General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe GOP's Only Answer to School Shootings Didn't Help in Uvalde
The line has gone from crisis PR spin to Republican Party dogma. But while the good guy with a gun mantra has the ring of tough guy common sense, the empirical evidence suggests armed cops and civilians do less than nothing to deter mass shooters.
Of course, this is Texas. Its not like potential good guys with guns were thin on the ground in Uvalde. Law enforcement actually engaged the shooter before he got into the elementary school. Indeed, as the Austin American-Statesman reported, it was actually a school guarda good guy with a gunwho confronted and failed to prevent the shooters entry. For years, though, Texas has encouraged teachers to pack heat. In the wake of a 2018 shooting at a high school in Santa Fe, Texas, Gov. Greg Abbott signed legislation that encouraged schools to do exactly what Ken Paxton now demands. It mattered little back then that Abbott was responding to killings at a school that already had two armed guards and a plan to put guns in the hands of teachers.
Last year, a group of public health scholars published a study in the Journal of the American Medical Association examining 133 school shootings from 1980 to 2019. An armed guard was present in about a quarter of the incidents in the study. Those schools actually suffered death rates nearly three times higher than schools without armed guards. Similarly, a 2020 review of gun policy research by the RAND Corporation think tank found no evidence that the presence of more guns had any effect on gun violence. Criminologists at Texas State University found that unarmed staff or the shooters themselves are far more likely to bring a school shooting to an end than someone with a gun returning fire.So-called good guys with guns fail to effectively deter or end mass shootings for a variety of tactical and psychological reasons.
So-called good guys with guns fail to effectively deter or end mass shootings for a variety tactical and psychological reasons. For one thing, its actually very hard to shoot straight in a situation like a mass shooting. RAND analysts have found that even highly trained NYPD officers only hit their intended target in 19 percent of gunfire exchanges. Winning a gunfight with a shooter only becomes more difficult when the perpetrator carries a semi-automatic rifle like an AR-15, as the Uvalde suspect and many others have done. These weapons have a much longer range and are far more accurate than the kinds of pistols typically used by police and civilian concealed carriers, allowing shooters to keep responders far enough away that their own weapons will be of little use. The Uvalde gunman, for instance, managed to overpower two officers whom he encountered on his way to the elementary school.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/05/gop-school-uvalde-shooting-response-guys-with-guns.html
Mister Ed
(5,926 posts)Last edited Thu May 26, 2022, 05:27 AM - Edit history (1)
In Buffalo, an armed security guard was killed when he fired on the gunman in the grocery store. His pistol was no match for the military-grade rifle and body armor of the murderer.
The armed security guard at the scene of the Pulse disco massacre was similarly ineffective against the onslaught.
I believe Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland FL also had armed security guards?
And so on, and so on, and so on...
SunSeeker
(51,545 posts)When the sheriffs heard the rapid fire of the assault rifle, they stayed outside the grounds. They were dismissed from their jobs for that, but later reinstated, with back pay.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9579455/Judge-rules-two-deputies-stood-Parkland-school-massacre-rehired.html
And former Marjorie Stoneman Douglas security officer Scot Peterson, who refused to enter the buildings when he heard the shots, was charged with neglect for not entering.school.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/former-parkland-security-officer-scot-peterson-charged-neglect-not-entering-n1013831
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)would solve the problem.
In gunfights, you have to find your weapon, arm it, aim it, and shoot it-- which means finding a target. You almost never get the chance if you're not first on the draw and any cop or combat veteran knows this. The Old West didn't allow guns in town limits because they knew perfectly well that the good guy with the gun in the bar where the fight broke out wouldn't even know there was a fight until someone was dead.
In earlier days, a swordfight wasn't the fun duel we see in the movies. It was a quick contest to see who could deliver a killing blow, and rarely lasted more than a few seconds.
Nowadays, the bad guy has an automatic weapon that can fire as fast as he can pull the trigger, faster if it's modified to automatic. A 38 special has absolutely no chance against it.
