The problem of our military worshipping culture

[quinnox]

It was interesting to see so many violent reactions in another thread about a military tradition of an honor guard, and how many people were aghast that some were not properly respectful and admiring of our great military and its grand heroes. Even supposed left leaning Democrats were sounding a bit right winger-ish, tossing around terms like "unpatriotic" and so on for the apparently unpardonable sin that some posters didn't seem to feel awe and reverence for the pomp and ceremony of a military tradition.

This worship of all things military seems deeply ingrained into our culture, with this theme pounded into our psyche almost daily. I always remember what I find to be a particularly repellent commercial/public service message that seems to play often around Christmas, where in an airport some soldiers are walking through, apparently having just got off a plane, and spontaneous applause breaks out and spreads among the regular citizens who are in the airport and notice the soldiers. I just find this eye-rolling in its blatant propagandist message personally.

By putting this concept of {military = patriotism and heroes} implanted so deep into the people, we of course are much more likely to support wars and military action, because after all, you have to support the troops, right? If you don't then you are just being a low-life and must hate America, or so the thinking and messaging goes. It's even a bit insidious how this all works, in my humble opinion. Anyones' opinions on this topic are welcome.

[DonViejo]

1. When you learn the difference between the words "worship" and

"honor" we might have something to discuss. Until you do, we have nothing to chat about.

[k8conant]

4. I agree with OP that the culture tends to worship the military and the flag

but I also know that many people do honor both as shown in your post and those of others.

[ronnie624]

19. Why blindly honor the participants in wars of aggression?

Most US military deployments have been for the purpose of expanding and maintaining strategic and economic dominance. Often, the rationalizations have rested on lies and conspiracy. Not that any of this is the fault of individual soldiers, but 'honoring' any part of US aggression, is not for me. Any form of the 'support the troops' nonsense, is an attempt to manipulate public opinion with patriotism and intimidation.

'Honoring' anything, as a result of faith and ignorance is, by definition, worship.

[sibelian]

62. Warfare and the armed forces are not the same thing.

This concept seems elusive to some.

[argiel1234]

68. ?

who do you think does the fighting, the Peace Corps?

[sibelian]

92. As you are clearly labouring under the misapprehension

that soldiers choose the wars they fight, it seems pointless to continue discussing this subject with you.

[argiel1234]

96. The United States military

is a volunteer service. People are not forced to sign up for it. Soldiers, by voluntarily enlisting, agree to fight whatever wars the 1% have in mind. If they didnt enlist, this would be a moot issue.

These are not mindless children who join up and then become robots who innocently do whatever they are told.

[stevenleser]

113. You still don't get it. No one volunteers to fight. They volunteer to serve. And...

to get money for college because most cant get it other ways.

Instead of attacking fellow 99%ers, perhaps you might want to turn your attention to those who actually make the decisions to go to war and use those who volunteer for the military as fodder.

[argiel1234]

118. No

you do not volunteer in the military unless you are brain dead not knowing you will likely be called to fight.
People "serve" as firefighters, teachers, engineers, etc every god-damn day.

There is nothing more "honorable" about being a willing volunteer in the military than any other occupation

And if men and women are signing up for the college education, that screams of a serious fucking problem with our priorities as a nation. The "people" who make the decision to go to war is called the Commander in Chief with approval from Congress, and they are all equally culpable, yet none are held to account.

Please stop equating the military with the 99% anymore than cops

They both take positions of power and control willingly and voluntarily and often abuse that position of authority

Im no purity subsriber


I get it just fine

[stevenleser]

120. Yes, and I know because I enlisted and know the folks I served with.

Did you enlist or commission? Are you saying this from experience or just supposition?

I can bet what the answer will be.

You have no idea what you are talking about. This is all made up stuff from what you think based on supposition.

[argiel1234]

127. No, let me educate you

When you enlist, you are given a service weapon, usually automatic.
You also receive pistol/knife training
You receive hand to hand combat training
You receive counter guerilla combat techniques

You are expected to follow all orders, without question in almost all cases


I dont need to have "served" to tell you this.

I have family, including a grandfather who was an Army sniper and a cousin who is a Merchant Marine

They would both tell you they would not want honored, as they consider themselves as having done a job.

In fact they have been embarrassed when people come up to them and gush about their "service"




when you get an automatic weapon and combat training and then tell me with a straight face that its just serving, I question your sincerity

[stevenleser]

130. See, you are wrong. No, I was not issued a weapon of any kind. You make assumptions galore.

During my entire time in the military, I was never issued a weapon. I spent one day in basic training getting a very basic (no pun intended) familiarity with the M-16. Its the last time I touched a weapon during my enlistment.

I was assigned to civil engineering, learned CADD, and spent my enlistment updating CADD drawings of an installation.

This underscores the horribly incorrect assumptions you spout about the military.

You really know nothing about it at all.

On edit: AND by the way, we are not expected to follow all orders. Far from it.

We had a four hour class to make sure we understood which orders we were NOT to follow.

Again. You would never know that because instead of educating yourself, you spout assumptions.

[argiel1234]

132. Im assuming you were talking about the E level enlistees

who actually do the fighting.

Sounds like you were an Officer or higher.

Sorry but redirection wont help. My posts stand and are free to be read by everyone here to see

You did not address any of my points

[stevenleser]

134. I enlisted and started at lowest rank like everyone else. You do not know what you are talking about

Your posts are riddled with incorrect assumptions.

[argiel1234]

135. If you enlisted at the lowest rank

you did a whole lot more than basically touch an M-16 and virtually no training. Doesnt matter what branch of the service. I know and have worked with/family...people who voluntarily enlisted and they got MUCH more than that.

The point is you are trying to redirect the conversation and its not going to happen....please see post #118 everyone

[stevenleser]

140. No, I didnt do any more than that. Enlistees in the Air Force and Navy are not ground fighters.

With the exception of the special forces outfits within those services.

I dont know how I can say this to get through to you.

STOP MAKING ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THINGS YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT

[argiel1234]

143. you are right

often they become drone pilots who like to bomb people 1000's of miles away from a computer.

why dont you respond to post #118 which I pointed out to everybody?

When you respond like an adult to post #118, I will consider responding further

[stevenleser]

144. No, again you are wrong. Air force and navy enlistees do not pilot drones.

Nice try though

[argiel1234]

146. your right again, when enlistees graduate to Officers and higher

then they get to pilot drones

You seem to be an expert at changing the topic and obsfucation.

Im sure that was in the training as well


seriously, who do you think your bullshitting?

[stevenleser]

148. You're attempt to talk about things you dont know is becoming Palinesque

Enlistees do not 'graduate to officers' they stay enlistees. A very small amount, less than one percent attempt to qualify for and enter commissioning programs.

[argiel1234]

153. then pray tell, stevenleser, answer post #118

since you said you started out as a E-1 and how you barely touched a weapon and had little/no training, yet you somehow became an expert?

You still have not addressed #118 post.

You seem to lack the ability to answer a simple post, yet you have military CADD design experience.

[stevenleser]

157. I already answered post 118. What didnt you like about my response. A marine has also weighed in and

explained it. DevonRex is army. She can also respond to you.

Fact is, you do not know what you are talking about. You know so little, you dont even know what you dont know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

204. CLueless does not start to describe it

I was a mustang in another military. (go look the term up), and shockingly as a medic I never touched even a side arm

Oh the bayonet I used, in rescue mind you, was surplus.

[sarisataka]

141. It is quite surprising

how little weapons training many military members receive.

As a Marine I received extensive weapons training though not technically in a combat specialty. Meeting members of other services many had not touched a weapon since basic training. I do not know if it is still the case but the Air Force did not actually require everyone to shoot an M-16, they had other options.

I was tapped to help train National Guard soldiers deploying to SW Asia as they barely knew how to handle M-16s and had never touched the machine guns that would be on their trucks.

[stevenleser]

154. Air Force basic training has gone through several iterations in the past 40 years

When I enlisted in 1989, it was six weeks long and only half a day was spent on basic familiarity with the M-16.

