You can't keep playing by the rules when one side has NO rules.

[onecaliberal]

We need to drop the butter knife and get a bazooka.

[Make7]

1. Murder is OK? Genocide?

No thanks.

[onecaliberal]

3. What are you talking about?

Im NOT referring to the war in Ukraine. Im talking the information war. You just assumed a hell of a lot.

[Make7]

7. So people can't be murdered in this information war?

Dozens of journalists are killed every year to suppress information.

Is that against the rules? Or is that not part of the information war you have so clearly not defined?

[elias7]

8. A reasonable response if talking about Ukraine, but still, it poses the real question

Of how do we engage them on their level? These people lie, then deny, then gaslight like you or I breathe. It’s not in many of our natures to be dishonest and manipulative and ruthless, yet the situation demands we do Something Different, as the OP suggests. What do you mean, then, by a bazooka?

[Butterflylady]

15. It means you don't use a knife in a gun fight.

[paleotn]

39. +1000! Exactly!

[mitch96]

46. +1!!!

[paleotn]

38. There was once a day when Dems where ruthless as hell

Did Dems go after people? You're goddamn right they did. Did they destroy opponents? Hell yes. If there was dirt to be found, we found it and it was broadcast widely. Wanker Republicans have closets packed with skeletons. Find them and ruin them. Destroy their lives. Drag them through the mud kicking and screaming. I'm all for it. What is being done to Madison Cawthorn by his own party machinery in NC is the same thing Dems use to do to Republicans and anyone else who pulled the kind of shit Gym Jordan and MTG do on a daily basis.

And no. No one is saying kill people. Jesus Christ on a goddamn stick.

[Phoenix61]

47. I'm not sure I'd call it ruthless.

More like playing by the rules. Everybody knows if you run for public office whatever skeletons you have had better be hidden incredibly well or they will be dragged out into the bright light of day. The only folks who want a political official with skeletons are those who would use those skeletons as levers to advance their own self-interest.l

[bluecollar2]

68. +100...n/t

[paleotn]

34. Ugh....

[Bettie]

77. Um, there's a long way between being blunt and decisive

and, in all honesty, a little bit mean in communication with regard to the Right and what they are doing and murder/genocide.

[Orrex]

2. I've said as much for years

Democrats are slowly trying to hold Republikkkans accountable within the structure of the existing, while Republikkkans are working hard and fast to destroy the system.

Strategically, who has the advantage in such a scenario?

[onecaliberal]

4. They already have enough of their people counting the votes to destroy the system.

[Mad_Machine76]

21. So what's our response

they're trying to rig the system and we should too? How would we be any better if we did the same kind of things they're doing? We can't just invent new laws or rules or systems out of whole cloth. They will do what they will, however, it's ultimately up to us to make sure we let everybody else know what they are doing and that they're breaking the rules and do whatever we can to hold them accountable to the degree that we can. Hopefully, most people will be able to understand what's going and revolt against them and hold them accountable in the voting booth (if nowhere else) but even if they don't, we still need to keep it up. Democracy dies when people stop caring about it and trying to circumvent it. It's bad enough what the Republicans are doing but we'd be no better if we stab it in the back too.

[onecaliberal]

23. I don't know why people are interpreting my post as advocating

For breaking the law. ITS NOT. It’s quite the opposite. I want the fucking criminals locked up. I want those who committed crimes to face the consequences. Do you think if the shoe was on the other foot that republicans would wait 200 days after issuing a contempt citation for the justice department to move? NO.
Wake up.

[Orrex]

67. When I have expressed concern about the sluggish pace of justice in this regard...

I've been scolded for my lack of faith in The System, and how dare I presume to tell AG Garland et al how to do their jobs.

The mechanisms for holding Republikkkans accountable are slow-moving and easily delayed, while the mechanisms of Republikkkan sabotage are fast-acting with dire long-term consequences difficult to undo.

Again, which side has the strategic advantage?

And meanwhile, on a related note, NPR (the famous "liberal media" flagship) has reminded us for the 80th time today that Republicans will take over the House and possibly the Senate in November.


Take your time, AG Garland. Take your fucking time.

[Tadpole Raisin]

40. My feeling is dems have to stop bending over backwards to be fair. Yes,

Be fair but not to the nth degree.

The analogy in the criminal system is clear. If you are an average Joe and you rob a bank you get the book thrown at you. If you are a corporate banker who ‘robs’ a bank you get deferential treatment and as we saw in the 2008/9 Great Recession.

