5th circuit rules against allowing children to buy handguns

[jenw2]

[link:http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/11/11-10959-CV0.wpd.pdf]http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/11/11-10959-CV0.wpd.pdf[/link]

A win for safety today. A federal court denied the NRA's demand that children be allowed to buy handguns. Now if only we could get congress to move the minimum age to a 100.

[msongs]

1. "well regulated" allows....regulations ta da! nt

[hack89]

11. Whether they are rational or not. nt

[CreekDog]

24. i think you're more upset by this than by all the threads about childhood poverty

[hack89]

28. No - not upset. Just pointing out the irrationality of the ruling.

whereby an 18 year old can buy an AK-47 clone but not a handgun.

The tide of history is against gun control - there is nothing to be upset about. It is a spent force in America.

[KamaAina]

77. What's irrational about that

is that an AK-47 clone and a plain old hunting rifle are classified the same. That's just plain nuts.

[eqfan592]

79. Explain why please?

Outside of "one looks more evil than the other" there isn't a lot of functional difference between the two. Magazine capacity can be greater with one than the other, but reloading isn't exactly a complex action.

[KamaAina]

85. One is semiautomatic

the age restriction is reasonable for it, not so much for the plain old rifle.

[glacierbay]

90. An 18 yo can buy an AK-47 clone

the law is that they can't buy a handgun from a dealer until age 21.
And why when I was 18, did the govt arm me heavily and send me to Vietnam if I'm still a child?

[eqfan592]

93. There are most certainly semi-automatic "hunting" rifles.

I put "hunting" in quotes simply because many so-called "assault rifles" can and are used regularly to hunt.

An example of what somebody unfamiliar with firearms would classify as a "hunting" rifle that is also semi-automatic:

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/family.asp?webflag_=002B

[KamaAina]

103. Then they're not "plain old hunting rifles"

and should be reclassified.

[eqfan592]

105. That's your opinion.

And you are more than welcome to it. But to what end? Exactly what purpose would any such reclassification serve? And at what political cost?

[KamaAina]

106. I'm trying to *help* you guys.

I am generally pro-gun control, but I'm a moderate compared to many here. You're correct in pointing out the insanity of making AK-47 clone purchases easier than those of handguns. I am not convinced, however, that making handgun sales easier is the answer. That's the purpose the reclassification would serve: to eliminate that disparity, which is reminiscent of that between sentences for crack vs. powdered cocaine, while still allowing 18-year-olds to purchase traditional, non-automatic rifles.

[eqfan592]

111. Let me rephrase.

What do you believe removal of that disparity would accomplish? What is the ultimate objective?

[KamaAina]

114. Making the gun laws sane and reasonable.

P.S. I cannot believe this entire thread was not moved to the Gungeon hours ago.

[eqfan592]

115. Sorry, but that is still not what I'm asking.

No worries tho. And I agree, kinda shocked it has lasted this long.

[hack89]

81. I know - that hunting rifle is much more powerful

a lot of destructive power to put in the hands of a "child".

[hack89]

2. 18, 19 or 20 = children?

why do we let children vote or fight wars?

[joeybee12]

23. And the legal drinking age is 21...

Are you gonna argue that one, too?

[hack89]

26. Why can 18 - 20 year olds buy "assault weapons" but not handguns?

Care to explain that logic to me?

[eqfan592]

47. I would.

If you can be drafted into the military and sent off to fight and die for your country, I think you should have the right to buy a damn beer as well.

But hey, that's just me. It just seems like we as a society aren't really sure what to make of 18-20 year old people, and our laws/rules around them are inconsistent at best.

[obamanut2012]

88. I think 18 year olds should be allowed to drink

They can die for their country and they can vote. They can buy adult magazines, sign contracts, get married, work without any restrictions, etc.

[Selatius]

136. This is like arguing that the voting age should be raised back up to 21.

Are you going to argue that?

[Whovian]

3. Wow. They actually went there?

[hack89]

6. The "children" in this ruling are 18-20 year olds. nt

[Whovian]

8. I read it. Nothing comforts me more that a pissed off 18 rear old with a Glock.

[hack89]

9. Yet that 18 year old can be trusted to vote and fight wars? OK.. nt

[Whovian]

12. Doesn't make it right. How'sabout an 18 year old president?

[hack89]

14. So why can that 18 year legally buy a semi-automatic rifle?

does that mean that semi-automatic rifles are not the threat to public safety that we keep hearing about? Because we know that gun laws are rational and well thought out, don't we?

[slackmaster]

16. The flaw in your thinking is expecting the law to make logical sense, hack89.

I gave up on that decades ago.

