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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRob Reiner on MSNBC talking about end of Democracy
He's saying everyday that Trump is not indicted brings us one step closer to the end of Democracy.
Do you agree? I realize this is a massive criminal case, but Garland needs to understand the consequences of not prosecuting people like Trump.
It will forever give tyrants permission to overthrow the government, because they know they can get away with it.
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bucolic_frolic
(43,293 posts)and have been moving that way for months. Peak Trump is way over long time ago. Yes MAGA will have solidarity, but we do have momentum, we're fighting, we have an open society with real time communications (unlike Germany 1930s). Count our blessings.
Firestorm49
(4,037 posts)
mopinko
(70,222 posts)that's when the screaming for garland to act reached current pitch. when garland said he'd follow the evidence wherever it led, i think he got a resounding- you fucking better.
gab13by13
(21,405 posts)believe it is bad for the country to indict a former president. It sure looks to me that also applies to current and former politicians.
I don't see DOJ even investigating Republican politicians, that would be partisan.
The select committee is fighting to obtain 36,000 emails from John Eastman, the author of the coup plan. Eastman is claiming executive privilege, so a judge has to sort through all of those emails before considering releasing them. Why doesn't DOJ get his emails?
Me.
(35,454 posts)I haven't forgotten how they claimed many of the people put in gov. by tfg said they were credible and to be trusted. THe biggest example of that would be BIll Barr who so many swore that with him we were in safe hands. I hope Garland isn't listening to those recon lawyers.
milestogo
(16,829 posts)who tried to overthrow our democracy.
Would you rather lose an arm or be beheaded?
Marius25
(3,213 posts)and we're a Monarchy.
Ohio Joe
(21,761 posts)"I don't see DOJ even investigating Republican politicians, that would be partisan."
Twice in the last few days I showed you where they were... Here is where you asked for one yesterday:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216620945#post3
Here is where I gave you a few, plus some close allies:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216620945#post7
And we both know that is far from the only time... I've showed that to you over and over but you keep repeating the same bullshit... Why?
"The select committee is fighting to obtain 36,000 emails from John Eastman, the author of the coup plan. Eastman is claiming executive privilege, so a judge has to sort through all of those emails before considering releasing them. Why doesn't DOJ get his emails?"
This is another pile bullshit you keep shoveling out to make it look like DOJ is not doing something. Here is where you tried it on Friday in a weird response to yourself:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216617462#post2
And where I told you some reality:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216617462#post11
Why keep repeating things that are not true?
Marius25
(3,213 posts)Republicans are expected to win big in November. That's not a sign of accountability.
mopinko
(70,222 posts)and at least admit that indictments, trials and the j6 committee have the potential to flip over the tables.
paleotn
(17,963 posts)"Russia will quickly overwhelm the Ukrainians". They give these "pronouncements" such as "Republicans will retake the house!" with zero data to back it up. Looking at the new map district by district, it's not the catastrophe the chatterers and scribblers make it out to be.
Marius25
(3,213 posts)giving Republicans a chance at a seat pickup.
California lost a blue seat. Arizona lost a blue seat.
If the Florida map is allowed to stay, that's a 4 Republican seat gain.
Meanwhile, New York's pro-Dem gerrymander map was ruled unconstitutional.
New York could save us from losing the House if their new map stays and Florida gets thrown out.
scipan
(2,359 posts)the process of redrawing the nation’s 435 congressional districts to reflect the results of the 2020 census — is not quite finished, but it’s getting darn close. Only four states (Florida, Maryland, Missouri and New Hampshire) have yet to approve new maps (though the maps in several states are currently being challenged in court, so some states that have approved new maps could see those maps overturned — as happened in Maryland just last week).
So while some of the specific numbers will change, we now have a good sense of what the big-picture takeaway from this redistricting cycle will be. No matter which way you slice it, Democrats have gained blue seats from the mapmaking process, making the House playing field between the two parties more balanced than it has been in decades. But that doesn’t mean the 2022 congressional map should be considered “fair.”
As the maps stand on March 30 at 5 p.m. Eastern, 175 congressional districts have a FiveThirtyEight partisan lean1 of D+5 or bluer, 181 have a partisan lean of R+5 or redder and 33 are in the “highly competitive” category between D+5 and R+5.
