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Miami flooding (Original Post) mia Jun 2022 OP
I met a woman in Charleston two days ago mnhtnbb Jun 2022 #1
Pouring rain all night here in the keys tavernier Jun 2022 #2
It hasn't been named yet BumRushDaShow Jun 2022 #13
Yes, the weather people keep saying that, tavernier Jun 2022 #15
Ok I understand BumRushDaShow Jun 2022 #20
The problem was that the roots of the tree were sitting in ankle deep water tavernier Jun 2022 #23
If you're in the Keys BumRushDaShow Jun 2022 #26
Interesting exchange, you two, including new term. Hortensis Jun 2022 #35
As a gardening hobbyist too BumRushDaShow Jun 2022 #37
:) What a cute little baby pine, getting ready to shoot 100 feet up. Hortensis Jun 2022 #39
LOL BumRushDaShow Jun 2022 #40
How great that it's electronic now. I bought the old 1998 paperback edition, Hortensis Jun 2022 #42
Well THIS is what I grew up with that my mom had in the house BumRushDaShow Jun 2022 #43
:) That was a hugely valuable book for temperate-climate gardeners Hortensis Jun 2022 #44
Since you mention "Sunset" BumRushDaShow Jun 2022 #45
I didn't realize they'd stepped back from updating national zones. Hortensis Jun 2022 #46
I can't find any Sunset Zone finders anywhere anymore BumRushDaShow Jun 2022 #48
The forecast was showing a high probability of storm formation even before Agatha came ashore OnlinePoker Jun 2022 #22
They were earlier showing 2 different potential systems BumRushDaShow Jun 2022 #24
Remnants of Agatha malaise Jun 2022 #47
Greetings all from the capital of the banana republic bluecollar2 Jun 2022 #3
as a germaphobic NJCher Jun 2022 #4
No worried Traildogbob Jun 2022 #5
Good summary Brenda Jun 2022 #17
"space lasers to blow the storm onto Floriduh" BumRushDaShow Jun 2022 #28
As stupid as that stunt was Brenda Jun 2022 #30
If you think about it BumRushDaShow Jun 2022 #34
Nice Post Ferrets are Cool Jun 2022 #18
Perfect post Bob. Boomerproud Jun 2022 #33
I'm old enough to remember when Miami didn't always flood. Climate change OrlandoDem2 Jun 2022 #6
Yep. Moved near there in the 80's. It didn't always flood. But more development and climate change.. JanMichael Jun 2022 #9
It's unfortunate Brenda Jun 2022 #21
Yeah, I use to visit Miami regularly for my job Farmer-Rick Jun 2022 #25
I give it 8 years Brenda Jun 2022 #29
Yeah, I suspect that 18 year prediction isn't accurate Farmer-Rick Jun 2022 #31
Parts of Miami have always flooded. sop Jun 2022 #32
I was a big fan of the show "Miami Vice" in the mid-80s BumRushDaShow Jun 2022 #36
Clearly, climate change is a hoax. bottomofthehill Jun 2022 #7
You mean this? elias7 Jun 2022 #11
That's the one. bottomofthehill Jun 2022 #38
How inconvenient. twodogsbarking Jun 2022 #8
How can that car keep running? viva la Jun 2022 #10
Drunks gonna be drunks come hell or high water, party on! Shanti Shanti Shanti Jun 2022 #12
👍 Joinfortmill Jun 2022 #14
Wow that's a lot of rain. It doesn't help Emile Jun 2022 #16
Miami should be abandoned. The Jungle 1 Jun 2022 #19
I know people who buy in climate devasted areas Farmer-Rick Jun 2022 #27
I live in southeastern Pa and I say the samething The Jungle 1 Jun 2022 #41
Watch out for alligators malaise Jun 2022 #49

mnhtnbb

(31,411 posts)
1. I met a woman in Charleston two days ago
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 06:26 AM
Jun 2022

who had just moved from Miami to Atlanta because of the flooding. It happens all the time. Tidal. Yet people are still moving there. Apartments and homes are hard to find.