[reformist2]

4. Reminds me of this scene from Willy Wonka (old version)!

Keep watching till the end for the nice little anti-gun-culture snark!

[hack89]

5. The court implicitly ruled that "children" can buy semiautomatic rifles.

so 18-20 year old Americans can't buy handguns but can buy an Ak-47 or AR-15 clone - interesting twist.

[Marinedem]

7. Whatt a load of crap

18-20 does not equal "Children".

Attempts to sensationalize the events by controlling the language. Nothing more.

[jenw2]

20. You're wrong

From Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act:

"Children shall be permitted to remain on their parents' insurance plan until their 26th birthday"

Up to 26 is now considered a child. It is in the law, and it is a law that nearly all of us here support. Handguns should have the same 26 year-old restriction.

[whistler162]

21. At 50 you are still a child of your parents

, that never changes, but you are no longer a child, hopefully!

[hack89]

32. This ruling says that "children" can buy assualt weapons

does that meant that such weapons are not as dangerous as we thought?

[hack89]

33. And of course that means the drinking age should be 26 as well?

or do you support selling alcohol to children?

[glacierbay]

43. That's gotta be the dumbest argument I've seen today. nt.

[4th law of robotics]

70. Do you think children should vote?

[Ya Basta]

74. Society says at age 18 you're now adult enough to be fully responsible for your actions

Therefore you can now go fight and kill people and die in wars. You can now go to prison instead of juvenile hall. You can now legally get thrown out of your parent's home, etc.

On the other hand that same society says that at age 18 - 20 you're not adult enough yet to gamble, drink, own a handgun, etc.

In other words old enough to be treated as an adult when its against you but treated as a child when it comes to adult activities.

Typical hypocrisy.

[SQUEE]

82. I am sure in the interest of fairness

and intellectual honesty you would have no problem with lifting the age to drink, gamble, vote, enter into contract and other things attached to the Age of Majority be lifted to your now "official" age of 26, am I right?

[4th law of robotics]

69. Such "children" can volunteer for the military

It even be drafted.

[slackmaster]

10. An 18-year-old can vote, join the military and be issued any kind of weapon

But can't buy a handgun for self-defense.

[Whovian]

13. An 18YO can get pregnant, impregnate, and do lots of things.

It does not mean that the majority are responsible.

[4th law of robotics]

71. But it is their right

If someone said we should not allow eighte.en year olds to get pregnant they would receive a stern lecture about choice.

[Whovian]

80. More than a "right" it's a natural law.

Something that the general populace has no realistic control over. On the other hand...

[4th law of robotics]

83. First off it is a right

Ask China about how easy it is to take away reproductive rights.

Second does the same apply to voting and free speech? Should 18 year old "children" have those rights?

[Whovian]

94. Biological functions can't really be taken away. Punished maybe

but without some really bizarre massive Machiavellian surgical mandate, kids are still going to reproduce.

[eqfan592]

97. I think somebody missed the train...

[4th law of robotics]

102. Really?

Forced sterilization isn't a thing? Or forced abortions? That's news to millions of people. Our for that matter forced pregnancy via rape...

[CreekDog]

25. what gets me is that you have no problem with them being denied a college education

it's only when there is some restriction on them buying a gun that you seem to get upset.

but then, i'm a liberal and you are not.

[slackmaster]

31. Please provide evidence to support your assertion that I have no problem...

...with anyone at all being denied a college education.

[slackmaster]

53. Oh, you can't.

[Whovian]

48. +1 CreekDog

I cannot say more as to my own assumptions as it might get me banned.

[eqfan592]

55. Oh please do speak your mind.

I'm sure you have loads of intelligent, well thought out things to say on this unfounded personal attack that you so kindly "+1'd."

[Whovian]

56. Thanks, but no thanks.

[eqfan592]

61. Color me shocked. (nt)

[Whovian]

109. Okay, you're shocked. Okay, have learned that here anti-gun statements

can get you locked, banned or tombstoned.

[eqfan592]

112. BUWAHAHAHAHAHA!! And that right there, is a duzy if I ever heard one. (nt)

[slackmaster]

118. You haven't learned a blessed thing

[CreekDog]

119. true.

that's why he should spend less time arguing with you.

[Whovian]

128. Arguing with you people is like arguing with teabaggers.

[eqfan592]

129. Which would be a true statement had you been speaking into a mirror.

Projection must be a serious problem for you.

[slackmaster]

131. Please explain exactly what you mean by the term "you people"

[Whovian]

135. Sorry, not going to bite.

[slackmaster]

137. That's cowardly behavior

You should be able to express what you really mean without violating the community standards.

