General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCan someone explain why more of my Latino brethren in Florida are not
angrier at De Santis for pushing his anti-CRT stance since it will also impact how we marginalize Latinos? Except for the Cuban-Americans of course. That holiday for aggrieved victims of communism was a nod to his own people.
BigmanPigman
(51,565 posts)Apparently Latinos are leaning GQP more than even 4 years ago and the fear of "communism/socialism" is the main factor. I had no idea it was this bad. I don't understand why people vote against their own best interests.
XanaDUer2
(10,496 posts)Grew up there in 70s and 80s. Cubans are HARD RIGHT. Everything is socialism. Many older are on ss or ssdi
The whole thing is batshit crazy. My mom worked in the same building as the communist party, and all the time there were bomb threats. I remember the Torch of Freedom on Biscayne protestors having things thrown at them by Cubans.
Guns are very big there, too
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)Were not so tied to the past. What happened?
Chainfire
(17,467 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)I dated a Cuban American who claimed he had an iq of 181. There were signs of brilliance, like being able to calculate the cost of the groceries to the penny. But there was something else about him that convinced me that I didnt want to spend a lifetime with him. He blamed his lack of direction to the fact his family was displaced from Cuba. According to him they were wealthy and had to leave everything behind. I dont know how much that was true. I got to meet his father one night. House party, then night club. He was out with the mistress that ended his marriage. I heard he did business with Noriega.
Anyway, we gave our friend ample sympathy and support until our mid twenties.His other Cuban friends all received college diplomas, or some found great opportunities from companies like IBM. I managed to convince him to go to college while he worked. His boss even gave him some extra time off with pay to study. It lasted four months. I figured out he dropped out, and he never told his boss.
Point of this, he always blamed leaving Cuba with all their wealth behind as an excuse. Brilliant guy, but couldnt get over the hump.
However, question still applies. Those who were born in the U.S., why cant they see the truth of the two parties?
Chainfire
(17,467 posts)I saw that same mindset from more than just a few Cuban refugees. In fact, all most all of the families had been wealthy and all of them from Havana. It may have been true or not. My first boss was second generation Cuban American and he was as passionate a conservative (and racist) as you could ask for. As far as he was concerned Democrats were responsible for every single problem in the country.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)The ones I met were not only racist towards blacks, they were racist towards other Latino nationals. Especially Puerto Ricans. But truthfully, I got to know them best through the eyes of the other Latino nationals. This was more than twenty years ago. I dont know if they all get along these days.
Chainfire
(17,467 posts)There are a lot of things to love about Cuban Americans, and the Cuban culture, they are good people and I had some fine friends among them, but many of them see themselves not as Cuban Americans, but Cubans in America, and they See Miami-Dade as exclusively theirs; Havana North. I used to have to grit my teeth when people would tell me to my face that, "If you are going to work in Miami, you need to learn to speak Spanish." While is is true that to thrive there Spanish is very helpful, I didn't like being reminded of it in an accusatory way, as if I were a trespasser in their country. I would remind them that I had family in Dade Country since the 1920s, so I too had some claim to the place. (my grandparents homesteaded in Homestead)
.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)I just wish someone rises to bring everyone together. I know its not De Santis. Hes going to step in it soon enough.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)Democrats are too slow at addressing this problem. They need to counter with a proper explanation of socialist like programs and socialism. And they can do it easily by pointing out that every Latin American country has the kind of safety nets that the Republicans are trying to take down.
HEAR THAT DEMOCRATS? Cant they find a Latino from Central or South America who can implement a campaign for them?
Cosmocat
(14,558 posts)This appealing to people sense of reason stuff just is not going to cut it at this point. This country is FAR to tweaked out and irrational.
We have to play the same game as the Rs are - FEAR. Except the fear they peddle in is completely bullshit, and the fear we can channel into is VERY real.
Gotta just cut to the chase and highlight that the R party and conservatives hate America, want to remake it into a chrisofascist authoritarian state, and if you are not a white person who kisses their ring, you are in their sites.
