Bill Mahar on Friday

[Norbert]

I know sometimes he can get on peoples nerves but Friday he did get one thing right which is a problem for Democrats and progressives. He ran a bunch of GOP commercials with the candidates saying they are so conservative, they are the real conservative yadda yadda. He went on to say "You never hear anyone bragging about being a liberal." He went on to say. "Democrats might want to think about what that means. Because the implication is you are embarrassed about what liberalism has become...and it's a shame because, despite their nonsense, it is still generally, generally a better product. But what does it say about your brand if you don't want to say what you are?"

I will say I think sometimes identity politics goes a little too fat sometimes but he does have a point. And it the same thing with Democrats campaigning for office but keeping the president at arms length. In the past Democrats campaigned for office while making sure Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama, both highly successful presidents, from campaigning for them. Why? The only reason I can see is we are still after all these years letting the GOP control the message and we need to put constraint on out campaigning because the 'prevailing thought' is it better to campaign that way.

We need to wake up. We have the other side campaigning while shooting things with guns they don't like. It shouldn't be hard to make our side look better.

[TreasonousBastard]

1. Well, we are always acting terrified of being accused of being liberal. It's like there's something

wrong with that.

[HAB911]

2. Have to say it was one of his best shows

and when I saw the panel, I didn't expect that.

I'M A LIBERAL

[localroger]

23. I have to admit I was ready to dislike Shellenberger

...based on Bill's intro, but then I found myself agreeing with almost everything he said.

[Sympthsical]

31. When they were discussing homelessness

I was like, "Yep. Exactly."

And I never really noticed how much our approach to drugs had gotten so goofy. When they started showing and discussing those ads, I almost couldn't believe it. Almost.

[kentuck]

33. Those ads were eye-opening, for sure.

It's hard to see how anyone could take those seriously, but I guess some do?

They have lost touch with all reality.

[Sympthsical]

42. As a Bay Arean, I wasn't that shocked

We spend so much money on drugs and homelessness, way more than most metropolitan areas, and we have little to show for it. Empathy is a good trait to have, but there is a point where empathy becomes indulgence, and we passed that at some point.

Since I moved farther from the city and with Covid, I've barely taken public transportation. But even before then, some of the posters you'd see on BART or whatever were some shit. I'd be sitting there thinking, "Ok, I'm as liberal as they come, but I'm not that liberal."

And I agreed with them about homeless encampments. Until somewhat recently, there were parts of Berkeley that looked like a bomb went off. You'd be wondering if you were in an American city or Sarajevo in the mid-90s.

We can't be ok with that state of affairs, but we somehow became inured to it.

[Walleye]

3. It's our Calvinist Puritan background. Conservative sounds moral liberal sounds like loose morality

Unfortunately conservatives aren’t really interested in conserving anything it seems except their own power. Also liberal is for girls conservative is for big grown men. I really think that masculine values are elevated

[PatSeg]

27. And today's self-described "conservatives"

are not really conservative at all. Most of them are radical extremists who have hijacked the tag "conservative".

[Walleye]

28. Seems like they have hijacked the whole English language. Don't know what we can do

[kentuck]

29. I think there is room for better communication.

No matter what people may think of today's Democratic Party, we have not sold out the country. We do not plan on having any major Party events in Hungary.

We have not attacked our Capitol.

We have respected the transfer of power, however much we may have detested it.

We may defend the rights of people with unpopular positions, but we do not defend criminals in the White House.

Whatever flaws are within the Demcratic Party, they pale in comparison to the present unpatriotic, undemocratic Republican fascist Party.

We need to draw that type of comparison for people, in my opinion.

[Walleye]

30. If only we could. We need Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger, something

[PatSeg]

36. Yes, well said

[PatSeg]

34. That is true

They can't govern for shit, but they are masters of gaslighting and deception. The republican party reminds me of the inept and abusive spouse who is inclined to destroy everything he professes to hold dear.

Sometimes they put so much effort into deceit, it seems that honesty would be a lot easier. Though of course in their case, honesty would be, "I have no ideas, no policies, and no desire to serve anyone but myself". I hear that doesn't poll very well!

[Walleye]

37. Abusive spouse is a good description. Their tactics seem related to toxic masculinity

[PatSeg]

45. Yes, sometimes as I watch and listen

to them, I get a feeling of deja vu - I've seen and heard this movie before. Evidently classic tactics that have worked for an awfully long time, so why change. They are also seen in the schoolyard. A lot of those bullies grew up to become republicans apparently. Never original and always predictable.