Or maybe you haven't figured that out yet.

[Whovian]

138. Well, I don't have a gun like you. And frankly, you scare me.

[slackmaster]

139. I've had a lot of people say a lot of different things to me in the real world

But I can't recall anyone ever saying that he or she was scared of me.

[eqfan592]

140. I think it's some of that paranoia and irrational fear that we've been hearing about.... (nt)

[Whovian]

141. Probably because they were afraid to.

[slackmaster]

142. You have just tipped your hand

Now I know you aren't serious.

[Whovian]

143. As serious as a heart attack.

You know how I feel. No apologies. I feel you and you ilk are responsible for many tragedies in this country.

[slackmaster]

144. Please explain exactly what you mean by the term "your ilk"

This is a very serious question. I want to know what (real or imaginary) group you have pigeon-holed me into with such scant information.

[Whovian]

146. You have over 56K posts which allows one to discern your "ilk."

If you have problem understanding that get a dictionary.

[slackmaster]

147. More cowardly behavior. Why won't you simply say what you mean and get it out in the open?

I understand perfectly what the word ilk means.

You couldn't possibly have enough information about me to make an informed classification of me, even if you had read every one of my posts.

[Whovian]

149. Well, I can't They'd ban me. Besides I don't get paid for jabbering with you so CYA.

[slackmaster]

150. You seem to have a lot of hatred for someone you barely know anything about

[Whovian]

152. No, I don't hate you. For you it's economic and probably far worse.

I disagree with you.

[slackmaster]

154. Well, you can relax now

I really don't care what you think about me personally, or what you and I disagree about.

[Fla_Democrat]

155. Whut?

[CreekDog]

117. my post applies to more than one person

in case you were wondering.

[eqfan592]

124. Yes, you are now the keeper of the litmus test for being a "liberal."

Pro-choice? Meaningless. Pro-LGBT equality? Heh, who cares! Anti-gun owners? Now THERE's the ticket to true liberalism!

[CreekDog]

126. no, but thanks for playing!

[eqfan592]

130. lol, did you really think what you said was that funny?

EDIT: Given the true delicate flowers here can't handle anything even remotely negative directed at them, I've edited my post.

But please, continue with your use of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

[slackmaster]

134. Are you saying that in reply #25 that the word "you" should be construed as "you people?"

And if so, what exactly do you mean by that?

my post applies to more than one person

Tells us who you think it applies to.

[bongbong]

15. None of the 18-20 year olds will complain about this

They're too young to be as terrified of the outside world as the Delicate Flowers (gun-nuts) are.

[sarisataka]

17. Those 18-20 and younger

are well aware of how dangerous the outside world is more than some 'grownups'

I personally know two people who dropped out of school as they were afraid to go to school. The path to school is not a safe area and it is no better inside. They knew the admin turned a blind eye to bullying and other violence in the school. If a student dared to fight back they would receive the same punishment as the initiators.

[bongbong]

35. And guns will help how?

What a laugh Delicate Flowers are!

[sarisataka]

37. I did not say guns would help...

I responded to your statement

They're too young to be as terrified of the outside world

I do note your deep concern for children who are bullied and ignored by the system.

[bongbong]

122. LOL

> I do note your deep concern for children who are bullied and ignored by the system.

As I note the Delicate Flower's concern for Americans who get massacred by other Delicate Flowers.

[sarisataka]

127. Funny

as in funny strange- the google dumps trend to never have any concern for the victims either...

[hack89]

18. Ask the 18-20 year olds living in gang infested neighborhoods about fear.

as gang bangers younger than them prey on them with illegally owned handguns. Wouldn't want to give them a means to protect themselves, would we?

[bongbong]

34. HAHAHAHA

More laughs from the clueless, and repeatedly-posting-false-implications-about-gun-stats, out-of-touch, scared little Delicate Flower.

[hack89]

57. So young people living in Chicago and DC have no reason to be fearful?

ok. So why all the hullabaloo about guns if they are not threatening anyone?

[rustydog]

44. Nice try, I confronted gang-bangers for years in Yakima without a freaking gun in hand

The naive frontier idea of the gunfight at the OK corral comes from people who have no idea about the devastation of a gunfight and have this hollywood view of how massive gunfire takes out only the bad guy and not the innocent and evil alike.

It is NOT the answer.

[hack89]

58. The point is that young people living in such an environment know and understand fear

unlike what the poster I was replying to maintains.

You disarm the criminals first and then we can talk about disarming their victims.

