A friend of mine is moving out of the USA later this week.

[Coventina]

He owns a restaurant here in Phoenix.

About a year ago, he was asleep on his couch, when a few guys burst into his home, pistol-whipped him, then held the gun on him while taking all his cash he'd brought home from his restaurant that day.

Probably at least a somewhat "inside job" in that they knew he had unsecured cash at his home overnight each night.

Yes, he wasn't smart about how he handled the money. Taking home the day's cash profits is not the proper way to run a business.
He was always lackadaisical about things like that. Don't worry, he was not involved in doing any of the cooking / health code stuff. He had people to do that. He just ran the business side of things.

Anyway, that experience made up his mind. No more living in the USA. He's been securing his plan for he and his wife to expat to Portugal, starting that very night. No, I have no idea why he chose Portugal, but that's where he's purchased a house and that's where they are moving in a few days.


If something about isn't done about gun violence (and I think this qualifies, even though he was not shot) we will see more of this.
I would leave if I could.

[Eliot Rosewater]

1. I wonder how many guns MAGA own. MAGA is what, 50 million Americans?

Very very bad days ahead.

This robbery and my point are not related per se, but in the bigger picture...-problem

[Foolacious]

2. Portugal is known for its very low crime rate.

Violent crime, in particular, is exceedingly rare there. Cost of living is relatively low as well, and the public health program is good. The spoken language is a challenge but doable, more so if your friend speaks Spanish.

[Coventina]

5. Interesting! Thanks for the info. Personally, I don't think I could move to a place where

bullfighting is legal.

I considered Norway, as I have family connections there, but then I remembered that they are still whaling.

Plus, I'm too old to be of interest to them.
Most European countries want child-bearing couples, not retirees.
(I'm not retired, but I'm over 50)

I don't know what Portugal requires, but my friends are a childless couple, and past child-bearing years, but they also have a good-sized nest egg.

[renate]

32. If I had a way to move to Norway, I would do it in a millisecond

Beautiful beautiful beautiful country, functional government, social equality... nowhere is perfect but Norway sounds pretty darn close. Lucky you to have that option!

[Coventina]

67. I apologize for my lack of clarity, I don't actually qualify.

I was really excited when I heard that Norway was looking to "repatriate" descendants of Norwegian emigrants, but it's not open to all.
You have to be a young person, and there are a few other qualifications.

I don't look like I'm Norwegian at all, but I do have easily verifiable Norwegian ancestors (I'm a Heinz 57 kind of gal). But, sadly, I'm just too damn old for the program.



On edit: humorous spelling error....

[Foolacious]

65. Well, in Portuguese bullfights the bull is not killed.

But it's still a cruel practice.

Portugal does seem to want retirees. Their immigration policies are fairly generous.

I live in Mexico, where it's even less expensive.

[Evolve Dammit]

49. free college as well. We had acquaintances move there for that.

[TreasonousBastard]

3. Portugal is a great place to retire...

Inexpensive, educated, all the benefits of Spain and France without the bullshit...

As far as taking the receipts home-- I grew up around a lot of shopkeepers who did that, so I suppose some still do.

[SYFROYH]

4. You can "buy" residency in Portugal relatively easily if he has business accumen

https://www.immigrate-portugal.com/residency-in-portugal

The following investment options are available for those looking to obtain Portuguese residency:

* real estate purchase of at least 500,000 Euros or the purchase of a property with a total value of at least 350,000 Euros when it is located in an urban regeneration area or it was constructed more than 30 years before;
* capital transfer of at least 350,000 Euros in research activities or capital transfer of at least 250,000 Euros in artistic outputs;
* capital transfer of at least 350,000 Euros for the incorporation of a company with its head office in Portugal, combined with creating at least 5 permanent jobs;
* creating at least 10 new jobs;
* capital transfer of at least 1 million Euros.

[Coventina]

6. I think he qualified under your first bullet point, then.

Ugh, we need a new term for "bullet points"

[SYFROYH]

8. I know about this because my son will likely inherit...

...a large sum from a grandparent and I showed him that he will have options to live in other countries easily.

Sad that it's come to this for parental advice.

[Coventina]

14. I have a white co-worker married to a black man from St. Maartin.

They have two teenaged boys.