[kentuck]

38. They have perfected their propaganda...

...at the same time as they no longer have a Party platform. They feel no need to do anything for the American people or for the country, they only need to deceive and propagandize to maintain power.

[PatSeg]

47. Yes, they are classic carnival barkers

They don't actually do or create anything, they are always campaigning. They are often such obvious con artists, I am amazed that more people don't see through them. It is not that they are necessarily good at what they do, it is that people evidently want to be conned - essentially, they are presold.

[NCLefty]

4. It's so hard trying to care about people without lying to them.. *single tear rolls down cheek*

Conservatives cheat. It's their superpower. 😛

[kentuck]

5. Perception is reality.

In this case, especially so.

Conservatives say crazy shit. Liberals say silly, crazy shit.

For example, "let's tear down the statue of Thomas Jefferson". That is not going to win you a lot of elections.

"Liberal" has reached a point where it needs to be re-defined.

If you cannot beat this insane bunch of Republicans, you have a big problem with your brand.

[betsuni]

7. "If you cannot beat this insane bunch of Republicans, you have a big problem with your brand."

What does this mean?

[kentuck]

8. It means...

exactly what it says?

What did you think it meant?

[betsuni]

11. Why blame Democrats? People don't vote for Republicans because Democrats are bad.

[kentuck]

13. I would not say "Democrats are bad"...

Perhaps naive and stupid sometimes, but not "bad".

Why aren't more Republicans coming over to the Democratic side? Some would rather die than be associated with a "liberal".

[sop]

21. Republicans have spent billion$ over the last four or five decades vilifying the word "liberal."

Just like "commie pinko" was the lowest form of life back in the '50s and '60s, "liberal" is now shorthand for anti-Americanism, godlessness and even pedophilia. Republicans now own the word because we let them buy it.

[kentuck]

26. "we let them buy it"...

We did not have an effective response. I guess we are back to the old messaging excuse.

I always thought about why "liberal media" is perceived in a very negative way by the majority of Americans? If the "liberal media" is so strong and powerful, then why are their opponents able to portray them in such a negative manner? It doesn't compute.

[sop]

39. Corporate donors fund hundreds of GOP "think tanks" devoted exclusively to crafting pejorative

terms for Democrats. They've even turned our party's name into an object of ridicule: "the Democrat party."

Republican paid talking heads spit out the word "liberal" with such vehemence one would think they're talking about child molesters. And these days they literally are calling Democrats "groomers" and "pedophiles."

Words like "unions," "feminism," "justice," "society" and many, many others have been similarly Luntzified. ("Luntzification" is an actual term, for words or phrases being repurposed for nefarious and/or political intent through thought manipulation.)

As Juba observed in the film Gladiator: “You have a great name. He must kill your name before he can kill you.”

[betsuni]

24. Bad at messaging, flawed candidates (bad), not being able to get enough votes to pass their

agenda because of a mythical bully pulpit and not fighting (bad), incrementalism (bad), allowing/not stopping Republicans from doing bad things, wanting to regulate capitalism instead of getting rid of it (bad), encouraging bipartisanship to get policies passed (bad), the idea that money is the source of all dysfunction in society and politics and "identity politics" is a distraction (bad), Democrats are bribed and rig elections (bad).

Democrats are accused of bad things constantly.

Why would Republicans not voting for Democrats because of radical propaganda demonizing them be Democrat's fault?

[thesquanderer]

20. re: "tear down the statue of Thomas Jefferson"...is not going to win you a lot of elections

Nor "defund the police."

But also, the right has media outlets (talk radio, Fox, Brietbart, the New York Post, etc.) that are very good at capitalizing on these things, and an audience that is primed to eat it up.

[kentuck]

22. You are right.

Democrats are not very good at communicating that these are not the viewpoints of the majority of Democrats. We are too quick to jump on the bandwagon to defend every position.

[Ferrets are Cool]

6. This seems to be very true. Down here in Alabama, there are literally thousands of political signs

on the streets. ALL of the repugs proudly indicate their big ole fat elephant. NONE of the signs have donkeys or D's on them. It's like we are ashamed of being Democrats or liberals.

[betsuni]

9. "Democrats and progressives." The Democratic Party is the progressive party.

Republicans are pretending to be conservatives because they're radical nut jobs, trying to rebrand. Nothing conservative about them.