[bongbong]

108. Fear?

Fear rules the Delicate Flower's lives. Fear of EVERYTHING outside the four walls of their "Fortress Of Solitude". They need GUNS to brave the real world, and think everybody else does too.

Trouble is, not everyone is as scared of the public as the Delicate Flowers (gun-nuts) are.

[hack89]

110. I seldom carry in public so I don't see your point

I mainly own guns because my family competes in target shooting.

The only real reason I have a CCW is to piss off people like you.

[bongbong]

123. Yep!

So what you do (not carry) is what all the other Delicate Flowers do?

> The only real reason I have a CCW is to piss off people like you.

Your hatred of Liberalism is noted.

[eqfan592]

133. Well I guess we all know who the real delicate flowers are. ;)

[bongbong]

151. Yes!

> Well I guess we all know who the real delicate flowers are.

The gun-nuts who complained so much about my posts that I got banned from the gungeon!

[hughee99]

51. In my experience, there is no flower more delicate than those who think

their own beliefs should be imposed on everyone for their own good.

[bongbong]

121. Yes!

You're right. The Delicate Flowers who want their fear (fear of the entire world unless they're strapped) imposed on America.

[eqfan592]

132. HAHAHAHAHAHA! That went right over your head, didn't it bongbong?

Not shocked, but funny never the less. lol

[bongbong]

148. LOL

You think it went over my head? Oh you're a hoot!

[sl8]

153. The appellants were 18-21 years old. Does filing suit count as a complaint? n/t

[TBF]

19. I'd call it a win for age discrimination.

Personally I'd do much more control of guns but you've got to be fair. I don't know enough about weapons to say which would be good to ban but I assume folks want to hunt and I don't see a big problem with that. I've never been into it and the most I've ever shot is a bb gun (grew up in the country), but a lot of folks I grew up with hunt for food and live off that venison in the winter months.

If the 17-20 yr old population doesn't need handguns I don't see why they are available for everyone else.

[ManiacJoe]

22. The misleading title really needs to be corrected.

[cthulu2016]

49. But the misleading title is the only reason this was posted

[Ruby the Liberal]

27. Wait - what?

The NRA actually argued that CHILDREN should have the right to buy weapons?

Consider shark jumped.

[hack89]

29. No - unless you consider 18 to 20 year old men and women "children"

do you?

[cthulu2016]

46. Why do you believe everything somebody posts on DU

The OP is lying... unless you consider the average Private in the US Army to be a "child"

[4th law of robotics]

73. Or you know, adults

Calling 18 year olds children is pretty misleading.

[obamanut2012]

92. No, 18-20 year olds

You have to be 21 to buy a handgun.

[Douglas Carpenter]

30. what do you expect form courts dominated by Constitution hating gun grabbing activist Judges?

Canada, Sweden, France, Norway, the U.K, Germany and the Netherlands all have gun control and what is the result? The people live every day of their lives under totalitarian dictatorship while they cannot walk out of heir houses without being terrorized by criminal thugs!

[bongbong]

36. Nice summary of the way Delicate Flowers think

Nice snark, but the Delicate Flowers (denizens of the DU gungeon) are, most likely, taking you completely seriously.

[eqfan592]

101. You should really look at the statistical evidence, both pre and post ban, in all of those nations.

Specifically, the stats where in pertains to violent crime rates.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

38. In the case of No Shit Sherlock versus Common Fucking Sense. nt

[eqfan592]

40. More like the case of "total crap headline in the OP."

18-20 is not a child.

[cthulu2016]

45. Read first. Comment after.

[NickB79]

39. Plenty of 20-yr old combat-hardened vets in recent years

After the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Why exactly can't they purchase a handgun once they rotate back to the states?

[glacierbay]

41. Well, at age 18

the same govt trusted me to carry a 1911 .45 cal. handgun, an M-16A1 rifle, grenades, a bloop gun, so this makes no fucking sense at all.

Move the minimum age to 100? Well, at least you're a hoot.

[cthulu2016]

42. This OP headline is offensive. The same "children" can serve in the military.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

50. I wonder how many 18-20 year old DUers ...

would call themselves "children".

[glacierbay]

54. I wasn't considered a "child"

when I went to Vietnam at age 18, the govt seemed to think I was an adult trusted with weapons. So what's the difference now?

[Lightbulb_on]

145. You'd be surprised...

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/wellness/story/2012-07-30/Emerging-adults-18-29-still-attached-to-parents/56575404/1

Many kids today are happy and consider it "normal" to still be attached to mommy and daddy well into their 20s. Why should they feel like adults?