A few years later, it was extended to eight weeks long and if I am not mistaken, an entire week is spent in the field, eating rations, learning basic maneuvers and firing weapons, etc.

Still, after that, you are done. You were not issued a weapon after training unless you are one of the small percentage of folks deployed to a forward area. This may have changed since 2003 with many more people deployed to Asia Minor. The percentages of USAF personnel who had weapons issued to them during an assignment has gone up, I'm sure. But it still is far from a large percentage.

[sarisataka]

160. That matches what I had heard

I believe 5 rounds from a pistol or .22 rifle was all that was needed. There was no scoring unless you wanted a ribbon. MP's, FAC's and SF were the only ones that actually carried weapons.

For all the <doo doo> we gave flyboys, an A-10 coming in low and slow is a beautiful sight when you are pinned

[cherokeeprogressive]

149. So... your cousin is a Merchant Marine. Does he know the words to "The Halls of Montezuma"?

I'm sure he's doing a fine fine job with that automatic weapon he was given, as well as the pistol and knife training he recieved when he enlisted. How did he do with his hand-to-hand combat training? I bet he was a standout... I bet his training in counter guerilla combat techniques went well also.

He really shouldn't be embarrassed though, when people come up to him and gush about his "service". Lots of us sleep a little better each night, warm under the blanket of security the Merchant Marines provides us with. Tell him to stand tall as those people gush about his service with the M&M's. He's earned the right to be gushed upon.

This veteran is proud to know he's out there on the fenceline with the rest of the Merchant Marines.

[argiel1234]

156. answer post #118

you cant.

and yes my cousin is in the MM's

try and answer the post.

YOU CAN'T

[stevenleser]

158. I already answered 118 above. nt

[argiel1234]

162. this is going nowhere

your basic response to everything seems to be I dont know anything and you try to be insulting as much as you can get away with.


You refuse to answer the post.

your lack of response stands out all on its own for all to see in this thread.

Also I dont know who Devon Rex is and why this is relevant, but maybe you think ganging up on me will shut me up.

You would be mistaken

by the way, I dont put anyone on ignore and will confront propaganda(in general) as I see it

[stevenleser]

168. Because you refuse to listen to the people who have actual experience in favor of your assumptions.

Once you break yourself of that, you might be able to take the truth in on this.

[sarisataka]

169. In WW2

the MM was a 5th service. The Liberty ships were prime targets for U-boats and most were armed to fight back against any surfaced sub. Of approximately 250,000 that served over 9500 were killed and another 11,000 wounded.

These days it is a less hazardous profession. I do not believe any weapon training is involved, though due to piracy I could believe at least some do receive training to repel boarders

[argiel1234]

172. .

respond to post #118

[sarisataka]

173. Enlighten me

what is the question you want answered? I will reply

[argiel1234]

174. you win

diverted a thread of importance

non answers and diversion..

[sarisataka]

177. Forgive me, I am old school

I see several statements and opinions in your post but no actual question.

My request is simple- give me a direct question, I will give you a direct answer.


Edit- dinner time, I'll check back in about 20 minutes

[sarisataka]

186. So may I assume you don't actually have a question? n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

178. Post 118 doesn't ask a fucking question. But you tell your Merchant Marine cousin we're thankful

for his service anyway.

[argiel1234]

180. He is a Merchant Marine

Im not thankful for his job anymore than he is thankful than my service at my job


sickening jingoism


want to honor my service?
will you be thankful for my duties I perform?

fucking sickening

[kentuck]

155. I believe they take an oath to defend the Constitution...

Not the oil companies or the 1% or any Leader?

[Posteritatis]

44. "worship" = "liking or respecting something I dislike," in DU-ese.

If I see the term outside of a religious context I usually assume the person using it has no real interest in a discussion.

[Robb]

2. If it is too complicated for you, I understand.

But it is entirely possible to despise war and still recognize and appreciate sacrifices warriors make.

[FSogol]

50. +1. Well said. n/t

[hrmjustin]

181. Yes well said.

[AsahinaKimi]

3. I volunteer at a VA

Hospital on weekends. Its the LEAST I could do for those who come back from a terrible situation. My mother's brother, like her was born in South Korea, where civilians are expected to serve a mandatory two years. He was killed while on duty. He was the only family I had who actually served in the military other than a Grandfather who was killed during the Second World War, and yes, He served the Emperor. I will not go into details about him, and my family don't talk much about what he did.

I could have chosen to have volunteered to to into the service but chose to go to the University. My girlfriend is a former US Marine who was hurt during her stint in the Marines, and refuses to use the VA facilities because she thinks she would be "mooching off the US Tax payer". I have tried to convince her, that is why the Veterans Administration is there, to help Vets, but she shakes it off and says there are far more Veterans deserving than she is..

Who put these ideas in her head I don't know, but I can't get her to even consider getting help.

Veterans are important to me... and I appreciate everyone of them.

[Lucinda]

89. Thank you for doing that.

[stevenleser]

112. This veteran appreciates that you do that.

[pinboy3niner]

191. Thankyou, AsahinaKimi

When I was hospitalized for 18 months for my wounds from Vietnam, visitors meant a lot.

[sarisataka]

5. From the other side

It was interesting to see so many violent reactions in another thread about a military tradition of an honor guard, and how many people were aghast that some were not properly respectful and admiring of our great military and its grand heroes. Even supposed left leaning Democrats were sounding a bit right winger-ish, tossing around terms like "unpatriotic" and so on for the apparently unpardonable sin that some posters didn't seem to feel awe and reverence for the pomp and ceremony of a military tradition.

It was also interesting to see how many went out of their way to make unnecessary, venomous comments and broad brush condemnations of anyone who would join the military or in any way respect those who do.

This worship of all things military seems deeply ingrained into our culture, with this theme pounded into our psyche almost daily. I always remember what I find to be a particularly repellent commercial/public service message that seems to play often around Christmas, where in an airport some soldiers are walking through, apparently having just got off a plane, and spontaneous applause breaks out and spreads among the regular citizens who are in the airport and notice the soldiers. I just find this eye-rolling in its blatant propagandist message personally.

If the country is so lock-step military worshiping, how come less than 1% actually are in the military. I also believe the total number of vets is less than 10% now. Shouldn't recruiters have people lined up around the block to join?

By putting this concept of {military = patriotism and heroes} implanted so deep into the people, we of course are much more likely to support wars and military action, because after all, you have to support the troops, right? If you don't then you are just being a low-life and must hate America, or so the thinking and messaging goes. It's even a bit insidious how this all works, in my humble opinion. Anyones' opinions on this topic are welcome.

I disagree that it causes people to support military action more. Many recognize that the majority of those who join the military are patriotic. They believe in the principles the country was founded on. Unlike 99% of the population they are willing to step up and lay their life on the line to defend those principles.
Does that mean people who do not join are unpatriotic-no
Does it mean that police, firemen, teachers, aid workers etc. do not also face risks and do not also give service to the country-no
Has the trust the military places in the civilian leadership been abused and they have been sent into dubious conflicts-yes

Is it fair to single out those who have chosen this career, be it for 2 years, 30 years or until death, and ridicule the respect they have for those who have gone before... to heap derision upon them for bad choices made by politicians... to drop them all into a stereotype bucket that if applied to other groups would bring out a mob of condemnation and accusations of racism, sexism, classism and many other 'isms'...
That is for you to answer to yourself...

For myself, proud to have served, proud of my brothers and sisters who carry on. I accept them knowing the near superhuman courage and potential some have and acknowledging the all to human faults and shortcomings they have.

[quinnox]

7. thank you for the response

Even though I disagree with much of it, at least you were civil in your post.

[sarisataka]

8. I may disagree with your opinion...

but will fight to the death your right to speak it.

And we vote the same...

[stevenleser]

116. Semper Fi, marine

from a former blue suiter...

[Lionessa]

6. And I see some still aren't reading but reacting to what you wrote.

I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately trying to have a discussion with those you reference and who are already upon the thread, is like trying to discuss pro-choice to anti-choicers. They have one response only, they are seemingly incapable of hearing anything that is broader than "pro-abortion" to which they react viscerally even when that's not exactly what's being discussed at all.