Hit these people with all they have said and done to target and hurt hispanics - I mean, kids in cages? That ain't the evil liberal communists, that is the flag waving christians. You may THINK you are with them, but past getting your vote they sure as fuck don't see you as with them.
obamanut2012
(26,046 posts)rockfordfile
(8,695 posts)hlthe2b
(102,119 posts)fled leftist regimes in South and Central America. The R's have been effective in propagating those stereotypes and tying them to liberal Democrats. Then you have years of anti-Castro Cubans who long ago tied themselves to the R party who promoted their interests above all other immigrants. For Hispanic males from Mexico and South/Central America, there is also the ingrained aspect of Machismo, which the RW has harnessed through its autocratic, "Daddy" authoritarianism and hate/fear campaigns.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)All Latin American countries have some kind of safety net. Drive a stake through the heart of the Republicans by showing Latinos that Republicans are using them to take money out of their pockets.
malaise
(268,692 posts)US foreign policy ensures that racist right wingers from our hemisphere get the immigrant visas.
Of course that included some of the cocaine kings and murderous criminals from our hemisphere as well.
That is all.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)So bribing?
malaise
(268,692 posts)Reward those who support your interests - they are usually the folks with money and also reward a few of their supporters (cheap labor).
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)malaise
(268,692 posts)the long term.
Sadly the US does not care about democracy abroad
3Hotdogs
(12,323 posts)coming into our country?
Yes, Martha, it's sarcasm.
brooklynite
(94,331 posts)Keep in mind that Latino voters are US citizens who came here voluntarily for a better life. Many of them are 2nd/3rd/4th generation who didn't have to struggle the way undocumented aliens have to. They're interested, like other voters, on kitchen table economics, schools being open, health care, etc.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)In a response to another post we talked about why the Uvalde area has a white Republican representation. This was the best response.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1016&pid=323877
Sounds like theyre marginalized.
Mosby
(16,258 posts)It's not just Uvalde.
AAs have stepped up since Obama, with rates similar to whites.
Millennials are the worst demo, with rates around 18% in mid term elections.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)Its no surprise that they decide to keep their heads down. It was the way I was raised, too. Dont bring attention to yourself. But I grew up believing that being an American meant being heard.
Damn Hollywood.
Mosby
(16,258 posts)Populations are rising though, so maybe things will change eventually.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)Just with the freedom to speak Spanish. I always felt pressured to hide my bicultural upbringing. So, my Spanish sounds very gringoized. But today there are more Latinos to speak to. God love them for their patience.
Karadeniz
(22,468 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)But I do think that the Latino culture does reinforce submissiveness. At least, that was my personal experience. One of the reasons that America was so appealing to me. At one time this country felt like it was moving in a progressive direction.
LonePirate
(13,408 posts)They seem to be fine with aspects of American socialism (like Social Security) but, like many on the right, they conflate socialism and communism. They also dont seem to have any issues with authoritarianism - the real problem in Cuba and Venezuela - and they have proudly embraced the authoritarian party in the US.
Overall, their policy positions are as nonsensical as those of Republicans elsewhere.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)Even my Republican leaning relatives in Panama did not like Trump. In fact, word out was that most Panamanians did not like him.
njhoneybadger
(3,910 posts)They believe Catholics must support republican politicians and will not criticize them.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)Use to be that Protestants put Catholics down and that was enough for Catholics to be wary of Republicans. We need to go back to Republicans racist perceptions of Latinos to open their eyes.
whathehell
(29,034 posts)fears are more likely to drive them to the Right.
Sympthsical
(9,036 posts)It's already getting a little spiky with racial (and -ist) stereotyping.
That said, CRT is generally considered a more Amerocentric thing from my conversations with Latino friends and family and my own reading. It feels and is perceived as contextualized within American slavery, Jim Crow, and the Civil Rights battles of the Black community.
And while people may make the assumption that any fight for racial equality within America should necessarily include the Latino community, there is not the same sense of proprietary ownership over these issues. When you look at things like the CRT fight, you see a lot of articles and arguing over things like the 1619 project, oppression as the continued legacy of slavery, etc.
One of the problems I feel our party has had - certainly within the past twenty years of my adulthood - is is the assumption that anyone non-white is part of the same ideological group, or at least a uniform political sensibility. White liberals have long felt a kind of possessive sense of this, that non-whites are a natural and eternal part of our coalition. However, this is a kind of patronizing racialism that's problematic, because it betrays a kind of unwillingness to see different groups as who and what they are - not the idea we (white liberals) have in our heads about them. Time and time again, I see an approach and attitude that non-whites are a monolith who share our attitudes on race and policy.
But they don't. One example. Immigration. There's just this assumption that Latinos feel the same way about immigration. It's kind of racist. "Well, you're brown. You should want more brown people to be able to come into the country or get mad when brown people are mistreated by our immigration policies. Aren't you practically an immigrant?" we seem to say.
