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[fightforfreedom]

This message was self-deleted by its author (fightforfreedom) on Wed Jun 1, 2022, 02:01 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[jimfields33]

1. I think women should too

Have 100 percent spend a year in the military. It wouldn’t hurt. Start college at 19 or 20 would help them make clearer decisions on their future. Excellent.

[fightforfreedom]

2. Including women is a good idea. It is clear our culture has turned rotten.

Our culture lacks structure, discipline, personnel responsibility, respect. We need to try something different. What I suggested could not hurt.

I did not include women because thay don't usually become mass murderers, they are less violent than men in general. Young men without hope can turn violent.

[Demsrule86]

48. There have been mass murder perpetrated by veterans...so that is just bullshit.

What you suggest would many people who simply are not cut out for this and for kids who are bullied, LGBTQ, or women, it would be a nightmare. Joining the military except in desperate times...maybe we are at war, should always be voluntary. I believe it violates the constitution as well.

"Mandating national service violates the constitution and would infringe on the freedom to choose what to do with our lives.
The 13th Amendment to the US Constitution states, “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States.”

While the government has the authority to “raise and support Armies,” there is no constitutional basis for compelling citizens to perform public service."

[HUAJIAO]

61. BRAVO A THOUSAND TIMES !!!!!!!!!!!!

Why should all 18 year-olds be taught how to blindly follow authoritarians and how to kill?

Teach them music instead.

[lostnfound]

25. Women already have not enough freedom, plus too much rape in military

Last edited Wed Jun 1, 2022, 09:02 AM - Edit history (4)

Forcing a woman into the service where her odds of being raped or sexually assaulted are almost 25% and suicide increases by 73%…
I knew a very bright strong gutsy woman who went to the Air Force Academy. Next time I saw her…I could tell at first glance they had broken something. But at least that was her choice to be there.

If she has plans for career and children, she is already disadvantaged for time. Time is not on her side. People say it’s okay that women don’t get paid as much because many of them take time off for children. She does more of the housework, has less free time, and is more likely to end up caregiver for aging parents or disabled children.

Men can wait until they are in late 30s or 40s to consider relationships and children. Plus, exposure to toxic chemicals can be a teratogen which is a hazard for many military personnel.

You can think it’s equal, but it isn’t. Women are often in service their whole lives. Depending on the course of their lives, those few years after high school may be the only feeling of extended freedom they get until they are in their 50s, or later.

[Demsrule86]

49. Absolutely not...no one gets signed up for indentured servitude against ther will.

[MichMan]

3. How is requiring people to enter the military not a draft?

[anarch]

4. it's not a draft if everyone has to do it

then it's just an obligation as a citizen; sort of like jury duty

pacifists could opt to serve in some kind of non-military capacity, supporting engineers in modernizing/maintaining infrastructure, or providing some kind of civil service.

[fightforfreedom]

8. Good post.

[brooklynite]

16. Sending pacifists to "service in some kind of non-military capacity" ignores the OPs claim...

The claim is that being in the military somehow builds "character" for young people who've grown up without it. I find that argument seriously flawed, as well as highly arbitrary as to which "character" is good for people. I grew up well educated, loved by family and friends, and exposed to a wide range of cultures and lifestyles. I can say with confidence I would NOT do well in a military structure.

[anarch]

23. non-combat personnel would also be required to qualify with a rifle, etc.

to the best of their ability.

And I would venture to suggest that in this imaginary communist utopia I am describing here, since there would be no enforced hierarchy and everyone's material needs including physical and mental healthcare would be seen to as much as possible, that there would be alternatives available for neurodivergent people or really anyone who finds the whole "SIR YES SIR!" exaggerated warrior training thing to be idiotic.

[brooklynite]

27. In which case, where is the character building coming from?

One major problem is young people understanding work responsibilities. If I sleep in and always arrive late at my house-building group, what happens?

[anarch]

30. presumably all your friends would make you feel like an ass for it

and you'd have to work the later shift instead?

the whole point would be to instill values of community and cooperation in everyone, like we at least used to try to do back in the "Great Society" days with primary education--I believe people in general would want to do their part to help their community thrive, and people should feel personally involved in and part of their communities, thus giving them a sense of self-worth and usefulness, and if nothing else keeping people busy doing some of the socially necessary labor that nobody is doing at this point, because our priority as a society is not to improve everyone's lives, but to make sure that rich people keep gathering more wealth, as that is apparently the only way we effectively measure the "health" of our society as it is now.

