PSA: Starting tomorrow Oklahoma will be full of people openly carrying loaded guns.

[sinkingfeeling]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by REP (a host of the General Discussion forum).

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/31/us/oklahoma-prepares-for-open-carry-gun-law.html?pagewanted=all

A new law takes effect on Thursday in Oklahoma — anyone licensed to carry a concealed firearm can choose to carry a weapon out in the open, in a belt or shoulder holster, loaded or unloaded. Five minutes after midnight Thursday, Mr. Hull and his friends — supporters of the Oklahoma Open Carry Association, a gun rights group — will mark the occasion by wearing their unconcealed handguns while dining at Beverly’s, a 24-hour restaurant.
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I used to drive over to Tulsa to spend money or go to the zoo. Not anymore.

Oklahoma will officially have turned back the clock to the 1850s.

[DrDan]

1. yep - John Wayne wannabes

[LAGC]

2. Oh relax.

Wouldn't you rather know who was openly toting versus not knowing who may or may not be carrying concealed?

[RC]

9. Either way, the gun toters are too paranoid to be allowed to walk around loose in public.

Paranoia is the problem. Guns are not the solution.
There are just too many Dirty Harry's and potential King Fishers out there that think they need guns when in public.

[eqfan592]

44. You accuse people who carry a firearm of being "too paranoid."

The only paranoia I see on this thread is yours and that of those who agree with you. Paranoia has nothing to do with carrying a firearm for myself or any other permit holder I have ever met.

You need to educate yourself. Seriously.

[Eleanors38]

49. Hmmm. Sounds like "paranoia" is a little closer to home.

[randome]

40. Many gun 'mishaps' occur when someone uses someone else's weapon.

Having weapons in the open makes it more likely they will be taken from their owners.

[eqfan592]

42. Do you have any statistical evidence to support your assertion? (nt)

[randome]

54. No, I don't.

[sadbear]

3. Yee-Haw!!!!

Maybe they can turn the whole state into a theme park, a la West World.

[ananda]

4. Deadwood reincarnated.

nt

[eqfan592]

47. Wisconsin ALWAYS has had legal open carry. Amazingly enough, it did not turn into Deadwood. (nt)

[ananda]

77. You elected and then re-elected Walker!

Nuff said.

[eqfan592]

80. We also elected 3 socialist mayors in Milwaukee, something no other city can claim.

We also went with Pres. Obama in the 2008 election (something I had a personal hand in helping make happen).

So sorry, but "nuff said" my ass. Trying to hang the entirety of the political situation in a state on a single governor is idiotic in the extreme.

Also, note that one of the reasons Walker got elected was because of his position on concealed carry. This issue has done nothing but damage the democratic party both in Wisconsin and notionally, and we have absolutely nothing to show in return for it.

[SingleSeatBiggerMeat]

5. The Sad - Yet Funny - Aspect To This Is That.....

...they all imagine themselves as some lonesome, quiet Chuck Norris figure who -- at a moment's notice -- will be able to bag the potential killer in the midst of a crowded restaurant while nary spilling their coffee.

Then, they will quietly disappear into the foggy night with people whispering, "who was that man?"

What a joke.

And - shockingly - it is Oklahoma?!

[eqfan592]

36. You do understand that there's only one state in the nation where carry of some sort isn't legal?

So please, if you think that only hardcore republican tea-baggers carry, then you seriously have your head in the sand.

And for the record, I never once imagine myself as anything even remotely close to that idiot, Chuck Norris.

[Eleanors38]

64. Gun controllers get their edumacation from the cinema and T.V. Oaters

Uh, it's fiction. Watch too much and you might get -- what is it? Paranoid?

[BlueToTheBone]

6. Oklahoma drivers are the worst on all of I-40! Now they're loaded?

Holy Moly! I guess I won't be driving west again! I refuse to fly too...My circle is getting smaller.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. You did note that only those with CCW permits can now openly carry

Those same people were already carrying...

[darkangel218]

12. +1000

[LonePirate]

8. I do not understand the fear and false machismo that compels people to carry firearms

I could not imagine living my life that way.

[sadbear]

10. +1

Fear.

[darkangel218]

14. - 1

It's got nothing to do with fear.

[glacierbay]

19. You don't understand it because it has nothing to do with fear and false machismo

it's called taking responsibility for your own personal safety, the police aren't responsible for your personal safety unless you're in our custody, we're only responsible for the general public's safety.
I have no problem with CC or OC as long as a person is not prohibited by law and is qualified to do so.
Here are my states laws on CC permits,

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000101.HTM

[Paladin]

31. Why Don't You Complete That Notion?

If you're responsible for your own safety, and you fail to take measures to protect yourself---i.e., open-carrying a pistol or two or three---you're just asking for whatever misfortune which takes place, and you're essentially getting what you deserve. That's the logical conclusion of the Take Responsibility And Arm Up mantra which the gun militancy movement never tires of preaching, isn't it?