Democrats are attacked from all sides for being liberals: radical socialists or corrupt establishment neoliberals who aren't progressive and the true roadblock to progress.

[Paladin]

10. "generally a better product."

Thanks for nothing, Maher.

[ancianita]

12. I've heard pro-liberal arguments all the time. Starting with Lawrence O'Donnell. I never hear

conservatives proudly claim that they "conserved" or stopped what liberals ended.

[Icanthinkformyself]

14. It's, again, the messaging failure

that is a well known Democratic/Liberal 'defect'. It's all we hear when it comes to 'what do Democrats stand for?' Could it be we don't like to brag as opposed to conservatives, who toot their own horn, think themselves superior to everyone else and believe they should rule the country. It's the liberal aspects of America that draw new people and ideas, not the tight sphinctered conservatives sourness and disdain for all that is for the wider good.

[Farmer-Rick]

15. A little late to the party

What Bill describes happened years ago. That's why we have that label "progressive". It was a way to say you are liberal without using the L word. GOPers have been using the word "liberal" like an insult even in JFK's time. Look up what he told the GOP about being a liberal.

But yeah, running away from the word liberal has been the Democrats go to response when the L word is thrown around.

But the weird thing here in rural GOP world in my part of TN, you can't tell who is a GOPer or a Democrat from signs and roadside advertising all over the place. Actually almost all the signs look like Democratic signs. A lot of blue and white no elephant logo, very little red. It's like the GOPers are pretending to be Dems. It has been this way ever since Obama won his first election.

The GOPers aren't really all that proud of their Russian party.

[kentuck]

16. It's gotten to the point where...

Democrats have to persuade voters that they are still better than the Republicans, even with all our faults. We are an inclusive Party. We don't always represent the majority viewpoint. But, we represent what the Constitution and America should stand for in an ideal sense.

[thesquanderer]

17. "I'm the most conservative" gets you the xenophobic, frightened, aggrieved. "I'm the most liberal...

...gets you almost nobody. Because liberals don't use xenophobia, fear and resentment as motivators, and there's nothing comparable to substitute.

Related, to some extent, "conservative" appeals to the simple-minded. Thinking people are not so easily persuaded by labels, so there is no counter label that would work.

[WiVoter]

32. And When Was The Last Time We Heard The Words

“Compassionate Conservative”? Liberals have always showed compassion, not conservatives. Even the word conservative is not unique to one party.

[NanceGreggs]

18. Saw the segment ...

... and totally disagree with his analysis/conclusion.

A politician identifying himself by a "label" appeals to voters who tend not to look beyond it. Saying "I'm a conservative" translates as "if you're also a conservative, we are the same - so it is obvious you should vote for me."

It only speaks to the "label" - it does not address issues or policies, but encourages the voter not to feel a need to look into those things any further. The message is simply "vote for me because I wear a label you identify with - so details about my political position are basically irrelevant."

This works well with Republican voters, who tend to be ill-informed and not terribly interested in anything beyond what label a politician wears.

Democrats and Democrat-leaning voters tend to be better-informed and far more interested in the details. They want to know who a candidate really is, what they stand for, what their past record is - and, in particular, what their agenda will be once elected.

Saying "I'm a liberal" just doesn't cut it for voters who recognize who a liberal is by what they actually DO, and not by a label they affix to themselves - especially one that sounds more like a simple-minded bumper-sticker than a substantive resume of ideas and ideals.

It's not unlike politicians who label themselves as "good Christians". If you really ARE a good Christian, you don't have to advertise it - your actions will speak for themselves.

For Republican voters, the "I'm a Conservative" label is the same as "One size fits all".

[Alpeduez21]

19. I agree that dems should act more proud and out loud

We could also redefine conservatives. Conservatives want your children shot. Conservatives want to raise your taxes. Conservatives don’t want you to have healthcare. A good paying job. Affordable gas. Etc etc.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

25. OTOH, I've found it's rarer to see a republican SAY he's a republican in his advertising.

Around these parts, anyway. I just began to notice this the last few years-- particularly with yard signs and mailings. It's not an absolute rule but Democrats are much more likely to state they're Democrats while Republicans avoid mentioning party. Repubs even play footsie with the traditional party colors.
But yeah, they do like to claim the conservative thing and toss "liberal" around like it's synonymous with pedophile or godless commie.
Maybe it's just a northeastern Illinois phenomenon.

