here and right now.

[Hortensis]

108. We're witnessing the existential battle for our nation.

Scary as hell that the idealism of many could so easily be weaponized against their own aspirations.

On one side the Democratic voters who protect our liberal democracy. On the other, the factions large and small tearing away at our power. We're the citadel they all must take down, before turning to each other.

[MineralMan]

109. Clowns to the left of me; jokers to the right...

shifting tunes:

Same as it ever was. Same as. It. Ever. Was.

[Hortensis]

121. :) What keeps popping to my mind is

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness..."

Isaiah 5:20, probably 8th century BCE, and evidencing a recurring societal problem no doubt already older than the ages then. We're once again in an era when it's become normal to embrace and spread untruths in the name of good.

Just hope enough are immune to pull us all through again. The consequences if we don't this time might just qualify as "biblical."

[MineralMan]

123. As you say, it's as old as human society.

The Bible is full of such observations. In that sense, it is a "Good Book."

[DENVERPOPS]

115. Agreed.....think about the Republican Hypocrisy

The Repubs would vote for Trump in a second even though he will be 77? when the 2024 election occurs. And there are countless times he has already shown major signs of the loss of cognitive ability, and possible impending dementia.............

[Grasswire2]

61. what Lawrence O'Donnell said about Feinstein is quite worrisome

And the elders seem to be stuck in their bygone traditions of bipartisanship and comity and gentleman's agreement, while younger talented Democrats are relegated to the back bench.

Link to tweet

?s=20&t=j9whOe0IE0FJWq-UogvrQQ

[Celerity]

76. Strom 'breathing corpse' Thurmond is hardly a role model we should be striving to emulate IMHO

https://www.c-span.org/video/?174100-1/senator-thurmond-100th-birthday

[quickesst]

71. I have a comment on this subject

Here is a comprehensive and well thought out list of Democrats who have a chance to defeat whoever the GOP nominates in 2024.

Joe Biden


Name one person based upon the last political campaign they waged, and or their accomplishments in office who can step up enough to generate the excitement needed in the Democratic party for a victory in 2024?

[PoliticAverse]

75. Did you think Obama had a chance to win the next election back when GWB was President? n/t

[quickesst]

89. Absolutely

I knew pretty early on that it would be either Obama or Clinton winning the nomination, and I was pretty damn confident one of them would become president of the United States. So I have to ask, is there a specific point to your question?

[PoliticAverse]

97. Sorry, I should have been more specific...

It's 2 years and 6 months before the 2024 Presidential election.

Did you think Obama was going to be the next president 2 years and 6 months before the 2008 election?

[MineralMan]

103. He was on my short list, for sure.

Right now, Joe Biden is at the top of my list for 2024. Should he choose not to run for a second term, I have a list of alternative choices, beginning with VP Harris. However, this early, any such lists are premature, to say the least. My primary focus is on 2022.

[quickesst]

117. I don't think I had any idea..

.. at that time who would be the Democratic nominee. What I did know at the time was that the Democratic Party faced a completely different kind of opposition at the time, and as the usual cycle turns out, Democrats had a pretty good read on Bush and the GOP. I had no doubt a Democrat would be president.
The Democratic candidates, and of course the eventual nominee, Barack Obama was able to generate excitement, and vision among Democratic constituents.
There are no Barack Obama's or Hillary Clinton's to generate that excitement for 2024, although I believe I understand where you're headed, and there won't be a whole lot of excitement then, just as there wasn't a whole lot of excitement in many of the candidates 2020 primary campaigns. I don't see anything changing in the next couple of years, especially with the midterms still to be determined, and not looking that bright for democrats.
Of course things may change in the course of the next couple of years, but I'm not basing my opinion on a future I can't predict. I am basing my opinion on the circumstances as they stand right now. Joe Biden is my candidate for 2024, but if for any reason he is unable or unwilling to run, then believe me, I would like nothing better than to eat crow seeing a potential Democratic winner step up to the plate.

[H2O Man]

150. One might note

that he was considering being re-elected president at that time.

[MineralMan]

93. I certainly did.

[PoliticAverse]

99. Please see the clarification to my question...

https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16594067

[True Blue American]

154. I just read an article where Trump mentioned his health. First excuse for not running.

More to come. I do not think spending time with his family will work.

[quickesst]

172. His health may also be suffering..

.. by being sure, but not knowing who, will throw them under the bus next. Like everyone else, I'm waiting for the big shoe to drop.

[IronLionZion]

95. I'd like to replace Clarence Thomas

[MineralMan]

98. Yes, but that is a Constitutional office, not an elected one.

I wish he would resign in well-deserved disgrace. Sadly, impeaching and convicting him wouldn't be possible at this time, with this Congress.