Here you are not saying they shouldn't be honored, you're saying that honor shouldn't be bordering on or clearly shown as "worship" and shouldn't be demanded. But they can't read that, they choose to only hear their own internal worshiping being threatened.

[quinnox]

9. I think you are right in that observation

Not sure why, but it seems to be hard to talk about this issue with some people, except for the poster above, sarisataka, who did put some thought into their reply, and I appreciated that.

[mythology]

176. You start out insulting people who disagree with you

and then lament that they aren't civil as you'd like?

[glacierbay]

10. There was no worshipping, it was honoring them

you would do well to learn the difference.

[TransitJohn]

69. but why do they deserve more honor than artists or truckdrivers?

That's the argument. It's the same as with the cop defenders.

[msanthrope]

76. Because they took an oath to die defending the Constitution. And they did. nt

[TransitJohn]

100. And I took an oath to always be irreverent. Accord me the same special honor.

Eom

[Lightbulb_on]

128. You may have succeeded but it hasn't benefitted the populace at large...

You have benefited from the presence of the US Armed Forces...

[TransitJohn]

188. How?

I defy you to tell me how I, personally, have benefited from the presence of War, Inc.

[Lightbulb_on]

193. As stated below...

... If the entire US armed forces magically vanished tomorrow, how long do you think it would be before someone else came in and started making changes in your life?

You benefit from the very existence of the military.

Additionally, you have benefitted from the actions of the military from a historical standpoint. Land acquisition, politics, economics etc... have been and continue to be influenced by the strength of our armed forces.

I could go on but I'll let you digest that for a bit.

[EX500rider]

195. "I defy you to tell me how I, personally, have benefited from the presence of War, Inc"

You aren't speaking German, Japanese or Russian?

[Lightbulb_on]

218. *check check*

This thing on?

[Llewlladdwr]

150. Let us know when your "oath" requires you to sacrifice your life. nt

[TransitJohn]

187. No roll eyes big enough.

it's just a job they signed up for.

[pinboy3niner]

192. Yeah, it's just like any other job...

,,,where people are shooting at you and you watch your friends cut down by small arms fire in the prime of life.

No different from any other job involving sucking chest wounds and traumatic amputations.

Just the routine shit that artists and truckdrivers deal with every day.

[TransitJohn]

208. So it's the violence that you venerate. I see. n/t

eom

[eqfan592]

217. So it's the jaw dropping ignorance that you venerate I see. (Nt)

[Union Scribe]

199. So let's honor those people MORE, not soldiers LESS!

It isn't either/or. You don't have to drag one down to raise up the other. Those soldiers come from the same class as the truck drivers, the same working families.

[MicaelS]

11. Have you ever read Kipling's poem "Tommy"?

If not I suggest you read it. Maybe you will get a deeper understanding.

And IMLHO, as a middle-aged man, the reason the Democratic Party is still held in contempt by so many people in the 50s and older, is due DIRECTLY to the actions of the Anti-Vietnam War movement, the riots at the 1968 Democratic National Convention, and the nomination of George McGovern as the Democratic Presidential candidate back in 1972.

You can be anti-war all you want, but when you start calling our soldiers "baby-killers" as was done back during Vietnam, it's no surprise that people hate what you stand for.

http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/tommy.html

Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

[newspeak]

29. well, i'm from the vietnam era

we had the draft and some of my school friends found themselves in vietnam. the media hype about those disrespecting the soldiers got more attention and neutralized the protests against the war.

one of my friends was on the front lines, he saw things that when he came back, he never saluted the flag again. he saw bodies-men, women, children-stacked like fire wood after being burned to a crisp.

many of our democratic congresscritters were honored wearing the flag pin-there were way more democrats than repugs wearing them before 9/11. after 9/11, little boots basically allowed any chickenhawk to wear it.

i do not disrespect our soldiers, my daughter just got out of the military and my SIL is still in-has been to iraq and afghanistan. however, i do agree with gen. smedley butler "war is a racket." our government has put our soldiers in harms way for what they "hype" as threat; but the real reason is nothing more than business interest. and the heinous acts (the death squads) are not worth losing our (american soldiers, the american people) our honor and what we are supposed to stand for. you cannot cry "democracy" and supplant a democratically elected leader for a tyrannical dictator just so certain business interests in this country are served.

the soldiers serve their country; the politicians serve their greed and interest. and mcgovern, who served honorably was right to get us out of a damn boondoggle.

[ieoeja]

55. Something more recent: Hero of War by Rise Against

He said, "Son, have you seen the world?
Well, what would you say if I said that you could?
Just carry this gun, you'll even get paid"
I said, "That sounds pretty good"

Black leather boots, spit shined so bright
They cut off my hair but it looks alright
We marched and we sang
We all became friends as we learned how to fight

A hero of war, yeah that's what I'll be
And when I come home they'll be damn proud of me
I'll carry this flag to the grave if I must
'Cause it's flag that I love and a flag that I trust

I kicked in the door, I yelled my commands
The children they cried but I got my man
We took him away, a bag over his face
From his family and his friends

They took off his clothes, they pissed in his hands
I told them to stop but then I joined in
We beat him with guns and batons
Not just once but again and again

A hero of war, yeah that's what I'll be
And when I come home they'll be damn proud of me
I'll carry this flag to the grave if I must
'Cause it's flag that I love and a flag that I trust

She walked through bullets and haze
I asked her to stop, I begged her to stay
But she pressed on
So I lifted my gun and I fired away

And the shells jumped through the smoke
And into the sand that the blood now had soaked
She collapsed with a flag in her hand
A flag white as snow

A hero of war is that what they see
Just medals and scars, so damn proud of me
And I brought home that flag, now it gathers dust
But it's a flag that I love, it's the only flag I trust

He said, "Son, have you seen the world?
Well, what would you say if I said that you could?"

[white_wolf]

182. I love that song. Great band in general.

[warrprayer]

121. this ^^^^^^^ x 1000 n/t

[Enrique]

197. I would like to point out that no one called anyone baby killers

what happened is that the Army's propaganda office posted a photo and a very small minority of DU posters were not impressed by it, and this lack of 100% reverence for the photo became a hugh scandal. Very dysfunctional imho for DU.

[leftstreet]

12. Democrats will be antiwar in 2016 n/t

[msanthrope]

13. Mock a gravesite, see what you get. You may have the most important

point in the world about military worship, but when you try to make that point over a picture of a gravesite, it is going to get lost.

If you want to critique The Old Guard, my suggestion is that you don't do it using a picture of a gravesite, or of them performing their duties at Dover A.F.B.

It's crass, and inappropriate, and inopportune. That you have the right to do so is undeniable--that you have the wisdom to forbear pressing your point at a gravesite is preferable.

[sabrina 1]

17. But mock this guy, and you'll have lots of company:

The whole thing is a farce. Few Americans really give a damn about the actual, REAL soldiers, especially AFTER they are back from the 'glorious' wars and suffering the awful effects of them.

[msanthrope]

22. Not on DU you won't. I'm not sure why you using this man in this manner,

but I am sure you have a point, somewhere.

[sabrina 1]

26. Better question, 'what is YOUR point'? DU is not the country, it is a miniscule

part of this country. Sorry you missed the point.

[msanthrope]

34. What is your point, Sabrina, that you are making with homeless veterans? nt

[sabrina 1]

38. I asked you a question. Why are there so many

homeless veterans in a country that claims to honor its soldiers?

We do NOT worship the military. We USE them and then discard them. The question is why?

[msanthrope]

51. No--I asked you a question, first. What are you doing for the men whose pictures you

thought to use?

[sabrina 1]

54. What is the US Government doing for those men? And why do they use

the troops to get support for their wars, wars that profit people like Cheney, what eg, has HE ever done for the troops, and then neglect them when they come home?

Apparently this question is too difficult for you to answer.

[msanthrope]

63. You are the one who used their pictures. Tell us what you are doing for these men, that you thought

it okay to use them as a moral lesson to us all.

