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H2O Man

(73,694 posts)
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 03:25 PM Jun 2022

Guns

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
-- Amendment 1


A good friend stopped by to see me yesterday. Like every good and decent American, he is horrified by the mass-shootings that are taking place these days. As a gun owner, he is 100% in favor of outlawing military-grade assault guns for civilians. A person he is friends with had argued they must remain legal, pointing out that the military in Ukraine is using them to defend against the Russian invasion. My friend asked me how anyone could be so stupid?

In my opinion, the only way to have a semi-reasonable discussion with people that stupid -- and they are legion -- is to ask if they think Amendment 2 is intended to protect the "rights" of the human shit-stains that murdered so many innocent people in Buffalo and in the Texas school? Even stupid people seem to be able to grasp the implications, though they generally lack the intellectual ability to take it a step further.

It is more important, in my opinion, to be able to discuss gun control legislation with intelligent people who have concerns about restrictions on Amendment 2. This is not to say that all of their concerns are legitimate. For example, some are concerned by those who speak of getting rid of Amendment 2 and all guns. This is not a serious concern, of course, because there is at most zero chance of it happening. It is as meaningless as those who advocate for no restrictions.

In order to have serious discussions, it is important to study the history of Amendment 2, including the thinking of legal scholars as well as constitutional law (what the Supreme Court has ruled). This, of course, requires an open mind, and the willingness to listen to the opinions of those who disagree with you.

There is a book I recommend, titled, "The Bill of Rights: Original Meaning and Current Understanding," edited by Eugene Hickok, Jr. Though published in 1991 by the University of Virginia Press, it is still of great value when considering addressing the sickening amount of mass-shootings happening daily in our country. It contains contributions from various points of view on each of the Bill of Rights.

Likewise, it is good to be able to speak about Supreme Court decisions on Amendment 1, I think, in order to show that there are restrictions on what it protects and what it does not protect. This allows one to go beyond the old "you can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theater" example. The one that I like to use involved Dr. King leading a march in Birmingham in 1963. A state court judge had ordered King and his followers not to march on a specific date, until the planned march was approved by the city.

King decided the march at that time was too important, and knowingly violated the state court's order. Eventually, the case reached the US Supreme Court, as Walker v City of Birmingham, and in 1967, the USSC ruled against King and his followers. Part of their decision stated that "respect for judicial process is a small price to pay for the civilizing hand of law." And I think that line can be applied by those advocating for gun control legislation.

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SYFROYH

(34,186 posts)
1. For the purpose of discussion let me ask, does the Bill of Rights apply to human shit stains before
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 03:34 PM
Jun 2022

before they have committed a crime (or some other adjudication) that disqualifies them from being able to observe some of their rights?

H2O Man

(73,694 posts)
2. Let's take
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 03:41 PM
Jun 2022

the guy from Conklin who murdered ten people in Buffalo. Eleven months before, there had been an intervention when he made threats at his school. I would think that is enough to have prevented him from buying military grade weapons. But that is just me. You might think differently.

SYFROYH

(34,186 posts)
3. Right, threats at his school could be illegal activity that could have been prosecuted...
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 03:45 PM
Jun 2022

...or perhaps a lower hurdle of red flag laws for temporary suspension of his RKBA which is some type of due process/ajudication.

But you didn't answer my question. When does the Bill of Rights stop applying?

Timewas

(2,200 posts)
4. Under Martial LAw
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 04:15 PM
Jun 2022

As far as I can see, that is the main one.... All rights apply to all of us, the need for much better control of weapon sales and what can be sold to whom and when, for starters a universal deep background check,then a minimum of 10 days at least waiting period would be a good start.Add red flag laws that do not allow for harassment...



These steps do not in any way infringe on anyone's rights

H2O Man

(73,694 posts)
7. Sure I did.
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 04:57 PM
Jun 2022

Exactly as I stated, when that guy threatened the school, Amendment 2 should not be taken for "protecting" his right to buy the weapon he did. I'm not sure how to make that any clearer to you. Note that I did not say for a lifetime, but certainly for a significant time.