[eqfan592]

35. Oh what a load of bullshit.

That's like saying somebody who keeps a fire extinguisher in their house and/or car is asking for the misfortune of a fire.

I'm sorry, but the idea of logic is a completely foreign concept when it comes to you and this topic.

[uncle ray]

57. carrying a fire extinguisher around 24/7 would make more sense than a gun.

statistically you are more apt to be involved in a fire, than a incident needing a gun. yet you see no holstered fire extinguishers.

now, what was it you were saying about logic?

[eqfan592]

69. I've never once had to make use of a fire extinguisher.

Yet I have had reason to defend myself.

But even if that weren't the case, nothing you said calls into question my logic as you implied, unless you want to provide evidence that, statistically speaking, I am more likely to come to harm by legally carrying a firearm than am I by not.

[glacierbay]

39. It's not about carrying a gun

it's about protecting yourself, as in being aware of your surroundings, avoiding dangerous situations, de-escalating arguments. Things like that, but the point remains, we are not responsible for the individuals safety unless said individual is in our custody, we're responsible for the general public's safety, and if a qualified citizen wants to carry a gun, whether CC or OC, for their personal protection, then what is the issue? Here are MO. state laws for obtaining a CC, there pretty extensive and fair.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000101.HTM

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. Depends a lot on where you live

I live in the twigs...out past the sticks. I carry mostly in case of accident when I am riding to/from where I live.

[forestpath]

23. I don't either. I need a cell phone when I go out, not a gun.

[slackmaster]

53. The people I know who carry firearms do so because they have been robbed

Their jobs involve transporting large amounts of other peoples' money or valuables.

[MicaelS]

81. In other words you can't empathize with others.

Someone who for instance:

(1) Regularly carries large amounts of cash.

(2) Drive a taxicab.

(3) Delivers pizza or any food, especially at night.

(4) Works the evening or night shift, such that travel to and from work entirely at night.

(5) Lives in a small town, village or rural area where the only law enforcement is the county Sheriff and it takes 30 minutes to 1 hour for them to respond.

(6) A man is who older, or disabled and no longer capable of fistfights.

(7) Any woman who does not want to get raped.

There are others, but those will do for starters.

[darkangel218]

11. Oh nice!! i wish i lived there!

I would wear my leg holster :p how cool is that!!!

[sadbear]

13. I'd wear my assless chaps.

[darkangel218]

15. I dare you to.

[sadbear]

18. If I ever have the misfortune to be in Oklahoma,

I certainly will.

[Robb]

16. Wait. It's just the people who were already carrying concealed

guns?

So some of those people will start carrying in the open?

Other than identifying who has guns, I don't see the cause for any more alarm than was already warranted when they were carrying hidden guns.

What am I missing?

[glacierbay]

20. Because it's (gasp) guns. nt.

Seriously though, we've had this in MO. for years and it hasn't been a problem at all, criminals tend not to OC, that will usually get them a stint in the cross bar hotel.

[former-republican]

29. You are missing emotion . What you sir are doing is using logic.

Logic is something never to be used when discussing firearms with some people.

[eqfan592]

33. You hit the nail right on the head.

I still can't wrap my head around the knee-jerk, emotional response so many so-called progressives have when it comes to firearms. The amount of political capital we've wasted on this issue, and all for being on the wrong side of it as well, saddens me to no end.

[former-republican]

61. Yea you're seeing a lot of it in this thread

Not surprised




but I will overlook it since they do share our other views when it comes to most other political issues.

[eqfan592]

72. Oh big time. When it comes down to it, we all agree on a lot more than we disagree on here.

[april]

17. and really the question is Why?

[glacierbay]

21. Why not?

If they're already licensed to CC, why not OC?

[darkangel218]

25. exactly!! :)

[Aristus]

24. Jesus. I'm definitely staying away from that cesspool of ignorance and idiocy.

[Aristus]

52. I admit, it doesn't require intelligence to avoid a place where a verbal argument

can easily escalate into a deadly shootout; just common sense.

[Ikonoklast]

75. "I was in fear for my life, he stepped toward me in a threatening manner."

[eqfan592]

78. That's pretty much every place in the world at all times, as the reality is that even where firearms

are illegal, that doesn't stop criminals from having them. So I guess you never talk to anyone, ever then?

[former-republican]

26. I don't particularly like open carry of my handgun

I would rather have it concealed but some people like it and if the law says it's alright.
Who cares?