That’s a net increase of 11 Democratic-leaning seats from the old maps. Meanwhile, the number of Republican-leaning seats has decreased by six, as has the number of highly competitive seats.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-house-maps-republican-bias-will-plummet-in-2022-because-of-gerrymandering/
Marius25
(3,213 posts)scipan
(2,359 posts)And it's being challenged.
You make it sound like Dems lost seats due to gerrymandering. The reality is that Dems gained.
KS Toronado
(17,325 posts)plus when they do we need to paint all repugs as dishonest and untrustworthy insurrectionists.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216623430
paleotn
(17,963 posts)Marius25
(3,213 posts)Florida's map gives Republicans +4 seats. New York would have given Dems a huge boost, but the courts rejected it as too gerrymandered for Dems.
Arizona and California each lost a blue seat. My state is blue and Republicans now have a chance of picking up an extra seat due to ungerrymandering.
paleotn
(17,963 posts)Republicans are no where near the +242 R to R lean districts they had in 2008. Flip 10...TEN...seats to R / lean R from the article's 218 projection and you're still at 2020 levels, 228 R to R lean districts. Now, who runs the House after the 2020 election?
One of the big takeaways is, historically, R's need a huge advantage in R / R lean seats to gain control. Apparently they don't tend to do very well in R lean districts, particularly when they go all "culture wars."
Marius25
(3,213 posts)I really hope the New York map stays in place. That would help us so much. It's a massive Democratic gain.
PortTack
(32,794 posts)
Kablooie
(18,641 posts)With many state elections being controlled by MAGA traitors, this fall might present more “elected” politicians dedicated to overthrowing the government. There will be concerted efforts to stop any criminal consequences.
If there has been no serious accountability by then we could be in danger.
gab13by13
(21,405 posts)I just want Trump and his co-conspirators investigated by Garland first.
agingdem
(7,859 posts)and we know there are multiple investigations underway... the DOJ doesn't leak and investigations are conducted under the shroud of secrecy, both good things...Garland will not indict until the J6 committee goes public (hearings/final report)..to do so would diminish the committee...and so we wait..oy!
Bev54
(10,072 posts)and his cohorts. They are going after Trump's lawyers and cohorts first, there is information to be had. I am Canadian and absorb the same news sources most Americans do, dans Fox, and I cannot understand this Garland is doing nothing narrative". It along with "the dems are going to lose in the election" narrative, it is all so self defeating. There are a lot of positives if people would just stope the negative. Do you think those who helped win Georgia senate seats just sat back and said it is not going to happen? Garland knows what the hell he is doing.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)Do you mean when the majority of voters simply did not choose Trump? I'm not being snarky, I'm just wanting to clarify.
Because if that's what you mean that's drastically different on the accountability spectrum.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)ahead.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)I didn’t say that I believe democracy is dead. I simply don’t believe losing an election equates to accountability for overt, repeated criminality. You seem to be a bit of a stickler regarding terminology and our criminal justice system which is why I was surprised you used the term convicted in the context of voting.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)There is plenty of evidence that trump is unfit for office, going way back before 2016. But that is not criminal.
Beat these MFers at the polls, not in some court proceeding.
Marius25
(3,213 posts)for Treason and Sedition, much less the countless other crimes he committed.
And he's running again in 2024.
Stop with this right-wing talking point.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Marius25
(3,213 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Marius25
(3,213 posts)No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Marius25
(3,213 posts)if they engage or support insurrection and rebellion.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)keep confederates out of the Congress after the Civil War?
Can someone just say it, without a court proceeding to convict someone? I think not.
I detest MTG and the 100s just like her who will run and win in her district should she not run. But I'm not for rinky dink actions designed to manipulate the ballot to keep her, or anyone else, off the ballot without due process. I think it makes us look bad, and is anti-democratic.
What, exactly, are you claiming?
That people are advocating for MTG and Trump to be prohibited from public office on a whim?
Who is saying that?
Who isn't clamoring for the DOJ to get it in gear and do something because time is rapidly running out? How many times do people have to hear about overwhelming evidence of criminality, only to see nothing happen, or, worse, see people like the New York DA and clown college graduate Alvin Bragg suddenly drop a long simmering case because...reasons?
What "rinky dink" actions? MTG is in court right now over this issue. Praise be to Georgia voters who saw the need to act.
