Considering potential bans on Abortion, Contraception, and the LGBT...

[Florida Bull]

I wonder how some on the Right would feel about a ban on adultery and second marriages.

In the book of Matthew, Jesus Christ says divorcing a spouse and marrying a second person is adultery. But, he says nothing about same-sex marriage. How about calling Conservatives’ bluff, and banning second marriages? Would they object then?

Would they like the government tracking them and pressing criminal charges for their adulterous affairs? Being LGBT is not mentioned in their heavily beloved 10 Commandments, but adultery is!

Before anybody misinterprets my post, I am not actually advocating for these policies. But, pointing out the hypocrisy.

[Florida Bull]

1. Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ also says nothing about Abortion and/or Birth Control.

[TreasonousBastard]

3. Well, abortion was quite popular in Rome at the time of...

Jesus. The Persians at the time abhored it, and we don't know much about how the earliest church fathers felt about it, although some records show it was against it.

All this has a lot to do with Augustus and his belief that Roman citizenship was declining and that decline was due to abortion, homosexuality, and men refusing to marry, most which he made illegal.

Early church writings and opinions were influenced heavily by these external forces, and the destruction of early writings does not help our understanding

[Ms. Toad]

2. They will just get annulments.

You do know that is the practice in the Catholic church (which does follow that ban), right?

[pnwmom]

6. It's very difficult to get annulments. My parents didn't qualify

even though my father turned out to be gay.

He was able to father children, and that's all that counted.

[Scrivener7]

9. It depends on where you are. Brooklyn is the Catholic Reno.

My relatives were anulled after 5 children due to emotional immaturity of the husband at the time of the marriage.

I am sorry the church made things difficult for your family.

[pnwmom]

16. I've heard that as a reason. However, being gay wasn't considered a sign

of emotional immaturity.

Basically the church didn't recognize the concept of homosexuality. There were sinful sexual acts (any sex outside of marriage), but not orientations. Someone who entered marriage planning to be adulterous could render the marriage invalid. But homosexual sex on the side wasn't adulterous -- only sex with an opposite sex partner.

Also, how would even emotional immaturity be proven if the "immature" partner refused to participate?

[Scrivener7]

20. Crazy.

[Ms. Toad]

14. Everyone I know who wanted one, got one.

It wasn't always easy, and you had to have the resources to jump through a lot of hoops, but if you were persistent, you were able to get one.

[pnwmom]

15. My mother was persistent. But the Church law was clear, so it depended

on how flexible the Bishop was willing to be.

Plus, as I recall, the process requires both spouses to participate, and my dad wasn't interested in participating.

[Ms. Toad]

17. The participation of both spouses is not required for a church annulment.

Annulments were previously harder to get. But in more recent years a long as you are wiling to put up with the process, you'll get an annulment.

"In most years since 1980, this has fluctuated between 85 percent and 92 percent,” Mr. Gray said. . . . Of those who applied in 1992 in the United States, according to Vatican statistics, 83 percent received annulments and 2 percent were denied. Fifteen percent of the cases were abandoned by the applicants.

https://www.rampfesthudson.com/what-percentage-of-annulments-are-granted/#What_percentage_of_annulments_are_granted

"Lack of due discretion of judgment" is the basis for about 75 percent of American annulments today, including that of Kennedy. Divorcees can claim that as a bride or groom they were emotionally immature, or incapable of commitment or fidelity.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1997/04/20/so-the-marriage-was-never-actually-valid/05227626-2a18-4ae8-a1d7-76fd0f00675c/

Pretty much anyone can claim they were emotionally immature or incapable of commitment of fidelity. The process of proving it may be time consuming, humiliating, and costly - accounting for the 15% who abandoned the process. But if you persist - at least in recent years - you are likely to be granted an annulment.

[pnwmom]

19. My mother didn't get to the point of applying because she was told there was no point

because she didn't qualify and he had to help. Also, the process described in the WA Post article sounds more humiliating than she could have stood. She was filled with shame, even though the situation was no one's fault.

"I felt like I was under an inquisition," the woman said last week, requesting anonymity because she is awaiting a decision from the priests. "After leaving that interview I almost said, forget it. It was just really a creepy feeling. It felt invasive. I thought, who were these people to be judging me?"