They literally broke up their family on purpose: the husband took his two boys back home to St. Maartin, because my co-worker said she cannot live with the risk the USA represents to young black men.

Remember when USA was the destination much of the world aspired to reach?

[renate]

33. I remember!

It seems unreal now. Now the rest of the world is looking at us like

[former9thward]

61. The U.S. is the destination goal of millions around the world.

From all parts of the world. Every year. No other country is even close. Approximately 1,100,000 immigrants come in legally to the U.S. every year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States

[EX500rider]

63. And yet the homicide rate in St Maartin is over 4 times the US rate

St Maartin is 14th worst in the world at 27.7 per 100,000
The US is 59th @ 6.3 per 100,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[Coventina]

68. Interesting! I'll have to ask her about that!

[Johnny2X2X]

9. Sorry for your friend

A crime like that can cause long term anxiety and trauma.

Crime is relatively low in the US compared to its history, we're just up from the 50 year lows of the last several years. The 80s and 90s were much worse for violent crime than now. Is it worse now than a few years ago? Yes, but the rate of crime is still 1/2 of what it was during the crime peak of the Reagan and Bush 1 administrations. People truly forget what a hell hole Reagan turned our country into with his war on poor people and war on drugs.

Our crime rate is still high compared to our peer Western Democracies though, we can do a lot better.

[ZonkerHarris]

10. Portugal is on our list of potential retiring places

[RipVanWinkle]

37. Ours, too.

After the Uvalde mass shooting, I am giving more thought to moving to another country. Portugal is on our list.

My wife is growing more afraid of going out in public, for fear of being caught in a mass shooting. As for me, I am no longer hopeful that the US will solve many of its problems.

[EX500rider]

64. Does she know she is way more likely to die in a car wreck or falling down or by poison?

Unintentional fall deaths (per yr)
Number of deaths: 42,114

Motor vehicle traffic deaths
Number of deaths: 40,698

Unintentional poisoning deaths
Number of deaths: 87,404

Mass shooting deaths are a small fraction of those.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/accidental-injury.htm

[CountAllVotes]

11. Is it expensive to buy a small house in Portugal?

Or do you know?

I'm looking at getting out of here as well!

[Coventina]

12. I think it is relatively cheap, but I honestly have not looked into it.

All I have is hearsay.

[CountAllVotes]

13. Thanks

I am a citizen of the EU.

This truly has become a sh*thole country.

After my recent and extensive experience with the medical system in this country, I do believe that I am DONE!

I speak some Spanish and I have health insurance that is good worldwide so I am set to go if I can find an appropriate place to live.

[Coventina]

15. I'm jealous! My dream place to live is Delft.

That place spoke to me like no other place has.

[CountAllVotes]

16. Will have to check into Delft!

I know nothing about it.

I didn't get a thing when my husband passed away 3 weeks ago as he died indigent.

However, I would not be a citizen of the EU if it weren't for him. I forgot how valuable that extra passport is and yes, it is up-to-date! Somewhere else here I come!

I should get out of here now while I am able to do it, that's what I think.

I am so disgusted with this 'effin country! Seriously!

[mnhtnbb]

18. If you're going to go, don't wait.

In 2017 I planned to spend a month or two living in Spain and France to see if I wanted to relocate. Delayed because I didn't want to leave my elderly dog for 2-3 months. 2018 turned into 2019 and Snowy hung on. Then COVID in 2020. Not going anywhere any time soon, so ended up buying a house to be built. Moved in January 6, 2021. I kid you not. While I was dealing with movers, Trumpists were storming the Capitol, attempting a coup.

So here I am, I guess for the rest of my life

[shrike3]

21. Husband had a friend whose son lived in Japan.

And was offering to make a home for Dad.

DH's friend had an elderly dog. He decided to wait until she passed on. She outlived him by two years.

[ShazzieB]

30. It's been said that life is what happens while we're busy making other plans.

I think that is true, all too often.

[shrike3]

69. Yes, yes. n/t

[mnhtnbb]

45. The vet gave my dog 6 months

when they discovered a heart arrhythmia during surgery to remove bladder stones from Snowy in July 2017. It was June 2020 when I was finally faced with having to help her over the Rainbow Bridge.

