Leaving the USA? - pros and cons

[dwayneb]

These are purely my opinions and speculations. Hopefully I am wrong this time.

The United States here in 2022 is shifting toward autocracy and away from representative democracy.

It remains to be seen whether Democrats or Progressives can prevail in protecting our Constitutional freedoms and rights for free expression and for free and fair elections. Certainly we will lose the battle to protect abortion rights. Certainly we will lose the fight to prevent the degradation and corruption of our election systems. Most probably we will begin to see the erosion of our free speech and free assembly.

The most likely scenario for the USA 20 years hence will be something that looks like a crossbreed of Apartheid South Africa and modern day Russia. This is reality. Those that will vote to usher in this brave new world won't find out until far too late what they have given up. "You don't know what you've got till it's gone".

Recently, several of my friends and relatives have been making plans to leave the US, and move to other North American countries like Canada and Mexico.

Is anyone else considering this? Generally I think it's a foolish idea - because the trend toward Fascism is a worldwide phenomena, it's not just the USA. Is there some Utopia out there?

[JohnSJ]

1. I think the Ukrainians are the example we should follow. Better to fight than give up

[markie]

2. ...

[dwayneb]

8. What does that mean?

This isn't the same situation as Ukraine. It will be a lot more like Russia or China.

If the Fascist Right succeeds in gaining full control of our government here in the USA, it has the potential to be the most powerful totalitarian state in history. Enormous power to establish a police state that can crush any dissent or uprising.

Especially for those with families, I do understand the desire to get out while the getting is good. But the question is - where?

[JohnSJ]

11. It means you stay and you fight for what you believe in. You want to give up, then go

Thank goodness we had leaders in the Civil Rights movements, woman's rights, workers rights, etc. that didn't give up

[Lochloosa]

3. Belize.

https://internationalliving.com/countries/belize/

[bucolic_frolic]

4. Countries wanting to import Americans are about as eager

as young mail order brides wanting to marry old, fat, bald men.

So if you see a window, better get a move on before it closes.

[Celerity]

24. I would add 'countries that most on here would be willing to move to'.

[Magoo48]

5. From an earlier post....

3. Our unwillingness to be inconvenienced, to take direct action, to rise up when needs be

Last edited Tue May 3, 2022, 05:09 AM - Edit history (1)

will and has cost us more than voting rights. We will lose Roe and witness culturally regressive and oppressive laws burn holes in our social fabric, see the further nullification of wage increases through corporate gouging and greed, and see increasing pressure by Republican fascists across the board.

Our leaders will use tired and intentionally vague, ineffective laws to combat diseased social forces plowing ahead on the backs of monstrous waves of evangelical hoards who recognize no laws but the ones they place into the mouth of their God.

For whatever reason, we don’t act. Are we apathetic, weary, afraid, too Kool, or in denial so deep we can’t feel the earth moving beneath us? Who knows?

[2naSalit]

7. +1

[dwayneb]

12. 1/3 to 1/2 don't even bother to vote

This is the real reason why we are in the situation we are in today.

When 1/2 the population does not even bother to participate as they didn't in 2016, we have a problem.

[betsuni]

6. "Democrats or Progressives"? The Democratic Party is the progressive party.

[dwayneb]

9. Semantics

The question is - will they prevail in protecting our Constitutional freedoms here in the USA?

[betsuni]

10. Blame Democrats!

Why?

[dwayneb]

18. Not following this question

No one is "blaming" Democrats.

If we have to "blame" anyone - it's the 50% of voters that didn't even vote in 2016. And about 1/3 didn't vote in 2020.

Our Fascist enemies have taken full advantage of the apathy and lack of critical thinking skills of the American public.

[betsuni]

21. Then say that. Too many Americans think both sides are the same and have no idea how

government works.

[betsuni]

13. I don't live in the U.S. and it's always something. There is no utopia.

[dwayneb]

19. Yep my thoughts exactly

When my daughter talks about doing this that's what I tell her. We'll see if they follow through on it.

[Mister Ed]

14. It's just as you say: "the trend toward Fascism is a worldwide phenomenon, it's not just the USA."

It can't be fled. It must be fought.

[luv2fly]

15. Well if the whole world is going fascist...

Then personally I'll choose warm temperate fascism over freezing cold ass biting fascism.

[DFW]

17. You wouldn't even consider Lower Slobbovia? n/t

[dwayneb]

20. Ha ha good comment

This is exactly what it might come down to.

Sadly we may be making decisions about the flavor of fascism we choose to endure.

[Atticus]

16. The fact that abandoning the US is seen as an acceptable option says much about why we

are in trouble: cowardice is no longer embarrassing.

We may have admired the Poles in Gdansk and the Chinese in Tiananmen Square, but when asked to stand up to OUR aspiring autocratic monsters, it is ok to say "I'm outta here"?

NOT.

[PJMcK]

22. Spain

Or Portugal.

Google Golden Visa.

[dameatball]

23. Kids and grandkids aren't going anywhere. We have had this conversation, so I'll stick around.

At my age, if I ever move to another country, I doubt it would be for political reasons.

[Celerity]

26. If you have any sort of chronic health issue or issues that can be deemed to present a 'burden on

public health care system of sufficient measure', you can likely chalk off Canada, even if you are married to a Canadian citizen, or are the close (son/daughter or father/mother) relative of an actual Canadian citizen. They will not let you stay on a perm basis in most cases. This even includes Brits and other Commonwealth nations, unless there is a special programme in place.

[Celerity]

27. The very well run (politically) countries on the earth make up a very short list for me

ALL are going to be extremely hard to emigrate to (as an American) unless you are relatively young and have fairy specific skill set (as most all have openings only if you can work in a 'shortage defined' skilled placement)

Obviously ALL have large flaws, none are perfect, but all are overall better run politically from top to bottom (and many are far more diverse than the average American thinks, especially Sweden) IMHO than the US. All of these are also very expensive to live in for the most part.

In order of how well they are politically run:

New Zealand (Grey Lynn in Auckland is wonderful)

Switzerland (wide variety of choices, love Lausanne, love Zurich, big downside, CRAZY expensive)

Norway (Oslo is only city we would consider, as IF we wanted a smaller city, we would just stay in Sweden (in Sweden: Lund is great, Uppsala as well, superb small cities and both have ancient, world class unis) CRAZY expensive, but the wages are massive)

Denmark (Copenhagen FTW, Aarhus is wonderful (smaller) too)

Sweden (where I live) (would be number 3 except for our somewhat disastrous refugee policy from 2003-2015, which has allowed the far right Sweden Democrats a foothold in the Riksdag, our parliament, albeit with no true power as of yet, and hopefully that never changes)

Finland (the only nation on the list we would never consider moving to, as all the other Nordics offer a higher quality of life for us)

Canada (only place there we would consider moving to is Vancouver (CRAZY expensive see a trend? lolol), take that area away, and it's off the list)

The Netherlands (prefer Rotterdam to Amsterdam but both are superb)

Austria (Vienna is the only place we would live in there, it offers an astounding level in terms of quality of life)

Belgium (would be higher except they have such large issues with political dichotomous tensions between the Walloons & the Flemish, we love Antwerp over Brussels, but both are wonderful)

Australia (too RW at times to rate higher, but we adore Melbourne (we almost moved to St Kilda), and Sydney is great too, Perth is too isolated)