Voting is becoming the exclusive domain of white conservatives thanks to massive suppression efforts in all the states...and more...that narrowly got Biden elected. Hoping that somehow enough people will turn up at the polls AGAIN to save democracy is, in my opinion, wishful thinking. The Democrats got a hard won majority and, for many, haven't delivered on their many promises. Blame the Republicans, blame Manchin, blame an entrenched system that favors corporate interests over literally anything else, or blame the weather. None of that will sway voters in the Fall. The House looks set to swing Republican in every poll I've read. And not by a little. Should that hold and the GOP takes the House, expect non-stop investigations and obstruction. Benghazi to the nth degree. Jan 6th will become a national holiday (okay, maybe not that...).
If the Senate and White House ultimately go red, then Democracy is almost certainly done in the States. All those suppression laws, whether they are targeted at minorities or women, will get elevated to the Federal level, and the Supreme Court will be there to back it all.
What will be the plan then?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)while we look somewhat anti-democratic if you ask me.
Hope the Senate and WH don't end up red, but trying to manipulate ballots is hardly democratic.
Beat the MFers at the polls.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)And that's something we simply don't have in at least half our states.
There's no fighting it at this point, either; the US Supreme Court has already stated that ensuring free, fair elections is not their purview. It's up to states to ensure their own elections are transparent, accurate and secure.
And to make it worse, red states with horribly racist gerrymandering have already maneuvered so that even though they've lost in court, the racist maps will still be used for this November's elections. They know that after that, it doesn't matter.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)NullTuples
(6,017 posts)Things like:
VoterID laws
Eliminating polling places in Black &/or Democratic leaning areas
Shifting poll resources (money, machines, etc) away from Black / Dem districts
Continued use of voting systems known for 20 years to not only be insecure, but to have no audit trail at all
Voter strike rolls that in 2020 had as high as 30x more people struck than Trump's margin of victory in that state
Redistricting to nearly or completely eliminate Black-majority districts
Eliminating vote by mail &/or vote collecting &/or vote delivery
Eliminating early voting in states where Dems tend to vote early
Baring felons from voting
and so on...
Novara
(5,851 posts)No amount of GOTV overturns 34 laws on the books in 19 states that give republicans the power to overturn election results they don't like.
Don't think they won't use that power, no matter how many people vote for Democrats, no matter how overwhelmingly we turn out.
And no, voting people out of office is NOT accountability for crimes against the United States. That is utterly ridiculous. Prosecution and conviction of these felonies is accountability.
Efilroft Sul
(3,581 posts)They know what you're talking about but they don't want to talk about it. It might force them to defend the indefensible again, like Manchin or Sinema or some other unnamed centrist who thinks that defending free and fair elections is a radical leftist idea, or is something that sounds too partisan.
Novara
(5,851 posts)Congress simply gave up after Manchin and Sinema chose the filibuster over America.
I have called my senators and my rep but no one seems to be pushing Manchin and Sinema even a tiny bit. Not even to make it a talking filibuster once again. They won't even do that, which is the fucking minimum change to the filibuster. If these motherfuckers value the "history" of the filibuster so much, then turn it back to the historical talking filibuster. At least make it so there has to be a fucking effort to block legislation. As it stands, all anyone has to do is object and a bill is dead.
That ain't democracy.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)You actually summed it up very succinctly: "Belief in GOTV to win in '22 and '24 is unicorn-shitting-rainbows optimism."
Yes, GOTV, while simultaneously recognizing and combatting the full-on assault on voting rights and the concept of democracy and proceed accordingly, preferably going on the offensive by holding people accountable. I don't know precisely how but I sure hope the open hearings next month lay their disdain for democracy bare for the more apathetic citizens to see since our media as a whole hasn't even tried.
I know the legalities and justice can be tricky but I think some people miss for forest for the trees and deny the bigger overall picture. The Trumpists aren't merely people to be defeated at the ballot box; Trumpism (now that we can more simply label what the GOP has been working toward for decades) needs to be destroyed, as much as possible, in our society by making their values completely unacceptable, not merely a "difference of political opinion." Just as Germany did after WWII with Nazism.
Efilroft Sul
(3,581 posts)I wished I could have summed up my frustrations in a more elegant way, but too often on DU, the conversations with its sensible woodchucks go like this:
Us: Manchin is making it impossible to protect free and fair elections!
