I have thinking a lot about what they mean by "mentally ill" and guns?

[imanamerican63]

So, am I to believe that shooting a wildlife animal with an AR-15 for sport, is not insane?

Am I to believe that a person who is a responsible person can buy as make AR-15 as they want, is not insane?

But for a lone gunman to shoot up a movie theater, a school, a mall, a grocery store, a church, a family get together, etc is not important enough to change those laws, because his is “mentally insane”?


There are so many holes in the “mentally ill” excuse. I rather they find a solution than their lame excuses! We all have demons, but for God sake! Take away they military weapons out of everyone’s hand! That is why they are “military style weapons”, not public use!

[LakeVermilion]

1. True: We all have demons!

Scary: We all have some that aren't discovered.

[imanamerican63]

2. Exactly!

[Irish_Dem]

3. Using an assault rifle to kill animals is twisted, sick, sadistic.

I know hunters who love this part, torturing animals.

[PTWB]

25. Does the deer feel more pain...

If shot with a .308 from an AR vs shot with a .308 from a bolt action?

[Ziggysmom]

4. I cared for many people with severe mental illness, caused by disorders in the brain, when

I worked as a nurse years ago. Schizophrenics, bipolar disorder sufferers and those with severe depression never came across as evil or wanting to harm anyone. They were fighting their own internal demons. Trying to blame mental illness for mass shootings is bullshit. It's the assault rifles dammit!

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/26/1101274322/uvalde-ar-15-style-rifle-history-shooter-mass-shooting

The following is a partial list of when an AR-15-style weapon was used in a mass shooting:

Feb. 14, 2018: Shooting at Stoneman Douglas High School shooting in Florida leaves 17 people dead.
Oct. 1, 2017: The Las Vegas slaughter of 58 people.
Nov. 5, 2017: The Sutherland Springs, Texas, church shooting that claimed 26 lives.
June 12, 2016: The Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando, Fla., that left 49 dead.
Dec. 2, 2015: The San Bernardino, Calif., shooting that killed 14 people.
Dec. 14, 2012: The shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut that took 27 lives.

[Alice Kramden]

6. Agree - they use it as a diversionary tactic

"Mental illness" is not the issue.

[TigressDem]

5. Ah.... there is a lot of room between stupid/irrational and mentally ill/insane.

Mental illness is defined by the medical community and is actually codified in a book that is updated frequently.

As far as I know although it seems highly unethical and irrational, shooting wildlife with an AR-15 isn't a classified mental illness.

People buy more shoes, cars and food than they can ever use, but while stupid and wasteful, it's their money and we don't legally police people against their own stupidity.


WHY are people pointing out mental illness as part of the problem?

Because Regan stripped the country of mental health facilities and many of these people are slipping through the cracks and canyons that his "improvements to the system" have wrought. There would not BE as many people struggling with mental illness and turning to guns instead of counseling or being put in a safe place for a bit until they got over it.

SO while I believe that helping people get mentally stronger to resist the push by the Reich Wing (to go out and shoot someone if you are pissed about all the ways the government and people are not treating you right) is a valid suggestion, it isn't the full solution.

Those cops in Texas were afraid to face a lone shooter with an AK weapon.

If cops can't handle it, it doesn't belong in the hands of the public is a sane and rational response. However, we won't get that.

What we MIGHT get is special permits that spell out usage which (of course) does NOT include shooting unarmed school teachers and kids.

Limits on who can purchase extended clips and automatic weapons in the first place.

[H2O Man]

15. Interesting.

Very thoughtful response.

As far as I can remember, few mass-murderers -- the movie theater freak, for example -- had major mental illness. And even in that case, it did not reach the legal definition of not guilty due to "insanity," now a term used in court but not psychology. He knew right from wrong, as do all mass murderers.

Most of these people do have personality disorders. Severe ones, at that. And it seems a stretch that Amendment 2 is intended to protect their rights. Thus, I'd add semi-automatic weapons, along with the extended clips and automatic weapons you correctly note.

[TigressDem]

17. Yeah, if we can find a way to civil conversation and logical resolutions that work for all....

Then everyone can have some sort of win.

Gun owners don't want to be villains if they would never do these things. The rest of us are more concerned with the deaths than their precious feelings.

We have every right to be outraged and hurt to the core about losing innocent life over an over again. And there are places like here that those feelings can be expressed and fuel everyone to do what needs to be done.

And the courts wanting to make sure and hold people accountable so they can't wiggle out of their behavior by claiming the insanity defense does make sense on a certain level.

However, our first right is to LIFE and murder is against that right, so people who play with guns have to be held to at least as high a standard as 16 year olds who learn to drive.

AND we have seen over and over again that automatic weapons and extended clips are not needed by hunters of animals, only people who hunt and kill other people. It's time those items are fiercely restricted and those who use them monitored for good behavior.