One way to make people understand work responsibilities is to make them responsible for doing some actually useful work; I am an optimist and I think people generally want to do good and be helpful in the world; it's the fucked up priorities of our current system that drive people to cheat and steal from each other, because it's "you vs. them" rather than "all of us together."

[brooklynite]

32. And why would I care what my "friends" think?

In all probability, they're not my friends, they're total strangers from somewhere else.

I believe people in general would want to do their part to help their community thrive

I would agree, but in that case, they don't need character building.

[anarch]

33. indeed, why should any of us care what our neighbors think?

or anyone else, right? fuck 'em all, I'm gonna stand alone and be my own island, dependent on nobody etc. etc.

I'm talking about everyone doing this within their own community, and what you are saying is a big part of the problems we have now, if you feel your neighbors are strangers and nothing to do with you.

I suppose part of my commie scheme here would be that only people who do their part as citizens would be able to vote, so there's some kind of reward there aside from the intangibles of not feeling alienated from your work and your community.

Aside from that, communities eventually have ways of dealing with antisocial assholes, if people are determined to be that way.

[brooklynite]

52. I'm talking about YOUR neighbors...

There are millions of young men who grow up with no structure in their lives

No, I don't think these people care about their neighborhood; that's why you apparently think these folks need mandated character building.

[Demsrule86]

39. It sounds more like indoctrination...and what if the kid doesn't want to do it...I suppose Jail and

other shitty consequences. Well, it won't happen thankfully.

[anarch]

62. what do you think it is we have now?

you have described exactly the situation we currently live under, except instead of "indoctrination" into how to be useful members of society, we get indoctrinated to be cogs in a giant machine that we have no stake in.

[HUAJIAO]

64. "...the whole point would be to instill values of community and cooperation in everyone"

Then teach music in the schools! (See my post somewhere below)

no guns, no screeching authoritarians, no brain washing... sorry but that is my view.

[anarch]

87. yes! but not as the only thing anyone should learn

I'm not saying everyone needs to take up arms, and I think we need to do much better at funding our schools and teaching music and arts, and providing structure to society that way, as you are saying.

However I still think it's only responsible for everyone to contribute to the common defense and common welfare to the extent that they are able and willing; that's my view. I am a terrible authoritarian, but "my yoke is gentle" as they say.

Doesn't matter really what I think, we're all going to die in the coming climate cataclysm anyway.

[Demsrule86]

41. Absolutely not.

[Captain Zero]

90. Most perps wouldn't pass military entrance exam

I worked in mental health services. Had many clients 14-27. Males. Many of them voiced a desire for military service or to work in LEO. NONE OF THEM WOULD EVER PASS THE PREREQUISITE TESTING. Most of them had a fascination with guns, weapons, and first person shooter gaming. I had guys failing tests at recruiters offices and at license branches left and right. They also were seldom on track for even the least gradient diploma and none of them ever succeeded at GED. ALMOST all of them had some violent ideation. If anything came of this idea for military service I would say use military entrance exam and driver's license beginner exams as a screen. If they failed those and a test for responsible gun ownership, those are your guys to red flag for no weapons sales. You really don't want them having any kind of gun. On edit I will also say I don't believe Kyle Rittenhouse nor this Uvalde gunman could ever pass the recruitment tests for the military.

[Demsrule86]

43. Honestly this is really terrible idea and honestly unAmerican. By what right can a kid be forced to

join some quasi bullshit military operation for 'character' improvement...who gets to decide what that means? It is called indoctrination. And absolutely not something I would ever agree to.

[anarch]

63. I sure hope if you have kids that you home-schooled them in that case

so you could indoctrinate them yourself

[Demsrule86]

75. When you have kids, you parent them...not indoctrinate them. And you are talking about taking

away choice of how they want to live from young people. You don't have that right. It is unconstitutional IMHO. Certainly, it is unAmerican. I absolutely am against it. This is just a get off my lawn kind of post...hand wringing...the next generation will destroy blah blah...same old same old. But by what right do sign up young people for what is essentially indentured servitude of course many will be jailed for running away. It is a terrible idea.