[WCGreen]

52. Well Hallelujah...

The line has been drawn so that children shall not be armed.

[eqfan592]

60. Unless they join the military.

Because the "children" in this story are 18-20 years of age.

[hack89]

62. Except that "children" can legally buy "assault weapons"

ponder that logic for a few moments.

[glacierbay]

64. Do you consider 18-20 yo

to be children? If so, then why does the govt send them to war heavily armed?

[WCGreen]

68. At 18 you can legally enter into a contract...

So I guess that is adulthood in the world in which we live in.

[glacierbay]

72. What I don't understand is that

at age 18, you're legally an adult, you can be sent to a combat zone heavily armed, you can vote, yet you can't legally buy liquor, you can't buy a handgun from an FFL dealer.
How does this make any sense?

[eqfan592]

76. It doesn't make any sense at all.

But because "gunz 'r evil" then any ruling that restrictions access, no matter the questionable constitutionality of such a ruling, MUST be a good thing. DIDN'T YOU KNOW THIS ALREADY!?!?!?!?!

[-..__...]

78. The booze one is BS...

and is only in place because States were threatened/blackmailed with losing Federal highway funds if they didn't raise the drinking age.

[-..__...]

59. At worst, it's a minor roadblock to progress and 2nd amendment rights.

18-20 year olds can still purchase and posses handguns in Texas (and many other states), they just can't purchase them from an FFL/licensed dealer.

They can only acquire them through a private sale/transfer, or have them gifted to them by a legal guardian.

We'll just have to wait and see how far this case goes up the appeals ladder.

[eqfan592]

63. Ya know, there's another group of people that attempts to mislead in order to promote their...

...non-reality based agenda. I think that group is called the Tea Party.

Oh yeah, I just went there.

[glacierbay]

65. Uh Oh, you went there

you know what's going to happen now, prepare for the alert squad.

[eqfan592]

67. And they'll probably win, which is sad, but it is what it is.

It's OK for them to call us paranoid lunatics only looking to shoot somebody, but show the obvious comparison between their tactics and that of certain far-right wing orgs and you've somehow crossed the line.

[bamacrat]

66. FALSE OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[4th law of robotics]

75. Did you know they started giving social security to children?

Child in this case being anyone from birth to death.

[NCTraveler]

84. When did an 18 year old become a child.

I see more and more of this. 18 year olds are not children.

[glacierbay]

87. When I was 18

I was wandering around in the jungles of Vietnam heavily armed, the govt. certainly didn't consider me a child then.
I just don't see the point of this ruling.

[NCTraveler]

99. Maybe that is a part of it. My father was just over that age when he was in nam.

My mother was working her way through college starting at 18. Could be a reason why I cannot comprehend 18 as being a child. It was passed down to me from them. It really is something I can't understand. I was living on my own and making my own decisions at 18. That doesn't mean my parents weren't there for me at the drop of a hat. But since just before 18 the final decisions in my life were my own, and I owned them. If a healthy 18 year old needs to be cared for as a child, then the parents must be scrutinized as to how they raised their child.

[obamanut2012]

86. Your title is misleading, and on purpose

18 to 20-year-olds are not children, they are legally adults.

Regardless of where one stands on gun control and gun ownership, your header is not true.

[cthulu2016]

96. Self-styled propagandists view all others with contempt

The purpose of the headline is to deceive, and the assumption is that the reader will not click the link.

A very bad OP all around.

[Yul A]

89. I wonder why other countries think we're fucking insane?

[glacierbay]

91. Do tell us why. nt.

[cthulu2016]

100. You mean because some of us call 20 year-olds children?

[hack89]

95. Yet in most states an 18 year old can legally OWN and POSSESS a handgun

they can obtain it through a private sale or as a gift. They are prohibited by Federal law from buying one from a federally licensed firearms dealer.


http://smartgunlaws.org/category/state-minimum-age-purchase-possess-guns/

[eqfan592]

98. Underscoring how this law and ruling makes even less sense... (nt)

[gollygee]

104. You should probably just edit your subject line

because no one will be able to discuss the actually issue so long as you're calling legal adults "children."

[ileus]

107. Someone was trying to allow minors the right to buy handguns?

[obamanut2012]

113. No, unless one thinks 18, 19, and 20 year olds are minors

The OP's title is misleading on purpose, and has effectively shut down any possible meaningful dialogue on this.

[ileus]

116. 18,19,20 kids maybe, but otherwise legal adults...where did the OP get chillin's from?

the faux poutrage is strong with this one.



Something tells me we've been had.

[obamanut2012]

120. I guess from thin air