[PoliticAverse]

101. Support Senators that support impeachment. n/t

[ForgedCrank]

107. Although I

don't have anyone particular in mind, age is a factor that has to be considered even if we don't like it.
Huge upsets in the balance can happen if someone falls too ill or passes away while in office, especially a President.
As far as I'm concerned, Joe Biden appears to be physically healthy, so he isn't much of a concern even though we all know anything could happen to anyone at any time.
It has nothing to do with ageism in my opinion. It's just a thing we have to consider when making choices for a very important national leaders.
And I will also have to disagree that it's no ones business outside of the district. National seats come with implications for all of us as a whole.

[PoliticAverse]

111. We saw what happened when RBG passed away when the Republican party got to pick a replacement.

A 5-4 court became a 6-3 one.

[yardwork]

110. It's not about age, it's about competence.

It's been clear for a while that Dianne Feinstein should retire and let somebody else take their turn.

Biden, on the other hand, is at the top of his game. I'm impressed. He's exceeded my high expectations.

It's not about age.

[Scrivener7]

114. Actually, it's about odds. What are the odds that she will pass during the

next term and can we afford to lose the seat?

RBG was totally competent during Obama's administration. But she should have stepped down.

[yardwork]

122. I agree that timing is important but age alone isn't the issue.

Plenty of 91 year olds are healthy. Feinstein is not.

[Mr.Bill]

124. As long as we have a Democratic governor

that seat is safe. And it should be noted that Gavin Newsom just kicked the shit out of people who organized a recall election to remove him from office.

[Scrivener7]

130. Yes. Sorry, I was unclear. That was kind of my point. It isn't about ageism, though.

It's about how safe is the seat if something happens when the odds are high that something will.

[Tree Lady]

125. I think there is a difference between ageism

And normal aging after 80.

The problem we have is that we have leaders in both parties that won't step down when its clear to everyone they are struggling.

Yes I am sure many fit people can do fine even until their 90's, and those we aren't talking about. It's the ones that are struggling. They make tough decisions for us as a country in emergencies and they need to have full mental capacity.

[NNadir]

129. I sat with Freeman Dyson when he was in his late eighties.

I spent between two or three hours with him in a wide ranging conversation in front of my sons.

He was sharper than I was on the best day of my life, but this said, as an old person myself, one who is involved
working with three different companies developing different approaches to the treatment of Alzheimers disease, and despite the fact that this website has a huge component of elderly baby boomers, I think so called "agism" is a legitimate topic for evaluation of ability.

Not everyone is Freeman Dyson, Joe Biden, Winston Churchill, or Nelson Mandela, all of whom retained remarkable full faculties well into their later years. Biden's remarkable Presidency derives from experience, but it is notable that he has taken care of himself.

Some elderly people are Donald Trump, who is obviously cognitively impaired. There are clear cut biomarkers in elderly people not found in younger people except in cases of trauma, as with CTE in football players. Specifically there are changes to membranes responsible for the isolation of cerebral tissues from blood, the famous or infamous blood brain barrier.

Athletes are all subject to being selected as a function of age. I don't think that any absolutes apply. I am an ex-Californian. I voted for Feinstein the year before I left. I believe her best years are well past, and she should take a clue from Oliver Wendell Holmes who resigned at the urging of his colleagues noting his age.

To paint this situation in black and white terms as an issue of bigotry is niave in the extreme.

[Celerity]

142. +1

Also, the OP's dragging in Biden and trying to bind him to Feinstein (who is almost 10 years older and who is exhibiting behaviours Biden has not) is problematic as well.

[awesomerwb1]

131. All my family in CA

are Dems. There is a nephew who has to the right tendencies at times, but besides him they're all center-left to left. They all want to see a new CA Senator. I agree.

[TeamProg]

132. Hold on there partner! Please provide DU links so we can read the arguments for / against ourselves!

I have seen very few! Except this one S.F. Chronicle piece below my personal comment.

(Dianne Feinstein, MY Senator who I always VOTE FOR, apparently doesn't always recognize her colleagues! So yeah! Maybe it's time to retire while Gavin Newsom is still our Dem Gov.. )


https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/dianne-feinstein-senate-17079487.php

WASHINGTON — When a California Democrat in Congress recently engaged in an extended conversation with Sen. Dianne Feinstein, they prepared for a rigorous policy discussion like those they’d had with her many times over the last 15 years.

Instead, the lawmaker said, they had to reintroduce themselves to Feinstein multiple times during an interaction that lasted several hours.

Rather than delve into policy, Feinstein, 88, repeated the same small-talk questions, like asking the lawmaker what mattered to voters in their district, the member of Congress said, with no apparent recognition the two had already had a similar conversation.

The episode was so unnerving that the lawmaker — who spoke to The Chronicle on condition they not be identified because of the sensitivity of the topic — began raising concerns with colleagues to see if some kind of intervention to persuade Feinstein to retire was possible. Feinstein’s term runs through the end of 2024. The conversation occurred several weeks before the death of her husband in February.