[Native]

17. Me too. I love the options that affords us.

[peacebuzzard]

24. and this is just my own description,

but Portugal although small is quite diverse. Lisbon is full of history, with ancient palaces (open as museums) a thriving market/downtown/seaport complete with parks, recreation, yummy Portuguese restaurants, markets, more old-world museums-historical landmarks and a calm, creative population. The Portuguese are notable for a hard-working ethic and pride with ceremony and cleanliness. It may take time to have your meal served at a restaurant but they want you to relax and enjoy the moment and decor and hopefully the wine.
I have yet to explore the countryside and coastal regions of this tiny country, but I will make Cascais and Nazare' my next visits when I return. Cascais is known for beaches and Nazare' is becoming a magnet for the surfers and surfer mavericks hoping for the 100 ft waves. Portugal has islands as part of the country: Azores, which is catering to the digital nomad crowd. its an archipelago of several islands, that mainly got lost in time and has retained the old world culture. The Azores islands are calm, remote, perfect for the loners or solitude seekers. You will obviously pay more for a dwelling in the metro area or popular beach area but Portugal has much to explore and probably hides bargains everywhere. The language would be a barrier in the remote regions but the people are patient and kind and want to help. Cabo Verde close to Africa is another island, also a part of Portugal. This is my small interpretation, I have had a friend or two think of Portugal and explored possibilities there, The barriers encountered were culture clash, language, and ultimately the inability to adapt or adopt.

[shrike3]

70. We will be visiting Portugal for the first time.

We were inspired by a PBS program which explored the country's fauna and marine life. You make Lisbon sound very inviting as well.

[kimbutgar]

19. I recently talked with two students at schools I sub at and one children told me they were moving

To Vancouver this month and another 4th grader yesterday told me her family was moving back to China because her parents are afraid the USA is going collapse and they’d be safer in China. I felt chills when she was telling me this.

[renate]

38. I wouldn't put too much stock in one family's risk assessment, especially if they're choosing China

I would get chills too, to hear that someone feels so strongly that they're willing to pick up sticks and move halfway around the world, and the strength of their conviction would seem very persuasive, but choosing China over the United States seems like quite a stretch.

I absolutely wouldn't be surprised if we lose our democracy, but I don't think we're going to be living in a Xi-style dictatorship. I feel bad for that kid, actually. There's no way her life is going to be more free or give her more options in China than here.

On the other hand, Vancouver/Canada sounds like an excellent decision.

[shrike3]

20. Portugal has become a popular retirement spot.

We plan to visit this fall, and I'm hoping I can convince Hubby it's an option for us.

[SidneyR]

22. I would move someplace like Canada or the UK if I could.

But I waited too long, and now I can't accumulate sufficient points in their immigration system to qualify, so they won't let me remain indefinitely. I'm not rich enough to live off retirement income there. I can't even bring my own online job--that's forbidden. Wish I had thought about it earlier when I was younger.

[ShazzieB]

41. I am eligible for a UK passport, at least in theory.

My father was a citizen of the UK when I was born. (He became a US citizen years later, but I was grown by then.) His citizenship at the time of my birth would make me eligible for for dual citizenship, from what I've read.

Part of me is very attracted to the idea of going there, but as retirees with limited financial resources, just the cost of relocating to another country is daunting. Not to mention all the logistics involved. Still, it's nice to know the possibility exists.

[Kaleva]

23. What is climate change expected to do to Portugal?

[IcyPeas]

66. one positive note on that is : Cork forests

65% of the world's cork comes from Portugal.

Cork and Climate Change

Harvesting cork bark assists in the absorption of CO2 – a greenhouse gas that causes climate change. In fact, harvested cork trees absorb 3-5 times more CO2 than non-harvested trees. Cork oak trees in Portugal alone help offset 10 million tons of carbon every year. Cork trees are also important producers of oxygen.

Cork Trees Are Harvested, Not Cut Down

Cork stoppers are made from the bark of a cork oak tree, not the tree itself. Bark is harvested from the tree every 9-12 years. Completely renewable and sustainable, harvesting bark does not harm the tree. Each time cork is harvested; cork bark regenerates itself (and in doing so absorbs CO2). In fact, cork trees live between 100 and 300 years.