[mopinko]

50. can confirm.

in '18, when i worked my sister's race, we had this convo. NONE of the thug candidates had it on their signs. pretty much all the dems did.

i think this is partly an artifact of the area which has been so solid red.

[Lonestarblue]

35. The media and the Republican Party have defined liberalism and Democrats to our detriment.

The Republican Party leaders accused the mainstream media of being biased against conservatives decades ago, and they have tried so hard to appear unbiased that they created the “both sides do it” mentality that has become active support or at least acquiescence for Republican lies and policies. Just last week, I heard an NOR host describe Mother Jones as a far-left journal, which would immediately bias a conservative listener to not believe what was being reported. Mother Jones is left of center because of the stories it chooses to report, but its factual factual accuracy is high. By using the term”far left” that host delegitimized the story. In interviews like this, I’ve never heard a host use far right or radical right. It’s always conservative, so the media has juxtaposed conservative, a more positive term, against far left, which has negative connotations for many people because they equate far left with radical while conservative is cautious and not radical.

All that is to say that Democrats need to do a better job of fighting back, an I think social media is one option. Democrats cannot get their message out through Republican-controlled mainstream media. They need to look at other options. And they need to start defining their ideas better. Is it truly radical to want every American to have access to affordable healthcare? No. Too many people think that if you work, you get health insurance, yet less than 50% of workers today work for companies that provide access as a benefit. Is it radical to want lower drug prices similar to those the same companies charge in other countries? No.

Democrats need to stop allowing their policies to be described as radical when they are not. We need a blitz of information throughout the country, but it isn’t happening. I’m sorry to say this, and I’m certainly not blaming him alone, but Jaime Harrison has been a huge disappointment at the DNC. He has no public presence.

[Sympthsical]

40. We compartmentalized ourselves, which is a problem

As I watched his commentary on this, I kept thinking, "It works, because conservatives generally have a unified identity that can be appealed to." Guns or religion or immigration or just hating whatever it is the Left is doing this week. It's fairly simple and straightforward. Conservatives I know who aren't say, particularly religious or gun owners, overlook it, because they're on board with the basic foundational things of conservatism. And a lot of the time, conservative just means, "Not what the Left is doing."

Which, hey, we have people in our own party who spend all day hating on whatever the Left is doing. So, what to do about that.

The Democratic Party, for good or ill (I tend to think ill), has wholly embraced identity politics over time. It's all about who we are instead of what we think, and we have become more granularly compartmentalized over time. Our ideology diced all of us up, and our politicians now have to somehow cater to everything, everywhere, all at once. I'm not just a Democratic voter. I'm a gay, white, suburban male worried about climate change, the electric grid, economic and social justice, student loans, the cost of health care, and housing costs. (using myself as an example so as to not call anyone out).

Now check all those boxes, or I'm coming for you, you homophobic, racist, rural, climate denier who probably burns coal! Hold on. Let me get my twitter so I can let everyone who isn't me have it.

Before anyone thinks this is an endorsement of, "The Party Before All," or a denunciation of "purity politics" - it's not. (Purity tends to be used as a dismissal of just about any issue. If they never matter because there's always an election coming, how do they matter at all?) I think that thinking has 1). Wrecked us at the polls almost my entire life absent a once in a generation politician in President Obama, and 2). Been used as an excuse to allow our own politicians to do as little as possible with as little accountability as possible, thus leading to a cycle of apathy and disenchantment. Look at New York state and that climate initiative that failed under a Democratic supermajority.

But how many times do you see any issue at all, and the answer or rationale of the person's opinion is, "As a Democrat" or "As a liberal." It's not too often. It's always, "As a gay man. As a woman. As a minority. As a victim of . . ."

The identity is more important than the idea. And the idea can't be criticized, because then it's met with a dishonest invocation of the identity. "If you don't like this idea, it's because you're racist." Ok, but what if I'm not racist? What if it's just a really bad idea?

But the ship has sailed, because we operate within an ideology that ordains that ideas and identities are the same things.

So our politicians don't have much unifying to appeal to. There's no lowest common denominators. There are plenty of low ones, but there aren't many common ones. Our politicians have to check too many boxes.

I don't see this getting any better. This, "It's all about me and what I am," strain of politics is getting worse over time. Millennials and Zoomers absolutely embrace this identity stuff to a more radical degree. And I can say that as a Millennial. Most of my peers don't identify as liberal or Democrat. They will sometimes identify as progressive, and when doing so usually they're discussing policy concers outside of identity. Climate change. Economic justice. Corporate control. Otherwise, it's all about their identity.