[anarch]

89. I don't know, it seems like a lot of parents do indoctrinate their kids

maybe that's just my perspective.

anyway, in my imaginary scheme here participation would all certainly be voluntary--people could choose not to take part, and they'd still get their basic needs taken care of and have access to whatever education resources they want, etc., they just wouldn't have a franchise to vote--if that's not important to them, I don't give a shit what they do as long as they don't harm anyone else, they can go live in the woods and refuse to talk to anyone, they can take up yodeling as a profession or just climb mountains all day, whatever, but if they wanted to be full citizens they'd need to sign up to do their minimal service to the community, in whatever way is best suited to their personal talents and wishes.

whatever; if we don't dispense with capitalism, we will never really address the climate crisis and then it won't matter after another couple hundred years.

[Demsrule86]

98. I do not agree at all. We live Democracy / Republic. Forcing folks to do xyz is something a

a dictatorship would do...and who will decide what community values even mean? I am completely against such a thing. It is indentured servitude...bringing the weight of the government to force a person to do something that he/she doesn't want to do. We are either a free country or not.

[HUAJIAO]

65. BRAVO BRAVO !!!

[Demsrule86]

76. Thank you!

[Voltaire2]

46. No it's still a draft.

It’s a universal draft. We’ve had those before too.

[fightforfreedom]

7. It would be a type of one year military school.

You are not joining the military for 3,4 years. You are right, people would call it a draft. I don't care. They can call it what they want.

[Demsrule86]

38. How about we call it a really really bad idea. We are a Republic and not being forced into

the military is part of being free.

[Demsrule86]

44. Sorry...a year in a kids life...NO. It won't happen anyway. I suppose it is silly to argue about it.

[HUAJIAO]

66. NOBODY should be forced to go to "military school."

[Ferryboat]

68. Or a period of national service based on the CCC Model?

Work on park infrastructure or maintenance and learn first aid. Teach firearm safety. Civics.

Mandatory service either military or a form of national service. For those who commit for longer period of time some sort of payout. School tuition or ?

[Demsrule86]

79. No, it is still slavery. And we don't the right to inflict that on young people by force.

[Ferryboat]

86. How is mandatory service in some form slavery?

Many countries some we hold to an ideal standard of what this country should emulate have some form of service.

How is teaching all citizens first aid, basic skills a bad idea?

[Demsrule86]

100. We are a Republic and I don't care what other countries do...when the word mandatory is used than

you are talking about slavery or indentured servitude...the person has no choice. I am completely against this. We have no right to force young people to 'volunteer' for some program or another...absolutely not.

[JI7]

5. There are a lot of violent people that have served in the military

[jimfields33]

26. We have over 330 million people in this country.

Of course we’ve had violent people in the military. We’ve also had them in every segment of society. 330 million people is a lot. Part of our problem is we are too large a population. We are always compared to other countries with significantly smaller populations and are shown how bad we are. Only China and India are larger and their whole structure is different then ours.

[MissMillie]

6. While it may be useful in a myriad of ways...

there's something about "mandatory" anything, in a free country, that rubs me the wrong way.

And you gotta know, there will be elites that can get their kids out of it. (We all know that sort of stuff happens.) It will end up being "mandatory" only for those without money or power.

[fightforfreedom]

10. I didn't say it would be perfect. Nothing is.

Our free country needs a change. Are we so free we can't do things to save ourselves, make things better. That's what it looks like now.

There are lots of things in our country that are mandatory.

[USALiberal]

12. Please list what other things are mandatory!!

[fightforfreedom]

15. You got to be kidding.

Nothing in your life is mandatory? You are truly free.

[USALiberal]

28. Well if it's so easy list me five.

[USALiberal]

103. Example?

[MissMillie]

20. maybe carrots and sticks are what's needed

but then again, those w/o money/power/status end up taking the hit.

[KarenS]

9. speaking as a 'military brat',,,,, there are other things,,,,

why not require/expect a year of service from both sexes. There is the peace corps,,,, is there a domestic version of the peace corps? volunteering in some form,,, like medical, educational, nutritional? I agree that a lot of folks would benefit from learning self-discipline and serving others,,,, I disagree with only military (think war-machine) service. Doesn't Israel have such a requirement?