Cork Is Biodegradable and Recyclable

Cork is a natural, environmentally friendly material. It biodegrades completely and can be easily recycled without producing any toxic residues. The plastic portion of screw caps is non-recyclable.

https://100percentcork.org/why-cork/good-for-the-environment/#:~:text=Cork%20and%20Climate%20Change,tons%20of%20carbon%20every%20year.

[Joinfortmill]

25. I've thought about it many times.

[Susan Calvin]

26. Anybody know of a place

That would take an older person who doesn't have a lot of cash to invest (what cash I have is my self-insurance in case I need long-term care), but does have a decent retirement income (as long as inflation doesn't get ridiculous, knock on wood)? I could probably pay cash or come near it for a house.

[Fiendish Thingy]

51. Mexico or Costa Rica, possibly Portugal. Nt

[Lonestarblue]

52. I love reading about other places to live, though I'm not sure I'm brave enough to retire elsewhere.

Portugal is always rated as one of the top places to retire because of its moderate climate, cost of living, and good healthcare. I found that many people there speak English, though not always in the smaller towns. Indeed, many UK ex-pats live there, especially in the Algarve which is the whole southern coast—and beautiful. Every restaurant I was in had waiters who could speak English. Even grocery shopping was easy without knowing the language.

Depending on what you like to do (e.g., city life versus beach life versus country life, island versus mainland, small town versus medium or large), there are lots of options. I like southern Spain also. Some of the smaller town are quite affordable, and Spain’s rail system lets you travel many places without needing a car. The towns around Valencia are ones I want to explore.

If you prefer tropical, Panama is usually on the list of affordable places. I’ve never been there, but hate high humidity so that could be a factor.

Here’s an article from last year that lists some different options. Have fun reading!
https://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/retirement-living/affordable-retirement-options-europe/

[Magoo48]

27. I certainly understand getting out. SoCal is my home port for 73 years. I make my stand here.

If fascists take over, I’ll fuck with them big time until I can’t. My family is all here on the left coast, and I believe this coast will become its own nation at some point my kids and my grandkids might experience. Who knows?

[chia]

46. CA born and raised, lived here all my life, and I'll die here too. CA is a big FU to MAGA everywhere

and I relish that thought every singe day.

[Magoo48]

72. Yup, to all of the above. Me too.

[shrike3]

73. It would not surprise me, if it became its own nation.

Sometimes I think breaking up the country would be the most positive option.

[LittleGirl]

28. Portugal is beautiful

My house keeper is from Porto. She goes back every summer. Her parents left Switzerland during covid as they probably lost their jobs. It’s too expensive here and Portugal has a decent cost of living and beaches to die for. There’s a show called Sun, Sea and Selling houses on Channel 4 in the UK. They feature homes in Portugal and for 100k Euros you can get a decent house. I’d move there. They are very nice places.

[McKim]

29. Lucky Him!

Lucky him! Portugal is a wonderful country with gentle friendly people, economy on the upswing as they avoided World Bank loans and recovered on their own. Very smart pro education people. My doctor told me that two of his patients are also moving there this week. I have been to Portugal three times and loved every minute of my stays there.

[RDJackson]

31. Why Portugal?

Maybe because they have health based drug laws that pretty much have eliminated these thieving, fuck up crack heads that seem to have blossomed everywhere.

[world wide wally]

34. I considered Portugal as well.

The thing that attracted me was that it is never in the news.
I like that.

[eissa]

35. Wish we could do the same

I fantasize of retiring in Spain. A co-worker is making plans to retire in Portugal, and I know of others who are making plans to move to other parts of Europe. The violence, outdated infrastructure, and downright ignorance that is prevalent in our society is contributing to our downfall.

[enid602]

56. Health Insurance

Moving overseas at retirement age is tricky. Buying health insurance in ANY country if you're 65 or over is going to be expensive. You can only use your Medicare in the States, and you can't just fly back every time you get sick, unless you live somewhere close, like Canada, Mexico, Ecuador, Central America or Caribbean.

[Grammy23]

36. I vividly remember being in Atlanta with my best friend.

We were about 18 -19 and visiting my older sister and her family. It was 1968. While we were there, we heard about Robert Kennedy being shot and killed. We were sleeping on cots in the living room and through many tears were talking about leaving the US — possibly relocating to Australia. We knew absolutely nothing except we were very unhappy with how things were going in the US. Just two not quite grown teenagers starting to see what our world was becoming. We truly thought moving away was the solution.