BumRushDaShow

(129,875 posts)
13. It hasn't been named yet
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 08:20 AM
Jun 2022

because it hasn't become a full-fledged tropical cyclone ( "cyclone" meaning either a tropical depression, tropical or subtropical storm, or a hurricane) yet.

I had to go look up this term "Potential Tropical Cyclone" because as a long-time weather hobbyist, I had never heard it used before and just found out that this was because they first implemented that product in 2017. Even since then, I don't recall them ever designating anything as that (unless it happened during some brief/interim period just before the system was designated a "TD" (tropical depression)). They basically left the "red X" out there on their map with an estimated probability for formation of some recognizable storm type, and called it a day, until they designated it a TD or TS (tropical storm), etc.

I suppose it makes it easier to call it "something" when it is somewhat organized and has potential for a moderate - severe impact that it can cause, or is causing in an area. They often would call remnants that looked like that, a "tropical rain storm" (although those could cause major flooding).



I think that is probably the remnants of that Pacific hurricane Agatha that slammed into Mexico and they theoretically are supposed to maintain system names if something crossed over into the Gulf or Atlantic basin from the Pacific and completely reformed again. But since this hasn't met all the criteria, I suppose they felt Agatha completely dissipated and a new system formed, sortof primed by what was left of Agatha.

(sorry getting geek)

tavernier

(12,410 posts)
15. Yes, the weather people keep saying that,
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 08:35 AM
Jun 2022

but we have an annoying acquaintance named Alex, so we decided that he should represent this big soggy mess. And just a few minutes ago a strong wind gust blew one of the neighbor’s trees on my roof so now it’s more than a rain event to me.

BumRushDaShow

(129,875 posts)
20. Ok I understand
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 08:50 AM
Jun 2022


I had just never heard that term used before. They did call it a "tropical wave" (a term that I've heard before) before it expanded itself.

We get "remnants" of those systems up here in Philly and the remnants can be as bad as the actual storms. And I know about the damage of these seemingly "benign" storms that produce a lot of rain and uproots trees.

I hope that tree didn't do major (or any) damage to your roof.

tavernier

(12,410 posts)
23. The problem was that the roots of the tree were sitting in ankle deep water
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 09:00 AM
Jun 2022

So when the wind gust came along it blew the tree right to the side and onto the roof of our house. I just finished talking to the neighbors and he said once it calms down a little he’s going to cut it down and take care of it. He works in construction so he has the tools. Oddly, I’ve lived in Florida for 40 years and I’ve seen these types of storms do the craziest damage, sometimes worse than category ones or twos.

BumRushDaShow

(129,875 posts)
26. If you're in the Keys
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 09:14 AM
Jun 2022

I expect the water table there is normally high anyway, so it doesn't take much to water-log.

The excessive rain storms can be just as bad as high-wind storms because it only takes a little wind to blow something over that is in completely saturated/flooded soil - particularly the surface rooting trees.

At least you had someone with the chainsaws to make quick work of it.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
35. Interesting exchange, you two, including new term.
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 10:07 AM
Jun 2022

And the reality of "Alex." Glad the damage isn't too bad, Tavernier. I have a book about trees shown to withstand Florida's "events," and not. I don't imagine many that don't do that great were standing in the Keys, and now this survivor finally went over.

BumRushDaShow

(129,875 posts)
37. As a gardening hobbyist too
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 10:52 AM
Jun 2022

(the two hobbies of weather and gardening obviously interrelate ) I know that there are many "northern transplants" in FL and I expect newer landscaping was often done for aesthetics vs what naturally grew there that adapted over millennia to the conditions - like the Longleaf Pine (which evolved to handle the annual winter wildfires that you don't hear about much that happens in FL but DO happen), the Live Oak, and the Bald Cypress, that could better handle some of the conditions...

I ended up learning about the Longleaf Pine because when one of my sisters moved into her current home almost 20 years ago, the previous owner had one planted in the front, and that was certainly WAY WAY out of its natural growing range up here in SE PA, but there it was, and it is still alive and kicking (thanks to climate change). That particular tree starts the first 7 years of life looking like a "tuft of grass", then shoots up a tall narrow trunk that goes bare at the bottom, and can resist the brush and wildfires.



Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
39. :) What a cute little baby pine, getting ready to shoot 100 feet up.
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 11:47 AM
Jun 2022

Our place in central FL is surrounded by swamp, and so we have P. elliottii, which are very pretty and also drop their lower branches, but I think I read that longleafs are more hurricane resistant.

"Interrelation" in this era seems like a perfect storm of interrelationability! Last year, I finally donated at least several hundred gardening-related books, mostly temperate and Mediterranean plant and decorative gardening related, that are still nice but suffering from obsolescence due to climate change factors. I collected and enjoyed them over some decades; hopefully, there will be degrees of recovery someday and future generations of gardeners will find this kind of information and inspiration from the past more special than ever.

BumRushDaShow

(129,875 posts)
40. LOL
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 01:11 PM
Jun 2022

My sister's longleaf was maybe 10 ft - 12 ft tall when she moved there and has to be about 25 ft now (above well above her 2-story house).

I keep talking myself out of getting a copy (electronic at this point) of Dirr's Manual of Woody Landscape Plants.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
42. How great that it's electronic now. I bought the old 1998 paperback edition,
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 03:18 PM
Jun 2022

all 1000+ pages, when we moved from Southern California to the temperate southeast in 2000. It got tired long ago of being manhandled and separated its elderly self into three lighter sections.

I don't use it much any more, but I'd be craving an electronic edition anyway if notes could be scribbled in it too.

BumRushDaShow

(129,875 posts)
43. Well THIS is what I grew up with that my mom had in the house
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 03:31 PM
Jun 2022


and that was my "garden book". I think one of my sisters may have it and it was falling apart a bit but was well-used and had lots of underlining in it. It was probably one of the printings done in the early 60s but I think it was first published in the '30s or '40s.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
44. :) That was a hugely valuable book for temperate-climate gardeners
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 04:52 PM
Jun 2022

especially in its era. I rushed to get Dirr's on moving to GA because Dirr worked and gardened in GA, and of course where authors live and garden has a huge impact. Downright heinous when it's not disclosed -- I learned to make it the first thing to look for on picking up a book.

I lived in SoCal before, and comparatively very few gardening books were ever by CA authors. The vast majority of books I found in English were by authors from the NE states, like Taylor, and of course the British Isles.

Reminds me that the Sunset Western Garden Book publisher, with its fabulous, and fabulously needed, wealth of information about gardening in many climate zones throughout the western states, kept secret that someone heavily involved in compiling it (no longer remember who) gardened and trialed in our part of SoCal, with descriptions often especially accurate and detailed for local Med climate. Over time, the "Western Garden" book spread to gardeners in Mediterranean climates around the planet.

BumRushDaShow

(129,875 posts)
45. Since you mention "Sunset"
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 05:53 PM
Jun 2022

I think that publisher (with the mags and books) became the "definitive" guides for gardening in California (and "the west" in general). They had come up with the "Sunset Zones", etc., because obviously the USDA Hardiness Zones based on winter hardiness (the lowest average min. temp), was often useless in areas where the temps never went below the 40s at night, even in winter (but was not really "tropical" ). Plus you had a totally different terrain (mountains, high plains, deserts) than much of the rest of the country, and it included heat zone info and precipitation patterns as you often get a "rainy season" / "dry season" climate out there.

I remember finally finding my Sunset Zone (I believe it was Sunset 32) but haven't seen anything updated "nationally" from Sunset (including any active zone finders) in a long time, as they seemed to have gone back to focusing on the west coast/western state zone maps.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
46. I didn't realize they'd stepped back from updating national zones.
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 08:34 PM
Jun 2022

That's a shame, but understandable if it's become too changeable and existing info keeps being no longer valid.

Zone mapping for SoCal and probably much of California was much more detailed, I don't remember how many, but probably at least a dozen zones in SoCal. I could follow the boundaries around our area and see where elevation changes and so on created noticeable differences. Descanso Gardens, right down the bottom of the valley from us, had warmer winter temps than us on a mountain slope.

We thought the weather was changeable last century. Maybe we'll see development of extreme gardening, like extreme sports, in this one. Strictly for those inclined of course.