[fightforfreedom]

13. I agree, I was just giving one example.

Some type of one year service that teaches young people what they will need to know to handle the adult world. right now we are just throwing millions of young people to the wolves. They haven't been taught anything. They grow up into adults who don't know a dam thing.

[KarenS]

18. "throwing them to the wolves" yes,,,,

I always felt that public school both junior high and high school should do less college prep and more life prep,,,, basic cooking, cleaning, mending, household budgets, an introduction to taxes both how to do them and what they are used for,,,, I dunno.

[Demsrule86]

36. No...what make you think that anyone has a right to steal years from young people and order

them to do what you think they should...absolutely awful idea. And I am surprised that anyone agrees with such a thing on this Forum.

[USALiberal]

11. No thanks! Nt

[Arkansas Granny]

14. For a long time I have thought that every young adult should be required

to perform 1 or 2 years of public service. It doesn't have to be military training. It could be public works projects, working in National Parks, teaching assistants, etc.

[Demsrule86]

35. NO and no. This is supposed to be a free country and what you describe is endured servitude.

[catrose]

42. That's been my thought, that everyone does some kind of service as a citizen

[Karma13612]

17. For those who are already MOSTLY well adjusted at 18, or who are mentally and physically

Not strong enuf for a confrontational in-your-face rough-and-tough bootcamp experience, I think you would need some sort of alternative.

Trust me when I say that I would not have survived a year of bootcamp military training. I am a pacifist who was ‘trained’ by daily and summer chores. A strict up-bringing by a male parent who had been in the Army. A female mom who was the exact opposite. I needed life experience and would have benefited from a gap-year (that’s what they call it in England at least). Instead, I embarked on a college path that saw me try 3 different majors over 6 years. Eventually graduating as a pharmacist. I only practiced for 10 years. Then I started a life-long search for what I really enjoyed doing.

So, I made bad, naive career choices very early on. But, I would have failed a militarized, combative, training style experience and that would have made me feel more like a failure the rest of my life. I remember some hard-ass gym teachers in grade school who belittled me about my weight. They didn’t realize the home family dynamic or they wouldn’t have berated me.

Nope, not everyone can be shoved into molds and expected to shine. I am aware that women in some foreign countries are expected to do military service as well. I don’t agree with that. If a woman wants to join, and train, and serve, that is fine. My opinion is that there should be much more visible presence of Foreign service recruitment efforts in educational institutions for those of us who are curious and want to be involved, but only know about the options of weapons and strict military physically demanding body-focused combat roles.

I grew up in a small, conservative area of the country. I had very little influence from the outside world so was clueless about options when I graduated from HS. I needed a gap year most definitely. But, the military would have been a huge mistake.

[48656c6c6f20]

19. Of the few that might benefit

Weighed against the ones that would absolutely despise it, why would I want to militarize someone with problems? Oh right, they could join the police force.

[HUAJIAO]

67. THANK YOU.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

21. If we want to provide structure to people's lives, there are a lot better ways than requiring them

to serve in the military.

[Deuce]

22. Make your bed....

[USALiberal]

31. It was a really stupid idea in my opinion, silly as hell

[Deuce]

40. You are entitled to your opinion...but it could be helpful for some!

[AndyS]

24. The military doesn't make you a 'man'.

It makes you more of what you already are.

Hence the Oath Keepers . . .

[HUAJIAO]

69. "The military doesn't make you a 'man'."

Well said !!

[twodogsbarking]

29. I say

fuck that idea.

[HUAJIAO]

70. Much more succinct than my reply about studying music.

Bravo!!

[twodogsbarking]

72. Why thanks.

[Demsrule86]

34. Absolutely not. You are either a free country or not. No coerced military training.

[spanone]

37. This sounds like it's right out of the fifties when I was growing up...no thanks.

[Voltaire2]

45. Fuck the draft. NT.

[Floyd R. Turbo]

54. FTD ✌🏻

[BlackSkimmer]

56. I haven't seen anyone here complaining about Ukraine's draft.

In fact, I saw people on this forum call men who left the country rather than fight "cowards."

Read it right here.