Then life happened. She became a nurse and married. I also married and had a son. I taught kindergarten and eventually obtained a BA degree and Master’s in Sociology. Thoughts of moving away returned occasionally, but it was never practical or feasible for one reason or another. I had the urge but not the means to do so.

Now at 73 it all seems very far away. I’ve been to Europe several times and there are places I am quite sure I could live. But now….moving away from family seems too hard. They are not ready to move. So here I am. If we sold everything, cashed in stock and 401 K we could do it but figure we’re too old for a major move. But still…..the thought crosses through this old noggin’ just like it did at 18.

[Warpy]

39. Portugal is a good choice

Mild climate (except the rare occasions it's on fire), nice people, reasonably low cost of living for the EU, large expat presence,, decriminalization of small amounts of drugs (all of 'em) which means low street crime, NO GUNS except licensed hunting rifles. It was on my own list before my health gave out for good.

There are still crime gangs there, as there are everywhere, but decriminalization of drugs took away a large source of funding.

It's not paradise, that doesn't exist on earth, but it's a good choice.

[Chin music]

40. America is fine w me.

Generations of my family fought to be here. We just have different challenges. In my mind? Leaving means surrendering to malignant minority. I refuse to do that. This is the best country in the world, and trmp followers and other criminals don't determine my destiny. Nor should they yours, or, any of us. Running scared doesn't connect w my genetics.
America always was great. We just have been lazy and in disbelief, while a minority got a toehold. That's all it is too, a toehold. Nothing worth having is easy, or free. We have to fight these abject dullards and meet them squarely on the battlefield w our 2 to 1 majority. And armed if we have to be. You aren't going to disarm someone w your bare hands imho. The gun 'ship' has sailed until we toughen the hell up imho. We must adapt, THEN change. Like HRC said as to how to fight them.
For the record? If some dude(?) comes in my house for a payroll I should've deposited in a bank? Some fuckers going out on a stretcher.
I'm a D but, I'm not a pacifist, nor will I be a victim.
PS..Portugal has crime too.

[Grasswire2]

47. good points

Even though my father's family fled the colonies during Rev. War as Loyalists, they returned in 1932, having been in the New World since mid 1600s.

My father remained a citizen of Canada, living here on a green card most of his adult life. And so, under 2009 Canadian law, I am a citizen (in the lengthy process of obtaining a certificate of citizenship). I don't think of moving out of U.S. unless things deteriorate to the point where my adult disabled daughter would be endangered by discriminatory RW policy.

That said, my other daughter is mother to two girls whose Jewish father's family fled Nazi Germany and would have gone to Theriesenstadt camp with neighbors except they had enough resources to escape. This daughter will NOT stay in U.S. if there is a threat to those girls.

I had to have "the talk" with my disabled daughter the other day. She is able to take the local bus to the supermarket to shop, and that is her routine several times a week. I had to talk with her about how to be safe if there is trouble in the store. Keep aware of what's happening, if there's trouble, leave the cart and the store immediately, look for a place to duck and hide....etc.

What a world.

[Chin music]

55. Sounds like you have a nice family.

And you're a good parent.
We have work to do. If for no other reason than to protect the ones who can't leave. This is a beautiful land. putin and trmp tried to overthrow it. I'm ready to fight. Ukraine and Malcolm Nance have me fired up. (And ready to go. -If I have too.) We just need to toughen up. Then we can go back to 'normal' once we defeat the 'enemy within'. This is what OUR generations war looks like.

[Fiendish Thingy]

53. Your condescending exceptionalism is duly noted. Nt

[Chin music]

57. And your nasty assumptive labeling is too.

Are you ever kind? Just curious.



PS...I'd fight for you too. Since when is sticking beside your country condescending? Wow.

[thatdemguy]

42. I have a feeling Portugal wont be so favorable in the near future.

The .gov will still like US ex-pats but the people maybe not so much.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-05-12/california-expats-portugal-relocation-lisbon

[DownriverDem]

44. I'd move out of AZ

but not the USA. It pains me when I see folks announce they are moving to a red state too.

