Tue May 3, 2022, 08:04 AM
dwayneb (599 posts)
Leaving the USA? - pros and cons
These are purely my opinions and speculations. Hopefully I am wrong this time.
The United States here in 2022 is shifting toward autocracy and away from representative democracy. It remains to be seen whether Democrats or Progressives can prevail in protecting our Constitutional freedoms and rights for free expression and for free and fair elections. Certainly we will lose the battle to protect abortion rights. Certainly we will lose the fight to prevent the degradation and corruption of our election systems. Most probably we will begin to see the erosion of our free speech and free assembly. The most likely scenario for the USA 20 years hence will be something that looks like a crossbreed of Apartheid South Africa and modern day Russia. This is reality. Those that will vote to usher in this brave new world won't find out until far too late what they have given up. "You don't know what you've got till it's gone". Recently, several of my friends and relatives have been making plans to leave the US, and move to other North American countries like Canada and Mexico. Is anyone else considering this? Generally I think it's a foolish idea - because the trend toward Fascism is a worldwide phenomena, it's not just the USA. Is there some Utopia out there?
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27 replies, 974 views
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Author | Time | Post |
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dwayneb | May 2022 | OP |
JohnSJ | May 2022 | #1 | |
markie | May 2022 | #2 | |
dwayneb | May 2022 | #8 | |
JohnSJ | May 2022 | #11 | |
Lochloosa | May 2022 | #3 | |
bucolic_frolic | May 2022 | #4 | |
Celerity | May 2022 | #24 | |
Magoo48 | May 2022 | #5 | |
2naSalit | May 2022 | #7 | |
dwayneb | May 2022 | #12 | |
betsuni | May 2022 | #6 | |
dwayneb | May 2022 | #9 | |
betsuni | May 2022 | #10 | |
dwayneb | May 2022 | #18 | |
betsuni | May 2022 | #21 | |
betsuni | May 2022 | #13 | |
dwayneb | May 2022 | #19 | |
Mister Ed | May 2022 | #14 | |
luv2fly | May 2022 | #15 | |
DFW | May 2022 | #17 | |
dwayneb | May 2022 | #20 | |
Atticus | May 2022 | #16 | |
PJMcK | May 2022 | #22 | |
dameatball | May 2022 | #23 | |
jfz9580m | May 2022 | #25 | |
Celerity | May 2022 | #26 | |
Celerity | May 2022 | #27 |
Response to dwayneb (Original post)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:08 AM
JohnSJ (84,671 posts)
1. I think the Ukrainians are the example we should follow. Better to fight than give up
Response to JohnSJ (Reply #1)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:20 AM
dwayneb (599 posts)
8. What does that mean?
This isn't the same situation as Ukraine. It will be a lot more like Russia or China.
If the Fascist Right succeeds in gaining full control of our government here in the USA, it has the potential to be the most powerful totalitarian state in history. Enormous power to establish a police state that can crush any dissent or uprising. Especially for those with families, I do understand the desire to get out while the getting is good. But the question is - where? |
Response to dwayneb (Reply #8)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:23 AM
JohnSJ (84,671 posts)
11. It means you stay and you fight for what you believe in. You want to give up, then go
Thank goodness we had leaders in the Civil Rights movements, woman's rights, workers rights, etc. that didn't give up
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Response to dwayneb (Original post)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:11 AM
bucolic_frolic (33,321 posts)
4. Countries wanting to import Americans are about as eager
as young mail order brides wanting to marry old, fat, bald men.
So if you see a window, better get a move on before it closes. |
Response to bucolic_frolic (Reply #4)
Tue May 3, 2022, 09:33 AM
Celerity (30,899 posts)
24. I would add 'countries that most on here would be willing to move to'.
Response to dwayneb (Original post)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:14 AM
Magoo48 (3,340 posts)
5. From an earlier post....
3. Our unwillingness to be inconvenienced, to take direct action, to rise up when needs be
Last edited Tue May 3, 2022, 05:09 AM - Edit history (1) will and has cost us more than voting rights. We will lose Roe and witness culturally regressive and oppressive laws burn holes in our social fabric, see the further nullification of wage increases through corporate gouging and greed, and see increasing pressure by Republican fascists across the board. Our leaders will use tired and intentionally vague, ineffective laws to combat diseased social forces plowing ahead on the backs of monstrous waves of evangelical hoards who recognize no laws but the ones they place into the mouth of their God. For whatever reason, we don’t act. Are we apathetic, weary, afraid, too Kool, or in denial so deep we can’t feel the earth moving beneath us? Who knows? |
Response to Magoo48 (Reply #5)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:24 AM
dwayneb (599 posts)
12. 1/3 to 1/2 don't even bother to vote
This is the real reason why we are in the situation we are in today.
When 1/2 the population does not even bother to participate as they didn't in 2016, we have a problem. |
Response to dwayneb (Original post)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:17 AM
betsuni (20,376 posts)
6. "Democrats or Progressives"? The Democratic Party is the progressive party.
Response to betsuni (Reply #6)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:21 AM
dwayneb (599 posts)
9. Semantics
The question is - will they prevail in protecting our Constitutional freedoms here in the USA?