[HUAJIAO]

71. TOTALLY,TOTALLY comparing apples and giraffes.

[kcr]

96. Wow, did I missed the Russian invasion of the US?

I know I've been avoiding a lot depressing media lately, but I think I would have heard about that.

[milestogo]

47. No way.

[Girard442]

50. If you're forced to be somewhere and it's illegal for you to leave...

...you're basically incarcerated.

On edit:
If this is such a good idea, then let's do it for everybody. Every year, have a lottery and the losers have to give up a year of their life.

That medical practice looking promising? Well, it'll be there when you get out.

[llmart]

51. Absolutely not.

Just what we need in this country - militarization of all the young men. Or women. Wear a uniform. Carry a gun. Do what the commander says with no thoughts of your own. Support your country right or wrong.

Jaysus! So much for the anti-authoritarianism we rail against on DU.

I have no desire to learn how to carry and use a gun. When I was 18 I was a perfectly responsible adult with a mind of my own.

[Xoan]

53. Why not medical training?

Far more useful in the long run. IMO

[twodogsbarking]

55. There are many beneficial things that could be implemented.

Certainly medical training is one. Even a voluntary program that couples
education with practical training while working is a consideration.

[Autumn]

57. Pass on that. It may have worked for you, maybe you needed it but I see a lot of young

men who have served and they came back worse, some with mental issues. Discipline, respect, personnel responsibility are taught by people in a young person life.

[Demsrule86]

60. I absolutely agree with you! Nice to be on the same side...hehe.

[DinahMoeHum]

58. Sorry, but the military folks themselves don't want this.

That is, they don't want to waste their time or money training people coerced into being there.

There is a saying among them that the worst volunteer is still better than the best conscript.

[HUAJIAO]

59. I do not agree. I believe that is a horrible idea.

I think all boys and girls should have to study music (piano at least), at some level, through high school. This would solve many of society's problems, not all for sure, but many. Studying music, in addition to all the benefits listed below, develops a person's humanity and connection to the world around them.

https://www.pianodreamers.com/benefits-of-playing-piano/

https://www.lindebladpiano.com/blog/benefits-of-playing-piano

https://nafme.org/important-benefits-of-music-in-our-schools/

[twodogsbarking]

74. I can go for that.

Bravo.

[Calista241]

73. While I'm not down with military service for everyone

I am down for a year, or two, of national service. Whether it's building public works, cleaning the environment, working with youth, or anything like that. Working to make our country a better place should be an ideal of all Americans.

It would instill a sense of pride in many people, and give all of us a sense of having contributed.

[Demsrule86]

78. I am not. Is this a democracy or not? By what right do we have to force our young people to

live by our dictates...like all the generations before them, they have to walk their own path. We have no right to subject our kids to indentured servitude for any amount of time. And with a divided country it would be as dangerous as hell for minorities, LGBTQ, and women.

[NYC Liberal]

83. Agree. Forced work sounds very similar to a prison chain-gang.

In fact, I don't see how it's much different, other than perhaps you go back to your own home at the end of the day.

[Calista241]

84. In 1933, FDR established the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC)

It was the most popular of New Deal programs at the time, and at its height, employed over 300,000 people, many of them Native Americans. Nobody is saying they have to work for free, but offering an opportunity like this can only help our society.

From Wikipedia:
Sources written at the time claimed an individual's enrollment in the CCC led to improved physical condition, heightened morale, and increased employability. The CCC also led to a greater public awareness and appreciation of the outdoors and the nation's natural resources, and the continued need for a carefully planned, comprehensive national program for the protection and development of natural resources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps

[kcr]

95. It won't instill a sense of pride if it's forced

All this will do is widen the gap of inequality even further. The CCC was voluntary.

[fightforfreedom]

99. Like I said I was just giving one example, an idea.

Any type of national service would be a good idea. I sure did get a conversation going. As far as my one year of military training idea, that is not the regular military. It would be separate, something different. It would be more like a school. It would not about teaching kids how to fire a weapon.

[VGNonly]

77. No thanks

[PufPuf23]

80. Bad idea. A pant load. nt

[yellowcanine]

81. Oh hell no. There are better ways.

Such as Outward Bound, Civilian Conservation Corps, Peace Corps, etc. We do not need to train men an women in killing to teach discipline.