[onecaliberal]

48. Portugal is beautiful and they have very low crime.

[Fiendish Thingy]

50. I believe it's fairly easy to immigrate to Portugal if you own a house there. Nt

[BlackSkimmer]

54. My cousin lives in Portugal.

She has for years and years. It's gorgeous there.

[Old Crank]

58. We moved to Germany in 2015

Pre Trump.
If we can get our daughter set up so she can stay here our chances of moving back to the US become very small.
I also found out that I am still Canadian so we have that option if Germany doesn't work out for my daughter.

I have a former work colleague who is working on moving to Portugal with his wife in the next year.

Portugal has good services, is fairly cheap out of Lisbon and a large expat community.

[Evolve Dammit]

59. excellent thread. Lots of food for thought as we are currently devolving. Will justice and democracy

prevail and can we restore some sanity and tolerance? The next 6 months will tell us where we are headed. Get your passport or update, oil your firearms, whatever you think you will need to protect your loved ones. It's sad to think like this but it is where we are with millions of rabid cultists.

[Ananda62]

60. Looking into Portugal as well

As a POC, I feel particularly vulnerable, despite my military background. I’m old and retired. I did read this -

The Portuguese government allows U.S. citizens to easily establish residency.  The most common way is the 120-day stay visa. This visa requires the applicant to provide proof of income, showing at least $1,070 per month available throughout the stay.  If you like what you see and you would like to extend the stay, then the Portugal government allows you to apply for a one-year residence permit. It can then be renewed for two-year permits successively.  Once you spend five years of temporary residence, you can then apply for permanent residency status.

https://getgoldenvisa.com/retiring-in-portugal

[Marius25]

62. My family wants to retire to Portugal too. They hate the US

But they won't leave until I can find a way to move there too, but I don't have a remote job that can work internationally.

[Hassler]

71. I qualify to repatriate to Italy. Giving it some serious thought.

[DFW]

74. That happens in Europe, too

Here in Germany, there are many areas with huge organized crime clans. There are certain areas of Duisburg where Lebanese crime clans rule the place to the extent that cops don't even go in there unless in groups of 20 or more, and armed to the teeth and in military style armored vehicles. In other areas, it's the Romanians, the Albanians or the Serbs (or others), sometimes even bands of former German mercenaries or ex-military with friends still "on the inside" with access to weapons. Unarmed theft is rarely pursued here as a crime. If you get robbed and no firearm was used, you are usually S.O.L here. A friend of ours who recently retired from the BKA, the German FBI, said that if you don't want to get robbed, try your best not to look like it would be worthwhile for someone to try. Own a fancy car? Don't wash it too often. Have nice stuff in your house? Make sure it isn't easily visible through the windows. We know a woman who is a little off, emotionally, and counts as a "messy." Her place was once broken into, and the burglar(s) never went further than one meter inside the front door. They probably figured another gang had already been there that night.

In Berlin, there was one gang (Serbian, as it later turned out) that broke into houses and apartments they thought might be worthwhile. They tried to break in when no one was home, but if they made a mistake, they killed whoever they found, so as not to leave witnesses. One time, they got sloppy, and left their victim barely alive. That is how they got identified and caught. They used weapons, so they went away for a long time.

Portugal is geographically far from the worst of the organized gangs, but not entirely immune. As one of the poorer western European countries, it has its share of crime, too, if not as bad as elsewhere. One thing most of Western Europe does NOT have, at least, is a large force of armed cops whoare too quick to use their guns on unarmed civilians. THAT, at least, is almost unheard of.

Oh, and one last thing: good luck with learning Portuguese! It is a Romance language, and farily easy to learn to read, especially if you know some Spanish. BUT--the way the prounonce it, especially in Portugal, will drive you nuts. Oddly enough, Brazilian Portuguese is usually easier to understand for the uninitiated. The country DOES have some wonderful scenery, is relatively affordable, and, thanks to MANY billions of euros of German taxes poured into their development, way more modernized than the primitive place I first visited in 1980. I did have a nice time walking around with my (then-) wife-to-be and getting decent meals for $2. THAT is over and done with. But the food is still decent, and it is way more affordable than most of the rest of western Europe. I do not know how local infrastructure is. I only know parts of the country as a visitor, not what a resident could tell you.