[newspeak]

59. i'm with you sabrina

"why are there so many homeless veterans in a country that claims to honor its' soldiers?" and it seems that the government has been willing to discard them after their use was over. remember after WWI?

who really disrespects the soldiers? after all, kissenger once stated that they were nothing but cannon fodder--the questions is "for who's benefit?"

[stevenleser]

117. The answer is simple. Republicans don't care about funding help for veterans when they come home.

Republicans are happy to vote to spend all kinds of money on the military to have new weapons and more people on active duty, but they wont spend any money at all for veterans services.

Democrats try, but are continuously fought on that.

[Hugabear]

46. Who said anything about mocking a gravesite?

Just because someone doesn't believe in putting the military on a pedestal, doesn't mean they are mocking them.

[msanthrope]

49. Perhaps you missed the original thread? It centered around a gravesite. nt

[Hugabear]

52. I read the OP. How is it mocking anything?

I didn't see anything in the OP remotely mocking the gravesite or anything military.

Unless you consider failure to participate in what the OP calls "worship" to be mockery.

[sibelian]

64. "Mocking" is probably wrong.

"Revealing a soul-crushing and total disinterest in the humbling fate of ordinary people of the past who were required to sacrifice themselves, doubtless strongly again their own wishes, for a good greater than themselves, although they were human and therefore unquestionably deserved better" would be more appropriate.

[msanthrope]

65. This--it's the utter lack of empathy that astounds me. nt

[Bladian]

67. It shows a lack of empathy because people are worried about the living, not the dead?

I'm sorry, but I actually can't comprehend that.

[msanthrope]

73. Worried about the living? What in their posts indicated to you

worry for the living? I only read the same, empty "far left" talking points that fail to take into account actual people.

[sabrina 1]

103. So it's the 'far left' that is the problem to you? Not the Far Right

like all the chickenhawks who constantly use the troops but care nothing for them at all while doing all they can to keep themselves and their kids out of the wars they send other people's children to?

Why am I not surprised. The 'left' is always the problem!! To the Right ...

[msanthrope]

114. Sabrina, the far right isn't on this board, mocking a gravesite. When they

are, or when you produce a freeper thread that does so, I'll be sure to comment.

[sabrina 1]

147. I don't see anyone mocking a gravesite. I see people questioning how it honors

those who sign up to protect their country to send them to illegitimate wars, to put them in harms way in wars that were based on lies, then throw them away when they are no longer useful. I saw Bush/Cheney use military imagery to pretend they honored those who serve knowing full well that they themselves did all they could to avoid any such service themselves.

I saw enough of Cheney and Bush and Limbaugh et al, USING the troops to emotionally manipulate the American people into supporting their illegal invasions of other people's countries to make me skeptical about those who profess so often how much they honor the troops. Those who really honor them do NOT support sending them to die for wars based on lies.

I saw them disrespect the Military for eight long years but never once saw them support those who came home and ended up on the streets. Because seeing the actual results of their criminal enterprises isn't all that inspiring so we will never see the Bush/Cheneys of this world standing next to a homeless Veteran.

Better to hide those pictures of the soldiers after they served their country, right?

[msanthrope]

163. I'm unsurprised by what you don't see. nt

[sabrina 1]

170. And you have had so much opportunity to enlighten me, but for some reason

you have consistently failed to do so! Don't worry, I see way more than you think, or maybe not!

[ieoeja]

57. I did not see one post mocking the gravesite.

I saw lots of posts saying they should take the guards in.

I saw lots of posts, like this OP, which said they believe all the ceremony is dangerous to the American psyche.

I even saw pots which thought all the pomp and circumstance seemed childish and silly.

But I did not read a single post mocking the gravesite. I read lots of posts accusing others of doing so. But I never saw any posts that did.

[msanthrope]

60. You should read more carefully. The OP wrote a post

that was amazingly offensive, indicating that the soldiers should feel "foolish," and what they were doing was "peculiar."

I won't address the mindblowing factual assertion said poster made in that post, because I think that speaks for itself....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1659236

[ieoeja]

70. "Soldiers should feel foolish". "It is peculiar."

I did say some find all the pomp and circumstance childish and silly. But I do not read anything in these statements mocking the tomb. Mocking the pomp and circumstance, yes. But not the tomb.

[msanthrope]

74. Right. Not mocking it, just near it. Okay. nt

[DevonRex]

107. Amen. And using it to further their little agenda is disgusting. Nt

[Green_Lantern]

14. how is America any different from other nations on this?

Practically every nation honors its military.

[quinnox]

16. true, its a common pattern around the world but

I feel the USA is particularly emphatic and its on a very high level in the deepness its embedded into our culture.

[Green_Lantern]

27. it is probably because from day one the US military

Has been made of citizen soldiers and remains part of civil society. They aren't just some aloof arm of the state.

[treestar]

31. It supposedly was not during Vietnam, so maybe some of today's

is an attempt to make up for that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. And you'd be wrong

Just south of the border the military is one of the most respected institutions as revealed by polling. The US, not so much.

[sabrina 1]

28. It is different. Most countries respect their military but they do not

worship them. Actually as I said elsewhere in this thread, we don't really care much about them either. We just 'worship' the imagery.

[Green_Lantern]

33. I really don't think we worship military....

Except hardcore conservatives.

[sabrina 1]

42. I agree. I am not sure of the numbers, but I doubt that most other countries

have the numbers of homeless veterans we have in this country. The 'worship' is for imagery, to get support for sending soldiers to wars we do not need to fight. Which is why it is so disturbing, imo. After they get back, no one cares much about them, least of Republicans who are at the forefront of the 'worship' usually.

[Green_Lantern]

53. We have less than a million homeless vets....

And only 22% of vets are homeless.

I'd rather we honor than pity them.

[sabrina 1]

56. I'd rather we honor them too. Neglecting them is not exactly honoring them. One

homeless veteran is one too many. That % you mention translates into tens of thousands of Veterans btw.

[TheKentuckian]

211. ONLY 22%!?!

That is a travesty and a national shame.

Caring for them would trump phony ass "honor" or sadsack pity.

[Union Scribe]

200. I saw no one on DU worshipping them.

I saw people who respected men who volunteered to be honor guards for their fallen predecessors.

[sabrina 1]

209. I am not talking about that ceremony which I happen to think is very

moving and always have. I am talking about the political exploitation of the honorable motives of the men and women who join the military in order to get public support to send them into their unnecessary wars. The jingoism we saw during the selling of the Iraq War. The appeal to emotions by using them and their dedication to protecting their country, as Bush/Cheney did eg, while not caring one bit about them, about their safety, and certainly not about what happens to them when they have no more use for them.

But we hear plenty of phony 'support the troops' nonsense from the chickenhawks on Faux and elsewhere.

They do not support the troops, they support war-for-profit.

[Marr]

93. Not really. In most of the countries I've been to,

people in the military receive about the same level of regard as auto mechanics or fishermen. It's just another job. If you were to refer to servicemen collectively as "heroes" in most places, they'd look at you very funny.

[sabrina 1]

106. That's been my experience also. And yet they mostly take far better care

of their veterans, and their citizens in general. Eg, I don't think they have the numbers of homeless veterans we have in this country. According to some statistics I have read, British veterans make up only approx 6% of their homeless population as compared to 25% here in the US. And there are many services available to help those who end up homeless.

I haven't checked the numbers in other countries.

[sabrina 1]

15. The worship of the military is very limited. It is phony, it is for the

theatrics only.

But when it comes to providing for those who served, who were injured, whose lives were destroyed either physically and/or emotionally, suddenly they become invisible.

I prefer to ignore the pomp and circumstance which really does nothing for actual soldiers and their families, and spend that energy on trying to help the homeless vets I see on the streets here every day.

Most people pass them by, many of those same people probably cry when they see the flag draped, uniformed images of our 'warriors' overcome by feelings of patriotism.

But I know for a fact that the reality of the lives of so many of those who have served has little to do with those images and that for the most part few people actually care about them.