[Chainfire]

82. I am glad that it worked out for the OP, but military service is not for everyone.

The Navy was good for me too, in a similar situation as the OP, but I am not everyone. Universal military service would never be implemented is such a way that the sons and daughters of the wealthy would be required to serve. There would always be bone spurs for those who could afford it.

The other issue is is that if you give the military a pool of tens of millions of trained troops, some general would find a place to use them. If you own a Caddy, you are going to want to drive it.

It would be more beneficial to the nation and the young people, and less costly to provide them with free college education or free vocational training and apprenticeship programs. Would you rather train the youth of the nation to fight or think?

[rampartc]

85. i'll start by saying i agree with you

and also with @anarch on alternative service in necessary occupations.

and also whoever said "women too." this is the 21st century after all.

americans graduating high school are simply (with a few exceptions) not physically fit or self disciplined enough to serve in the military. if we ever did need to conscript or call up volunteers it would take too long to get them in shape to do the jobs that would be necessary.

[ck4829]

88. How about we *STOP* the militarization of our culture? Maybe a year of pacifist training

First aid training, conflict resolution, logic, philosophy, appreciation and basic knowledge of arts and sciences, literacy (because I know the literacy rate isn't 100%), tutoring young people, etc.

[Maeve]

92. Agreed

Humanize and socialize, don't teach people to take orders unquestioningly.
Discipline does not have to be military; and too many have taken military training to bad places.

[Gore1FL]

91. I understand where you are going with this, I don't think mandating military service is the answer.

[former9thward]

93. All good points.

But women should be included. They have many of the same issues young men have. But I would not put either in the professional military. The military should not and can not be social workers. They should do duty in a mandatory civilian service group. If they refuse then no access to any government services. No voting, no drivers license, no student loans, no nothing that the government has anything to do with.

[fightforfreedom]

105. I agree, I was not clear on what I meant about a type of military training.

Of course I did not mean the regular military. there would no weapons training, etc. You have to be clear when you post because people will take off and run with it. Like many have with this post.

I should have said any type of one year service. Kids would have choices and it would help millions of them. Of course some people will scream, Your taking my freedom away! What a joke.

[kcr]

94. This is never going to happen in a million years

And I'm very glad for it. Horrible idea.

[madville]

97. Majority of 18 year olds can't qualify for military service

Obesity, criminal history, medical conditions, hand/neck/face tattoos, ear gauges, excessive debt, drug history, can’t pass the ASVAB, etc. Last I saw only something like 30% of 18 year olds can qualify for military service.

[fightforfreedom]

101. I should have been more clear in my post.

I should have said a one year type military school unlike the regular military. No weapons training, just a school were kids could learn about discipline and lots of classes to teach them how to handle the adult world. I should have added any type of one year service would be a good idea. We could give young people choices and chances. To tell you the truth I think a lot of young people would love to have a chance, options, to do something. Many don't have a clue or an option.

[BarackTheVote]

102. Yeah, no.

That is some crazy authoritarian BS. What a great way to instill jingoistic nationalism into the entire population. Hard pass.

[fightforfreedom]

106. WOW! Talk about twisting my post. You make me sound like a Nazi.

Lighten up.

[Hortensis]

104. 18-year-old men is scientifically an oxymoron. Adult brain development

isn't reached for several more years, around 25. Those turned 18 aren't even halfway through adolescence.

According to these criminologists who study school shootings, 19 by their definition:

...all of the mass school shootings in our database were carried out by men or boys. And the average age of those involved in carrying out the attacks was 18.

For the purposes of our database, mass public shootings are defined as incidents in which four or more victims are murdered with at least one of those homicides taking place in a public location and with no connection to underlying criminal activity, such as gangs or drugs.

https://theconversation.com/what-we-know-about-mass-school-shootings-in-the-us-and-the-gunmen-who-carry-them-out-183812

And regarding ALL mass shootings according to Rockefeller Institute:

95.7% of perpetrators were male
Average age of mass shooters 33.2 years old
74.6% of perpetrators used handguns
54.8% of perpetrators were white (Me: by far the largest racial group in the U.S.)

By Everytown Research's definition, "any incident in which four or more people are shot and killed, excluding the shooter," the United States experiences an average of 19 mass shootings every year. 61% occur in private homes, 9% in and around homes.