“I have worked with her for a long time and long enough to know what she was like just a few years ago: always in command, always in charge, on top of the details, basically couldn't resist a conversation where she was driving some bill or some idea. All of that is gone,” the lawmaker said. “She was an intellectual and political force not that long ago, and that’s why my encounter with her was so jarring. Because there was just no trace of that.”

Four U.S. senators, including three Democrats, as well as three former Feinstein staffers and the California Democratic member of Congress told The Chronicle in recent interviews that her memory is rapidly deteriorating. They said it appears she can no longer fulfill her job duties without her staff doing much of the work required to represent the nearly 40 million people of California.

They said that the memory lapses do not appear to be constant and that some days she is nearly as sharp as she used to be. During the March confirmation hearing for soon-to-be-Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, Feinstein appeared composed as she read pertinent questions, though she repeated comments to Jackson about the judge’s composure in the face of tough questioning. But some close to her said that on her most difficult days, she does not seem to fully recognize even longtime colleagues.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So..... Congresspersons have a responsibility to bow out when they can no longer serve the public to the fullest of their capacity, no?

'Here, hold my beer, watch me govern!'

[hamsterjill]

134. The question that I have is why

Anyone that age would want to continue working. I can’t wait to retire, get rid of a schedule and some stress, and enjoy the time I have left.

It’s her right to do as she sees fit, but not if she’s suffering cognitively. I wouldn’t want a doctor operating on me who had cognitive difficulties, wouldn’t want anyone with cognitive difficulties on the road with me, and certainly not representing me.

[XanaDUer2]

148. This! Nt

[Gore1FL]

135. The discussion isn't about Senator Dianne Feinstein being old.

It is a concern about her health. Even Schumer had discussions with her. Repeat after me: "This isn't ageism. This is health."

[TeamProg]

140. +1

[SpankMe]

144. I respectfully disagree with the awesome MineralMan

I love your stuff here on DU, my good fellow. But I firmly disagree with your characterization that says we're seeking to put senior Dems out to pasture. I feel that's kind of a snarky and insulting way to put it. You're mischaracterizing the true motivation for wanting younger elected officials in office.

The true motivation is not "putting out to pasture" as much as it is positioning Dems for future, long term leadership. Republicans are installing all sort of young whippersnappers in judgeships and elected office across the board thus positioning them to be in a majority for a long time.

They've stacked SCOTUS with a majority 50-somethings for what will be a 30 year run of gruesome conservative decisions. They have young leaders in the Senate and in congress who will be almost impossible to vote out due to advantages of incumbency.

We must discuss what-ifs and be prepared to act and strategize early. What of Joe can't or doesn't run in '24? Who is our heir apparent? What if DiFi has public gaffes that show unmistakable mental compromise? What is our back up?

I have confidence in Joe. But, sadly, the reporting on Senator Feinstein is too solid and alarming. These stories of Senator Feinstein's condition have been around for years and are getting more "real" with every passing day. Yes, her voting record is strong with our side of the aisle. But, we need razor sharpness outside of the Senate chamber, too. It's clear she's being carried by her staff more and more and that her ability to engage and converse with her colleagues and the public is severely diminished. Therefore, it's fair do discuss a potential transition to the next younger generation to move us past 2024 and minimize the effect of the likely bloodbath.

87 million eligible voters didn't vote in the 2020 election. A large majority of that was people under 40 who would likely have favored Democrats. We have to engage younger voters to get out there and vote. This becomes harder when our candidates are 90.

[cksmithy]

145. i googled Tom Sykes and Dianne Feinstein

article by Sykes, a few paragraphs came up, on the daily beast, said to read the story at the Chronicle, the
San Francisco Chronicle. Well, I did this morning, the first newspaper I read for the day, everyday since I live in California. It is at least two newspaper pages long, written by Joe Garofoli and Tail Kopan. If you haven't read the whole article, not the few paragraphs written or copied from their article out of context, just a reminder, that you can't always believe what you read.

[msongs]

146. investing in thte future is a good thing IMO nt

[BlackSkimmer]

149. Well, what we say here really makes no never mind, so there's that.

For the most part, I agree with you, but I think 88 is pushing it a bit.

As you say however, it’s really none of my business.

[Demsrule86]

159. Sanders is older than Biden and has a GOP Governor, B iden stays if healthy,

[Grasswire2]

161. maybe THIS reality means something to consider

"If Democrats retain control of the Senate next year, Feinstein will succeed retiring Vermont Sen. Patrick Leahy as the Senate’s president pro tem — putting her third in line for the presidency."

Third in line for the presidency.

[Duppers]

164. JOHN McCAIN

I'll never forget his thumbs-down vote.

He died of cancer at 81, not old age.

[pecosbob]

168. Would much rather have octagenarians in the Senate than blue dogs...

[mcar]

170. I admit I commented on the Feinstein OP

because if she is failing, she is too much of a Democratic hero to let herself become parody. Otherwise, you are right, MM.

We need to focus on 2022, stop with the doom & gloom and GOTV!