It could have been prosecuted as a crime, but was not. Because I am more familiar with details not fully reported in the news, I'll say this: I know the hospital he was sent to last June. Due to covid, they have released other individuals who have made threats against other public buildings -- including one I used to work at before retiring -- in less than 24 hours. I think this guy was held for just over 24 hours. If he was not from a middle class family, it is more likely he would have been charged. However, his family could have hired an attorney, and got a deal to plea to a reduced charge, or had the charges dropped. Our legal system is imperfect.

For another example, the guy who went on the rampage in the Texas school was 18. There are discussions about if anyone under 21 should be able to buy a military-grade weapon. If a law were to be passed, there will be some who argue that it denies people 18 to just under 21 their rights. I'm guessing that you are possibly among them. However, they are simply wrong, for exactly as I noted, the Bill of Rights can have restrictions.

Buffalo County is attempting a new program that combines police, schools, and mental health experts, to identify those who are deemed to pose the greatest potential threat to public safety. I'm not suggesting this is a perfect solution. Obviously someone from Broome County can drive to Buffalo and murder people as the law now stands. But identifying those with a combination of Clusters A and B personality disorders who are under the age of 21, and not allowing them to buy semi- and automatic weapons would be a good start.

SYFROYH

(34,186 posts)
14. I'm not arguing against red flag laws or prosecuting threats which would lead to forfitting firearms
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 05:04 PM
Jun 2022


I think we agree that some rights of human shit stains can be suspended when they commit actions that warrant such a consequence.


pwb

(11,314 posts)
9. We all have that Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness thing
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 04:58 PM
Jun 2022

in the Declaration Of Independence going for us too. Does one right top another? In this case yes.

pwb

(11,314 posts)
15. Children killed had the right to live
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 05:09 PM
Jun 2022

and pursue happiness taken from them. These were all Lawful possessions as you call them and they lead to mass murder.

SYFROYH

(34,186 posts)
16. Of course, no one is denying that they (and we all) have a right to live
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 05:16 PM
Jun 2022

Possession of something than can be used to kill is not the same thing as denying someone the right to live.

Pyryck

(99 posts)
17. The Declaration of Independence IS NOT the US Constitution
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 05:20 PM
Jun 2022

The laws of this land are based in the US Constitution and NOT in the Declaration of Independence. From what I've read of the Constitution, it does not specifically mention the "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

[link:https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript|

I may be wrong as I am NOT a scholar by any means, nor am I a lawyer. But I'm still looking around in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the rest of the Amendments for any hint at the "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

I don't think I can access or even understand the enormity of published volumes of legal precedent from the last 246 years. I've seen some of those collections of volumes from over the years doing IT work and it is mind-boggling.

pwb

(11,314 posts)
18. I never said it was in the Constitution. Our forefathers
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 05:38 PM
Jun 2022

said it is our unalienable right. You can dismiss that if you want. I still count it.

3Hotdogs

(12,463 posts)
19. The only parallel I can think of is that of the court ruling against prior restraint in the Pentagon
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 05:44 PM
Jun 2022

Papers. The Nixon administration had to allow the papers to be published and then prosecute for harm (if any) that had resulted. If the parallel is to be pursued, the shit stains must be allowed to have their guns and then prosecute for harm (if any) that results..

Red Flag laws would be unconstitutional.

kairos12

(12,901 posts)
5. Mine is way simpler.
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 04:46 PM
Jun 2022

I ask them if they are in favor having personal, tactical nuclear weapons. Of course not they say.

So you(gun nut) do draw line and restrict weapons. I just draw mine in a different place.

3Hotdogs

(12,463 posts)
20. ".. domestic tranquility... provide for the general welfare..."
Wed Jun 8, 2022, 05:49 PM
Jun 2022

These might be used to justify restraint.

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