Back to the "insanity" defense, if we put in a permit process that spells out what can and can't be done with a weapon, there isn't any wiggle room if someone outlines a plot to violate other people's right to life with their weapon. They haven't done the deed, then they don't get jail time, but the weapon goes away until they can prove they have come back to sane and rational thinking.

Gun insurance sets parameters of self regulation and proper behavior so that law enforcement can help prevent certain types of crime.

AND we could show the NON WHACKO Gun Owners as peaceful and responsible folk who pay their insurance and if they have no issues in a year, let them write it off in their taxes. Give them credit for good behavior in regards to gun ownership.

THEN those who aren't out murdering other people get validated and those who ARE misbehaving can be pulled up by the short hairs and it is happening to people because of what they did, not the fact they are gun owners.


WE NEED BALANCE so the other side can feel a part of our solution, instead of being thrown in with the criminals.

[H2O Man]

24. I want to thank you

for your thoughtful, insightful posts. Reminds me of how discussions went on this forum in the old days.

On facebook, I read with interest an argument between an old friend and a guy I've known for decades. My friend was advocating gun control, the other fellow is a typical racist, pro-gun type. For reasons unknown to me, my friend brought up David Koresh's guns. The two argued about that, which I thought displayed a lack of focus. So I said that virtualy every gun owner I know would agree that Amendment 2 is not intended to "protect" the rights of the shit-stains in Buffalo and Texas to conduct their rampages.

The other person agreed, with just a hint of an insult -- "no kidding," he said, before blaming Texas on sex education. So, again, I sought to re-focus: we can agree there are ways to reduce the access of deadly weapons to disturbed people. He agreed.

I'm old enough to remember the wisdom of the Civil Rights Movement's "Keep your eyes on the prize." We need to keep the conversation on preventing mass-murder ..... not on Koresh's philosophy, or sex education.

[TigressDem]

26. I am practicing these thoughts so I can talk to my son.

He is pro gun and drinking a lot of the koolaid.

But he also has kids who have been threatened by people with guns. Of course, he has a bigger gun, so he thinks it's not a full issue.

ANYWAY.

I had mentioned gun insurance to him at one point and he didn't hate it. I think he will especially like the part about the tax write off as it is a nod to the 2nd Amendment and those who are responsibly and respectfully practicing their right to have guns.

Probably since the police froze and couldn't unlock a door to save those kids until a border patrol guy ran to the school from the barber shop and pushed everyone into action because they were dealing with a kid who had an automatic weapon and over 1,500 bullets in extended magazines, I think I can talk to him about at least limiting those by special permit so those people sign an agreement to NOT use them in this fashion and are therefore guilty in a court of law if they plan or carry out such a crime. As they are violating the permit process and intend to use deadly force.

If they plan it, they are violating the permit terms and must surrender their guns and pay fines.

If they carry it out, the fact that they signed an agreement to not do that shows they were intentionally breaking the law and have no way to plead not guilty.

GIVE law enforcement and the courts the power to deal with these offenders instead of arming the people against the law.

Average citizens with guns for the most part are not going to shoot up the neighborhood if you don't let them have their guns while they are drunk or crazy.

Just like taking the car keys away from a person who has had to much to drink is a temporary solution for a temporary problem if it doesn't happen week after week, then keeping guns away from people who are over reacting with the urge to commit gun violence as a way to deal with life's stress, is also keeping that person and others safe from potentially life altering behavior.

[Delmette2.0]

16. This would be a great start as long as we open up free mental health

Information and counseling.

[TigressDem]

18. I am all for mental health improvements.

However, realistically, people who are this angry and entitled don't seek help until they hit bottom.

Taking away their guns and offering mental health help is ideal, but we first have to guard others from them by taking away the guns when the person can't be rational about using it.

Also by defining what is sane and rational behavior with a gun and what isn't with gun insurance allows for prevention of dangerous behavior by law enforcement and mental health agencies.

[LizBeth]

7. Telling how this particular mental illness affects mostly white, youngest of our men just stepping

into adulthood and no one else.

[haele]

19. Privliegcide. Similar to Affluenza, the patient has a skewed sense of Privilege.

Symptoms include a petulant rash consisting of the Seven Deadly Sins (Anger, Envy, Fear, Greed, Lust, Pride, and Sloth), a long lasting fever caused by Toxic Masculinity, and the mental inability to accept Personal Responsibility and try to find healing through that acceptance.

Privliegcide typically affects young people who are considered to have "dark triad" based personalities before their brains or emotional maturity fully forms; it presents itself as a suicidal decision to plan and do something the patient knows is totally wrong, but will allow them to go out in what they consider a defiant blaze of glory.

It has been observed that there is typically little to no actual trauma associated with the disease itself, but there are always warning signs the patient with this disease is going to do violence. It is highly contagious amongst other "dark triad" personalities.

This disease is associated with Nihilism, however, it has an active component to it that Nihilism itself does not have.