Sensible Woodchucks: If you want to negate Manchin's influence over legislation, you have to elect more Democrats to the Senate!
Us: But the Republicans are rigging the game at the state level to overturn election results and the Democrats are doing nothing!
Sensible Woodchucks: Get out the vote!
And, of course, we're also told, "You'll just have to work harder to bend the moral arc of the universe, Sparky!" And when I see that, I just want to shout, "Motherchucker, we busted our asses in 2018 and 2020 to help Democrats take back Congress and the White House. WE did our job, our civic duty. Why don't THEY work on behalf of all of us to protect democracy?" The threat is existential, and the woodchucks chide us for pointing it out.
Novara
(5,851 posts)"WE did our job, our civic duty. Why don't THEY work on behalf of all of us to protect democracy?" The threat is existential, and the woodchucks chide us for pointing it out."
I get it: people feel helpless when our elected representatives won't work for their constituents, which is their freaking JOB. But sticking your head in the sand solves northing.
I have my senators and my rep in my phone contact list and I call them. A LOT. Maybe it has an effect; maybe it doesn't. But it at least makes me feel like I am doing something. I am fortunate to be represented by Democrats. I also call their offices when they do something I really like. But the way I see it, we need to tell them what we expect because they're supposed to work for us.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)agingdem
(7,859 posts)accountability and punishment...voting the orange cretin out of office is not justice served...
Silent3
(15,269 posts)A brief reprieve that Republicans are using to rig the system and stack the courts to make it easier for Republicans to steal future elections, voters be damned.
And simply losing an election is not anywhere near what's needed to hold Trump and his cohorts accountable for their crimes.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)manipulate ballots to keep people we don't like off. That ain't democracy, sorry.
Silent3
(15,269 posts)Are you totally, blissfully unaware of all the voter suppression laws Republicans are passing?
Have you missed out on the fact that many people are running for Secretary of State, and trying to get into other positions of power to manipulate elections, running under the banner of Trump's Big Lie?
Keeping insurrectionists off the ballot who are constitutionally ineligible to be there isn't "manipulate ballots", it's a fair election.
Are you just laboring under the false assumption that making efforts to gain votes for democrats and keeping the likes of MTG off the ballot are mutually exclusive pursuits?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)ballot, I guess assuming we can't beat them at polls.
Sorry, but that sounds banana republic to me.
I have not missed fact states could -- or have -- elect(ed) people who could manipulate results. Fortunately, they held in 2020, but it could happen. Ultimately, the solution is to still GOTV, it's the only way to beat them at this point.
Silent3
(15,269 posts)And there's nothing "banana republic" about enforcing the 14th amendment.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)So far, we don't have that.
GOPer ratfuckery didn't work in 2020, last election we had. And the courts held firm.
Silent3
(15,269 posts)Republicans have learned from their mistakes, they have become far more aggressive about suppression and outright overriding voters, and they've targeted everyone who wasn't a coup supporter the last time around to weed them out.
As for evidence of participation in an insurrection, what's in plain sight already is pretty damning. If these were average citizens up on drug charges, they'd already be locked up.
Only by the privileged standards, "Oh, these are special, connected people! We need overwhelming abundant super airtight their-own-mothers-would-thrown-them-in-jail evidence, times ten over, or else we dare not risk going to trial and looking bad if we lose!" is there a question of enough evidence to convict these bastards.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)was at a meeting that we know nothing else about, there’s a tape available (but it exonerates the person taped), the phone log was blank for 7 hours for easily explained reasons, we all know he’s a cad and would do it, more likely than not, trump said fight, etc., are not evidence “beyond a reason doubt.”
Nor will “people met with trump to present ideas for overturning election” won’t work either, if the alternatives weren’t used because trump can just say, “I rejected those ideas.”
Think we better prepare to beat them at polls, rather than spending time trying to keep them off ballot. But if you can pull it off without alienating the 5 to 10% of voters who will decide upcountry elections, I’m all for it.
Silent3
(15,269 posts)I'm fucking sick and tired of government officials being held to such low standards that you'd have to be inside Trump's head and know that he explicitly meant "Go violently assault Congress". When you're in that high a position of responsibility, you should damned well be accountable for the results of inflammatory rhetoric even if you're too damned stupid to know you're playing with fire.