If prosecutors make a deal with a company they tout the biggest fine BUT no one pays back the money, no one admits they did anything and no one goes to jail.

F that.

Maybe the concern is that if they go after the corporate or political criminals and lose then the gloves are off and all these guys will know for sure that none of the laws are enforceable. They will then be free to go even further.

But that fear should not stop them from trying. That just tells them you are weak and feckless.

[dalton99a]

5. Stamp that on the forehead of every D official

and on their screensaver

[hamsterjill]

6. +1000

And we need to stop the chiding being leveled against those of us who feel this way. It’s common sense and logical, and any argument against doing it is coming from someone who wants the other side to be in power.

[onecaliberal]

10. I don't even listen to it any more. Just goes straight to ignore.

[hamsterjill]

13. I don't listen to it.

But I think it indicates a divide in the party and I think those chiding need to realize that and stop. Just my two and a half cents. Discussion can be had without screaming that anyone wanting action is being “negative”, which is what I see on DU all the time. You say you want action and someone immediately says you are being negative and going to cause people to stay away from the voting booth in the midterms. To me, the complete opposite is true. If people don’t start seeing action, they will become frustrated and it will be those voters we lose.

[XanaDUer2]

14. I had a nut boss

In my last cult-like job who ended up yelling, "don't be negative" if any employee even broached the subject of improving the toxic workplace.

That stuck with me

[onecaliberal]

20. We've done it their way, look where we are.

[smirkymonkey]

30. +1000

[usaf-vet]

28. Agreed! But I have a question regarding Democratic messaging. For YEARS the repugs have used.....

..... Frank Luntz. And as much as I despise him and the damage he has done to our Democracy, he has been VERY, VERY effective by structuring the repugs messaging. Here is his bio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz

All we do is talk about our need to do more and better messaging (IMHO). But do very little effective sustained across the board messaging (again (IMO)

WHY DO WE NOT HAVE A Frank Luntz structuring our words and messages and making and pushing bumper sticker phrases that EVERY Democratic "talking head" with a soapbox then doesn't repeat over and over and over.

I think that is the most significant part of our failure to advance and sustain an agenda successfully.

[hamsterjill]

45. Great point!!!

We definitely need better and more bold messaging. We need to get better at explaining the good that Dems represent and the absolute shit that Republicans not only represent but have reaped on this country over the last decades. In simple, plain language that ordinary Joe can jot only understand but can’t refute in a two word tweet!!!

[ymetca]

55. Because the divide

is between the Carville and Sanders "camps", basically.

The old Bill Clinton era "triangulation" strategy (Carville, Third Way, No Labels, etc.) isn't working anymore. And the big money donors don't like Sanders and the "squad", despite their messaging being very effective. TFG capitalized on that messaging, but turned it on its head. He was picked for that very reason, by very well-healed plutocrats who fund both sides of the aisle.

I really have no idea what messaging will work anymore, as the media landscape right now is Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.

All I know is the infuriating gridlock in the Senate is exactly where McConnell, Manchin, and others, want us to be.

Reducing the Executive Branch to ineffectuality, except for bombing hapless people in faraway lands, seems what we're stuck in.

Meanwhile, the planet burns.

Personally, I have devolved into just admiring the anti-work memes, and "slacktivist" trickle in social media, wherein every governmental assumption about labor, work, finance, economics, and so on, is demolished for it's absurdity in addressing any real-world problems we face.

As for Democratic strategy, the only solution I can come up with is adding D.C. and Puerto Rico as States, and extending that offer to any country on the planet --hey! Wanna be the NEXT U.S. State? YOU TOO can join!

Tell the Republicans --hell yes, we're trying to BURY you in more voters, larger representation --that's the DEMOCRATIC way!

[area51]

69. jmo, it might help if Dem leadership listened to

George Lakoff.

[Kaleva]

36. So are you advocating we engage in criminal behavior?

Or do you think we should follow the rules by obeying the laws?

[hamsterjill]

44. And here we go...

I’m advocating that the Dems get tough. Are you suggesting that the current means are effective?

[Kaleva]

49. How are you going to get tough? Please explain.

[hamsterjill]

51. Messaging and more messaging.

Garland needs to charge Trump. Anyone who can bring a case against Trump needs to. This fear of losing a case so we don’t even try to get him is wimpy and shows a lack of confidence. Voters want confidence.

You and I have had this conversation before. It’s not my job to figure it out. It’s the political candidates’ jobs. Once elected, they are paid to do the job they wanted so expecting them to do that job is not unreasonable.