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Response to dwayneb (Reply #9)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:23 AM
betsuni (20,376 posts)
10. Blame Democrats!
Why?
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Response to betsuni (Reply #10)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:48 AM
dwayneb (599 posts)
18. Not following this question
No one is "blaming" Democrats.
If we have to "blame" anyone - it's the 50% of voters that didn't even vote in 2016. And about 1/3 didn't vote in 2020. Our Fascist enemies have taken full advantage of the apathy and lack of critical thinking skills of the American public. |
Response to dwayneb (Reply #18)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:55 AM
betsuni (20,376 posts)
21. Then say that. Too many Americans think both sides are the same and have no idea how
government works.
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Response to dwayneb (Original post)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:24 AM
betsuni (20,376 posts)
13. I don't live in the U.S. and it's always something. There is no utopia.
Response to betsuni (Reply #13)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:50 AM
dwayneb (599 posts)
19. Yep my thoughts exactly
When my daughter talks about doing this that's what I tell her. We'll see if they follow through on it.
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Response to dwayneb (Original post)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:27 AM
Mister Ed (4,709 posts)
14. It's just as you say: "the trend toward Fascism is a worldwide phenomenon, it's not just the USA."
It can't be fled. It must be fought.
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Response to dwayneb (Original post)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:37 AM
luv2fly (2,283 posts)
15. Well if the whole world is going fascist...
Then personally I'll choose warm temperate fascism over freezing cold ass biting fascism.
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Response to luv2fly (Reply #15)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:47 AM
DFW (48,198 posts)
17. You wouldn't even consider Lower Slobbovia? n/t
Response to luv2fly (Reply #15)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:53 AM
dwayneb (599 posts)
20. Ha ha good comment
This is exactly what it might come down to.
Sadly we may be making decisions about the flavor of fascism we choose to endure. |
Response to dwayneb (Original post)
Tue May 3, 2022, 08:46 AM
Atticus (13,629 posts)
16. The fact that abandoning the US is seen as an acceptable option says much about why we
are in trouble: cowardice is no longer embarrassing.
We may have admired the Poles in Gdansk and the Chinese in Tiananmen Square, but when asked to stand up to OUR aspiring autocratic monsters, it is ok to say "I'm outta here"? NOT. |
Response to dwayneb (Original post)
Tue May 3, 2022, 09:04 AM
PJMcK (18,781 posts)
22. Spain
Or Portugal.
Google Golden Visa. |
Response to dwayneb (Original post)
Tue May 3, 2022, 09:30 AM
dameatball (6,920 posts)
23. Kids and grandkids aren't going anywhere. We have had this conversation, so I'll stick around.
At my age, if I ever move to another country, I doubt it would be for political reasons.
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Response to dwayneb (Original post)
jfz9580m This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to dwayneb (Original post)
Tue May 3, 2022, 09:41 AM
Celerity (30,899 posts)
26. If you have any sort of chronic health issue or issues that can be deemed to present a 'burden on
public health care system of sufficient measure', you can likely chalk off Canada, even if you are married to a Canadian citizen, or are the close (son/daughter or father/mother) relative of an actual Canadian citizen. They will not let you stay on a perm basis in most cases. This even includes Brits and other Commonwealth nations, unless there is a special programme in place.
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Response to dwayneb (Original post)
Tue May 3, 2022, 09:57 AM
Celerity (30,899 posts)
27. The very well run (politically) countries on the earth make up a very short list for me
ALL are going to be extremely hard to emigrate to (as an American) unless you are relatively young and have fairy specific skill set (as most all have openings only if you can work in a 'shortage defined' skilled placement)
Obviously ALL have large flaws, none are perfect, but all are overall better run politically from top to bottom (and many are far more diverse than the average American thinks, especially Sweden) IMHO than the US. All of these are also very expensive to live in for the most part. In order of how well they are politically run: New Zealand (Grey Lynn in Auckland is wonderful) Switzerland (wide variety of choices, love Lausanne, love Zurich, big downside, CRAZY expensive) Norway (Oslo is only city we would consider, as IF we wanted a smaller city, we would just stay in Sweden (in Sweden: Lund is great, Uppsala as well, superb small cities and both have ancient, world class unis) CRAZY expensive, but the wages are massive) Denmark (Copenhagen FTW, Aarhus is wonderful (smaller) too) Sweden (where I live) (would be number 3 except for our somewhat disastrous refugee policy from 2003-2015, which has allowed the far right Sweden Democrats a foothold in the Riksdag, our parliament, albeit with no true power as of yet, and hopefully that never changes) Finland (the only nation on the list we would never consider moving to, as all the other Nordics offer a higher quality of life for us) Canada (only place there we would consider moving to is Vancouver (CRAZY expensive see a trend? lolol), take that area away, and it's off the list) The Netherlands (prefer Rotterdam to Amsterdam but both are superb) Austria (Vienna is the only place we would live in there, it offers an astounding level in terms of quality of life) Belgium (would be higher except they have such large issues with political dichotomous tensions between the Walloons & the Flemish, we love Antwerp over Brussels, but both are wonderful) Australia (too RW at times to rate higher, but we adore Melbourne (we almost moved to St Kilda), and Sydney is great too, Perth is too isolated) |