As former Sen. Alan Simpson said:

'They were heroes when they were serving their countries, but now they are not helping by collecting their benefits' (paraphrased)

That is the true sentiment of this country towards the troops. The rest is propaganda.

Everyone was so angry with him when he said that, but he was actually stating what vast numbers of our elected officials and the public REALLY think of the military. They like the patriotic photos but not the reality.

I will believe they are honoring the troops when I see them getting emotional over all the homeless, disabled vets.

How often do we see THESE photos asking us to honor military veterans?










http://steelturman.typepad.com/thesteeldeal/2007/11/homeless-vetera.html|

1 in 4 Homeless are Veterans

"When the Vietnam War ended, that was part of the problem. The war was over, it was off TV, nobody wanted to hear about it," said John Keaveney, a Vietnam veteran and a founder of New Directions in Los Angeles, which provides substance abuse help, job training and shelter to veterans.

"I think they'll be forgotten," Keaveney said of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans. "People get tired of it. It's not glitzy that these are young, honorable, patriotic Americans. They'll just be veterans, and that happens after every war."

I'm really not moved much by the propaganda photos. It has no meaning until the day comes when we do not see THESE kind of photos ever again in this country. Because this is the real way we 'honor' veterans, the rest is just advertising for war.

[quinnox]

18. very good post sabrina

I agree with you.

[Romulox]

21. People said the guards at the tomb bring a tear??? The homeless man with the dog guts me.

[msanthrope]

24. Tell us what you've done for these men. nt

[sabrina 1]

36. There is no shortage of opportunity to help homeless veterans

as I see many, tragically, daily not far from I live. Out of respect for those who honored us by accepting the little help we are able to give, I have no intention of making this personal.

The question you should have asked, but then that would have kept the focus on the real point being made here, is 'what is our government doing for them'.

So I will ask YOU. Why are there so many homeless veterans, (25% of the homeless at this point when they make up only 11% of the population) in a country that claims to honor their service?

[msanthrope]

37. So tell us the opportunity you took to help the men whose pictures you used? nt

[sabrina 1]

39. Why are there so many homeless veterans in a country that claims

to honor them and why are you having such a hard time answering that question?

[msanthrope]

47. Again--you used these men's pictures. Tell us what you are doing for them. nt

[MineralMan]

58. I fear there is no real answer for the question.

But, thanks very much for asking it from a Vietnam era vet. I used to volunteer as a cook at a homeless shelter in California. A sizable percentage of those we served were veterans. It was a rewarding way to do something. Not doing a lot, but something.

Bob Dylan's words in "Like a Rolling Stone" always seem to come to me in situations like this:

You've gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it
You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?

How does it feel?

[msanthrope]

61. I currently provide transportation on an ad hoc basis for Vets--homeless and otherwise

to the local VA hospital. It's not as much as I would like to do, but often it is the difference in a Vet getting a procedure done, or not.

And you and I will both be working 5 am to 8 pm election day, will we not?

And yet, we are not 'progressive' enough for some.

[MineralMan]

66. Yup. Next Tuesday will be busy.

Not much room for perfection when it comes to getting folks to the polls to vote. Odds are I'll be transporting a few Republicans along with the Democrats, too.

Vats of soup and elections are both messy business. But, it all has to be done, and someone has to actually go out and do it. Pragmatism, it's called.

[msanthrope]

75. Election monitor/attorney in PA next Tuesday. 2k of us in PA. I'm sure most of us fail the purity

tests, but we are willing to go out and do.

[MineralMan]

82. Elections have never been about purity tests.

They are about electing the best candidate who can win. This year, it's Barack Obama. The purists don't care.

[msanthrope]

84. Nor do they get off their asses. The 101st Chairborne, bombs of poutrage. nt

[MineralMan]

104. I really don't know if they do or not. I know that I don't run

into a lot of TRVE™ Progressives at the polling place. Just pragmatic Democrats trying to get Democrats elected.

[great white snark]

71. Thanks for your aid.

Having read many of your posts I took you for a caring liberal of action and I was not mistaken.

This Veteran and Democrat will be on the front lines election day along with you, MM and all the other DU progressives who silently labor without need of internet pictures as authentication.

[msanthrope]

80. Thank you. nt

[MineralMan]

98. Thank you for working on this election. That's the job at hand

right now. Our side will win, I feel certain, and President Obama will get the second term he has earned.

[sabrina 1]

101. Well, where should I begin, although nothing any individual can do

is going to solve more than a miniscule part of the neglect of veterans. Currently my sisters-in-law and I are helping to take care of a WW11 veteran who requires round the clock care and visits three times a week to a dialysis center. Not to mention other health issues. He never talks about his service like many of his generation.

We have had homeless vets live with us, too traumatized to deal with the paperwork necessary to apply for benefits they are entitled, and when on the street with no way to deal with the effort involved.

There's more, you asked, I prefer not to make these issues personal to me and I know you play these 'gotcha' games, despite your constant failure at the game, in order not to respond to questions that are inconvenient.

Any help we try to give does little to alleviate the huge neglect of this government of its veterans. But it's all we can do as individuals.

Now, answer the question please. Why does a Government that constantly claims to 'support the troops' neglect them so badly after they return home from the wars they are sent to?

[msanthrope]

119. I don't think that a person who has worked with homeless vets would feel comfortable using them

in the manner you did.

I assume the WWII vet you describe is a family member, and is not homeless, and never has been?

[sabrina 1]

136. Lol, it is always amusing to see you work so hard to avoid answering

inconvenient questions. It's not a very good strategy btw as it does not conceal for one minute, your refusal to state your position on important issues.

However since you so often appear to be on the side of issues that are hard to explain here on DU, I do understand the difficulty you face.

And as I said before, you actually do answer, even if inadvertently.

Why does the US Military use soldiers to sell their unnecessary, for-profit wars then neglect them completely when they have no more use for them?

[msanthrope]

159. Sabrina, I ignore your questions. It's not hard work.

It's not strategy. It's not an attempt to conceal.

It's that I ignore your questions and you keep coming back.

[sabrina 1]

167. I know you do. The question is 'why' considering that other people have no

trouble answering them.

[sabrina 1]

151. Why are you ashamed of the photos of these soldiers who returned after

serving their country? It's okay to 'use' their photos when they were free from the effects of the wars they have fought in but it's 'using' them to give them recognition AFTER they return?

I am proud of those veterans and believe their service should be recognized, not hidden away from public view.

Why would you object to them getting the recognition they deserve? Why should they be hidden NOW, but not when they are all dressed up in their uniforms before they went to war?

I know Bush and Cheney will never pose with these soldiers, but that should not surprise anyone.

Most of those photos were posted by Veterans themselves.

Clearly they do not share this desire to keep them hidden, or this shame on their behalf.

[msanthrope]

175. Sabrina, have you taken to answering my posts twice because I'm not answering you

the first time?

Jeez.

[sabrina 1]

179. It's very hard to get an answer from you.

You do keep responding though so I am always optimistic that maybe one day you will actually respond to the comments made and we will learn where you actually stand on these issues.

[Egalitarian Thug]

85. Took back my rec of the OP. Your's deserves it far more. n/t

[EX500rider]

196. I prefer to ignore the pomp and circumstance which really does nothing for actual soldiers..

"I prefer to ignore the pomp and circumstance which really does nothing for actual soldiers and their families"

Does that include the families of service members who never came home?

Who's mothers have no idea where their son's body lies?

Who wishes for a grave site both solemn and honored to visit and cry and remember?

Can't see how having such a place to visit might be therapeutic and a way to honor their sons or daughter sacrifice?

wow...

[Romulox]

20. Missed the dust up, but it seems to me you are spot on--

it's like a mandatory secular religion.

[LP2K12]

23. I'm just going to leave this here...

My best friend since middle school and a brother-in-arms, PFC Paul O. Cuzzupe II.
A combat medic, he enlisted to save lives.



Here's some more you can honor, instead of worship...http://www.mortuary.af.mil/news/photos/mediagallery.asp?galleryID=7034&?id=-1&page=24&count=24

As veterans, we never asked for your worship. We take an oath to protect your freedoms whether or not you agree with us, and in the end... that's all the matters. Just know, our call to serve doesn't make us bad people.