I wonder how much the statistics are affected by people who gave up like she did, thinking it wasn't worth it to go through all that because there was no chance.

[Ms. Toad]

23. My point was that, if you're willing to put up with the process, you can get an annulment.

and pretend that you weren't really married in the first place. Of the people who applied - only 2% were denied by the church. The remainder were either granted an annulment - or withdrew.

As a practical matter, the ban on divorce (or, more accurately, on remarriage) is nearly as much of a joke as the ban on contraception. as applicable to this thread - if it works for the Catholics, it will work as an out for the other conservative Christians.

(This is not to bash Catholics, in general. Many Catholics are consistent partners in the work for peace, civil rights, and against poverty because their faith compels them to social action. I just have little tolerance for Catholics like my BIL who called me up to inform me he would not be attending my marriage to his sister because it was sinful - at the same time he was having an affair.)

[pnwmom]

25. Despite your BIL, you clearly understand that Catholics are as split as other Americans.

And they actually support abortion rights and contraception in higher numbers than other Christians overall.

But I'm sure hating the ones on the Supreme Court (except for Sotomayor, of course.)

[Ms. Toad]

27. Correct - which is what bothers me.

If you disagree with the church doctrine on contraception, abortion, adultry, war, etc., find a religion which allows you to participate with integrity.

I have a lot of respect for people of faith who act with integrity. Not so much people who pick and choose church doctrines for convenience (or even those who sincerely believe the doctrine is wrong - but continue to lend their name and money to a public posture with which they disagree in private by both actions and words).

[Scrivener7]

21. That's kind of awful. He wanted her to stay married to him?

[pnwmom]

22. No, they were divorced and he didn't care about going through a humiliating annulment, too.

There's really no point to getting an annulment unless you hope to remarry again as a Catholic. Mom would have liked to have that door open, but Dad didn't care since he couldn't remarry anyway. (Even post 2015, Catholic priests don't perform same-sex marriages.)

[Florida Bull]

18. Do State governments

Do state governments offer annulments after years or decades of marriage?

[Ms. Toad]

24. Under some circumstances.

But just like the Catholic church, which pretends a marriage didn't exist if it is convenient, state laws will adapt.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

4. I'm a free spirit. But they are going to end up coming after me next.

Something needs to wake these fuddyduddy up.

[Rhiannon12866]

5. Forget second marriages, TFG and Giuliani both had three

And that's only the marriages...

[madinmaryland]

26. Rush Limbaugh was married four times and had no children. Thank you Darwin!

[milestogo]

7. Jesus taught that lust for other women in a man's heart already constituted adultery

Matthew 5:28

So if there is any evidence of lust, such as watching porn, the man should be punished.

[Freddie]

8. The Biblical objection to divorce was to protect women

In those times, a man could divorce his wife by simply declaring in public, “I divorce you.” And then she will have NOTHING including losing her children. Jesus was trying to right an injustice of the times. Protecting women, imagine that!
Our pastor (since retired) often interpreted the Bible in a historical context, which was very enlightening.

[dsc]

10. NC has a ban on adultery

[Tickle]

11. How is that

working for them?

[dsc]

12. I think it isn't enforced often

but a few years ago a deputy lost his job due to having an affair with the justification being the illegality of affairs.

[X07Y39-Alpha]

13. Adultery is already illegal in several states

Adultery is illegal in Alabama, Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Kansas, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, New York, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Utah, Virginia and Wisconsin. Most of them consider it a misdemeanor. But in Idaho, Massachusetts, Michigan, Oklahoma and Wisconsin, among others, it is a felony crime punishable by prison. It is very rarely enforced and usually only brought up in a messy divorce case.

[Florida Bull]

28. It feels like splitting hairs,

Saying annulment exists, so what Jesus said about divorce and remarriage in the book of Matthew does not apply. Annulment is like another form of divorce, even if it has a different name and process. And, it would largely be intended for fraudulent and forced marriages.

Most people who end their marriages get divorces, not declared annulments anyway. It is still a common double standard by many homophobes who divorce and remarry.

Straight people who commit adultery are also not uncommon. Many anti-LGBT adulterers are trying to get bans on consensual sex between Gay adults. They would not like the loss of privacy for themselves, but it is no less reasonable than the return of pre-Lawrence v. Texas laws.