But right now, Republicans are getting their agenda across better than Democrats are IN MY OPINION, and we need to do better. If you disagree, then please explain how YOU would do things.

[Kaleva]

52. So you are going to play by the rules

And if I understand you right, you want our elected officials to play by the rules too but just be tougher.

That's fine!

[hamsterjill]

53. Well glad that I have your approval.

Now, define rules….

See what I mean?

[Kaleva]

54. Obeying the law

[hamsterjill]

56. Like the Republicans do, right?

Gray area.

[Kaleva]

65. If the Rs don't obey the law, do you think we should?

[hamsterjill]

66. Is this alert bait?

Because that’s what it feels like it is.

Have a great evening and be safe!

[mopinko]

9. i'm hoping obama's got this.

i know we often lamented here that he sat out tfg nightmare, but it was understandable.
imho, he is the perfect person for this fight. equal parts smarts and snark.
and a big, big megaphone.

we need him out front on this.

[hamsterjill]

57. Obama would be good.

But do you have any reason to believe that he will be more engaged? I would like to think so, but I’ve not seen anything to conclude that. Perhaps you have and can offer me some hope???

[mopinko]

58. yeah, he made a big announcement the other day,

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216612594

[onecaliberal]

71. This is outstanding.

[Skittles]

62. LOL

you mean, like, the way he held BUSH INC accountable?

[mopinko]

63. i think the plan is to take it apart.

i think he has seriously looked at the issue, and has ideas of how you drag that shit out into the sunshine. his speech the other day was a precursor to the announcement.

[we can do it]

12. Wrong

[usaf-vet]

29. YUP! Sadly I think that is exactly what is going to happen. nt

[PatSeg]

17. Oh, they have rules, but they are different

"You lose and we can do whatever it takes to win."

[kentuck]

18. Somebody has to go to jail for conspiring to attack the Capitol...

Only then will they see that the DOJ is seriousl

Otherwise, we are all at their mercy.

[Mad_Machine76]

19. I keep hearing people say this

but I never hear what it exactly means in terms of actual action steps.

[onecaliberal]

22. One step would be unified message telling people

How Democrats saved the economy and helped them stay in their homes and gave them money for food during the shut down. How republicans are taking credit for these things when they ALL voted against it. We need to go TO THE SOUTH and talk to people.
The public also needs to understand what will happen if republicans get power. Rule of law is OVER, democracy is OVER.
We can’t keep doing the same bullshit that has taken us to the brink of losing it all because the other side doesn’t care about breaking the law on the daily.
I am making calls in California and people are very angry. They want to see action.

[FBaggins]

27. So you're saying that all of those things are false but we should lie and pretend they're true? nt

[Scrivener7]

60. WTF? THAT'S what you read in that? Read it again. And this time

go from left to right. Maybe that will help.

[FBaggins]

78. I read it again - same issue.

Initial proposition - "We can't keep playing by the rules"

Clarifying question - "I'm not sure what that even means"

Restated proposition - "unified messaging saying X, Y, and Z"

Inescapable conclusion - Stating X/Y/Z is "not playing by the rules"

"How could that be true?" is a reasonable response

[HariSeldon]

24. A few ideas

* Find conservative frequenters of Fox News willing to plug a certain almost-liberal ideas for enough money (to be deliverd when the support airs on Fox News), then out the lot of them as shills willing to say anything for enough money.

* Run bot farms establishing social media accounts with a right-wing slant, only to later have an "epiphany" (time-staggered across the accounts) about how hard Republicans work to make life suck for the average American.

* Create and publicize a secure system for reporting misdeeds of Republican politicians, then subtly drop hints about things coming to light if certain Republicans don't buck their party to follow the wishes of their constituents on certain votes.

[Mad_Machine76]

25. Well

Those are ideas

[onecaliberal]

26. The media needs to do to republicans what Jim Acosta did to trailer green.

[Sympthsical]

31. It's just important that people feel sufficiently mad

At least as mad and anxious as the people who sit on social media all day.

Otherwise, what are we all doing here?!

Actionable steps? Tch. That's for, like, . . . other people to figure out.

Me being mad and saying things is as much work as I can be reasonably expected to do, and why are people attacking me by saying otherwise?!

But seriously. I love this stuff. It's low effort rawr signalling. "The virtue of my anger is without bounds. I will spend a thousand pixels if I have to!"

I mean, ok. Any of that stuff happening, say, outside of the house?

The answer is no. It is almost always no.