And whenever I see this (which is constantly), I always want to say, "Have you ever . . . met any Latinos?" The ones who came here legally tend not to be huge fans of illegal immigration. But for some reason, people in our party make some sort of oddly racist default assumption that they are and proceed accordingly.
It doesn't work, and it doesn't endear us to that community.
By talking down, talking over, and talking at the community in this way (see: Latinx), we've been doing political damage to ourselves. There's a patronization on our part that can be very condescending and very belittling.
People will shift if they think they're being looked down upon. But it's very, very difficult to get people on our side to generate the self-awareness that they're doing it. That's why I say, this thread may not go so well, because it feels like a dozen or two examples are about to be thrown down. It's already started.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)Unfortunately I need to make an appt. will get back to you in the pm.
cachukis
(2,229 posts)politics. We are not a monolith that is worshipped because we think we are the right way to go.
Too often we forget that we can't be seen for the forest in the trees.
Celerity
(43,088 posts)discussions. Many equate CRT and other racial things (in terms of them holding a negative view of these) with blacks. I saw an interview several days ago on MSNBC (wish I could find a link) with some Latinos from different states and they were very negative about the schools teaching slavery and focusing on anti-black racism. Some of these claimed to be Democratic voters, or were until recently.
They also were mostly pretty anti LGBTQ (at least in terms of them saying there was too much emphasis on it) and especially anti Trans. They said it went against both their cultural and religious values.
They were mostly saying that they felt like the public schools were indoctrinating their children. This was repeatedly said. The RW ones called it (of course) forced communist indoctrination. The worst of the lot were from Florida (quelle surprise) but some others who expressed the same views were from other states, including TX. The women were the most vocal as well, I would say.
LeftInTX
(25,117 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)First and foremost we do need to wrench the framing of CRT from the right. Its American history, and under that understanding we need everyone to see that they dont want others to learn how it all turned out because people tend to side with the victims. Its not indoctrination when its the truth. And if there is one thing we need to do right it is to tell an honest version of American history. How can you consider yourself an American without knowing the truth?
Secondly, Latinos are not a homogeneous group. There are plenty of black Latinos and no one ever seems to connect with them as a focus group. If you did, you might come up with plenty of material that usually gets drowned out because someone else is talking about Latinos like its a monolith.
It appears that there are fiefdoms in South Florida. Maybe we cant reach those who are comfortable recreating versions of their own cultures from back home. Certainly culture is something we should support. But this is America and I am willing to bet there are far more who dont want to be consumed by the authoritarianism of the older generation. The question is, what is it they want that they dont already have?
I dont have an answer for that. The answer lies with focus groups who can provide clarity.
And I will say one last thing, there will be those who are not crazy about undocumented immigrants, but I guarantee that too many count on the that labor force in a pinch. The relationship between the two is very complicated. Everything from watching novelitas together to putting the maids children through college. But they are anti-immigrant?
blueknight73
(295 posts)( and still live there ) The Cuban people look down on Mexican people and Guatemalans. Much like a lot of white people do
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)When I was living in Miami, no one like the Cubans because they were snobs and put down everyone else.
FM123
(10,053 posts)Some days I think I understand, then there are other days I just don't get it. One thing I have noticed - there is a generational difference. The friends of my millennial & zillennial kids do not feel the same way their parents (especially grandparents) do. They are not afraid of the word socialism - maybe it's time we do something with the word.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)So we need to reach the millennials.
Johnny2X2X
(18,969 posts)Critical Race theory isn't really a thing, it's not a relevant term here. It's the QOP's definition of teaching history or talking about race.
Referring to it as CRT is allowing the Republicans to control the narrative. Call it what it is, US History, they're banning the teaching of US history.
CRT is a grad level law school class, that's the only context it's relevant to be discussed.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)Good point. I call the resulting school programs, Anglo indoctrination camps.
Johnny2X2X
(18,969 posts)History classes in K-12 don't even really get into how brutal slavery was, or how hard fought the civil rights movement was/is. Nor do they address Columbus using Columbus's own journals that are an account of the evil and brutality he and his party inflicted the native people he encountered.
Students were already getting the lily white version of reality, god forbid they should have to even know the basic facts around race in our country's history.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)Theyre probably responsible for this slide back when they tried to retell the history of the origins of Thanksgiving. Didnt the history Channel say that a diary was found that claims the pilgrims were independently enjoying their own festivities, shooting off guns, which attracted Indians, who arrived to check out what was going on. They were invited to stay.