[msanthrope]

25. I am truly sorry for your loss. nt

[sabrina 1]

40. I am sorry for the loss of your friend. My friend lost her husband, a

veteran who served two terms at the end of the Vietnam War a few years ago. He suffered all of his life from the results of that service. After his death, his widow's home was wrongfully foreclosed on. She received the eviction notice from Wells Fargo on Veterans Day, 2009.

[LP2K12]

78. So sorry to hear that.

My father also suffers from his service in Vietnam. It seems to be better now that he connects with other veterans on a daily basis at work.

[treestar]

30. It's an interesting issue

Because ironically, there is an attempt to elevate some people over others. If we're old or female we can't serve in combat. And it's the ultimate collective thing, which right wingers hate.

I used to tell them in their post 911 glory that if indeed the soldiers are fighting for our freedom, theirs is included too and they just happen to be the ones qualified by age and gender for combat - why should they expect adulation? It's entirely in their interests, too. They should support us as much as we support them. We like them, paid taxes to be used to give them clothes, weapons, etc., while they do their part.

With the volunteer military, there is some element of their making that choice to be heroic, which is why some argue for the draft - make it fall on everybody and it's not so glorified. It just falls on those who happen to be in fighting condition at the time. Then again that will change as it becomes more a matter of technology than brawn.

And then there are those who do it for their own glory anyway, not for the country. We don't need to "thank" those as they are getting what they want at our expense.

There are bad apples, too, as in all jobs categories - the ones who use the opportunity to do awful things, like Abu Ghraib and such incidents.

So it is far more complex than just mindless adulation.

[llmart]

171. I would rec this post.

Very well thought out.

My son works in the defense industry. He is extremely bright - identified as gifted when he was in elementary school. He is responsible for writing the code for F16 fighter jet simulators. Does he put his life on the line for that? No. However, what he does in some way helps to keep fighter pilots safe and gives them the latest technology and trains them on the latest technology so that their jobs are a bit safer.

What he does requires a skill set that is in very short supply and it truly takes an intelligent person to do what he does. However, we tend to forget about all the other people who help the military behind the scenes.

It can be quite dangerous to glorify the military ad nauseum which we certainly have done in recent years. I agree with a prior post that said it may just be from the guilty complex we have left over from Viet Nam.

I believe that every single young person in this country should do mandatory service of some sort, not necessarily military, after they graduate from high school. And yes, we need to honor those members of the Peace Corps just as much as the military.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. You know what is hysterical, yes hysterical, about this post

Americans do not worship the military. Americans don't even know we are at war...go shopping.

You want to know what worshipping and trusting the military looks like...look south.

Polls reveal deep respect for the army in Mexico, not in the US.

You're making a supreme court issue and a strm in a glass of water over a ceremony. That is what is baffling.

Take your issue with the political class that misuses the military, and avoids taking care of the spent ammo, err veterans.

If we worshiped as a nation the military, we would not have issues funding the VA. instead we have members of the political cass referring to the Vets (and others to be fair) as moocher and useless eaters. A country that worships it's military does not do this.

[Spider Jerusalem]

81. Sure Americans worship the military.

As an abstract concept. As a sort of "look how big our dick is" chest-thumping nationalist exercise. As part and parcel of the American idea of "patriotism". "Support the troops!" Yellow ribbons every-fucking-where during the Gulf War. Announcers at baseball games and the captains of airliners: "let's have a big hand for our troops who are here with us today!" Americans by and large are more militaristic and more reverent toward their military than are the citizens of any other Western country. They'd rather not be reminded of the costs of war and don't want to have to look at the human wreckage it causes...PTSD, suicides, alcoholism, homelessness...but worship of the military? That's there, no question.

[sibelian]

87. That's not worship, that's fetishism

Things worshipped are typically genuinely regarded as being of some value.

[txdemsftw]

41. Just to add to the above..

Funny how we are supposedly 'worshiped' but yet when my husband was in Active Duty, we barely made enough money to get by. We struggled to pay the bills and keep enough money set aside for groceries every month. But yeah, he sure was 'worshiped.' We relied on WIC and lots of coupons every 2 weeks to be able to eat.

When my husband finally decided to get out of Active Duty and go into the Reserves because we just weren't making enough, we almost had to rely on food stamps and we did have to get Medicaid for our boys for a few months because...gasp! HE COULD NOT FIND A JOB! After serving in Iraq, Saudi, Germany, etc.. for 7 years, my husband couldn't get a job. But yep, they are 'worshiped!'

Lucky for us, we pulled out of that mess since moving back to TEXAS where people do seem to give a shit about Veterans a little more, even though we are the 'evil' state of the country, but damn it...we have done well here. He now makes plenty of money, finished his degree, and still serves in the Reserves because HE WANTS TO. I haven't met ONE veteran in my lifetime who expects ANYONE to 'worship' them..not one.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Yup, the special chief's fund

Bought more than a gallon of milk and fruit for the wives of lower enlisted at the exchange in Hawaii.

I always shake my head by OPs like this.

[SomethingFishy]

45. I just saw a Facebook post

about how the Navy Seals secretly hate Obama, how they know he's a secret Muslim and how they will be silent NO MORE!

The post goes on to tell about a guy named Woods who "Took out 50 Jihadists with his last magazine before he died".

All I could think of was "yeah right, and Pat Tillman was killed leading his men up a hill against overwhelming enemy forces and Jessica Lynch killed 40 Iraqi soldiers while lying injured on the ground before being captured, taken prisoner and subsequently rescued by American Forces."

The bullshit in the military is unparalleled. HAd I joined the military I would have been the 4th generation in my family. Problem was my Grandfather and Great Grandfather never came back from their service. My dad served, came home and said "find something else to do". I took his advice.

[LanternWaste]

48. I imagine there are a handful who greatly respect, even admire the military.

I imagine there are a handful who greatly respect, even admire the military. I imagine also there are a few who believe there is no use for the military, and it should not exist regardless of any potential consequences.

However, I think that if we attribute (or even infer) "worship" or "awe", or any other biased adjective to someone in place of actual sentiment, we are not really advancing an argument as much as we are merely advancing our own perceptions (the academic v. the visceral).

And, as far as I've read on the threads in questions, critics of the existence of the U.S. military could find no objective nor absolute Bad Thing in and of itself about guarding the tomb of the unknown soldier, grudgingly admitting to its (at worst) benign nature, and whose arguments (as such) were then little more than "this tradition is stupid..."

However, I imagine one could argue that *all* benign traditions are stupid-- from guarding the tomb (called by some as "silly", to getting a tattoo (called by others as "body mutilation&quot , but I certainly hope that if we are grading traditions wholly on their own merit, we also include those traditions we ourselves take part when, regardless of whether we are consciously aware of that participation or not.

[argiel1234]

72. I suppose that if we dont clap loud and hard enough

for the military, we are not true Americans. It seems there is a purity test as to how we should offer no critique, let alone an opinion when it comes to such matters. After all, we are the peasants to be told what to think and say.

[sibelian]

90. I don't think it's really anything uniquely to do with being American.

Respect for the armed forces is a universal human trait.

[argiel1234]

94. Respect for the armed forces is most certainly NOT a universal trait

In fact in most countries, the military is feared and despised as a protector of corruption and often is used against the populace. Look at any middle eastern country for an example.

Most people are peaceful and just want to go about their lives with some food and housing and a bit of comfort.

I disagree that America isnt unique in this regard as well.
America has had plenty of jingoistic history to examine to show this is not the case

[stevenleser]

122. You are wrong again. No surprise here. In virtually all Democracies, the populace respects the

military. Care to try and dispute me on that? We can research polling on that if you like.

[argiel1234]

129. Post the Democracies and then post the links

that show the respect that the populace has for the military.

I will start.

Egypt. Quatar. U.A.E.

point out the links that the populace respects the military

[stevenleser]

131. Those are not Democracies. Next? nt

[argiel1234]

133. are you saying that our allies in Egypt, Quatar and the U.A.E are not

democracies?

are you saying we are allies with dictatorships?