[ieoeja]

27. Open Carry is worse than Concealed Carry?

I am frankly shocked to learn they had concealed carry before open carry.

I remember when they passed concealed carry in Indiana. Suddenly there were people everywhere with guns on their hip. My dad and I mocked them mercilessly because open carry had never been illegal! After a couple of months the novelty wore off, and most people started leaving their guns at home.

This is one of those issues where I end up laughing at both sides.

Pros: people who believe they need to carry guns because they are paranoid and frightened.
Antis: people who are paranoid and frightened by people carrying guns.

[eqfan592]

30. You really think people who carry are paranoid and frightened?

Have you ever even bothered talking to some of them to find out?

Most people that carry, myself included, do so as purely a matter of precaution. Just because I carry a leatherman on me doesn't mean I'm paranoid of the possibility I may have to tighten a screw.

[eqfan592]

28. I'm sorry, but that is completely idiotic on your part. (nt)

[sinkingfeeling]

48. No, I'm very secure in my believe that people can be civilized.

[Jennicut]

34. If you did happen to be dealing with someone who wants to do you harm

wouldn't you want to be concealed? The element of surprise? I would rather be secretive and use it when necessary. Being open means anyone could go after your gun and try and grab it during a fight. Or go after you in a store if you are the one with the gun carrying it openly and there is a robbery. Makes you a bigger target.

Interesting topic.
http://debatepedia.idebate.org/en/index.php/Debate:_Concealed_carry_vs_open_carry_gun_laws

I am liberal from a blue state and have no problem with concealed carry gun laws. Not so sure about open carry.
I have a friend who is a state trooper and I wonder how he feels about this.

[eqfan592]

38. There are arguments that can be made for and against.

The counter to your argument would be that somebody who sees you clearly carrying a firearm is less likely to start troule with you in the first place.

I personally carry concealed, but I think it should be a matter of choice.

[Jennicut]

56. True. That is a good argument the other way.

I enjoy the debate. Not totally against open carry, just wonder how law enforcement feel about it.

My number one issue is gun safety, especially around teens and kids. I had a friend die in high school from playing with a gun. Didn't know it was loaded and shot himself in the head thinking it was empty. If you are going to have a gun in the house, be safe about it. Keep it locked up.

I think most people that carry guns know enough how to safely carry their guns.

[glacierbay]

65. From a 30 year veteran cop

I have no problem with either CC or OC, I'm not worried about the gun I can see, criminals generally don't OC, it's the gun I can't see carried by a criminal.

[eqfan592]

66. I couldn't agree more about gun safety.

I think it's important that if you are going to keep a firearm in a house with children in it, that you make sure that the children know as much as they can about firearm safety, and that you keep the firearms locked safely away at all times when not being used.

I think parents that own firearms do themselves and their children a disservice by not teaching their kids about firearms safety from a young age.

[sarisataka]

87. I don't know about your friend but,

I had an administrative dealing with the sheriff yesterday at my house. I had just returned home and removed the jersey I wear for CC but had not yet taken my pistol from the holster. The deputy noticed it but never said a word about me having it.

At no point did either of us openly armed males draw down on each other...

[slackmaster]

37. Hey sinkingfeeling, would you feel safer if they were wearing uniforms?

[sinkingfeeling]

43. Has nothing to do with safety.

[slackmaster]

45. OK, so it's all about emotion

[sinkingfeeling]

50. It's about whether you believe in humanity and seek a civilized, peaceful world. I

refuse to live my life afraid of others.

[slackmaster]

55. You refuse to live your life afraid of others, but now you are afraid to go to Tulsa...

...because a few people who aren't wearing uniforms will be carrying guns openly.

Yeah, that makes sense.

[sinkingfeeling]

60. Not afraid to go to Tulsa, just want to keep my dollars in a place that doesn't

have a bunch of people seeking to intimidate others. There's many other reasons why I dislike the state of Oklahoma.

P.S. If I'm so afraid, then why am I going to the Middle East in 15 days?

[eqfan592]

63. So what you're saying is that there is only one state in the US you're willing to spend money.

Because there's only one state in the US that doesn't have either open or concealed carry.

[slackmaster]

67. Of course there are no people in the Middle East who seek to intimidate others

P.S. If I'm so afraid, then why am I going to the Middle East in 15 days?

Maybe you're not really afraid, but your actions are not logically consistent.

[sinkingfeeling]

70. I have every right in the world to boycott a place I disagree with. Oklahoma and Texas

are two states I try to avoid.

[slackmaster]

74. If you were really sincere in that position, you would spend the rest of your life in Illinois

The only state that has neither concealed nor open carry (with exceptions for government employees, of course.)

BTW, most countries in the Middle East are officially Muslim. Do you not disagree with the way women and LGBT people are treated in Muslim countries? Why would you spend money there?