But as long as we're separating ourselves and chopping ourselves up into smaller and smaller identity squares, we make it impossible to have a unified party in the way Republicans do. Yes, the Big Tent is a good thing, but if it's a tent full of cubicles where people are solely worried about what's going on in their corner and no one else, it's not going to be a functional tent.

There's going to have to be a point where we get over ourselves a bit.

[Tomconroy]

46. A couple of weeks ago Bill Maher had a pithy line: Democrats used to be

the party of the factory floor. Now they are the party of the faculty lounge.
So we lost one of the basic components of the FDR coalition.

[Sympthsical]

48. I'm ambivalent about academia on account

Not in an anti-intellectual way (though I do think a lot of what goes on these days is a lot of circular pseudo-intellectual masturbation, particularly in the social sciences. "We disappear up our own assholes, but we do it intellectually!" )

The problem is that it's a largely a bubbled environment of epistemic closure, and only a very narrow band of ideas or thinking are entertained. To compound this, many of these ideas cannot be written on human skin or applied to a real, practical world where human nature must be taken into consideration on a macro scale.

So what works in an academic setting has nearly zero bearing on the real world or how average people act or think. It's all masturbatory. However, our media and cultural elite seize these ideologies or ideas and then try to push them on everyone else.

People really don't like that.

It's one of the forces at work in the CRT debate. I know many people on our side want to say, "Oh, they're just racists." There's some of that, but it's not that. It's the idea that some edict came from above and is being forced down onto them and their children. There is an impulsive, reactive, visceral, "No!" that will be spoken to it. CRT could be the best thing in the world, but that "No!" will result when it's imposed from above in this way. And no amount of, "Agree with this or you're racist," is going to magically undo that kind of reflexive resistance.

People aren't that complicated if you spend time actually listening to them instead of assuming what they're saying and all the bad motives implicit therein. But we don't listen too much. Feels like, more and more, all we do is assume motives and condemn. Which is fine.

But it doesn't make for winning allies.

[Tomconroy]

49. Agreed.

[jcgoldie]

41. The GOP is a fucking cult

The way you appeal to cultists is to emphasize how deep in the cult you are. It does not reflect poorly on liberalism that we do not share that characteristic. Oh and fuck Bill Maher…

[Trueblue Texan]

43. I've been publicly declaring...

...that I'm a proud LIBERAL Democrat for several decades now. I am not ashamed of what liberalism has become, but I am fully aware of the way liberalism has been characterized by the media. When I tell my Republican friends I am a liberal they're always terribly confused: "...but...but...you're not crazy?! How can you be a liberal?" That's a typical response. I've had them say, "Oh, you're not a liberal, you just think you are." Same sort of response when I tell them I'm a Democrat. I always tell them they need to look up the word in the dictionary and not allow media to define it for them. They will learn they've been lied to and the characterization applied to liberals by the media has nothing to do with what the term actually means. Most of them walk away puzzled, but I'm sure they never bother looking the word up in the dictionary.

I will agree we absolutely need some help in messaging, but I don't like the admonition that we "wake up." We ARE awake. At least nearly everyone here is. But I understand what you mean. We need to DO something that WORKS to disarm the misinformation about Democrats and liberals in general. But it's going to take a lot more than a few of us declaring we are proud to be liberals. Fortunately, some of the messaging experts that helped to build the right wing machine has crossed over to our side and more of these are making appearances in media outlets that have a better record of delivering accurate news. Will there be enough of it in time to make a difference in November? I hope, but I don't know.

[Joinfortmill]

44. I hear you, but...

what exactly does "conservative" mean? I think it's a buzzword for a racist, pro-life, anti-abortion, pro-gun agenda. So, I guess a democratic candidate could run on an agenda of inclusion of the DEMOCRATIC rights of all Americans, including: Minority rights, voting rights, women's healthcare rights, public education rights, union rights, fair housing rights, and a ton of others.

Republicans are about EXCLUDING people. Democrats are about INCLUDING people.

But what do I know. I'm just one old lady.

[gulliver]

51. Call Republican politicians liars. Tamp down and dismiss left-wing self-elected zealots.

Co-opt everything good the Republican Party claims to stand for. Keep all of our own good stuff.

Don't overthink it. We do the above four things and the word "liberal" means something good again. And we win.