Well that opened up a can of worms and on further investigation it was determined the festivities was for an Indian they were honoring that day, only to kill him at some point in the future.
Yeah, lets see which history De Santis will support.
Johnny2X2X
(18,969 posts)I don't think people fully appreciate how depraved and evil Columbus and his party were. They took children as sex slaves, they mutilated people just for fun. Columbus was proud of gifting children as young as 8 to his men to be raped and killed.
There's a passage about cutting off a small boy's ear just for fun, to see how he'd react. These men were truly ghouls and it's a crime that they were honored for hundreds of years.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)Rewriting history to hide their savagery, so they can continue using the same patterns on future generations. Makes their White expectation of dominance an act of barbarism.
ecstatic
(32,648 posts)malaise
(268,692 posts)Who gave Pablo Escobar, Jim Brown et al visas?
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)malaise
(268,692 posts)That is all
Were still suffering from the consequences
BumRushDaShow
(128,441 posts)And "Latino" might generally reference Latin Americans vs those Spanish-speakers from Europe (Spain) or the Caribbean (e.g., Cuba, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic). In fact, thanks to the Spanish-American War, you still have Spanish-speaking Filipinos (who would be considered "Asian" here).
I.e., they have many ethnic groups and a number of them don't consider themselves "brown" in the sense that the U.S. has defined it. It's like trying to lump all Asians together with the assumption that, for example, Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, and Vietnamese all think and act alike.
If you think of them like you think of Irish vs French vs Italians vs Germans, etc., then maybe it will make some sense.
SoCalDavidS
(9,998 posts)The party would be better off spending their money for major races in states where we stand a chance at victory.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)That De Santis pisses off every subgroup, except for the Villages.
SoCalDavidS
(9,998 posts)I think if DeSatan felt his job was in jeopardy, he wouldn't be so much of an Asshole. He doesn't strike me as being as big a Doofus as TFG.
yorkster
(1,459 posts)Paola Ramos has been a guest on various hourly programs talking about a doc. series addressing this.
The first in the series is on tonight in Lawrence O'donnell's
time slot. I hope it sheds more light than heat. She mentioned the word socialism multiple times and the focus seems to be on Latino voters fear of same.
Hope they examine the history behind this apparently continuing trend. Many commenters here have touched on the many factors involved.
I too was hoping that this was lessening as the Cuban community in Florida was replaced by their children and grandchildren at the ballot box...
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)I will def check Lawrence ODonald tonight. I noticed hes coming up with some very relevant material.
yorkster
(1,459 posts)MenloParque
(512 posts)The Catholic Church is a fixture in many Mexican-American families. Mexican families who have been in California many generations going back to the 1800s still have held tightly to Catholicism. Also, another large factor that I see is most of all the Mexican men that I have in my family or work colleagues conceal carry or have firearms at home. Im saddened that in California of all places many Mexican men are single issue voters and will not vote Democrat because of firearms.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)That Uvalde might make them rethink their position.
MenloParque
(512 posts)His stance on firearms. His and most of the men in my engineering department argued that if the police are too cowardly and continue to take the stance that they are not obligated to protect victims during an ongoing slaughter, then they will continue to keep bearing arms as they cannot rely on anyone but themselves for their families protection.
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)It was totally unacceptable.
48656c6c6f20
(7,638 posts)No not that one, this one:
I got mine now fuck you.
Peacetrain
(22,872 posts)for some
MaryMagdaline
(6,851 posts)Hundreds and thousands of Venezuelans, Colombians and Nicaraguans who identify with republicans. They do not identify with the underprivileged at all.
haele
(12,640 posts)Who identify as White Hispanic. Especially those who aren't of obvious Mestizo ancestry or had been able to inter-marry with the American settlers and pretend they were from the Spanish Land Grant families - of European descent.
This has been going on since California became an American Territory.
So there's a lot of them around, 7 or 8 generations worth.
A good number of them are old school GOP who voted for anti-immigrant, racist, and anti-poverty initiatives because, well - "those people".
Haele
Baitball Blogger
(46,682 posts)Message to them, when this isnt their audience. Their audience are middle class on down, and precisely the very people who dont register or vote because they dont trust the local community they live in. It would take going into these communities and Analyze them one by one to figure out if the Democrats have something to offer them, and if so, get them to register and vote.
I suggest they start with Uvalde.