[NCTraveler]

85. It is amazing to me that they will boycott Tulsa.....

yet go to the ME.

[eqfan592]

59. It has nothing to do with fear of others.

And I fully believe in humanity and am always seeking to make our nation more civilized. But I'm also enough of a realist to know that bad things happen, and sometimes folks end up doing bad things to other people. In such an eventuality, I want to have at least a solid chance of protecting myself.

[sinkingfeeling]

68. That's your right under the Constitution. I just don't see a need for it. Been here 65

years and have never needed a gun to protect either myself, my property, nor my family.

[eqfan592]

76. Been here 32 years, and I have had a need, unfortunately.

But even if I didn't, I don't imagine I would accuse those who carry of living in a state of fear and paranoia. Taking basic precautions against seriously hazardous situations is not a sign of paranoia.

I'm not saying everybody needs to carry, I'm simply asking that people take a second to think about it before they go around accusing those who do carry of living in a state of fear and paranoia.

[former-republican]

86. I wish everyone in the world thought like you

and it would be a much better world .

But it's just not. I'm not going to get into my background but I have seen a lot of evil up close and personal.

If you choose never to have a firearm on your self or in your home that is a personal choice that I respect.

[CBGLuthier]

41. My plan is to laugh and point at them.

Beverley's is about 2 miles from my house but their food really sucks so I will have to wait until I encounter one of these insecure asswipes in person.

[sarisataka]

82. Who else do you go out of your way to incite a confrontation? n/t

[TwilightGardener]

46. That's fun. It's the Old West, podner!

I am not against keeping a gun at home (we have one ourselves). If you hear a doorknob rattle or glass breaking at night, you have a chance to mount a defense. I do think it's pointless to carry one wherever you go. Unless, of course, you are constantly primed to react to a threat and ready to draw your firearm. Who wants to live like that? The one time you might encounter someone who means to rob or kill you, you will most likely be distracted and not see it coming--the criminal is ready for trouble, you will not be. Personal experience talking here.

[glacierbay]

58. There are hundreds of incidents of a criminal getting the drop on a citizen

with a CC permit and the criminal is the one getting shot and wounded or killed, just google defensive firearm uses, youtube has dozens of them.
A gun is not a magic talisman, it's just a tool that gives the law abiding citizen a fighting chance if it ever came down to a life or death situation.

[TwilightGardener]

73. My husband was in an armed robbery--his back was turned, and

didn't see the robbers enter the place of business. He heard commotion, turned around and saw a ski-masked man with a gun pointed at his face, and was commanded to lie face down with his hands above his head. If he'd had a weapon visible, they most likely would have taken it. If he'd had reached for it...they would have shot him. They took money from the safe and left. It really doesn't do you much good to go through the effort of taking with you every day, because you will not be ready, OR you will escalate the situation. I do think if you are hiking or are otherwise in an isolated area, a firearm isn't a bad idea, since anyone who means to cause you trouble is probably a complete psycho and not a meth tweaker who just needs some fast cash...but beyond that, I doubt it's an effective habit.

[eqfan592]

83. I'm glad your husband is OK, but your argument is flawed horribly.

"It really doesn't do you much good to go through the effort of taking with you every day, because you will not be ready..."

That simply isn't true in far to many cases. One of the things that people who carry tend to do that others to not is maintain a higher level of situational awareness, making it less likely for somebody to "get the drop" on them, and making them prepared to defend themselves should the need arise. And people do successfully defend themselves (and others sometimes) while legally carrying on a regular basis.

[txdemsftw]

51. Eh..

I personally wouldn't carry unconcealed, but I don't have a problem with those who do so under the law.

My husband and I both have guns that we keep at home (locked in a safe), but don't carry.

[madokie]

62. I'd rather know who's carrying as not know

People with a gun in their pocket or where ever I can't see worries me Way more than someone with it out in the open.
For the record I don't trust people who think they must carry a weapon on them when in public, period.

[glacierbay]

71. How do you know if someone is carrying

if it's concealed? And why would you worry about someone OCing? Criminals as a whole don't OC, that will usually get our attention and earn the person a trip to the cross bar hotel.

[NCTraveler]

79. This is legal in Salt Lake City.

The fact that this exists in other places and they are not full of people openly carrying completely disproves your headline.

[ileus]

84. OC has it's place, hiking, fishing, hunting; outdoors type activities.

I OC some when hiking, fishing, hunting. Some bike (pedal) and jeep rides.

However.com out in public OCer's are bullied and intimidated by people giving them the stink eye.

Most of the time I keep my safety device concealed.

[REP]

88. Locking

Please repost in GC & RBKA. Thanks!