The Orlando Sentinel says the storm heading offshore now is still "Potential Tropical Cyclone One." Tell that to Tavernier.

BumRushDaShow

(129,875 posts)
48. I can't find any Sunset Zone finders anywhere anymore
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 08:42 PM
Jun 2022

and old links go to new Sunset pages that talk about it but don't have any link to add a zip, etc. Since here on the east coast, the zones were a little broader, I don't expect it to have changed as much. I do remember the nightmare when USDA was trying to update their map and then it got politicized, but finally got issued under Obama, I think in 2012 (and covered more years).

And yeah, during the season, I usually keep NHC in a tab with their list of systems. I am surprised that thing hasn't at least been considered a Tropical Depression.

OnlinePoker

(5,729 posts)
22. The forecast was showing a high probability of storm formation even before Agatha came ashore
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 08:53 AM
Jun 2022

In the most recent "Discussion and Outlook" on the NHC site, the disturbance is expected to become a
tropical storm off the east coast of Florida by tonight. Current track has it heading out into the middle of the Atlantic.

BumRushDaShow

(129,875 posts)
24. They were earlier showing 2 different potential systems
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 09:07 AM
Jun 2022

last night, but it dropped down to the current one to the SW. I expect the other to bubble up again to the east as it is obvious on that sat image!

There are usually favorable conditions in the GOM and SE Atlantic at this time of year but just based on the path of what is being called PTC-1, that came off the Yucatan.

bluecollar2

(3,622 posts)
3. Greetings all from the capital of the banana republic
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 06:31 AM
Jun 2022

Might as well rename this place...Darwin's Waiting Room.

Flooding gets worse every year yet developers continue to apply for zoning changes to pave over green spaces.

Traildogbob

(8,868 posts)
5. No worried
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 07:37 AM
Jun 2022

DeSatan has your back. Rubio will tweet scripture. Mattie G will rescue the little girls. Rick Scott will provide health care through Medicare. And trump is a Floridian, he will demand off shore wind mills stop blowing water ashore. Your in good hands Florida. Just keep all your amazing political leaders the fuck in your state. America does not need another Floridian is power. Thoughts and prayers. Climate change is a hoax like Covid. All liberal lies. Maybe ya can
Ship that water out west for fire fighting and agriculture and drinking. Don’t send your Poo water to MTG in Ga though.

Brenda

(1,081 posts)
17. Good summary
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 08:47 AM
Jun 2022

But you forgot: Mexican rapists, Jews and the Chinese conspired to use space lasers to blow the storm onto Floriduh.

BumRushDaShow

(129,875 posts)
28. "space lasers to blow the storm onto Floriduh"
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 09:18 AM
Jun 2022

He can just use a sharpie to change the path of the storm to go around the state!

Brenda

(1,081 posts)
30. As stupid as that stunt was
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 09:23 AM
Jun 2022

It kinda shocked me that the only response seemed to be a mild, corrective tweet from the Alabama weather service.

That kind of blatant LIE could cause thousands of people to flee!

BumRushDaShow

(129,875 posts)
34. If you think about it
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 10:00 AM
Jun 2022

(and as a retired fed myself, I get it) a decision was made to sort of politely dismiss the incorrect info and use social media (twitter) to notify the people who live in the CWA ( "County Warning Area" ) that they will be fine and there was no forecast for any major impacts of that storm to the state.

Of course that would cause fireworks and ridicule for months, but eventually a later public apology happened from the captive head of the NWS at the time (Louis Uccellini) at a conference he was previously scheduled to speak at in Huntsville, AL.

(starting at ~2:20 min mark)

OrlandoDem2

(2,072 posts)
6. I'm old enough to remember when Miami didn't always flood. Climate change
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 07:45 AM
Jun 2022

and rising sea levels are a helluva thing for low lying mega cities.

Only gonna get worse. But all the GOP in Hialeah and on 8th Street say it’s a hoax.

JanMichael

(24,898 posts)
9. Yep. Moved near there in the 80's. It didn't always flood. But more development and climate change..
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 07:55 AM
Jun 2022

...and this is the current result. It will only get worse, much worse, and probably sooner than most people would imagine.