[paleotn]

43. Look no further than what's being done to Madison Cawthorn....

by his own party. He either won't or is too stupid to play ball and they're tired of his shit. For once, our interests have coincided.

[smirkymonkey]

32. It amazes me how many people here think you - and those of us who think like you -

automatically think that we are advocating violence, law breaking and other dirty tricks.

It seems to me that all we have to do is tell the TRUTH about them and about us over and over and over again. Because somehow, the message is not getting through about who they are and what they [don't] deliver to the American people and who we are and how we are delivering and trying to support the things that most Americans want.

We need Lincoln Project level PR and Marketing on a nationwide scale. We need Rottweilers for truth and righteousness. Enough with the tact and diplomacy.

[onecaliberal]

33. We all need to mobilize now.

[dalton99a]

41. +1. This has nothing to do with committing illegal acts

[Kaleva]

50. So basically we'll continue to follow the rules which I recommend we all do.

[Kaleva]

35. Your own actions prove you play by the rules and will continue to do so.

You have no intention of breaking the law and risking jail time and/or fines.

Maybe you could be more specific as to what actions you are going to take?

[TeamProg]

37. +1 !!!

[Snackshack]

42. Yea.

Midterms are not too far away and silence is all I have heard from the Dems. Not 1 ad about anything concerning the upcoming election.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

48. They have rules, but they own the umpires

Supreme Court gives them six referees, Dems have three.

[Scrivener7]

59. This OP is a statement of the obvious. The replies show why it is necessary

to state the obvious. Also, many of them are either nutty or intentionally obnoxious.

Kick and rec.

[onecaliberal]

61. They want us to keep doing what we've always done.

How’s that working for us?

[hamsterjill]

76. And there are attempts within this thread

To get someone alerted by having a poster advocate breaking the laws.

I really wonder about those attempts on DU. What is the motivation for that? No one wants vigilanteism. But we want the laws on the books followed and punishment for those who break those laws. And that’s not happening to Trump and company right now.

[live love laugh]

64. It's not even the same game -- let alone rules. Keep up!

[onecaliberal]

72. 👆🏻❤️

[Stinky The Clown]

70. I agree with you. Ignore the weenies.

Weenies always gunna weenie.

[Kid Berwyn]

73. Absolutely. Corrupt news media aren't helping, either.

The Democrats' messaging problem, and how to fix it

WBUR On Point, January 21, 2022
Kimberly Atkins Stohr, Jonathan Chang

Excerpt…

Mike Murphy: “Republicans and Democrats look at politics differently. They have kind of different cataclysms in their communication strategy. If you go on any Democratic presidential website, campaign website [during the] last couple of cycles, you will see some sort of reputation of a lot of groups. Mark Lilla at Columbia has written a great book about this. And they see it as a confederation of groups, many of them with grievances. The Republicans tend to go for one big, bright shining thing. Shining city on a hill, Make America Great Again, one kind of unifying theme.

"And when the Democratic communications thing is all about our coalition, and our voters and frankly, treating primary voters like swing voters, it gets diffused. I mean, nobody knows what Build Back Better is. It sounds like a chain of chiropractors. The better and more time honored strategy, which I think President Biden is now retreating to — but I think it's a smart retreat — is break it up into bumper stickers people understand. Try to win one or two of them, and fight over the rest in the election year. Rather than look at this as a coalition politics thing where you've got to have a 300 page plan that each of your groups has 28 pages they love in, but nobody out in swing voter land, which is what counts in elections, can understand what you're talking about.

"So he's kind of been forced into better communication. I'd also say, don't forget the overall narrative. You know, we get into this issue stuff. The press covers Washington like the automotive news covers Detroit. It's all about steering wheels and executive reshuffles. Out there in voter land, it's pretty simple. What are they doing, if anything for me? And you know, that gets lost in the dance of legislation. And then it frankly doesn't get through.”

Continues…

https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2022/01/21/biden-democrat-problem-republican-messaging-politics

[onecaliberal]

74. The corrupted corporate press is always going to prefer the criminal party of (R)ussia.

[Kid Berwyn]

75. Swift Boaters

In 2004, I posted on a John Kerry campaign site that George Bush was the little turd from Crawford.

Someone at the campaign removed my post, explaining the Democrats do not want to be associated with calling the President a “turd.”

Of course, later that year, the Republicans would go on to label, shapeshift and ultimately define John Kerry as a liar, coward and traitor, all of which couldn’t be further from the truth. It was something that turds would do — and still do.