Just so were entirely clear

[argiel1234]

137. egypt quatar and the uae

any answer. hello?

pitifully, you lack even a basic understanding of foreign policy experience

sorry, i read your blog and while you attack and expose romney, you seems to ignore very exposing questions

[nadinbrzezinski]

205. Mexico, where polling reveals the army

As even most respected than the Church.

Yes dear it's a democracy.

[Union Scribe]

201. How many countries have you lived in? nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

77. Two of the greatest authorities on this issue agree. Generals Eisenhower and Butler.

It is no coincidence that children are not taught, and therefore have never even heard of, one of America's greatest war heroes. Smedly Butler rose through the ranks to become a General and was the reason Congress made it impossible for anyone else to ever receive multiple Congressional Medals of Honor. After 34 years serving this nation came to the realization that he and all his brothers in arms were being used for no good purpose, but had become enforcers of corporate interests with no benefit to the people that are this nation.

General Eisenhower never served as an enlisted man, but like Butler did come to see what a dangerous path this nation had been put on by those same corporate interests.

"I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its stupidity." - Dwight D. Eisenhower in His Messages and Speeches

No one wants peace more than one that has seen battle. But, Conflating the troops with the service(s) is a very effective means to propagandize the population.

[DevonRex]

83. Which has nothing to do with the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

214. Of course it does. The Tomb exists to honor those that have given the last measure

for this nation and they do so with and because of the promise that their sacrifice will not be made in vain. That promise has been broken for so long that few are left that will even acknowledge it.

The title of the OP is "The problem of our military worshipping culture", the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is nothing if not worshipful.

[DevonRex]

79. The problem with your post:

Yesterday's post about the Tomb of The Unknown Soldier guards was not about our great military and it's grand heroes.

It was about the dedication of a few Soldiers in the face of horrible conditions. It was about the fact that they remember those unknown soldiers who died in WW1 and WW2 and other wars and we don't even know who they are. They have nobody else to remember them, to put flowers on their graves, to tell their stories to children and grandchildren and so on.

This has nothing to do with your little anti-military agenda. This is the opposite of your little agenda. This is giving these dead people a family.

None of us remembers them unless there is a picture like this in the media. Let us grieve for them and be part of their family for a few minutes without your disrespect entering into it.

You all got the responses you deserved.

[sarisataka]

86. Correction

Marines do not guard the Tomb, it is the army, specifically the 3rd Infantry Regiment.

[DevonRex]

95. I should have known, being an Army veteran myself.

Thank you for the correction.

[sarisataka]

99. No problem

I'm used to picking up army slack

Thank you for your service. Too many critique what they do not understand. If more people were vets there would be less war.

[geardaddy]

88. The guards are Army

not Marines.

[DevonRex]

97. I'll make the correction now.

I'm a proud female Army veteran myself. I should have known.

[geardaddy]

105. No problemo!

Thanks for your service.

[stevenleser]

125. That is just one of the many problems with the OP and its supporters.

One of the other big ones is, just about everything they have talked about here is based on supposition.

They THINK they know all about people who have served and why. But when you drill down on it, all of that is based on supposition. They really don't know anything about veterans.

There are at least three of us vets posting under this OP, one former Army (you) a former Marine, and me, a former Airman. I suppose they could ask us about the reality of service and what its about and what the people are like who serve but I guess it is more fun and provides less disagreement with their assumptions if they just post based on supposition.

[DevonRex]

138. Yes. You're right. Every veteran would

give a different answer, too, with the exception of those who were forced to serve because of the Vietnam draft. We would find a lot of commonality there, I'm sure. Even then, their experiences and feelings about having served would vary quite a bit.

And we still have a bond, no matter what, that has absolutely nothing to do with the glorification of the military in the terms that these people are presenting it.

[Lightbulb_on]

142. As an active duty Army guy...

... I serve and have continued to serve beyond my first stint because I think there is value in what I do.

On the most basic level, I am responsible for defending the physical United States from foreign attacks on a grand scale. It doesn't happen because we are here and would happen if we were all magicked away. This is the fighting for your freedom part. Our existence allows for people like the OP to spout what he likes.

On another level, I am a patriotic person and I take satisfaction in the fact that I am working to advance US capabilities and interests around the world. I want us to be the biggest, strongest and most influential in all possible realms and I don't see anything wrong with that. I benefit from it and the citizens of the US benefit from it.

I don't expect gratitude from others. Sometimes I receive it. Sometimes I don't. My buddy got a nice lob of spit from an Occupier.

I'm glad to do it anyways and anything beyond that is a perk.

[sarisataka]

145. Many people's knowledge of the military

comes from preconceived notions, assumption and movies, with maybe a questionable anecdote thrown in.

Next week I will be giving a presentation to a grade school on being a veteran and military life. Unlike a recruiter I don't have to convince them to sign up so hey will get the straight scoop, good and bad-slighty diluted to account for age, and will take any question they have. If adults want, I will tell them the same, but as for my experiences- even my wife doesn't know everything. Like most vets, I know 20 others far more worthy of recognition than me.


Movies I recomend for anyone interested in life in a combat zone are, in no particular order:
M*A*S*H*
Kelly's Heroes
Saving Private Ryan (though I think it would have been more accurate had Tom Hanks character been enlisted)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

91. "Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain

And, nothing in our culture is so much a sacred cow as our military.

[DevonRex]

102. This was about the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

Period. Not your foolish added agenda. Now you're seriously dragging sacred cow and hamburger into it? In relation to these people in that tomb?

Creates a rather disgusting mental picture, akin to Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

109. You don't think the military has become a sacred cow in this country?

Untouchable, immune to criticism, fawned on by politicians who throw money (our money) at it while waving the flag?

Better have those star spangled glasses you're wearing adjusted.

[DevonRex]

110. I think that hijacking yesterday's post about the Tomb

and the soldiers who guard it was disgusting and crass. It is the gravesite of people who have no one to remember them. Maybe they were just boys. Maybe they were fathers or nurses or chaplains. The soldiers who guard them are the only ones who care.

If you and your little friends wanted to rant about the sacred cow military you could have done it without disrupting a group of people who were thinking about those people who died in wars and were never even sent home to their families.

That goes for all those missing in Viet Nam, a war we all agree was wrong. For that matter almost all of us detest war to begin with. Almost all of us agree that the MIC exists. Almost all of us want the most information possible before we enter into any conflict.

But we can still mourn those who have given their lives. If you don't understand that then I feel sorry for you.

[trumad]

111. The botom line is those who hijacked that thread are major douchebags.

[DevonRex]

139. You mean that's all I had to say?

Gee. Coulda saved myself a lot of time.

[dionysus]

166. +1000000

[JI7]

115. Veterans are treated like Shit , there is no worship of Military, there is worship of War Mongering

by those who never served which the cowards often claim to be supporting the military.

[warrprayer]

124. It Is the Soldier

"It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, Who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the organizer, Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, Who salutes the flag, Who serves beneath the flag, And whose coffin is draped by the flag, Who allows the protestor to burn the flag. "
Author: Charles Michael Province, U.S. Army


These are the people who give their lives to defend our Constitution.

[white_wolf]

184. Oh I am so beyond sick of that "soldiers defend our freedom" line.

That may have been true in the past, but every single war of my lifetime has been fought to defend one thing. Corporate profits.

[Union Scribe]

203. The soldiers didn't pick those wars.

More accurate would be to say that, "soldiers are willing to die to defend our freedom, but are used and killed for little reason by recent plutocrats."

[warrprayer]

210. my guess is

that most of these soldier haters have not been close to or had any soldiers in their family. My brother went to Vietnam. He also turned me on to Catch-22, Keysey, Kerouack, and Kahil Gibran. Most real warriors are more like Hawkeye and not like Frank Burns. But you would have to get to know a few to understand that.