Myself, I think back 5th grade those many years ago, and we had the silly "drop and cover" exercises, but we knew they were bullshit. Seeing the teacher wearing a gun would be terrifying.
callous taoboy
(4,584 posts)After the Santa Fe school mass shooting, our school district invited the resource officer who was on duty that day at Santa Fe HS to come speak at our opening invocation. It was a ghoulish opening for our school year. He described in graphic detail what he saw and experienced. He was incapacitated almost right away. His forearm was completely ripped apart and he was bleeding out in the hall as the shooter did the deed. I learned two things from that day: Be afraid and prepared, and how to "stop the bleed" in the stop the bleed training that took place in the afternoon session. This is where we're at.
Irish_Dem
(46,767 posts)You are on the front line.
callous taoboy
(4,584 posts)ancianita
(36,009 posts)That gunman didn't overpower those two officers; those two officers didn't do their job properly of disarming him. They could have shot him in the legs, cuffed and arrested him before he even got past them.
SunSeeker
(51,545 posts)ancianita
(36,009 posts)The good guys should never have allowed him near the school door. That's their job as good guys. So how good are they, really.
SunSeeker
(51,545 posts)Multiple police officers who supposedly have significant training regarding engagement with criminals weren't willing to rush into Robb Elementary to restore order, how can teachers (even when armed) be expected to do that? https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16730214
ancianita
(36,009 posts)That's why police training has to get better. It should try for the excellence level of training that teachers get.
Teachers are the scholars of their communities. They are not the stop-gap backup plan for solving community problems, and they are not to be used as punching bags for everything wrong with the country.
The Bopper
(184 posts)You really have 2 issues here. 1 in just about any other state, a guy walking around with an AR or AK would result in immediate action BUT in Texas its legal and allowed. So recognition and action are in the wait until the poop hits the fan mode. #2, as we seen with the kid in Wisconsin the cops take the beating on this if they would have handled it any different. I have no doubt they would have been fired, if they fired 1st.
ancianita
(36,009 posts)No I don't. You want me to have two issues. It doesn't matter if he's walking around with guns on him until they tell him to stop on school grounds and he doesn't. Schools are federal safety zones. That means that whatever is legal in Texas, if he disobeys a policeman, the police can still under Texas law use due force to stop him from what he's doing, which is attempting to enter a school armed.
You can have no doubts all you want. If they fired first? Don't make me laugh.
Too fucking bad cops would "take a beating" on this. They were already doing nothing to stop the guy and deserved to lose their jobs for that alone. Jobs aren't more important than children. Enforcement theater is not what the people of Uvelda pay their taxes for.
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,489 posts)the USA's emotion-free right-wing sector neglects to mention massive damage to quality education and community building that's done by having weapons and guards present in our schools. That damage is due to fear and suspicion created in children's vulnerable minds, both toward armed personnel and toward each other.
My daughter the fifth-grade teacher says the environment in our schools must be free of fears and be quiet, peaceful and nurturing spaces in order for kids to learn and become caring, functional members of society. You can't do those things in an armed prison.
We need not only much stricter gun laws and regulation, but we also need to rebuild our school facilities so that no weapons of any kind can ever enter learning spaces.
RIP to the innocent little ones in Texas......
KY..............
brer cat
(24,544 posts)K&R
Chipper Chat
(9,675 posts)And he had not shot anybody and I killed him I would be charged with murder
IronLionZion
(45,403 posts)and completely ignoring the armed school officer shooting at the shooter before he entered the school. Their answer to everything is more guns. If that doesn't work, then more guns. Rinse off the blood and repeat.
SunSeeker
(51,545 posts)The shooter at Uvalde had an AR-15 and SEVEN 30-round magazines. It took dozens of police ONE HOUR to stop him. And they were only able to do it because the Border Patrol SWAT tactical team showed up with a BALLISTIC SHIELD that a whole column of police and SWAT officers went in carrying, and the SWAT officer at the head of the column standing behind the shield still got shot before taking down the killer.
So good luck to some underpaid school resource officer trying to stop an AR-15. The school resource officer at Marjory Stoneman Douglas didn't even try. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/former-parkland-security-officer-scot-peterson-charged-neglect-not-entering-n1013831
IronLionZion
(45,403 posts)their online loonies are already claiming that school resource officers need to be combat veterans with AR-15 style guns.