Haele
(This is just my take on the matter - most of these murderous little shits are perfectly willing to wallow in their poisonous muck of affronted selfishness until it gets too much for even them to bear, and then they have to find someone else to blame for their own shortcomings and "show them".)

[LizBeth]

21. +1. You are awesome.

[SYFROYH]

8. Hunters with ARs attempt to kill with one shot.

If you google AR and hunting deer or pigs youll see pictures of killed animals with one shot.

In many states hunting is restricted to guns with 5 round magazines and thats what they use with ARs

[sanatanadharma]

9. In the USA & elsewhere, there is an industry devoted to using words...

In the USA & elsewhere, there is an industry devoted to using words, images, and feelings for the purpose of motivating and changing peoples' behavior.
It is the advertising industry and it is quite successful; a success that belies the claims of some that words do not cause stochastic terrorism.

America is awash in pro-gun advertising. It should be little wonder when someone decides that indeed, the gun is a peace-maker.
Kids grow up surrounded by glorification of the existence of guns in magazines, supermarkets, movies, computer games, political talk, church services, school yard banter, ...
...the gun is ubiquitous in the American mind because society does not say enough.
We do not need the entertainment of ever increasingly realistic blood and gore in our living rooms, be it on TV or our couch.
Just stop!
Every gun defender/user/covet-er is the PROBLEM. Guns cause mental illness; given enough time or anger.

And yes I am shouting. :all out of f@cks to give:

[usonian]

10. Please read this post by brooklynite

https://democraticunderground.com/100216737897
'There's This Really Consistent Pathway': How Society Can Stop Mass Shooters Before They Act

It's a summary of a longer article, TOTALLY worth reading, at politico
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/27/stopping-mass-shooters-q-a-00035762
Two Professors Found What Creates a Mass Shooter. Will Politicians Pay Attention?

Mass shooters overwhelmingly fit a certain profile, say Jillian Peterson and James Densley, which means it’s possible to ID and treat them before they commit violence.

Opinion
My short takeaway is that most mass-shooters announce their intent in advance, often a cry for help, sometimes explicit.
But the notion of caring for others has been downplayed in our dystopian "everyone for himself" Ayn Rand society.
Mental problems are sign of "sin" and other judgmental baloney. Why this myth?

The lack of controls, and non-police response are part of a plan.
Autocrats thrive on chaos. Chaos means weak government, and that means little or no regulation of oligarchs. Period.
For an analysis of the autocratic plan to weaken and destroy government, read this great series on DKos
https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2021/8/6/2044226/-America-2021-The-Good-the-Bad-the-Ugly
“Democracy in Crisis: We’ve Been Headed Here for Decades.” Part 1of 8
Read all 8 to get the pattern in detail.

[harumph]

22. Very salient post. Parasites often create environments that are conducive

to their replication. Create lack of trust in institutions/agency/administration by underfunding them or placing a person in charge of the
agency that works against its mandate. Eliminate said institutions/agencies when negative public opinion is sufficient.
Outsource whatever service the public agency had done to a private company. Bust unions, bust the public school system, corrupt the
FDA, corrupt the dept. of agriculture, and of course, you cannot rely on police to protect you - hence you need a gun, etc.

[stopdiggin]

11. even if the parameters around 'mental illness'

were better drawn (which is an ENORMOUS ask in itself) - it would really serve very little purpose or utility in the situation we are confronting here. The whole idea that we are going to keep the means for mass murder out of the hands of a select few ... Pure fantasy.

[Curtis]

12. I would argue that...

Those who have to collect military grade weapons instead of actually joining the military, where they can have all the fun with those weapons that they wish, while children and other innocents are slaughtered have some sort of mental illness as it is

[ck4829]

13. It doesn't mean access to treatment, can tell you that right off the bat

[ancianita]

14. Mass murder with an assault weapon is the very definition of insane. Any insanity plea must not be

outside the reach of conviction and imprisonment for mass murder in ANY public arena.

The very existence of military grade assault weapons in civil society is for-profit insanity of corporate assault weapons manufacturers, themselves who themselves must be banned -- with strict shut-down penalties, and the arrest & conviction of their CEO's -- for allowing any of their product to reach any civil venue in the U.S.

Start at the capitalist source of the insanity. It's not enough to ban end users, or supply chain distribution "errors."

Start at the for profit source of the insanity -- the manufacturer owners themselves.

[RANDYWILDMAN]

20. Gun makers won't tell truth about AR15, huge profit margin for them...$$ over lives

$$$ over children
$$$ over pretty much everything in this country
It's sickening and has gotten worse
Reagan gave them permission to be selfish and cruel and not much has changed since.

[usonian]

23. Not sure if this is to the point, but

a disturbed boy in my home town burned down my elementary school. In the 50's or early 60's. Guns were hard to come by, and maybe that influenced his "plan"

I recall my science project being incinerated.


After hours, so no human injury.

Mafia town, by the way. Just not advertised as such.