Brenda

(1,081 posts)
21. It's unfortunate
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 08:50 AM
Jun 2022

that it will take dozens of condo collapses and thousands of dead Miamians before something is addressed.

Or maybe not even then.

Farmer-Rick

(10,225 posts)
25. Yeah, I use to visit Miami regularly for my job
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 09:11 AM
Jun 2022

About 40 years ago. It never flooded. Never ever worried about flooding even in heavy rains, except with hurricanes and 100 year event freak storms. But times change, uncontrolled fossil fuel usage raises global heat, melts ice caps, raise water levels.

In about 18 years it should be very much streets of water.

Brenda

(1,081 posts)
29. I give it 8 years
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 09:21 AM
Jun 2022

Things are happening rather like a runaway train at this point. Really shows the sickness that permeates America that the realtors and developers will swindle people right down to the point of the ocean lapping at their sofa. I once saw it referred to as hot potato with all the shoreline properties, not just in Miami but from Texas to Boston and beyond.

Wonder who's gonna keep cleaning up and who's gonna be left holding the spud?

People will eventually wake up and the mass migrations will commence. It's already happening now from the west.

Farmer-Rick

(10,225 posts)
31. Yeah, I suspect that 18 year prediction isn't accurate
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 09:31 AM
Jun 2022

It is speeding up now, feeding off the already warmed up environment.

This is what happens when you let corporations dump their waste products into the atmosphere. And we the people are left holding the bag and they are left holding our national wealth.

sop

(10,284 posts)
32. Parts of Miami have always flooded.
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 09:51 AM
Jun 2022

Miami neighborhoods that don't flood after every tropical storm were situated on higher ground. Early South Floridians knew enough not to build in the lower-lying areas. Unfortunately, unscrupulous developers continued building in flood-prone zones closer to the beaches and along the coastline.

I grew up in Coconut Grove; our house sat on a natural coral bluff overlooking Dinner Key and Biscayne Bay. Hurricane storm surges didn't affect us; Bayshore Drive always flooded, but Tigertail, a block to the west and several feet higher in elevation, never did. The area was called Silver Bluff, many historic older homes there date back to the '20s and '30s. Coral Gables, The Roads and most neighborhoods along Coral Way to the west also never flooded.

I do recall many low-lying streets and intersections throughout Miami flooding after heavy rains, but that was before the City built storm water drains. Now, as things get worse from rising sea levels, it will cost billions to build the necessary pumping systems to drain rising flood waters every time it rains, and to physically raise low-lying streets and buildings. The well-to-do in these fashionable neighborhoods will expect everyone else to foot the bill.

BumRushDaShow

(129,875 posts)
36. I was a big fan of the show "Miami Vice" in the mid-80s
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 10:21 AM
Jun 2022

and I recall reading a lot of background stories about how they struggled to find locations to film scenes because in reality, the place was a sleepy older "spring break" city with more "grit" than the "glamor" as depicted in the show.

However the show literally put the city on the map and a decade later, in came all the developers who went on a construction frenzy across south FL, eventually leading to bubbles and busts over the subsequent couple decades.

All that construction just disrupted the hell out of the city's water management facilities and probably killed the protective effects of the barrier islands off the coastal areas.

 

The Jungle 1

(4,552 posts)
19. Miami should be abandoned.
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 08:49 AM
Jun 2022

The city is a lost cause and will be underwater in just a few years. If you have investments in Miami or Florida sell now. The city is already pumping out the ocean. The storm sewers run backward. It is a battle they will not win.
The west is also a lost cause. It will turn into a desert without enough water to sustain life. If you have investments in the west sell now.
Yet we sit on our hands and ignore the coming environmental disaster. Repukes tell us it is not happening.

Farmer-Rick

(10,225 posts)
27. I know people who buy in climate devasted areas
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 09:16 AM
Jun 2022

Have to plan for the worse.

A common joke here in the mountains of East TN is that we'll soon have oceanside property.

 

The Jungle 1

(4,552 posts)
41. I live in southeastern Pa and I say the samething
Sat Jun 4, 2022, 01:32 PM
Jun 2022

The salt line is up to Philadelphia. That catch blue crap. I am only 30 miles away.

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