BTW I agree that your assesment is pretty accurate.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

126. Bingo!

It seems to me that in the last 20 years or so, the deification of veterans (war actually) has been taking place. Slowly so as to not tip the hand but notice the term is 'warrior' versus soldier, sailor, marine. Now we are reminded daily to be thankful for the sacrifices made on our behalf by our warriors. Keeping us safe.
Historically we've not maintained a large standing army for a couple of reasons, not least of which was we have two large bodies of water on either side and two large countries to the north and south of us.
IN the interest of full disclosure I'm a veteran and volunteered to serve. I don't need a thank you and I don't need to be put on a pedestal.

[Romulox]

152. Venerating a tomb (and by extension, a culture of militarism) isn't the same as caring for vets.

Not even close. We would care for vets by not throwing their young lives away in the forever wars.

Those who would conflate concern for vets with support for endless war have their own agendas.

[L0oniX]

164. Patriotism is for fools! I will deffer to those wiser than I. See examples...

Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy. - Henry Kissinger

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children." - Dwight Eisenhower

You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.- Abbie Hoffman

Blind obedience to authority is the enemy of the truth. - Albert Einstein

Become an internationalist and learn to respect all life. Make war on machines. And in particular the sterile machines of corporate death and the robots that guard them. -Abbie Hoffman

That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor . . . This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism–how passionately I hate them! – Albert Einstein

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool. – John Dryden

A patriot is a fool in eve’ry age. – Alexander Pope.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. – Samuel Johnson

In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary, patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit that it is the first. – Ambrose Bierce

Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen. – Ambrose Bierce

That pernicious sentiment, “Our country, right or wrong.” – James Russell Lowell

“My country right or wrong” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother drunk or sober.” – G. K. Chesterton

Patriotism which has the quality of intoxication is a danger not only to its native land but to the world, and “My country never wrong” is an even more dangerous maxim than “My country, right or wrong.” – Bertrand Russell

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. – George Bernard Shaw

You’ll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is an ephemeral motive that scarcely ever outlasts the particular threat to society that aroused it. – Denis Diderot

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. – George Santayana

The Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations. – H.G. Wells

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. “Patriotism” is its cult. . . . Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one’s country which is not part of one’s love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship. – Erich Fromm

One of the great attractions of patriotism– it full fills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat, Bully and cheat, what’s more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous. – Aldous Huxley

Many studies have discovered a close link between prejudice and “patriotism” . . . Extreme bigots are almost always super-patriots – Gordon Allport

It seems like the less a statesman amounts to, the more he loves the flag. – Elbert Hubband

Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy. – William Inge

Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism corrupts history. – Goethe

Into the cultural and technological system of the modern world, the patriotic spirit fits like dust in the eyes and sand in the bearings. Its net contribution to the outcome is obscuration, distrust, and retardation at every point where it touches the fortunes of modern mankind. – Thorstein Veblen

The standardization of mass-production carries with it a tendency to standardize a mass-mind, producing a willing conformity, not merely to common ways of living, but to common ways of thinking and common valuations. The worst defect of patriotism is its tendency to foster and impose this common mind, and so to stifle the innumerable germs of liberty. – J.A. Hobson

2. Patriotism and War:

At the bottom of all patriotism is war: that is why I am no patriot. – Jules Renard

No other factor in history, not even religion, has produced so many wars as has the clash of national egotisms sanctified by the name of patriotism. – Preserved Smith

Naturally the common people don’t want war . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders . . . All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. – Hermann Goering.


3. Patriotism and Religion:

Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched. – Guy de Maupassant

God and Country are an unbeatable team; they break all records for oppression and bloodshed. – Luis Buñuel

To be patriotic, hate all nations but your own; to be religious, all sects but your own; to be moral, all pretenses but your own. – Lionel Strachey

When a dog barks at the moon, then it is religion; but when he barks at strangers, it is patriotism! – David Starr Jordan

4. The American Syndrome:

If you have a weak candidate and a weak platform, wrap yourself up in the American flag and talk about the Constitution. – Matt Quay

How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be “American” before (or in contradistinction to) being cultivated, being enlightened, being humane, & having the same intellectual discipline as other civilized countries? It is really too easy a disguise for our shortcomings to dress them up as a form of patriotism. – Edith Wharton

The 100 percent American is 99 percent an idiot. – George Bernard Shaw

Treason is in the air around us everywhere. It goes by the name of patriotism. – Thomas Corwin

5. Three relatively positive assessments of patriotism:

A patriot is somebody who protects his country from his government. Or better yet: who has the guts to protect his country from its government. – Piotyr Dirk

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. – George Washington

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. – Thomas Jefferson

[quinnox]

183. wow, great list of quotes

A lot of wise people said it a hell of a lot more elegantly than I ever could.

I just have to nod in agreement and appreciation at those quotes.

[lonestarnot]

202. +47 Enjoyed reading those! Thanks.

[dionysus]

165. thanks for making a fool of yourself.

[msanthrope]

198. Well, yesterday quinnox thought the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier was

empty.

So, being consistent is a good thing.

[hrmjustin]

185. Respect for the military is ingrained in the people's mind.

I do agree that people overreacted in the thread on the unknown soldier. As an anti-war person I share your dislike of the glorification of war. I do however believe that we should always appreciate the people who serve this country in the armed forces as I believe you do. This is an interesting topic that can get messy as it did in here. Discussion is good. A larger discussion in this country about the war machine that sends people to war really needs to be discussed. The men and women of the armed forces should always be honored in anyway possible by the people of this country. There are many ways, but the best way is to make sure that you use force only when we need to. Discussion with respect on this issue is good, and that is what I think the OP intended. Good topic quinnox.
God bless the men and women of our armed forces and God bless those who are victims of war.

[quinnox]

189. good post

and its appreciated.

[hrmjustin]

190. Thank you and it is a good topic.

[Scuba]

206. Honoring those who sacrificed everything is different than "worship of all things military"...

... as an anti-war veteran I feel well qualified to inform you of this.

[Vattel]

207. I agree.

And I am tired of the attitude that the individual soldier is honorable in serving even if he or she paticipates in unjust aggression. I am sure some street gang members act demonstrate physical toughness and guts when they have a shoot out with another gang or the police, but that does not make them heroes or their actions honorable. If a soldier is asked to participate in an immoral war, he or she should refuse and accept the consequences. That is the courageous and honorable course of action in those circumstances.

[eqfan592]

215. Sorry, but that is a bunch of bullshit.

Soldiers are their to obey the orders of their civilian government when it comes down too it. If we send them to an unjust war, it is not THERE fault, but ours for sending them.

[Vattel]

219. Geez, the "I was just following orders" excuse is alive and well.

[Canuckistanian]

212. Speaking as a "foreigner"

Albeit a long time DUer, I concur with the OP.

We Canadians DO NOT as a whole display such reverence to the military or it's members.

Yes, we celebrate our heroes from WWII and Korea, but currently serving members of the armed forces are not viewed generally as "defenders of our freedom" by most.

I'm always astounded that in America, progressives who are AGAINST wars of aggression STILL praise the members of that military committing the aggression.

And the title of "veteran" seems to be almost sacred. And any transgression against them to be sacrilege.

I really don't get that.

[eqfan592]

216. Wow, just wow.

Do you think the military just randomly decides to go off and make war on their own? Of course not. The civilian government directs them. So if they are sent to an unjust war, it is NOT the fault of the soldiers who signed up to serve their nation, but the fault of the government.

[Canuckistanian]

220. No, I agree with you

I especially abhor these "support the troops" messages everywhere that seem to imply that if you're anti-war, you "hate the troops"
Absolutely ridiculous.

I know who sends them there. The war-mongers.

[DaniDubois]

213. In America church and war seem to go hand in hand

You're brainwashed from a young age that you MUST support the troops or you're unpatriotic, a lot of this type of thinking is still being pushed in churches all across America. Why support all of these wars? The troops aren't over there fighting to protect me or my family or your family. They're protecting corporate interests and the bottom line. American tax payers are footing the bill.

Nothing will change until Americans change.

[Dash87]

221. Our culture worships war, not the military

If we worshipped the military, we wouldn't carelessly send them to die.

Worshipping the military actually sounds like a good idea. We should start b