Think we better prepare to beat them at polls, rather than spending time trying to keep them off ballot.
Again with the "rather than", as if we're talking about mutually exclusive actions again. That's a mental habit of false dichotomies you should break.
As for "without alienating the 5 to 10%", you seem to envision a situation where indicting, convicting, or excluding people like Trump or MTG from the ballot somehow drives away people who would vote for Democrats and/or energizes more people to vote for Republicans, rather than quite possibly invigorating Democratic voters and demoralizing Republican voters. The latter seems much more likely than the former to me.
If you think Democratic victory can and should depend entirely on GOTV, to the utter exclusion of any other efforts, you'd better be braced for crushing disappointment.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)criminal charge.
I believe trying to exclude people from ballot is undemocratic. Apparently, some don’t give a damn.
Beat the MFers at the polls.
Midwestern Democrat
(806 posts)to leave the party because I objected to California's horrible legislation that would have barred Trump from the ballot if he didn't show his tax returns - apparently my quaint democratic notion that the voters should get to decide whether that is a disqualifier for holding office was heresy to this guy - and of course, I was vindicated - the federal courts immediately granted an injunction and the California Supreme Court struck it down UNANIMOUSLY.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Some folks think if you don’t follow the group-think you are a GOPer, which is far from truth.
Heck, when I attained voting age in Deep South, I darn sure didn’t vote for Democrats like Wallace, Barnett, Lester Maddox, Thurmond, etc. Not saying GOPers were civil rights activists back then. But they weren’t waving confederate flag, going to Klan rallies, etc.
Thank gawd, that changed in 1970s.
gulliver
(13,195 posts)We need to be constantly selling the advantages of democracy and visualizing the pain of its loss, not invoking the word "democracy" like a talisman in a vocal tone of "help us Mommy" apprehension.
Don't let people be ignorant of the foundation of our prosperity, a well-made democratic republic. Give them a pearl-clutching news media synopsis choice between Barabbas and Jesus, guess who a lot of them are going to pick.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,564 posts)We are close to losing our democratic form of government
Hotler
(11,445 posts)put a big dent in the leadership of the fascist party. They need to find a way to dirty up Desantis and jail him also. If the fascist take power the first thing they will do is go after political enemies (anyone thats a Dem) the Bidens, Nancy, Hillary, the whole 1/6 committee, journalist, etc. and either imprison them or execute them. Protest will not be allowed and put down by force.
Democrats = Democracy
Republicans = Fascism
That should be our message for 2022.
ananda
(28,876 posts)So, yes I agree and more.
barbtries
(28,811 posts)Every day that justice is delayed...it begins to seem that there is no will to pursue it at all.
CloudWatcher
(1,851 posts)The rule of law is a set of principles, or ideals, for ensuring an orderly and just society. Many countries throughout the world strive to uphold the rule of law where no one is above the law, everyone is treated equally under the law, everyone is held accountable to the same laws, there are clear and fair processes for enforcing laws, there is an independent judiciary, and human rights are guaranteed for all.
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/rule-of-law/
When Ford pardoned Nixon (September 8, 1974), we lost the right to say that this was a nation where the Rule of Law applied.
And all these years later, we have not yet reclaimed the right to use the phrase.
plimsoll
(1,670 posts)Every day he is not indicted is further proof that we live in a class based society. Laws that apply to one group and not to another. Eventually people realize that unequal enforcement means unequal justice which is effectively no justice. I think we may have hit that tipping point already. At that point arguing against vigilante justice becomes impossible, but that only perpetuates that unequal justice because the lower class or the weak will not be permitted to step outside the "law" that right is reserved for the elite.
You can have a class based democracy, but it's pretty hard to call it a republic.
Baked Potato
(7,733 posts)all the warnings of Republicans pulling shenanigans at the State level.
They are trying to demoralize Democrats so they stay home.
Silent3
(15,269 posts)Voter suppression laws and corrupt Big Lie-touting election official can and will fuck over Democratic electoral power, in and of themselves, without needing "demoralizing" to help.
Blowing smoke up our own asses that GOTV is a complete solution doesn't help either.
GOTV is necessary, of course, but it is far from sufficient to counter Republican attacks on democracy in this country.
